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[Suggestion] Abolishment of Cheating Setups, like ´Strikerless formation´-Tactics


Toonrock

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Hi SI,
 
First of all, I´ve been wanting for some time now to congratulate you on a GREAT version of FM (17 is the best to date, IMO).
It´s match engine, player decisions, running patterns (especially those of the strikers) etc. has been made remarkably better than previous versions, it´s really a great experience - Keep up that good direction you´re heading in, and THANK YOU for all the hard work you put into the game :)
 
Now, there´s an issue I really hope could be taken care of in future versions; I´m really getting tired of going around forums, and hearing from some of my friends online, that they employ a ´strikerless formation´ in order to "crack the ME" and win matches that way. The case was the same in previous versions, but now I think it´s time to do something about it.
 
No teams IRL-football employ a strikerless formation, NO teams!
 
I therefore propose that the tactics screen is set up, so that in any given tactic at least ONE striker (regardless of role) is required in the tactic.
 
Currently speaking, I´m playing with Malaga in La Liga, dueling for the championship with my 4-1-3-2 against Barcelona and R.Madrid, each season doing really well (and perhaps, someday winning the title).
Meanwhile, a friend of mine is in 1st place, 8 points ahead of Barcelona in the last half of the season - ...with Rayo Vallecano, employing a strikerless formation (Wins all the time, no fun in my opinion and basically unrealistic and in my book, it´s cheating). He beat Barcelona in the league 7-1... At Camp Nou(!)
 
To be honest, I think it´s somewhat not respectful to the game of football, and the history of how football has evolved and the manner in which managers have created and thought out the tactics and formations, that we see IRL today.
And for gaming managers, that creates or practices ´normal looking´-formations, it´s a little (actually, very) irritating to be playing the game ´realistically and honest´, while others don´t - Not to be disrespectful to my friends though. - But it´s obviously no secret that there´s somewhat a little competition going on among one another, so the odds for success aren´t exactly fair when there´s unrealistic exploiting involved.
I´ve been playing the game, ever since the first Championship Manager arrived and love the game - Therefore, it´s also important to me that the game is met with equal respect, realism and competitiveness.
 
I hope you like my suggestion and hopefully be looking into making the change as proposed for future releases.
 
Thank you beforehand for any reply! - (PS. Hope my English is okay, I´m from Denmark :))
 
Toonrock
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There are plenty of real life example where manages have sent out a team in a strikerless formation so they have a place in FM.

How the AI managers cope when they come up against such a formation what should be the focus of the ME dev's.

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2 minutes ago, Toonrock said:

No teams IRL-football employ a strikerless formation, NO teams!

I suggest you cast your memory back to Euro 2012. Spain won the tournament doing just this. I'm sure you'll find other examples from more recent times.

I've very rarely used strikerless formations, but I see no reason why nobody should be able to use one if they so wish. I certainly wouldn't say that they exploit the match engine or are disrespectful to the sport.

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21 minutes ago, CFuller said:

I suggest you cast your memory back to Euro 2012. Spain won the tournament doing just this. I'm sure you'll find other examples from more recent times.

Yeah, I remember:); Fabregas played as a false 9 for them - Such a role exists for strikers (use it then).

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24 minutes ago, Barside said:

There are plenty of real life example where manages have sent out a team in a strikerless formation so they have a place in FM.

Examples? Haven´t seen one (in my 30 years watching football), all games you see always have at least one man up front in the line-up - The case of using ´strikerless´ (in the way it is done) is just a exploiting way of trying to beat the ME - It has nothing to do with football in my book.

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I think the OP has a point.  IRL so called "striker-less" formations have included someone playing in an advanced position, even if their role isn't as an out and out striker, which player roles in the forward positions in the game account for.

I'll be honest here, I haven't observed it.  But if, and I stress, IF players are using it more as an exploit in that it may be imbalanced, then I could sympathise.

Just not sure how it could/should be tackled if that is the case.

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21 minutes ago, borivoje213 said:

Just not sure how it could/should be tackled if that is the case.

