No crosses in my possession tactic

[ilkork]

Thanks to @Cleon, I have created a very good possession-based tactic.
I am in my second year ingame (16/17), FM16. I had this tactic from a previous save and I haven't changed anything in my second ingame year, it's the same from day one. As you can see in the images below, it's working:

Spoiler

Possession so far in my league:

Possession in my league (last year):

 

The problem? My problem is that my wingers and my complete wing backs tend to not cross while in position of crossing. They are in the following area:

and instead of crossing, they prefer to pass the ball outside the penalty area to my DLP, BWM or AMC.
It's happening very often (I would say 8 times out of 10) and it's getting very annoying.

 

My Control 4-2-3-1 Wide tactic:
-Formation and Team Instructions:

Spoiler

-Player Instructions (Complete Wing Back R and L are the same, Winger R and L are the same):

Spoiler

 

And my Attacking 4-2-3-1 Wide tactic (in case it's informative):
-Formation and Team Instructions:

Spoiler

-Player Instructions (Complete Wing Back R and L are the same, Winger R and L are the same):

Spoiler

 

What I always do, in terms of approaching matches, is to play 15'-30' with my attacking tactic and 60'-75' with the control tactic.
I never use the control tactic for the whole 90 minutes and I never change TI's or PI's while in a match.
What I sometimes do, is to swap my wingers and change them to IF's (both on support duty in my control tactic and both on attack duty in my attacking tactic) and I am doing that because in the Greek league, the opposition tends to use a very defensive tactic against me.
But I am doing it for a maximum of 15'-30', most of the times I am playing with wingers.

I know that, the way the control tactic is set up, it's not that risky. But, as you can see from the PIs, even those aggressive ones don't help.
This thing doesn't happen with my attacking tactic, but I can't use my attacking tactic it for the whole 90' cause it's very aggressive and doesn't help with possession.
What can I do about it?

PS. The problem didn't appear in my second year. It was happening in the first year as well.

[ilkork]

Is it the "Work Ball Into Box"?
Does this TI prevent my wingers and wing backs from crossing?

I thought that, in order to play with a possession based tactic, the "Work Ball Into Box" is essential, isn't it?

[HUNT3R]

Work Ball Into Box reduces crosses and long shots, so yes, it will influence the decision making you're questioning.

[ilkork]

11 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Work Ball Into Box reduces crosses and long shots, so yes, it will influence the decision making you're questioning.

I am curious though, cause I added "More Direct Passes" and "More Risky Passes" to my winger's PIs and it doesn't seem to override the "Work Ball Into Box". And they even have the "Cross More Often" PI.

I am stupid and forgot to mention that I could add the "More Risky Passes" to my complete wing backs, but I haven't.
It's worth trying, right?

Apart from the work ball into box, is there anything else that may cause the problem?

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, ilkork said:

I am curious though, cause I added "More Direct Passes" and "More Risky Passes" to my winger's PIs and it doesn't seem to override the "Work Ball Into Box". And they even have the "Cross More Often" PI.

I am stupid and forgot to mention that I could add the "More Risky Passes" to my complete wing backs, but I haven't.
It's worth trying, right?

Apart from the work ball into box, is there anything else that may cause the problem?

It's not a direct or risky pass though, is it? The screenshots you show is the player being in position to cross. Why not remove the instruction that's reducing crosses?

[ilkork]

9 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

It's not a direct or risky pass though, is it? The screenshots you show is the player being in position to cross.

I thought that direct or risky pass is related to crosses somehow, isn't it?

9 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Why not remove the instruction that's reducing crosses?

What instruction are you referring to? I don't think I have one that's reducing them.

I want them to cross more often in the control tactic (my attacking tactic is fine, no problems there).

[HUNT3R]

2 minutes ago, ilkork said:

What instruction are you referring to? I don't think I have one that's reducing them.

Work Ball Into Box. 

[ilkork]

4 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Work Ball Into Box. 

Oh, ok.

Thank you for your time, I will try it.

[HUNT3R]

It's just the first logical step to try. I'm assuming it's your fullbacks who do this and not anyone else?

If Work Ball Into Box doesn't do the trick, it could be the restriction of Risky Passes with Retain Possession, looking at it again, so adding Risky Passes is a 2nd possibility then. I wouldn't have thought that it is this, but I also never use Retain Possession, so it's possible.

