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vignjoslav

PA and CA suggestion

18 posts in this topic

Hi, sorry for my bad English.
My suggestion is that PA is not fixed. We scout some players, and we know already that he will success or he will not. And there for we buy only players that our scouts says, he is god. But what if the progress depends on his training commitment, way of play, crucial games and goals, tutoring and many other things? So, we can buy some young player with 2 or 3 stars maybe, that is approximately PA maybe 100. And if he doing all the things above good, maybe PA could raise for him up to 120 or 130.
Example: I manage Rugby FC in 9 or 10 rank of competition. And i bought young player and he scores in 3 seasons 120+ goals, but he reaches his PA, and nobody wants to buy him. But if PA could raise up to his fixed limits, he can make future progress in higher leagues, or somebody will buy him.
I wnat that when i buy some kids that he is not predestined for success just because he have 4 or 5 stars.
All the best guys.

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Your potential can never be more than your potential. Potential is meant to represent the limits of that individual. You can't have more potential 6 months down the line than you had beforehand. 

Jon Walters for example can never have more potential than he has, no matter what happened in his career or who signed him. It may be that he has never fulfilled his actual potential but at a certain point it was impossible for him to ever do that & that is what FM portrays in this way. FM already has structures in place that make reaching PA a lot less likely for a player who only has access to poor facilities and playing at a lower standard. With how the system is designed, even if you designed perfect players mentally with a low CA at age 16 but 200 PA they'd be very unlikely to reach their full potential.

Scouts work on an interpretation of potential, it's not categorically right or wrong and sometimes they can really get it wrong. It is far too easy to work out if a player will be a success or not I feel as well, but that's different from the issue of PA and CA, but rather the insight provided by scout reports. Buy a 5 star potential player with red flags for consistency, professionalism, determination and ambition. The chances of getting that player to be successful are incredibly slim, even with a 200CA. 

If a player scores so many goals in a short space of time though there is likely to be interest, the main issue is that the teams at the level likely to be interested as also teams likely to be unable to afford him. It's not that there's no interest, if you transfer listed him on a free I'm sure there would be some interest. The teams who likely have some money to spend (Tier 4 and above generally speaking) aren't likely to be looking at a player scoring for fun that far down the pyramid as its too big a gap. 

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You are right in some of the facts. AI buy players according to his potential. That my player who scores 120 goals has potential, i think maybe 80. Because of that nobody wants to buy him even if his price is 1.6k e. It has never been any interest or something similar.
What if we can sees full potential of young players immediately after scouting? Maybe that is better?

I just want to say that is to easy to find good regens, we can never make mistakes when we choose young players. I want to work hard on scouting players, bringing them to club and at the end, make him a good football player.

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Posted (edited)

46 minutes ago, vignjoslav said:

I just want to say that is to easy to find good regens, we can never make mistakes when we choose young players. I want to work hard on scouting players, bringing them to club and at the end, make him a good football player.

I completely agree. Or another solution can be dastically decrease the average ability of scouts to find the real potential of players and maybe even make the scouting way longer than now.

Edited by ParanoidBuddha

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And that is not bad idea. Scouts with attributes for JPA and JPP 7 or 8, have same scouts reports, and same stars for scouted player like scouts with attributes larger than 15. That is my experience. 

Something else unrelated to this topic.
Si needs to improve the reality of getting young players worth of the first team in that league where is your club. I'm traveling thorough leagues and in 15 years i didnt get any young player worth of my fist team . That is not even close to reality.

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1 hour ago, vignjoslav said:

Something else unrelated to this topic.
Si needs to improve the reality of getting young players worth of the first team in that league where is your club. I'm traveling thorough leagues and in 15 years i didnt get any young player worth of my fist team . That is not even close to reality.

Then you are doing something badly wrong because the rest of us do get players who make it to the first team on a semi regular basis.

You have to give them a chance to succeed.

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Sorry if i have misunderstood but is the problem with PA not that no one can ever know and so "fixing" it makes things a little less realistic. Take Jamie Vardy for example; I would be interested to know what his CA and PA were on FM 2012 compared to now? Cohen Bramel at Arsenal is another example though not as extreme. I doubt any scout report that FM used to set up the players stats at those points in time would have suggested they would be where they are at now. It is also not reflected in the game imo that a Premiership team would pick up a player from non league (or even league two or one) that would have the impact that Vardy has had. While these scenarios are not everyday things, there should be scope for it?