Thanks for response borivoje213 :)

As mentioned, I suggest a solution simply is "locking" at least one of the front men, so that in any given formation, you can´t play without at least one upfront - Just as it is with the case of the goalkeeper, which is locked in the tactics-screen when trying to move him.

- Because you´re absolutely right in what you wrote;  "IRL so called "striker-less" formations have included someone playing in an advanced position, even if their role isn't as an out and out striker, which player roles in the forward positions in the game account for".

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March 12, 2017. Olympiacos vs Atromitos (Greek League).
Olympiacos played for 59minutes (from kick-off till the 59th minute) with a 4-6-0.

If you speak greek, check this. Even if you don't speak greek, at least check the title (pretty obvious!).
Match info at transfermarkt.com here (in english).
In case your response is something like "But I see a striker", Alejandro Dominguez's main position is advanced playmaker and I think transfermarkt can't depict a 4-6-0...

And, what about Roma? Totti?
From a quick search: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/05/teams-of-the-decade-5-roma-2007/


Yeah, "No teams IRL-football employ a strikerless formation, NO teams!"...


I haven't played FM17 yet, but if the strikerless tactics are a way to "crack the ME", then SI must investigate.
Apart from this, it's within my rights to use a strikerless formation (although I've never used nor will I ever use one).

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20 hours ago, Toonrock said:

No teams IRL-football employ a strikerless formation, NO team

There have been strikerless systems in history, its not a cheat,  the devs just need to do a better job at getting the AI to handle them.

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19 hours ago, ilkork said:

Olympiacos played for 59minutes (from kick-off till the 59th minute) with a 4-6-0.

And, what about Roma? Totti?
From a quick search: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2010/03/05/teams-of-the-decade-5-roma-2007/

Still, Dominguez is placed as a striker (of some kind) in the line-up, might be dropping down in field (as a false 9, in that you´re correct). He is replaced with Ansarifard in the 59th minute (another striker). So no, still not valid to be seen as a 4-6-0, sorry :)

The same goes for Totti; False 9 (The drawing even shows it excellent, he´s advanced (ahead of the wingers, and he´s a striker, in a strikers position with the role of  false 9 - That´s how the analyze should be made).

Who ever wrote those articles should take a look at their analyzing one more time, IMO :)

Actually, ones team must (in some sort) always have some kind of ´up-front marker´ to keep the oppositions defensive line from getting too high up the pitch and in order not to lose the play/possession in midfield - The balancing of the two teams would be distorted otherwise, with the team playing with it´s ´front players´ to low on the pitch being the unmistakeable losing side.

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2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

There have been strikerless systems in history, its not a cheat,  the devs just need to do a better job at getting the AI to handle them.

Simply don´t agree with you (Read the posts for my argumentation)

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Just now, Toonrock said:

Simply don´t agree with you (Read the posts for my argumentation)

I just don't agree with you, far more respected commentators and football journalists have written about strikerless systems in the past. And I think they have more credibility than you.

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16 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I just don't agree with you, far more respected commentators and football journalists have written about strikerless systems in the past. And I think they have more credibility than you.

Examples, please

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By locking certain formations/positions you just chain the creativity of the player, in a system that, in my opinion, is already restricted enough.

Another good example is: what if im tight on a result, one man sent off (or not, whatever) and I want to play 10 at the back with the most contenitive formation possible? Would I be forced to play 1 man upfront in any case, even if I don't need/want it?

Naaahhh...

It's a different matter for the AI to work around and counter this kind of deployement, but that's up to the devs.

 

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Just google, there are so many books on the subject, you can even go read why Sir Alex Ferguson went strikerless, so I am not going to list every single book I read over the last 20 years on football. Here's one article, keep googling and you will find more on the subject. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/jun/08/euro2008 

I reckon the challenge now is to make the AI's strikerless systems better, I have seen the AI go strikerless a few times now, it just needs a bit of tweaking, and I reckon its going to be a lot better. Your argument isn't based on any facts, apart from your own observations, I will just defer to coaches and football commentators who have written about the subject for the last few years. They have used these systems, Ferguson and Spalleti spring to mind immediately.  My point is that they exist in real life, coaches have written about how they have used them.