[ilkork]

1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

I'm assuming it's your fullbacks who do this and not anyone else?

Both my Complete Wing Backs and my Wingers.

3 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

If Work Ball Into Box doesn't do the trick, it could be the restriction of Risky Passes with Retain Possession, looking at it again, so adding Risky Passes is a 2nd possibility then. I wouldn't have thought that it is this, but I also never use Retain Possession, so it's possible.

Ok, first I am going to try the "More Risky Passes" for my wing backs.

Kinda reluctant to remove the "Retain Possession" from that control tactic, because I think it will have a bad effect with possession, right?
As for the "Work Ball Into Box" we discussed earlier, without it, I am going to have less possession than when I had with it, right?
If yes, is it going to be that bad or it's ok?

Now, imagine if I remove both "Work Ball Into Box" and "Retain Possession".
It won't be a possession based tactic anymore, would it?

But then, your response may be "ilkork you want everything. You can't have everything, both possession and attack, choose one".
And that makes me sad .

[HUNT3R]

3 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Both my Complete Wing Backs and my Wingers.

Then it is definitely not Risky Passes since your Wingers have it, but are still doing it??

Quote

As for the "Work Ball Into Box" we discussed earlier, without it, I am going to have less possession than when I had with it, right?

Probably, because instead of keeping possession, you're going to send more crosses in and long shots.

 

Whether it's "good" or "bad" is up to you. You wanted the crosses, so that's going to be the way to get crosses.

[ilkork]

Just now, HUNT3R said:

Then it is definitely not Risky Passes since your Wingers have it, but are still doing it??

Well, they cross sometimes when I have the control tactic on, but as I said, about 8 times out of 10 they pass it to my DLP, BWM or AMC instead of crossing (similar situations like the one in the image with Figueiredo).

[ilkork]

Are there any images I could upload from my match analysis?
There are so many options, don't know which ones would qualify.

[ilkork]

@HUNT3R I seem to have confused the pass-cross thing. (I can already imagine you hitting the desk cause of my previous posts, "what is that idiot ilkork saying")

"More Risky Passes" don't affect crosses at all? Neither do "More Direct Passes"?
If yes, then there is no point in adding "More Risky Passes" to my Wing Backs.

So, it's probably the "Work Ball Into Box".

[ndrscr]

Your wingbacks and wingers have the 'cross aim target man' PI... but you don't have a target man?

[ilkork]

5 minutes ago, ndrscr said:

Your wingbacks and wingers have the 'cross aim target man' PI... but you don't have a target man?

I thought that every striker is considered a target man?
And it doesn't matter if it isn't selected as a "Target Man", whatever role (complete forward, poacher, advanced forward, etc) will do?

[herne79]

28 minutes ago, ilkork said:

I thought that every striker is considered a target man?
And it doesn't matter if it isn't selected as a "Target Man", whatever role (complete forward, poacher, advanced forward, etc) will do?

No, the "Target Man" role is a very specific role in FM that has under the hood settings to encourage the rest of your team to seek him out as directly as possible.

[ilkork]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

No, the "Target Man" role is a very specific role in FM that has under the hood settings to encourage the rest of your team to seek him out as directly as possible.

****.
All these matches with "Cross Aim-Target Man"...
I wonder what the players were doing before matches. "Hey, Zivkovic, rock-paper-scissors for today's target man, you in"?

Bring back the option where you had to choose the target man and the box you had to tick ! That way, I could have my poacher set to "Target Man" .

 

Oh well, at least I learned something new, thanks to you.

Now what? Cross Aim-Centre?

[MBarbaric]

6 minutes ago, ilkork said:

Now what? Cross Aim-Centre?

depends. if you have tall players that can outjump the center backs, then float crosses.

if you have quick forwards with good off the ball movement then whipped or low crosses.

[ilkork]

Just now, MBarbaric said:

depends. if you have tall players that can outjump the center backs, then float crosses.

if you have quick forwards with good off the ball movement then whipped or low crosses.

No, I am not talking about the crossing type.
I am talking about "Aim Crosses At" at PIs.

