Problem with creation/creativity

[vandamme22]

Hi 

In general in this version of fm I am struggling to create good chances. At the moment I am playing with real madrid and I am really almost threating the opponent with long shots, its really frustrating...

Here are some basic information about my playing style:

 

Findings:

• Like I mentioned I am almost only threating from distance with long shots. There is rar e penetration of the opponent. 
• Ronaldo and Bale are shooting from everywhere they can (both produces in average 10-15 shots per game) - I ve already used the PI shoot less for both.
• I tried some other roles but with the same result. CF support instead of DLP. IF (S) instead of Winger (A) and also in the midfield some role rotations
• Many long shoots are also from free kicks. I dont know if they are also counted to the stats??

Goals:

I want to threat from both wings with cr7 and bale. They should be the main scorers and threat the opponent with dribblings etc. Creators are Benzema and the midfield duo modric and kroos. 

The FBs should also support the width of my game.

 

Here are some examples of the last three games:

Shooting stats from the whole team:

[AFCBeer]

I wouldn't say there is too much wrong with your set up, but it is typical of quite a few posts I see on here where a big team is failing to breakdown inferior opposition. Although you do have a winger stretching play, you have very little movement in behind. This is compounded by playing fluid, shorter passing and a higher defensive line. Basically a lot of play will be congested in front of the opposition.

The first thing I'd change is to add another attack duty to your front 3. Normally I'd say the DLF, but since you have Ronaldo then it might be better to let him have the attack duty as an IF(a). If you are going to stick with shorter passing, then at least give a couple of players more direct passing PI's so they can pick out the extra runner trying to go in behind. Its always worth changing shape at times during matches in an attempt to create a little more space. Dropping to structured might achieve this even if you don't do it for the full 90.

Another possible tweak would be to swap your AP(a) and BBM. My thinking is you want to get your playmaker (therefore your main creator) closer to Ronaldo so its easier to play him in. Then on the other side, the winger will pull defenders wider which might create a bit more space for the BBM to run into.

Also a lot of people will recommend to Work Ball into Box to solve the long shots issue. Well, yes and no. It might make your side slightly less inclined to take pot shots, but if the issue is not creating chances then its not that useful. If there are no alternative options you will still get long shots and worse still, might slow the pace down even more and provide even less penetration.

[MHovel]

the reason behind the long shots is because teams parking the bus against you and they limit your strikers or IF passing options.

You want to draw them (opposition) out from their position so you can have more space.

in order to achieve that, you want to lower your defensive line to deeper or atleast normal, because your current DL is too high and also remove the closing down more TI and see how it's going.

if it doesn't improve by any mean, use AFCBeer suggestions..

[summatsupeer]

I agree with whats been said so far.

Your Real Madrid, very few teams will push out and attack you, they'll park the bus and hope for a draw or steal a win through a counter/set piece.  

Your defensive plan is a full pitch press due to being on Control, Push Slightly Higher and Press Much More.  If this is successful you will be keeping the opponents pinned into there half, leaving you little space behind them to exploit.

Because your on Control, your team will look to attack quickly even with Shorter Passing.  If they can't create a good chance they might just have a pot shot, especially if the player has the PPM (i think a few real madrid players have it).

Looking at your roles & duties its almost a possession tactic, with there being few runners but then your on Control with only Shorter Passing to emphasis this patience and have 3 players looking to play through balls often.  Even if you were to change some combination of your mentality, shape, d-line and pressing I would still look at your roles & duties.  With the 1-2 triangle in midfield and no CM-A typically you have two players who will operate just outside the box so what does the ST dropping into that area provide?

[westy8chimp]

13 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Your Real Madrid, very few teams will push out and attack you, they'll park the bus and hope for a draw or steal a win through a counter/set piece.

agree but don't see the below as solution... think as you say its all about roles and duty.

14 hours ago, MHovel said:

You want to draw them (opposition) out from their position so you can have more space.

in order to achieve that, you want to lower your defensive line to deeper or atleast normal, because your current DL is too high and also remove the closing down more TI and see how it's going.

this is what I don't like/ don't understand

IRL if you 'park the bus' vs someone like Madrid ... are you really going to suddenly be lulled into a less defensive shape if they drop deeper?

Surely that's exactly what you want them to do ... you let them pass around in defence, you don't close down at all, you force them into tight spaces high up then press them and clear the ball and reset.

The way to beat the bus is surely to use varied attacks... it's not easy or one method ... but a simplistic view would be;

against a high line you want attacking strikers playing on the shoulder and feeding off of through balls... with a deep line you want your strikers to occupy and create for late runs...

so id say a simple change in who has the attack duties/roles could really help creativity.

[herne79]

7 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

agree but don't see the below as solution... think as you say its all about roles and duty.

this is what I don't like/ don't understand

IRL if you 'park the bus' vs someone like Madrid ... are you really going to suddenly be lulled into a less defensive shape if they drop deeper?