 

 

 

 

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A lot of people use strikerless formations because strikers in the ME will not drop as deep as they do IRL during the defensive phase (see other threads recently on this site for discussions on this.) The formation screen in the tactics creator is your defensive formation, if that is the case, there are many teams whol would play "strikerless" when defending - see any Mourinho team, Simeone etc. I don't think this is "to crack the ME" but a workaround for something that doesn't function correctly. A similar issue with player behavior in the ME can be seen with the HB role not dropping between CD's unless the Wingbacks are in the DM strata, I know @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! has spoken about this in a lot of depth.

This may warrant discussion, but to me the OP reads that you are just a bit butt hurt that your friend is beating you and you want the game changed to stop it? I'm yet to see anyone actually exploit the match engine with a strikerless formation.

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10 hours ago, Federico said:

Another good example is: what if im tight on a result, one man sent off (or not, whatever) and I want to play 10 at the back with the most contenitive formation possible? Would I be forced to play 1 man upfront in any case, even if I don't need/want it?

Of course, things must be taken into consideration when fx one man down (or two or three, if you´re very unlucky :)).

First of all, I would say taking this into consideration (as I wrote in a post above, here quoted);  "Actually, ones team must (in some sort) always have some kind of ´up-front marker´ to keep the oppositions defensive line from getting too high up the pitch and in order not to lose the play/possession in midfield - The balancing of the two teams would be distorted otherwise, with the team playing with it´s ´front players´ to low on the pitch being the unmistakeable losing side".

Second of all, I would of course agree with you on this - If that really is what you want to do, is to take your front man down in defence, and ´park the bus´ fx or want to be a ekstra man in midfield, then perhaps a solution for SI could be that when one (or more) players are sent off, then the striker position could be unlocked for you to drag your player down the pitch (...But tactically speaking, if we take IRL-football as the example, I wouldn´t recommend it :))

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43 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Here's one article, keep googling and you will find more on the subject. https://www.theguardian.com/football/2008/jun/08/euro2008 

I think you got a point, that managers have been giving it thought and played with the ideas - But in the case of the article from The Guardian, it´s mostly been on the speculative level that teams would actually practicing it. - The article is almost a decade old, so why haven´t teams begun employing the ´through-out strikerless formation´? - I simply believe it´s a question of what works in football, and what dosn´t; The closest I have seen to the idea being implemented is in the case of the false 9 (again, setup as a striker, which is a role in FM).

Taken from the article, it says: "Roma's 4-1-4-1 formation frequently became 4-1-5-0". - I think it says it really good, that the ´base-line´ for the tactical setup, always employs at least one upfront.

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34 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

This may warrant discussion, but to me the OP reads that you are just a bit butt hurt that your friend is beating you and you want the game changed to stop it? I'm yet to see anyone actually exploit the match engine with a strikerless formation.

Nah, we´re playing separat games mate - So that´s not the case, sorry :lol:  -  Of course it would be nice to get fair competition on the tracks, and besides that it´s just to try to make the game more realistic :) Hope my friend makes the league and becomes champ! - But it´s just the way it is done, with an unrealistic exploiting tactic, that´s a bit unfortunate :)

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3 minutes ago, Toonrock said:

Nah, we´re playing separat games mate - So that´s not the case, sorry :lol:  -  Of course it would be nice to get fair competition on the tracks, and besides that it´s just to try to make the game more realistic :) Hope my friend makes the league and becomes champ! - But it´s just the way it is done, with an unrealistic exploiting tactic, that´s a little unfortunate :)

Explain how it is exploiting given what I posted in the first half of my post:

Quote

A lot of people use strikerless formations because strikers in the ME will not drop as deep as they do IRL during the defensive phase (see other threads recently on this site for discussions on this.) The formation screen in the tactics creator is your defensive formation, if that is the case, there are many teams whol would play "strikerless" when defending - see any Mourinho team, Simeone etc. I don't think this is "to crack the ME" but a workaround for something that doesn't function correctly. A similar issue with player behavior in the ME can be seen with the HB role not dropping between CD's unless the Wingbacks are in the DM strata, I know @Ö-zil to the Arsenal! has spoken about this in a lot of depth.

