GOODBYE 3421 & 3430 FM17.3.`Knap tested with Spurs

[knap]

Closest fit. Not at home atm, so cannot check if a SS set up is viable. 3421 would be a stronger option.

[grff]

Been using this with great success in Gibraltar and the lower English leagues. However, I'm continually getting fined for excessive yellow cards.

Has anyone got any feedback on it's effectiveness if removing the "tackle harder" instructions?

Edited June 22, 2017 by grff

[knap]

Season with Ebbsfleet and card count is not that high, there was probably a game with many cards leading to a fine.

[grff]

Cheers for the quick reply, @knap

I've played 43 games in the Championship so far and racked up 115 yellows and had four separate fines.

Interestingly, there are 8 teams in the division on my save that have over 75 yellow cards, compared to your screenshot of NLS stats.

Also the worst discipline for the last 3 seasons. Seems weird.

 

[knap]

Are you near top or bottom of league? Any particular players? Have you checked hidden dirtiness attribute (~need genie)?

[knap]

Tackle harder removed

 

¬!FM17.3.1GOODBYE3430THP102TACKP104_CED03413-4A88-499A-9D82-9F1658FF22EA.fmf

 

[grff]

I'm currently 3rd with finishes of 3rd and 9th in the previous two seasons.

I don't have genie but looking in FM real time editor shows the following spread....

Dirtiness    1  2  3  4  5  6  7  8  9  10  11  12  13  14  15  16  17  18  19  20
Players       0  0  0  0  1  3  3  5  4   1    2     0    2    1    1     0    0    0     0   0

EDIT - Just seen your posted tactic. I'll give that a go and see how it compares. Thanks for your help, KUTGW!!!

Edited June 22, 2017 by grff

[andycap]

21 hours ago, knap said:

Tackle harder removed

 

¬!FM17.3.1GOODBYE3430THP102TACKP104_CED03413-4A88-499A-9D82-9F1658FF22EA.fmf

 

could you make the standard version with tackle harder removed?

[knap]

I thought that was std. I would only change if it is a major issue. Waiting for MR L to do the longer tests.

[knap]

That is counter but std was not a wow so a risk to change.

[global]

3430 best tactic for FM17 so far. Thanks Knap.

[chrisrossi]

Started a season with Boston Utd and changed formation after 6 games to start using a modified version of the 3430. Less PI's and used normal defender rather than ball playing CBs.

First season conference north - 42 - 33 wins -5 draws (3 before change of tactic)  and 4 defeats

Conference - Played 41/46 so far - 35 wins - 1 draw - 5 defeats

out of the 9 league defeats I would say 5 have come as a result of a man sent off. I find the risky position to be Wingback with harder tackling. When this has happened taking a SS off and put a wing back in hasn't helped and I feel the system breaks down even when changing to cotain as well.

The only real changes in games that I make are sometimes shouts to demand more or concentrate if other team gets a goal or 2 when we are 5 up and I sometimes change to contain when the game is not going the way I had hoped or 2 or 3 goals up.

For me this tactic is pretty much as good as you are going to get in terms of plug and play and not relying on ones ability to make tactical changes.

Thanks Knapp 

[knap]

If you have a man sent off it is best to change to a SUS tactic.

[bladesadviser]

Started using this half way through the season and won promotion from Conf South with Truro City through the play offs. Didn't have any quality players of note and of course no money.  Be interesting to see how I do with basically the same squad in Conference National

I even struggle to to get loan players as the parent clubs want them to play with higher quality players then loan them to a Conf South or North!!

[knap]

Just looking at a very difficult away game and used this tactic which gives more control over middle of park and puts pressure on AI defence. Tested with Southampton so perhaps better playing the top dog teams.

¬FM17.3.1RAWSIENNAKnaps352Southamptonp84_295FB31C-C2A4-4936-BBE8-68803D261DE4.fmf

[knap]

AM Version

¬!FM17.3.1GOODBYE3430THP102AMP102_2576CF82-778B-49FD-9B16-5E9D3F294437.fmf

 

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by knap

[knap]

AM F9 Version

¬!FM17.3.1GOODBYE3430THP102AMP102F9P101_625C1B95-3B4A-449D-BE92-D709CDF3E8F0.fmf

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by knap

[knap]

DLF Version

¬!FM17.3.1GOODBYE3430THP102AMP102DLFP100_9B5C817E-4CA7-42E8-A2E0-EA9079FAA070.fmf

 

Edited July 6, 2017 by knap

[SavoNFFC]

Been using the strikerless 3-4-3 formation with my Forest Green side for a season now and we're top of the league in April after 33 games with 95 points. Haven't actually lost a game in any competition yet this season so we won the Community Shield (won FA Cup last year), we're in the final of the FA Cup, semis of the Champions League and won the League Cup.