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1 hour ago, garrypelka said:

Sorry if i have misunderstood but is the problem with PA not that no one can ever know and so "fixing" it makes things a little less realistic. Take Jamie Vardy for example; I would be interested to know what his CA and PA were on FM 2012 compared to now? Cohen Bramel at Arsenal is another example though not as extreme. I doubt any scout report that FM used to set up the players stats at those points in time would have suggested they would be where they are at now. It is also not reflected in the game imo that a Premiership team would pick up a player from non league (or even league two or one) that would have the impact that Vardy has had. While these scenarios are not everyday things, there should be scope for it?

Whilst it is part of the issue its only relevant to real players that have details entered by researchers.

For FM created players it isn't an issue as the player doesn't exist IRL and high PA players can appear at any club.

For real players its also only a minor issue - using your example of Jamie Vardy I don't know what his PA was in FM12 but it was only relevant to that release.  As long as his PA was semi realistic in 2012 when people were playing FM12 then its fine.  Looking back five years later yes you can see the weakness in the system but as we are now playing FM17 it doesn't matter as long as his PA in FM17 is semi realistic.

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I agree to some extent, and i even think that PA should not actually exist.

 

In real life there 'may' be PA, but only GOD know a player's PA.

But in FM, everybody knows the players PA. that makes the game unreal.

I would suggest that only CA is present, and the growth of a player is determined by a randomized and volatile (not a fixed value) manner (something like throwing a dice every month?), along with known factors like training staff, match experience and ETC.

Two concepts are needed.

1. Every player will grow differently, even if CA is same and treated same (very obviouse considering only a fraction of hot prospects become real stars)

2. It is impossible to predict which player will become a star (It will be needed to have a large pool of decent looking hot prospects to obtain a star), for BOTH computer and human (even if he uses geniescout)

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45 minutes ago, Stryer said:

In real life there 'may' be PA, but only GOD know a player's PA.

FM is God within the game.

45 minutes ago, Stryer said:

But in FM, everybody knows the players PA. that makes the game unreal.

Only if you use the IGE or 3rd party software.

If you only use the game as intended nobody knows the PA.

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Just now, Cougar2010 said:

FM is God within the game.

Only if you use the IGE or 3rd party software.

If you only use the game as intended nobody knows the PA.

The computer actually acts as if they 'know' the PA

The scouts give you potential stars which is a rough estimate of PA

You don't think real life scouts can estimate "PA" as accurately as the star ratings?

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15 minutes ago, Stryer said:

The computer actually acts as if they 'know' the PA

There are times when it can feel like AI managers "know" the PA but SI assure us they don't.

They simply look at scout reports in a similar way that we do - Those that are high CA for their age with potential to improve attract interest.

 

15 minutes ago, Stryer said:

The scouts give you potential stars which is a rough estimate of PA

You don't think real life scouts can estimate "PA" as accurately as the star ratings?

Its been proven in other threads that both scouts and human managers are highly inaccurate when it comes to judging PA.

Sure they'll be close some of the time but so would a 3yo sticking pins in a board.

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I think the main issue here is that it is far too easy for a player to reach his potential in FM. It seems that with some game time and decent facilities a wonderkid can become a superstar within a few years.

In reality, like you mentioned in the first post, it should take things like playing in crucial games, learning from world-class players and coaching from the world's best managers/coaches to become a superstar. This would also make it easier for researchers to give lower players, such as Vardy when at Fleetwood higher potentials. As unless he is snapped up by a bigger team and is able to play with better players and good facilities, it would be impossible to get even close to his potential.

I think they way that potential works and a player grows definitely needs looking at.

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On 2017-5-27 at 11:32, Stryer said:

The computer actually acts as if they 'know' the PA

The scouts give you potential stars which is a rough estimate of PA

You don't think real life scouts can estimate "PA" as accurately as the star ratings?

Those stars that the scouts give you are not based on PA. They are based mostly on CA and age. It is called PPA (Perceived Potential Ability) and it is basically how good a player is for his age.