Surely that's exactly what you want them to do ... you let them pass around in defence, you don't close down at all, you force them into tight spaces high up then press them and clear the ball and reset.

The way to beat the bus is surely to use varied attacks... it's not easy or one method ... but a simplistic view would be;

against a high line you want attacking strikers playing on the shoulder and feeding off of through balls... with a deep line you want your strikers to occupy and create for late runs...

so id say a simple change in who has the attack duties/roles could really help creativity.

Yeh there's no right or wrong answer, just whatever method happens to work for any given scenario.

Dropping deeper can help to draw out an opponent, but like you say you're Real Madrid so would you really do that rather than trying to press home your advantage.

Changing individual roles can absolutely help to find that moment of individual brilliance or through ball.  Changing an IF to a Winger may help create a little extra space in the centre.  Moving the playmaker at AMC back to MC can also work wonders (one of my favourite moves), as can creating a better runner from midfield or altering the striker's role.  Shifting Team Shape to be more fluid adds creative freedom, or even just making a simple substitution to bring on a more flair type of player.

All sorts of options, so if something doesn't work there's always something else to try.

[summatsupeer]

3 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

agree but don't see the below as solution... think as you say its all about roles and duty.

this is what I don't like/ don't understand

IRL if you 'park the bus' vs someone like Madrid ... are you really going to suddenly be lulled into a less defensive shape if they drop deeper?

Surely that's exactly what you want them to do ... you let them pass around in defence, you don't close down at all, you force them into tight spaces high up then press them and clear the ball and reset.

The way to beat the bus is surely to use varied attacks... it's not easy or one method ... but a simplistic view would be;

against a high line you want attacking strikers playing on the shoulder and feeding off of through balls... with a deep line you want your strikers to occupy and create for late runs...

so id say a simple change in who has the attack duties/roles could really help creativity.

Even a team on Defensive mentality will push up the field, they just won't take risks.  In theory they could push all the way to the halfway line, but won't try to hold that high line. When possession is lost and the ball moves up the field they will willingly drop deeper but you won't see them back in there box whilst you have the ball in your third.

There is a difference between pressing the whole pitch, or as it comes into the central third or into your own half.  Do you want the ball back ASAP or are you willing to let them move out a bit before pressing in the hope of getting space to immediately exploit.  This is why I say your offensive and defensive plans should fit together rather than thinking about them in isolation.

Typically I change mentality rather than defensive line, the more patient style can allow the ball to be moved around more to create a chance rather than trying to force a shot in.  I might do other changes as such as increase tempo to move the ball quickly but still with fewer risks and more recycling to wait for a better chance.  I might increase the closing down whilst lowering mentality, wanting the ball but being patient with it.  There's lot of combinations BUT it has to work for the roles&duties, plus your players have to be able to do what your asking.

[westy8chimp]

21 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Moving the playmaker at AMC back to MC can also work wonders (one of my favourite moves), as can creating a better runner from midfield or altering the striker's role

personally this is the kind of change I make... i may start with an AP behind a CF ... with a conventional control/attack mentality, short passing, lower tempo - to try and use superior technical ability to open a team up patiently.

If i cant break the bus i may up the tempo and change an IF to a winger or if playing a very central formation I'd introduce a winger... if this still doesn't work or i get the feeling i don't want to do this...

then i quite often change the AP (in AM) to an attacking midfielder or SS on attack duty, make a CM my playmaker... and make the CF a DLF. (and depending on formation... perhaps an IF attack or CM attack as well making runs into the space vacated by the striker)

[vandamme22]

18 hours ago, AFCBeer said:

The first thing I'd change is to add another attack duty to your front 3. Normally I'd say the DLF, but since you have Ronaldo then it might be better to let him have the attack duty as an IF(a). If you are going to stick with shorter passing, then at least give a couple of players more direct passing PI's so they can pick out the extra runner trying to go in behind. Its always worth changing shape at times during matches in an attempt to create a little more space. Dropping to structured might achieve this even if you don't do it for the full 90.

Also a lot of people will recommend to Work Ball into Box to solve the long shots issue. Well, yes and no. It might make your side slightly less inclined to take pot shots, but if the issue is not creating chances then its not that useful. If there are no alternative options you will still get long shots and worse still, might slow the pace down even more and provide even less penetration.

OK thx I will change the duties of the roles and try the TI Work Ball into Box. Just as a reminder I dont wanna play a possession based style. More a attacking style with a higher tempo (reason for the controll mentality) but short passing instead of mixed/direct to reduce the pass mistakes. I set the duty of Ronaldo on support, because his PPM let him act like a IFA attack.

16 hours ago, MHovel said:

the reason behind the long shots is because teams parking the bus against you and they limit your strikers or IF passing options.