Beat Barcelona 13-1 on aggregate in the Second Round too....5-0 at the Nou Camp then 8-1 at the 12,500 capacity New Lawn.

Edited July 11, 2017 by SavoNFFC

[jusinho9]

@knap

1. What would you say are good PPMs for players in GOODBYE and WOF?

-

2. Would you argee that the BWM is better fullfield by a BBM- type of player, at least for good teams? I had Vidal in the BWM role last season, together with the PPM: Gets forward whenever its possible and he scored 20 goals in 28 league games (although including a few pens).

A pure BWM is too limited imo.

 

3. Is it a huge difference to use normal CBs instead of BPDs?

[knap]

This is a post form TommiHelm with a record of 198 games without losing

 

99% on counter. Sometimes I change to defensive just to keep the other teams guessing if I feel we're starting to not get the right results.

Training until tactic is 100% fluid:


Training after:


If you bring in any new player in January change back to the first one until it's fluid again.

- Individual training: GK=Goalkeeper, DC=Ball playing defender, WBR/L=Complete wing backs, MCR/L=Box-to-box midfielders, AMC/R/L=Trequartista.
- Do as many friendly matches as possible against weak teams before season starts.
- Get an assistant manager with as high motivating skill as possible. It's all I care about. I have him do team talks, pre-match interviews and tunnel interviews. I think this might be very important.
- Get as good coaches, physios and scouts as you can manage. Especially physios and coaches. Don't underestimate this.
- No OI, at all.
- Try to have 2 players in each position and setup two team selections for full rotation. Making sure everyone is at full match fitness all the time. Never play a player below 90% unless you have no other.
- After a match rest all the players that are below 90% for 2 days manually (mark them in the squad screen using shift/ctrl on keyboard and clicking them, right-click choose training and rest 2 days).
-.
- Fast attackers with "Play 1-2s" and good finishing or "Places shots" seem to be best for scoring goals. Midfielders should also be better at attacking then defending imo.

 

The above confirms the BWW position as a BBM, and in general I ignore the SI roles which included CDs or BPDs. I use BPDs in LL without problems but in this tactic BPDs have the edge.

[shirajzl]

On 7/11/2017 at 18:35, SavoNFFC said:

Been using the strikerless 3-4-3 formation with my Forest Green side for a season now and we're top of the league in April after 33 games with 95 points. Haven't actually lost a game in any competition yet this season so we won the Community Shield (won FA Cup last year), we're in the final of the FA Cup, semis of the Champions League and won the League Cup.

Beat Barcelona 13-1 on aggregate in the Second Round too....5-0 at the Nou Camp then 8-1 at the 12,500 capacity New Lawn.

 

 

Why do you have AM in the middle instead of SS?

[knap]

It is WOF 3430 which is the better top dog tactic.

[knap]

These team talks have been rcommended

 

Artisan's Guide to Teamtalks

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

this thread is just about to stick Artisan's Teamtalk Guide for FM14 to these boards, they are working insanely well from then on and belong remembered. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Team Talks

A lot of people have sent me quite a few messages about what i do for my team talks and these people are right to want to take this aspect of the game serious. Although it must be said that I have not done directed research on team talks, I have had a lot of experience and will be working off that for this section. So here you go. It might seem a bit much at the start but when you get used to it, you will not need to read this section anymore. It will become intuitive. TRUST ME !

Pre-match Team Talks

I usually link this to my teams form and the pre-match analysis comments. Think about the analysis comments as a sort of summary from a TV show like soccer saturday or match of the day. It is definitely more accurate than the numerical odds you get a few days before the game and is usually different. It usually appears on the second screen on match day after the formations screen. Example below.
 

Home Games

I listed the some base scenarios that should sort of cover most situations. Listed evry situation is really tedious and I might update it later if need be. 

Clear Favourites + Good Form : Expect A Performance (Aggresive or Assertive) + Pick Up where Left off for top performers in previous game

Favourite + Decent Form : Expect A Performance (Assertive) or For the Fans (Calm, Assertive)

Expected to Draw/Narrow Win + Previous good Game : Usually don't say anything or Pick Up where Left off for top performers in previous game.