If an 18 yr old has 150 CA he is going to get 5 stars, because the scout sees he is incredible for his age and assumes he will continue to improve and has many years in which to do so, even if this player's PA is 151. Conversely a 21 yr old with 100 CA is going to get quite a poor star rating from a Premier League scout as he believes the player is well behind his age group and has very little time left to improve with a lot of ground to make up, even if this player has 200 CA.

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On 2017-6-3 at 23:40, TimmsSports said:

I think the main issue here is that it is far too easy for a player to reach his potential in FM. It seems that with some game time and decent facilities a wonderkid can become a superstar within a few years.

In reality, like you mentioned in the first post, it should take things like playing in crucial games, learning from world-class players and coaching from the world's best managers/coaches to become a superstar. This would also make it easier for researchers to give lower players, such as Vardy when at Fleetwood higher potentials. As unless he is snapped up by a bigger team and is able to play with better players and good facilities, it would be impossible to get even close to his potential.

I think they way that potential works and a player grows definitely needs looking at.

We made some significant changes this year (FM17) to the development module. However these are all under the hood so may not be immediately obvious to the Player. The aim is to have more Mario Balotellis and Ravel Morrisons. 9 times out 10 we want him to waste his potential, but that 1 save out of 10 we want him to become world class. Other less extreme examples are available. This diversity in development is what we were aiming for and continue to work on into future versions of the game. If you have examples where you are not seeing enough variation and/or it is too easy to have all types of players reach their PA then get them posted in the bugs section and we'll take a look.

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Posted (edited)

Another way to get around the whole PA not seemingly accounting for late bloomers (i'm not of this belief though I'm quite happy), would be to have a trigger point set as an age range for when an individual is most able to develop.  This would be a completely hidden stat that no one would ever see.  So on rare occasions some random players' stats at some random club would suddenly start buffing out and interest would circulate based on the improved CA and performances that come with it.  This would be quite a rarity of course.

So these individuals would still have a PA.  but rather than seeing high development until around 25 they would have for examples sake crap development and then at some point it kicks in later on and continues until a bit later in their career than most.

Edited by borivoje213

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2 hours ago, borivoje213 said:

Another way to get around the whole PA not seemingly accounting for late bloomers (i'm not of this belief though I'm quite happy), would be to have a trigger point set as an age range for when an individual is most able to develop.  This would be a completely hidden stat that no one would ever see.  So on rare occasions some random players' stats at some random club would suddenly start buffing out and interest would circulate based on the improved CA and performances that come with it.  This would be quite a rarity of course.

So these individuals would still have a PA.  but rather than seeing high development until around 25 they would have for examples sake crap development and then at some point it kicks in later on and continues until a bit later in their career than most.

Whilst we perhaps do not have a system this extreme, there are mechanics in place that act in this way. Players have various peak ages which translate into things such as their optimal development age range, their physical best, the begin of their decline, etc. These ages vary from player to player. We also have (rare) events that can trigger exceptional growth in a very short period of time.

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On 6/23/2017 at 14:51, Seb Wassell said:

Whilst we perhaps do not have a system this extreme, there are mechanics in place that act in this way. Players have various peak ages which translate into things such as their optimal development age range, their physical best, the begin of their decline, etc. These ages vary from player to player. We also have (rare) events that can trigger exceptional growth in a very short period of time.

I am also thinking about that kind of an improvement will be great for the game and we should talk about more of Jamie Vardy.We can find a genie scout for FM 11 and look for his PA and compare it with FM 17. I am %100 sure his PA will be much less than FM 17. The same thing should be applied to Dimitri Payet (PA values should be compared in between FM 11 and FM 17). So what I am trying to say that increase of PA is a natural thing in FM. Users in this community can give different examples and this discussion can be advanced into a unique direction.

I also accept the Johathan Walters argument.Some players have some certain level of potential and this cant be changed. But What I want to say is FM should reward an exceptional season for a player (often young ones) by increasing his PA a little bit.

An extra example for the situation is my curiosity about Carlos Tevez. I installed CM 03/04 and scout Carlos Tevez for West Ham . Scouts said "Tevez hasn't got enough potential to be a first teamer." It's interesting to see that they didn't rate him highly.In the end , he became a top class forward.This means he actually has a very good PA. To conclude, it might be reasonable for rewarding an exceptional season by increasing PA of a player.

 

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