EDIT: Also, who is to say what your friend is doing in his save, it could be anything from an incredibly lucky result, to him using the editor to pump money into the club, buy 200mil worth of players and constant reloads. To say it is just his tactic alone is somewhat misleading, unless you can give us some evidence.

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10 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Explain how it is exploiting given what I posted in the first half of my post:

 

...Well, one example - Rayo Vallecano will never beat Barca 1-7 at Camp Nou:lol:

It´s simply not realistic to line-up without at least one at top - It´s simply not compatible with IRL-football.

Besides that, read the posts (a little tired of keep repeating myself:lol:, all of the discussions is argumentet for above)

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7 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Explain how it is exploiting given what I posted in the first half of my post:

EDIT: Also, who is to say what your friend is doing in his save, it could be anything from an incredibly lucky result, to him using the editor to pump money into the club, buy 200mil worth of players and constant reloads. To say it is just his tactic alone is somewhat misleading, unless you can give us some evidence.

it's by-the-by to the overall point though.

I think Rashidi has been very fair and some other good points made...

  • IRL some managers, rare though it be, have employed a strikerless formation successfully
  • Some managers deploy defensively, certainly strikerless, then in transition change to a 442 etc - so ties into FM 'defensive shape' not really helping natural positions.
  • Some managers switch to strikerless to hold a lead

However, and as Rashidi also touched on... and probably embodies what the OP is really peeved about... strikerless formations do seem overpowered... probably because the AI just hasn't been coded to handle it properly.

 

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21 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Did you read the first part of my post? Have a look at the pictures in this thread and re-read what I said.

 

Sorry, hadn´t seen that - Of course there´re different shapes during the phases of a match - But still, the starting out-led for Higuain and Dybala is striker-positions. Then they perhaps work deep, as a defensive forward, or drop deep as a false 9.

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Spain / MCFC / Barcelona / Arsenal have all lined up with no out and out striker this season.

MCFC did it on sunday with KDB in the false 9 late in the game.

I think Westy8chimps post above has the actual issue with it covered.

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9 minutes ago, Toonrock said:

Sorry, hadn´t seen that - Of course there´re different shapes during the phases of a match - But still, the starting up-led for Higuain and Dybala is striker-positions. Then they perhaps work deep, as a defensive forward, or drop deep as a false 9.

I agree completely. The ME does not allow for strikers to drop into that deeper positions though, so a strikerless 4-4-2 would better represent how Juve played that game, as AM's attacking movements can closely replicate strikers.

Having the ability removed to play strikerless would be wrong when the real issue that needs to be looked at is the defensive positioning of players in the striker strata.

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5 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

it's by-the-by to the overall point though.

I think Rashidi has been very fair and some other good points made...

  • IRL some managers, rare though it be, have employed a strikerless formation successfully
  • Some managers deploy defensively, certainly strikerless, then in transition change to a 442 etc - so ties into FM 'defensive shape' not really helping natural positions.
  • Some managers switch to strikerless to hold a lead

However, and as Rashidi also touched on... and probably embodies what the OP is really peeved about... strikerless formations do seem overpowered... probably because the AI just hasn't been coded to handle it properly.

 

Read the posts - I´ve said what I wanted to say in those; After all, this is a suggestion for SI.

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10 minutes ago, wkdsoul said:

Spain / MCFC / Barcelona / Arsenal have all lined up with no out and out striker this season.

MCFC did it on sunday with KDB in the false 9 late in the game.

I think Westy8chimps post above has the actual issue with it covered.

No, they haven´t  (striker WITH A ROLE) -  Read the introduction post and the other (starting) posts - I´ve said what I wanted to say in those; After all, this is a suggestion for SI.