Expected to loose Heavily: Usually don't say anything or No pressure (calm)

Rival Game or Cup Final/Semi: Expect A Performance (Passionate) if in good form or For the Fans (Passionate) in all other situations
 

Away Games

Clear Favourites + Good Form : Expect A Performance (Aggresive or Assertive) + Pick Up where Left off for top performers in previous game

Favourite + Decent Form : For the Fans (Calm, Assertive)

Expected to Draw/Narrow Win + Previous good Game : Usually don't say anything or Pick Up where Left off for top performers in previous game.

Expected to loose Heavily: No pressure (calm)

Rival Game or Cup Final/Semi: For the Fans (Passionate)
 

Halftime Team Talk

As you would have expected, I link this to the halftime score and also individual performances. But I also link it back to pre match analysis as well to determine the tone that I use. I put players into 3 categories based on there rating (Bad < 6.8), (Average 6.8), (Good > 6.8), (Great > 7.2). I will start with the general team talk the talk about individual after

Clear Favourites + Winning by over 2 goals or more: Happy with Football being Played (Assertive)
Clear Favourites + Winning by a goal: Things are going well but could be better (Assertive) or Complacency (Calm)
Clear Favourites + Drawing: 
Clear Favourites + Loosing: Expect Better (Aggressive) or Show me something Else (Aggressive)


Favourite + Winning by over 2 goals or more: Say Nothing or Happy with Football being Played (Calm)
Favourite + Winning by a goal: Say Nothing
Favourite + Drawing: Expect Better (Assertive)
Favourite + Loosing: Expect Better (Assertive, Calm) or Show me something Else (Assertive, Calm)


Narrow Win + Winning by over 2 goals or more: Happy with Football being Played (Assertive)
Narrow Win + Winning by a goal: Could be better (Calm/Cautious)
Narrow Win + Drawing: Could be better (Assertive)
Narrow Win + Loosing: Expect Better (Calm)


Expected to loose Heavily + Winning by 2 goals or more : Happy with Football being Played (Passionate)
Expected to loose Heavily + Winning by a goal : Happy with Football being Played (Calm)
Expected to loose Heavily + Drawing: Happy with Football being Played (Calm)
Expected to loose Heavily + Loosing: Show me Something Else if loosing heavily (Assertive) + No Pressure if narrowly loosing (Calm)

Individual Halftime

(Bad < 6.8) : Not Happy With performance (Assertive if Loosing) (Calm if winning)
(Average 6.8): No Individual Talk
(Good > 6.8) Have faith/there is more to come (Calm)
(Great > 7.2): Happy with performance (Assertive)

Post Match

Follows the same principle for the halftime team and individual team talks

[knap]

These team talks have been rcommended

 

Artisan's Guide to Teamtalks

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Hi,

this thread is just about to stick Artisan's Teamtalk Guide for FM14 to these boards, they are working insanely well from then on and belong remembered. 
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Team Talks

A lot of people have sent me quite a few messages about what i do for my team talks and these people are right to want to take this aspect of the game serious. Although it must be said that I have not done directed research on team talks, I have had a lot of experience and will be working off that for this section. So here you go. It might seem a bit much at the start but when you get used to it, you will not need to read this section anymore. It will become intuitive. TRUST ME !

Pre-match Team Talks

I usually link this to my teams form and the pre-match analysis comments. Think about the analysis comments as a sort of summary from a TV show like soccer saturday or match of the day. It is definitely more accurate than the numerical odds you get a few days before the game and is usually different. It usually appears on the second screen on match day after the formations screen. Example below.
 

Home Games

I listed the some base scenarios that should sort of cover most situations. Listed evry situation is really tedious and I might update it later if need be. 

Clear Favourites + Good Form : Expect A Performance (Aggresive or Assertive) + Pick Up where Left off for top performers in previous game

Favourite + Decent Form : Expect A Performance (Assertive) or For the Fans (Calm, Assertive)

Expected to Draw/Narrow Win + Previous good Game : Usually don't say anything or Pick Up where Left off for top performers in previous game.

Expected to loose Heavily: Usually don't say anything or No pressure (calm)

Rival Game or Cup Final/Semi: Expect A Performance (Passionate) if in good form or For the Fans (Passionate) in all other situations
 

Away Games

Clear Favourites + Good Form : Expect A Performance (Aggresive or Assertive) + Pick Up where Left off for top performers in previous game

Favourite + Decent Form : For the Fans (Calm, Assertive)

Expected to Draw/Narrow Win + Previous good Game : Usually don't say anything or Pick Up where Left off for top performers in previous game.