[ilkork]

Update: I've definitely seen some improvement removing the "Work Ball Into Box" TI.
I am watching matches in "Extended" and still saw both wingers and wing backs passing outside the penalty area instead of crossing, but it's definitely not as often as it was (maybe 6 times out of 10 now).
And possession remained at the same levels, it hasn't been reduced.

[yaşar]

How is your results ? Is it successfull tactic or not ?

 

[ilkork]

It is.

The thing is, managing a team like Olympiacos, you won't face many difficulties.
The Greek League is a piece of cake, you will become champions easily.
Same for the Greek Cup.
And with a little bit of luck you will reach the quarter finals in the Champions League.

That's the case for the next 3-5 years ingame. Then you may achieve more.

And for guys like me (being a cheater by using the genie scout for scouting), it's not that hard to find the best available players for my formation .

As for the tactic, it's almost perfect. Again, for my Olympiacos side.
And it's almost perfect cause I still have some mistakes that need to be corrected. For example that last one with the "work ball into box".
I removed it and now the team is f... perfect! I don't even have to use my attacking tactic.

Check this. 5 minutes ago I finished my match against Shakhtar for the Ch. League group stage.
I used the attacking tactic for a total of 20 minutes. For 70 minutes I was playing with the control tactic.
It was the best game I've played so far. I didn't even make one substitution.

Spoiler

Btw, it's on FM16.

[Goosewinkle]

Ugh, why would "work ball into box" reduce crosses??  I thought that instruction was to prevent wasteful long shots?

 

[HUNT3R]

3 hours ago, Goosewinkle said:

Ugh, why would "work ball into box" reduce crosses??  I thought that instruction was to prevent wasteful long shots?

 

It does do that too and to answer you : Because the intention is to work the ball into the box. To do that, long shots and crosses are reduced.

[Goosewinkle]

I just looked at the tooltip...so is the idea that "work ball into box" prevents risky, speculative crosses, but allows crosses that are more of a sure thing?

[ilkork]

1 hour ago, Goosewinkle said:

but allows crosses that are more of a sure thing?

Sometimes, yes. I think that depends on the intelligent each player has, creative freedom...
As I said, my problem was that 8 out 10 times I would see no crosses with the "work ball into box" despite the aggressive PIs. But I would still see crosses 2 out 10 times.

[yonko]

This to me is a perfect example of how people overcomplicate their tactics with too many instructions without even knowing what each instruction does. And when it all doesn't go according to plan, then comes the confusion what to change and why.

Sorry, don't mean to have a dig at you @ilkork per se, but I thought I should point it out to others to learn from this.

Remember, keep it simple people.

[ilkork]

3 minutes ago, yonko said:

This to me is a perfect example of how people overcomplicate their tactics with too many instructions without even knowing what each instruction does. And when it all doesn't go according to plan, then comes the confusion what to change and why.

Sorry, don't mean to have a dig at you @ilkork per se, but I thought I should point it out to others to learn from this.

Remember, keep it simple people.

It's fine, you are right.

I wanted to create a possession based tactic (received knowledge from this excellent thread) but it was too cautious and I play with wingers and complete wing backs.

[fmFutbolManager]

You don't need retain possession to create a possession oriented system.

I use mixed passes, and currently sit with 61% average possession for the league and 87% pass completion. In eight matches we've completed almost 6,000 passes, and the next team is on 2,400 so you can certainly achieve possession without it.

You're already playing a lower tempo within your control mentality. So this is already going to slow things down and build up play slowly and keep possession of the ball. Added to that you're instructing your players to play short passes. I'd argue for removing this TI as well to try add a little creative play to your build up. 

[ilkork]

2 hours ago, fmFutbolManager said:

You don't need retain possession to create a possession oriented system.

You're already playing a lower tempo within your control mentality. So this is already going to slow things down and build up play slowly and keep possession of the ball. Added to that you're instructing your players to play short passes. I'd argue for removing this TI as well to try add a little creative play to your build up. 

No offense, but, Cleon says that "Retain Possession" is essential for possession based tactics (here).
Who am I supposed to listen to?

Besides, now that I have removed the "Work Ball Into Box", it's less annoying.
I still see the annoying "pass it to the DLP outside the penalty area instead of crossing" from both my wingers and complete wing backs, but with less frequency.
What will happen if I also remove the "Retain Possession" with my average possession?