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11 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

I agree completely. The ME does not allow for strikers to drop into that deeper positions though, so a strikerless 4-4-2 would better represent how Juve played that game, as AM's attacking movements can closely replicate strikers.

Having the ability removed to play strikerless would be wrong when the real issue that needs to be looked at is the defensive positioning of players in the striker strata.

Of course it would be the ideal thing if it was to be solved by not having to use actual strikerless, but as long as it can be used to exploiting the ME, I still think the way of doing all possible from preventing it from happening, is locking at least one spot up front (and if you want to use "strikerless", then use the roles, false 9 etc.)

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1 minute ago, Toonrock said:

Of course it would be to be the ideal thing if it was to be solved by not having to use actual strikerless

So you agree using strikerless in this instance is a way to achieve something that happens IRL. By definition then, it is a workaround, not an exploit.

1 minute ago, Toonrock said:

but as long as it can be used to exploiting the ME

Still seen no evidence of this.

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So if i want to play a no.10 breaking forward as a SS instead of a 9 dropping deep to create the space. I wont be able to coz you don't like it?  The examples above in strikerless formation the false 9 plays in the AMC line rather than toe to toe with the cb/defensive line .  More often than not it will be the wide players pushing on defines where the defense can play.  (I totally agree on the 3 strikerless formations though, they are a bit much).

Its obv. not a prevalent as this years tactic makers have it but it is used in real football. 
 

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8 hours ago, Craigus89 said:

1. So you agree using strikerless in this instance is a way to achieve something that happens IRL. By definition then, it is a workaround, not an exploit.

2. Still seen no evidence of this.

1. It would be meaningless to be able to (or wanting to play) strikerless,; 1. Because it dosn´t exist. -  2. Because if you were to actually line-up in that way (implemented into IRL-football), you would lose nearly every single game; As I tried to explain in an earlier quote; "Actually, ones team must (in some sort) always have some kind of ´up-front marker´ to keep the oppositions defensive line from getting too high up the pitch and in order not to lose the play/possession in midfield - The balancing of the two teams would be distorted otherwise, with the team playing with it´s ´front players´ to low on the pitch being the unmistakeable losing side".

2. Evidence? - This is not a trial, sorry mate :)  - It´s a reminder and suggestion to SI of taking something out of the game, that is not realistically allowed to be there, and replace it with a logic new implementation.

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Look, sorry for this, I am gonna have to end the argument(?) cause it's getting nowhere.

-4-6-0 or strikerless formations exist IRL, many teams employ them under various circumstances or just because that's how they want to play.
And NO, the man "upfront" (if you wish to call it that way, because, as you can see in this excellent thread, there isn't only one man "upfront") is not acting 100% as a striker.

-If there is a problem (teams use strikerless formations to "crack the ME"), then SI should investigate.

-You can't tell me what formation I can/can't use.
I could even use a 5-5-0 if I wanted or something like the following:

Spoiler

6-4-0.png

 

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9 hours ago, wkdsoul said:

So if i want to play a no.10 breaking forward as a SS instead of a 9 dropping deep to create the space. I wont be able to coz you don't like it?  The examples above in strikerless formation the false 9 plays in the AMC line rather than toe to toe with the cb/defensive line .  More often than not it will be the wide players pushing on defines where the defense can play.  (I totally agree on the 3 strikerless formations though, they are a bit much).

Its obv. not a prevalent as this years tactic makers have it but it is used in real football. 
 

I say again;  Look at the line-ups you see each week on tv, ALL FORMATIONS HAVE AT LEAST ONE STRIKER UP FRONT. In my 30 years watching football, I haven´t once, not once, heard a commentator present the line-ups with: ".......And it´s A and B on the wings, and in the middle, C as the central attacking midfielder.... and....... ahhhh, where´s my notes again..... mmmm, well; They play without a striker today......"(?!?) :) :lol: ....Not once, sorry. .... - Basically, I can´t see what the problem is with just using the drop-down ability of fx the false 9, if that´s the effect you want in your tactic (it serves the same, as the other way around, with a SS going forward; But that just dosn´t exist IRL-line ups).