Expected to loose Heavily: No pressure (calm)

Rival Game or Cup Final/Semi: For the Fans (Passionate)
 

Halftime Team Talk

As you would have expected, I link this to the halftime score and also individual performances. But I also link it back to pre match analysis as well to determine the tone that I use. I put players into 3 categories based on there rating (Bad < 6.8), (Average 6.8), (Good > 6.8), (Great > 7.2). I will start with the general team talk the talk about individual after

Clear Favourites + Winning by over 2 goals or more: Happy with Football being Played (Assertive)
Clear Favourites + Winning by a goal: Things are going well but could be better (Assertive) or Complacency (Calm)
Clear Favourites + Drawing: 
Clear Favourites + Loosing: Expect Better (Aggressive) or Show me something Else (Aggressive)


Favourite + Winning by over 2 goals or more: Say Nothing or Happy with Football being Played (Calm)
Favourite + Winning by a goal: Say Nothing
Favourite + Drawing: Expect Better (Assertive)
Favourite + Loosing: Expect Better (Assertive, Calm) or Show me something Else (Assertive, Calm)


Narrow Win + Winning by over 2 goals or more: Happy with Football being Played (Assertive)
Narrow Win + Winning by a goal: Could be better (Calm/Cautious)
Narrow Win + Drawing: Could be better (Assertive)
Narrow Win + Loosing: Expect Better (Calm)


Expected to loose Heavily + Winning by 2 goals or more : Happy with Football being Played (Passionate)
Expected to loose Heavily + Winning by a goal : Happy with Football being Played (Calm)
Expected to loose Heavily + Drawing: Happy with Football being Played (Calm)
Expected to loose Heavily + Loosing: Show me Something Else if loosing heavily (Assertive) + No Pressure if narrowly loosing (Calm)

Individual Halftime

(Bad < 6.8) : Not Happy With performance (Assertive if Loosing) (Calm if winning)
(Average 6.8): No Individual Talk
(Good > 6.8) Have faith/there is more to come (Calm)
(Great > 7.2): Happy with performance (Assertive)

Post Match

Follows the same principle for the halftime team and individual team talks

 

[8BuggieNights15]

Hi Knap,

 

Great tactic, I'm sure you've been asked this numerous times, do you have a shut up shop tactic or a guide to create one? 

 

Thanks 

[knap]

As per screenie.  It can be useful against defensive teams to change to a defensive mentality.

[youaredie]

On 7/15/2017 at 03:40, knap said:

This is a post form TommiHelm with a record of 198 games without losing

 

99% on counter. Sometimes I change to defensive just to keep the other teams guessing if I feel we're starting to not get the right results.

Training until tactic is 100% fluid:


Training after:


If you bring in any new player in January change back to the first one until it's fluid again.

- Individual training: GK=Goalkeeper, DC=Ball playing defender, WBR/L=Complete wing backs, MCR/L=Box-to-box midfielders, AMC/R/L=Trequartista.
- Do as many friendly matches as possible against weak teams before season starts.
- Get an assistant manager with as high motivating skill as possible. It's all I care about. I have him do team talks, pre-match interviews and tunnel interviews. I think this might be very important.
- Get as good coaches, physios and scouts as you can manage. Especially physios and coaches. Don't underestimate this.
- No OI, at all.
- Try to have 2 players in each position and setup two team selections for full rotation. Making sure everyone is at full match fitness all the time. Never play a player below 90% unless you have no other.
- After a match rest all the players that are below 90% for 2 days manually (mark them in the squad screen using shift/ctrl on keyboard and clicking them, right-click choose training and rest 2 days).
-.
- Fast attackers with "Play 1-2s" and good finishing or "Places shots" seem to be best for scoring goals. Midfielders should also be better at attacking then defending imo.

 

The above confirms the BWW position as a BBM, and in general I ignore the SI roles which included CDs or BPDs. I use BPDs in LL without problems but in this tactic BPDs have the edge.

Hi sorry, just need to check, you are referring tot he 3430 tactic here?

[knap]

Was for 3430 but only difference will be DLF

[youaredie]

Thanks for the extremely fast response mate!

 

Loving this tactic!