You want to draw them (opposition) out from their position so you can have more space.

in order to achieve that, you want to lower your defensive line to deeper or atleast normal, because your current DL is too high and also remove the closing down more TI and see how it's going.

Like I said I wanna play a high tempo and pressing game. To be compact and fill the gaps I set a higher DL and to press in the half of the opponent. I see a lot of threads in this forum that use a higher DL with a attacking mentality. Maybe my fluid setting should be changed to flexibel or more a structure shape???

2 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I agree with whats been said so far.

Your Real Madrid, very few teams will push out and attack you, they'll park the bus and hope for a draw or steal a win through a counter/set piece.  

Your defensive plan is a full pitch press due to being on Control, Push Slightly Higher and Press Much More.  If this is successful you will be keeping the opponents pinned into there half, leaving you little space behind them to exploit.

Because your on Control, your team will look to attack quickly even with Shorter Passing.  If they can't create a good chance they might just have a pot shot, especially if the player has the PPM (i think a few real madrid players have it).

Looking at your roles & duties its almost a possession tactic, with there being few runners but then your on Control with only Shorter Passing to emphasis this patience and have 3 players looking to play through balls often.  Even if you were to change some combination of your mentality, shape, d-line and pressing I would still look at your roles & duties.  With the 1-2 triangle in midfield and no CM-A typically you have two players who will operate just outside the box so what does the ST dropping into that area provide?

Pressing is set on more not much more. You ve been completly right that my tactic is set like a possession based style. But I wanna play a high tempo and pressing game. I also believe that I have to change the roles and duties. I didnt use modric or kroos as a cm (a) beacause of they technical skills. From time to time I used modric as a bbm. But with no a natural runner in the center midfield of a 4-3-3 formation its hard to fill the gaps between attack and midfield.

 

[vandamme22]

2 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

agree but don't see the below as solution... think as you say its all about roles and duty.

this is what I don't like/ don't understand

IRL if you 'park the bus' vs someone like Madrid ... are you really going to suddenly be lulled into a less defensive shape if they drop deeper?

Surely that's exactly what you want them to do ... you let them pass around in defence, you don't close down at all, you force them into tight spaces high up then press them and clear the ball and reset.

The way to beat the bus is surely to use varied attacks... it's not easy or one method ... but a simplistic view would be;

against a high line you want attacking strikers playing on the shoulder and feeding off of through balls... with a deep line you want your strikers to occupy and create for late runs...

so id say a simple change in who has the attack duties/roles could really help creativity.

Can only sign this what you wrote. How would you distribute the roles and duties? Bale und Ronaldo should the main scorer. Modric, Benzema and Kroos should be the creators and the full backs should offer width.

2 hours ago, herne79 said:

Changing individual roles can absolutely help to find that moment of individual brilliance or through ball.  Changing an IF to a Winger may help create a little extra space in the centre.  Moving the playmaker at AMC back to MC can also work wonders (one of my favourite moves), as can creating a better runner from midfield or altering the striker's role.  Shifting Team Shape to be more fluid adds creative freedom, or even just making a simple substitution to bring on a more flair type of player.

My apm is acting in the mc position and not amc. Did you see my setting?

[westy8chimp]

5 minutes ago, vandamme22 said:

Can only sign this what you wrote. How would you distribute the roles and duties? Bale und Ronaldo should the main scorer. Modric, Benzema and Kroos should be the creators and the full backs should offer width

 i have the same issue when i manage a top club... the hardest games in FM are what should be the easiest games on paper (irl) home to bottom of the league etc....

I've succeded with Paris and now Man City, using 4123 at Paris and 4231 with City. The common factor in each case has been Control mentality with fluid shape, using only one attack duty... and only 1 playmaker, mostly employed in the CM strata.

Getting specific players to score, or indeed having 2 top scorers is quite hard to achieve ... in my 4231 with City the goals are equally spread between my AMC (attacking midfielder support) and my Wide players (IF support on the left and winger attack on the right) I have Lewandowski as a DLF support creating most of the goals.

it may not be their natural position but I'd have either Bale or Ronaldo (or both) in a central position ... AMC slot is powerful when you have a F9 or DLF support ahead of them (benzema could be a good F9/DLF) beware F9 tends to dribble and shoot too much, regardless of PI.

And Winger attack will score more goals than an IF for Madrid ... because of the packed defences. Bale or Ronaldo should make a good winger ... yes they cross the ball... but if you have a central playmaker and short passing TI... more often than not the winger attack will actually play like a wide striker.

 

[westy8chimp]

Control, Fluid, Shorter Passing, More Pressing, higher D line.