Regarding your quote: "So if i want to play a no.10 breaking forward as a SS instead of a 9 dropping deep to create the space. I wont be able to coz you don't like it?"  -  No; I don´t want you to do it, because it dosn´t exist in any line-ups (as it´s simply not compatible with how formations are used IRL-football).

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40 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Look, sorry for this, I am gonna have to end the argument(?) cause it's getting nowhere.

-4-6-0 or strikerless formations exist IRL, many teams employ them under various circumstances or just because that's how they want to play.
And NO, the man "upfront" (if you wish to call it that way, because, as you can see in this excellent thread, there isn't only one man "upfront") is not acting 100% as a striker.

-If there is a problem (teams use strikerless formations to "crack the ME"), then SI should investigate.

-You can't tell me what formation I can/can't use.
I could even use a 5-5-0 if I wanted or something like the following:

  Reveal hidden contents

6-4-0.png

 

Read the introduction post and the other (starting) posts - I´ve said what I wanted to say in those; After all, this is a suggestion for SI.

...But here goes again (just to make sure that it´s spelled out): " Look at the line-ups you see each week on tv, ALL FORMATIONS HAVE AT LEAST ONE STRIKER UP FRONT. In my 30 years watching football, I haven´t once, not once, heard a commentator present the line-ups with: ".......And it´s A and B on the wings, and in the middle, C as the central attacking midfielder.... and....... ahhhh, where´s my notes again..... mmmm, well; They play without a striker today......"(?!?) :) :lol: ....Not once, sorry. .... - Basically, I can´t see what the problem is with just using the drop-down ability of fx the false 9, if that´s the effect you want in your tactic (it serves the same, as the other way around, with a SS going forward; But that just dosn´t exist IRL-line ups)".

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Oh man...
 

12 minutes ago, Toonrock said:

" Look at the line-ups you see each week on tv, ALL FORMATIONS HAVE AT LEAST ONE STRIKER UP FRONT. In my 30 years watching football, I haven´t once, not once, heard a commentator present the line-ups with: ".......And it´s A and B on the wings, and in the middle, C as the central attacking midfielder.... and....... ahhhh, where´s my notes again..... mmmm, well; They play without a striker today......"(?!?) :) :lol: ....Not once, sorry.

In your "30 years watching football", you clearly haven't watched many matches, have you?
Cause I have watched strikerless formations in TV and only with half the years you have.
Strikerless Spain, strikerless Roma, strikerless Olympiacos (only in one match, but still).
And I am sure there are more examples.

Yes, 99% of the times you will see at least one striker in the line-up.
But, it's that 1% of the times where you'll see a strikerless formation...

And what do you expect from a commentator in the TV? An analysis about each team's formations?
Do you expect the layman sitting in his couch at home to understand the 4-6-0?

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4 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Oh man...
 

In your "30 years watching football", you clearly haven't watched many matches, have you?
Cause I have watched strikerless formations in TV and only with half the years you have.
Strikerless Spain, strikerless Roma, strikerless Olympiacos (only in one match, but still).
And I am sure there are more examples.

Yes, 99% of the times you will see at least one striker in the line-up.
But, it's that 1% of the times where you'll see a strikerless formation...

And what do you expect from a commentator in the TV? An analysis about each team's formations?
Do you expect the layman sitting in his couch at home to understand the 4-6-0?

Drop the ´Oh man...´ comments, please.

Read the introduction post and the other (starting) posts - I´ve said what I wanted to say in those; After all, this is a suggestion for SI.

I stop the communication with you here - I´ve reported your posting (and language use) as above.

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4 minutes ago, Toonrock said:

Drop the ´Oh man...´ comments, please.

Who are you to tell me what I can/can't say?
 

4 minutes ago, Toonrock said:

Read the introduction post and the other (starting) posts - I´ve said what I wanted to say in those; After all, this is a suggestion for SI.

Bad suggestion, sorry!
 

5 minutes ago, Toonrock said:

I stop the communication with you here - I´ve reported your posting (and language use) as above.

What's the problem with my language?

Oh, grow up, please...

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