[steakfaced]

Holy hell, I downloaded this tactic cuz my current one I made was very sturdy, going games without conceding, but only managing 1-2 a match as Monaco. I popped this on because of an injury crisis and this matched the team perfectly; we haven't lost yet.

 

It's scary good, and I'll probably stop using it as a result. But I'll maybe look at it and alter from there. Thanks tons.

[knap]

 

3430 in  LL

[Achieve]

Knap I love your tactics!

works well, plug and play and is totally effective. The fan love the attacking football and I'm not stressed out.

i predominantly rotate between the 3241 option as my main tactic and when the AI starts to understand how to counter it, I switch to the 3430 option. 

The third one I used is your  4231 formation with wingers option - not as strong for me so it's only when I wish to play more midfielders that I employ it. 

I see many tactics with names created by you now. What not with the goodbyes and such.

can you help me to understand the difference between all those available in this tactics sharing centre?

I hope I made sense. many thanks

[knap]

I start from a base idea, and once that is working I give it a name. I then try other formations using the base idea. In general this means TIs and PIs are very similar and can be easily mixed.

I also run a season with Ebbsfleet when I change tactics every few games, just to check they all work together and in LL.

The tactics also get independently  tested by Mr L over 180 games with underdog and sub top teams. They have tested over 200 tactics and GOODBYYE 3430 is the top tactic but WOF and Jouneyman are all in top 5 and Raw Sienna not far behind.

[xStarscream73x]

Hey Knap, or "Yoda" as I like to refer to you as....I've used your Raw Sienna 4231 (the defensive one) with relentless results over a 4 year period in the Scottish leagues with Livingston FC, so I was offered the Spurs job and the first few games I tried to use the same formation and got reamed 5-1 by Chelsea and 4-2 by Liverpool, so I happened upon this thread and decided to adopt the 3430 for the next away game which was a tough visit to a free scoring Swansea side.  I used the formation straight "out of the box" and watched Christian Eriksson perform a shadow striker masterclass as we demolished them 5-2.  Even Harry Kane had a good game in the centre of the 3 shadow strikers...I love how your tactics offer instant results!

[xStarscream73x]

6 hours ago, xStarscream73x said:

Hey Knap, or "Yoda" as I like to refer to you as....I've used your Raw Sienna 4231 (the defensive one) with relentless results over a 4 year period in the Scottish leagues with Livingston FC, so I was offered the Spurs job and the first few games I tried to use the same formation and got reamed 5-1 by Chelsea and 4-2 by Liverpool, so I happened upon this thread and decided to adopt the 3430 for the next away game which was a tough visit to a free scoring Swansea side.  I used the formation straight "out of the box" and watched Christian Eriksson perform a shadow striker masterclass as we demolished them 5-2.  Even Harry Kane had a good game in the centre of the 3 shadow strikers...I love how your tactics offer instant results!

Might as well follow that with a 4-0 hammering of Stoke at NWHL.....

[cocomaya]

Knap you are genius, you're legend m8  thanks 

[knap]

Another season

[Hypnotique]

thanks for the tactic knap

 

any idea what are the main attributes we should be looking for when signing players for this tactic in each position?

[knap]

I have attribute masking on, so I am more guided by scout reports. The SS and WBs ideally would have good finishing. The Spurs 1st team would be a good starting point.

[KISSkin]

On 14.07.2017 at 22:40, knap said:

- Individual training: GK=Goalkeeper, DC=Ball playing defender, WBR/L=Complete wing backs, MCR/L=Box-to-box midfielders, AMC/R/L=Trequartista.

If there is a striker, what trainings should he put?

[knap]

A player like Kane I retrain as SS, if a DLF role then train as DLF

[LLLL]

when I start like favourite, better use 3430 counter or standard?

[knap]

Most prefer counter.

[scottie1979]

been using these two tactics for some time now and getting great results in my save with Rangers then moving south taking the Southampton job (winning the league)  then moving on to Man U.

in my 4th year with Man U this happened. At this point city were top unbeaten - not any more. never had a match like it in all my years playing this game

 

[knap]

Unlucky for some.

 

Are you breaking 150 league goals in a season?

[scottie1979]

in just the premier league im getting 103 and the season before 106 - 53 so far this season up to Dec 4th.

so not as high as this - getting good results but nothing as daft as above

this season

 

[knap]

Kane makes a great SS 

[scottie1979]

99% of the time i play with the 3421 as i still like to have a striker and thats where kane plays getting 23 and 29 goals out of him

[scottie1979]

Griezmann is a superb in the SS roll