Yes, you seem like you know your stuff (I like your strikerless thread ).
Can you be 100% sure that, if I also remove the "Retain Possession", I'll have more crosses or "risky" play without sacrificing possession?
Can you be 100% sure that I will have at least 60% possession without it, in every match?
If yes, I am willing to give it a try.

[fmFutbolManager]

No offence taken. I'm just trying to help and offer some advice. If that is what Cleon says, then I respectfully disagree. Here's why...

I guess the key question is why are you wanting to keep so much possession? Are you using it as a philosophy or a tool?

[fmFutbolManager]

Oh and to add, no I cannot 100% guarantee any of those things as I've not seen how your matches play out with that system. If you just want to achieve 60% possession then keep it on, it seems to be working. 

However, bear in mind that crosses are a surefire way to concede possession. Look at the above, I have the best completion rate for crosses, and that's still only at 14% completed. I try limit crosses where we can as I prefer to use forward running 1v1 chances rather than crossing it for someone to only connect with 14% of the time.

[ilkork]

50 minutes ago, fmFutbolManager said:

Are you using it as a philosophy or a tool?

It's been set as a philosophy.
Tbh, I don't really like it (I like attacking football), but I don't want to remove it cause I take it personally "I am Olympiacos, the best team in Greece, I should have the most possession".
Yes, it's stupid, I know .
But it also helps with not conceding.
I can't play with my attacking tactic for a whole season and have scores such as 4-2, 5-3, 3-1. I like clean sheets.

36 minutes ago, fmFutbolManager said:

I try limit crosses where we can as I prefer to use forward running 1v1 chances rather than crossing it for someone to only connect with 14% of the time.

But you are not playing with wingers, are you?

I always play with wingers (well, sometimes while in a match I swap them to inside forwards, with opposite foot).
Right now, I am playing every match with my attacking tactic for a total of 15' (or 30' depending the match) and I swap it with the control tactic for the rest of match time.
If by removing the "Retain Possession" from my control tactic will give the results I want, I'll definitely try it.

Thank you for your time.

[WhyMe]

If you do remove retain possession you will probably need to replace it with shorter passing or your possession numbers will very likely go down go down.  Shorter passing, like retain possession also shortens passing length but it does not reduce risky passes so it can offer more penetration in exchange for a little less possession (but not usually too much less).  This might be what you need.

[ilkork]

I will give it a try, thank you too .

[fmFutbolManager]

1 hour ago, ilkork said:

It's been set as a philosophy.
Tbh, I don't really like it (I like attacking football), but I don't want to remove it cause I take it personally "I am Olympiacos, the best team in Greece, I should have the most possession".
Yes, it's stupid, I know .
But it also helps with not conceding.
I can't play with my attacking tactic for a whole season and have scores such as 4-2, 5-3, 3-1. I like clean sheets.

But you are not playing with wingers, are you?

I always play with wingers (well, sometimes while in a match I swap them to inside forwards, with opposite foot).
Right now, I am playing every match with my attacking tactic for a total of 15' (or 30' depending the match) and I swap it with the control tactic for the rest of match time.
If by removing the "Retain Possession" from my control tactic will give the results I want, I'll definitely try it.

Thank you for your time.

I play with wing-backs, who play like auxiliary wingers. But the problem you have with wingers is that they're going to dribble. If they dribble there's a chance of them conceding possession. Using retain possession lowers the tempo and really shortens your passing. And if you don't have players supporting this can result in long shots or players trying to dribble their way out of trouble.

[ilkork]

21 minutes ago, fmFutbolManager said:

But the problem you have with wingers is that they're going to dribble. If they dribble there's a chance of them conceding possession.
And if you don't have players supporting this can result in long shots or players trying to dribble their way out of trouble.

That's why I have the "Closing Down Much More" TI, so to deal with it. And I also have Complete Wing Backs, so to offer a lot of support.
-I have most players at Support Duty. Not one in Attack Duty.
-I have them to "Roam From Positions" so to offer more support.
-And I also have the "Dribble Less" TI and no "Shoot on Sight" TI.

21 minutes ago, fmFutbolManager said:

Using retain possession lowers the tempo and really shortens your passing.

Actually, that's what I want with the control tactic. I have even set the TI's "Lower Tempo" and "Shorter Passing".