                                      Benzema (DLF s)

 Bale (WG a)                Ronaldo (AM s)                James (IF s)

                        Kroos (DLP s)     Casemiro (CM d)

Marcelo (WB s)  Varane (CB d)  Ramos (CB d) Carvajal (FB s)

 

If struggling to score I'd make both wingers IF A (two players attacking space vacated by the DLF) ..and both fullbacks set to attack duty (maintain width) drop the AMC to CM (give the IFs more space to work) perhaps change my overall mentality to attacking and my CM D to CM S

 

                                  Benzema (DLF s)

 Bale (IF a)                                                   James (IF A)

      Kroos (DLP s)   Ronaldo (BBM s) Casemiro (CM S)

Marcelo (WB A)  Varane (CB d)  Ramos (CB d) Carvajal (FB a)

 

[herne79]

1 hour ago, vandamme22 said:

My apm is acting in the mc position and not amc. Did you see my setting?

Yes I did.  I was talking in general terms about how to combat stubborn defensive opposition in reply to westy's post.

[AFCBeer]

@vandamme22 actually I was cautiously recommending against work into the box. If your objective is high tempo attacking football it's not the right TI. 

 

Just touching on a point someone made about these games on paper being the easiest games, we need to understand why that is the case. Put simply it's because we have better players which in FM translate into better attribute numbers. 

The AI is now quite intelligent in its defensive strategies. To beat it, we need to understand where it has weaker numbers than us. For example:-

Are they slow? Do they lack height? Can they tackle? Are they low on composure and concentration?

A well balanced attacking strategy with better players should win. But if it's not working you may need to adjust your strategy to specifically exploit their weaknesses. If you can't spot their weaknesses, then is it really that easy a match afterall?

Personally I've found in the last few editions of FM, it's becoming more and more important to do your homework on the opposition and adapt. Some managers might be able to play the same strategy each match and get the job done. I can't because my tactics probably aren't good enough. However, I am good at recognising when it's not working and adjusting. 

[Armistice]

Honestly if you're looking just to break defensive teams rather than fully replicate a real life system then I could argue to use Raumdeuter for Ronaldo, he could really make good use of his quickness and off the ball stats to find space, especially if you drag players around. Here's how a Raumdeuter moves on and off the ball.

 

 

[summatsupeer]

5 hours ago, vandamme22 said:

Pressing is set on more not much more. You ve been completly right that my tactic is set like a possession based style. But I wanna play a high tempo and pressing game. I also believe that I have to change the roles and duties. I didnt use modric or kroos as a cm (a) beacause of they technical skills. From time to time I used modric as a bbm. But with no a natural runner in the center midfield of a 4-3-3 formation its hard to fill the gaps between attack and midfield.

 

My bad, saw it was on full but thats because of the higher d-line, either way your pressing very high.

When i've seen people say they want possession and high tempo typically they're expecting to have a high possession percentage whilst playing attacking football, which is trying to get the best of two different styles.

Not saying this is what you should do, but here's an example of what I would do to keep possession but keeping some penetration.  As you want Bale and Ronaldo to be the main threats I would setup a double pivot to allow both fullbacks to provide the width and try and draw opponent midfield further up the field to create space in the center. Something like:

• GK: GK-D
• DR: WB-S
• DCR: CD-D
• DCL: CD-D
• DL: WB-S
• DMC: DM-D
• MCR: BBM-S
• MCL: DLP-S
• AMR: IF-A
• AML: RMD-A
• ST: DLF-S

Here the ST is dropping and both advanced wide players are looking to get in behind.  The BBM can roam around and help support the DLF-S.  Using a DLP-S and DM-D gives us a double pivot to hold the midfield, providing the cover to allow both the DL and DR to get forward more.  They are providing overlapping runs, usually later in moves in the attacking phase due to being Support and they won't just swing crosses in, they can pick the best option so can recycle possession (depending on your team mentality ofc) or cut it back rather than driving to the touchline and trying to cross.

Now there is only one player playing Risky Passes Often (DLF-S) which should help possession but could lack penetration.  I would consider adding Player Instructions to the DLP-S so he plays them more often, and maybe allow him to play more direct passing. Have the DM and defenders play shorter less risky passes to feed the DLP, this should help with possession but keep some penetration as the players weaker at passing keep things simple but the exceptional passer in the team takes the risks.

Complete theory, might not play exactly how I envision but that's where i'd watch and adjust depending on what I see.

edit: I haven't put a mentality or team shape because I often change as required, typically I have Standard+Flexible, Counter+Structured and Control+Fluid setup but I might use any combination.

[jorgvandervloed]

@vandamme22

I would have a look at the post above this one as I think Ronaldo would shine in a RD role. Only thing I would change is giving the IF a support duty instead of an attacking one and vice versa for the WB behind him. Ronaldo obviously is great in the air and providing some more crosses would greatly help i think. 

You could also decrease creativity a little bit by going down to flexible or structured. They will play a more simple game and wont deviate as much from given instructions. This will increase possession a bit as well...