Did I misunderstand something?
I have no problem with my wingers having more creative freedom, I am fine with that. I just want them to cross more often.
For my complete wing backs, I only want them to cross more often.
The "not crossing very often" is my issue and only with the control tactic.

Check my TIs and PIs for the control tactic (they are in the OP).

[WhyMe]

Just as a side note I think you may have slightly miss-interpreted what Cleon said in his possession thread.  At the start of the thread he lists 9 instructions that can be used to create a possession based system but he also states that to use all of them would be overkill.  Unless I've missed it he doesn't say you have to use "retain possession" just that it is one of the ones you can use.  In his example he does select it along with 4 or 5 of the other 8.  However, he does not include work ball and shorter passing in his system as it would lead to possession for possessions sake such as your wingers and/or fullbacks retaining possession instead of crossing.  Likely due to the fact that at the moment you use all the instructions listed except highly structured team shape.

My system uses a very different formation to yours and does not include wingers only attacking wingbacks in a 3 at the back system.  However, I also based my system on Cleon's possession thread and I lead the league in crosses completed and I'm 3rd in cross completion percentage.  I am also top of the league for possession by over 3.5% and in pass completion also by about 3% so what you are after is likely possible you just need to tone down the 'overkill'.

In case you were wondering the possession instructions from Cleon's thread I use are roam from positions, dribble less, shorter passing and work ball.  However, I play standard/structured so on control you would obviously need to add lower tempo I would expect.

[Rashidi]

I just read the first few posts and a few things seem out of whack.

If you want crosses delivered in then you need to create the conditions for them, this includes duties that attack the space on the flanks, the right amount of risk and good use of shouts.

1. Players need to attack space, you need duties that do that or you need to create the chance for overlapping play. In one you are using attack duties in the other these are support duties. So both can attack space, it's just how you set your tactic up. For example I could use a WP(a) on one flank and a FB(s) to go down the flanks on overlap or a WM(s) and a Fb(a) combo both work, but in different ways.  I could think of another 3 combinations but my point is that this is about the right combination.

2. That's the first step, now you need to think of ways to exploit this. Say you play deep against an attacking side then Pass into space becomes an option.

3. Some shouts make no sense

Retain possession reduced risky passes why use it?

Work Ball into Box reduces crosses, if you want to ping crosses don't use it. If you do use it then understand how it works best.

Just some observations. By the way you can generate high possession numbers easily without using Retain Possession. I have generated 80% possession without using that shout a few times now. 

 

[ilkork]

I have no problem with my attacking tactic.
My attacking tactic is fine. I just posted it in case it's informative.

My problem is with my control tactic.
I want a tactic that favours possession. And I want crosses because I am using wingers.
I don't like to see situations like the image in the OP. I want both my wingers and complete wing backs to cross more often instead of passing the ball to my DLP, BWM or AP.
 

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

If you want crosses delivered in then you need to create the conditions for them, this includes duties that attack the space on the flanks, the right amount of risk and good use of shouts.

You say that I should change the duty for my wingers from Support to Attack?

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

now you need to think of ways to exploit this. Say you play deep against an attacking side then Pass into space becomes an option.

Should I add the "Exploit Right/Left Flank" TIs? I am not sure if Pass Into Space will help towards possession.

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Some shouts make no sense

Which ones?

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Retain possession reduced risky passes why use it?

So to favour possession?

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Work Ball into Box reduces crosses, if you want to ping crosses don't use it. If you do use it then understand how it works best.
Just some observations. By the way you can generate high possession numbers easily without using Retain Possession. I have generated 80% possession without using that shout a few times now.

Yes, I have removed the "Work Ball Into Box" TI since HUNT3R's advice. And things are a little bit better towards my problem.
Now average possession is at this levels:

Spoiler

I am gonna experiment with removing the "Retain Possession" from my control tactic.

[fmFutbolManager]

If you cross more you're going to give up possession more, so bear this in mind.

[ilkork]

26 minutes ago, fmFutbolManager said:

If you cross more you're going to give up possession more, so bear this in mind.

Yes.
But, my possession is only at 60.53% because I swap my control tactic with my attacking tactic while in a match.
The attacking tactic is so not in favour of possession. It's very aggressive.

If I could somehow make my control tactic a little bit more aggressive (by having more crosses) I could only use that for a whole season without the need of swapping tactics.