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Guest El Payaso

[Discussion] Transfer system overhaul

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Guest El Payaso

Or at least make it less overpowering. No team in the real life has an all-knowing assistant manager that can filter you unrealistic transfers. Even the scouts don't get that information by just watching games. It's a handy tool but also one of the most overpowering one which doesn't exist IRL. 

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No team in real life has players accurately rated from 1-20 on a large number of attributes, but that doesn't mean that removing that part of the core functionality of the game just because a minority of players prefer not to look at them is a good idea...

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21 minutes ago, El Payaso said:

Or at least make it less overpowering. No team in the real life has an all-knowing assistant manager that can filter you unrealistic transfers. Even the scouts don't get that information by just watching games. It's a handy tool but also one of the most overpowering one which doesn't exist IRL. 

If I was being picky I would say every team in the country has access to a very detailed database for as little as £20 :brock:

More seriously though whilst I would agree the player search used to be a bit OP much has changed in the last few years.  The players that come up on the player search are based on the scouting of the club and no longer show every player like they used to.  If you also use fog of war then much of what you see is limited.  For top end players you might get a few attributes but little else while lower down you pretty much get a name & position, nothing else without sending scouts.

In terms of your AM filtering any search for unrealistic targets its the type of job you would delegate IRL, maybe not to your AM but its realistic for someone less senior to filter out those that are not interested.

Finally if in doubt you can do what I do and never use the search at all.  I stick to a shortlist and the only players that get added to it are those that are found by either scouts, DOF suggestions or staff suggestions.

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Guest El Payaso
17 hours ago, enigmatic said:

No team in real life has players accurately rated from 1-20 on a large number of attributes, but that doesn't mean that removing that part of the core functionality of the game just because a minority of players prefer not to look at them is a good idea...

This isn't related any way to the topic. You have to display the attributes somehow but you don't need to have a tool that makes one of the hardest part of real life football (squad building) easier than it should be. Of course there is a possibility to skip using this like @Cougar2010 said but also by doing that you notice that it is possible (and more challenging) to build squads without it so why does the game need this OP tool? Especially the fact that you have a list of 'realistic transfers' available even before you have done any scouting at all is way off.  

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Are you suggesting removing the player search so that when signing players you have no idea what their attributes are? Well, how else are you supposed to buy players/know who to buy? You can't watch the players like a real life manager, so there needs to be a way (attributes) of getting a rough idea of someones ability. 

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It's possible to skip looking at the attributes and just look at the polygon, performances and scout ratings too, but most players don't. Same applies to the player search, which as Cougar says is actually heavily influenced by scouting (and the theoretical knowledge of players you've selected) unless you turn the fog of war off, and is the core function for finding players unless you prefer to search for them in other ways or rely solely on recommendations. 

Even if realism was FM's primary objective over playability and all players must be made to follow the same approach, the idea that real life managers don't have the ability to search for centre backs over six foot tall that have made regular appearances this season in a database simply isn't true. They don't even need to shell out for a copy of FM or analytics package these days, and even before that they could probably think of a list of defenders they've watched who are quick enough for their back line and technically adequate from their existing knowledge without having to browse other club's squad lists, ask their players or task someone to scout their division. The challenging bit about building a squad isn't finding players of a particular type and level that might be available, it's getting value for money, integrating them into the squad and tactical setup, and spotting the ones which are little known or have significant room to improve, which you do need the scouts for.

Also,  real life clubs have a bit more time to have tedious interactions with people who will never be interested in joining their club, on account of hiring players being a large part their staff's full time job. Consider the "realistic targets" filter on the player search to be outsourcing that bit, as well as [mainly] the application of common sense (not much point in my Allsvenskan club chasing after these Premier League stars even though I know their abilities well, so I'd really rather not see them dominate the list of possible new left back signings)

Edited by enigmatic

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I think the player search is pretty realistic ... the more scouting you do the more players you have in your database and the more knowledge you have about those players.

Clubs use scouts and analysts to create their own player databases - then can use filters and searches to specify certain profiles.

Southampton have been particularly successful doing this. They create a profile of each of their academy players... then where there are gaps in type of player they need, they use the scouting network to create global databases... and from that database find the missing player. That way they always have academy players that can slot into the first team.

More importantly, when they need to sign someone, they have their targets identified before they approach for their player even comes in. i.e. they signed Oriol Romeu before selling Wanyama just because they knew they would lose Wanyama sooner or later. Tadic was on a list of replacements for Lallana two or three seasons before Lallana was sold.

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Guest El Payaso
On 20.4.2017 at 11:38, David_H1997 said:

Are you suggesting removing the player search so that when signing players you have no idea what their attributes are? Well, how else are you supposed to buy players/know who to buy? You can't watch the players like a real life manager, so there needs to be a way (attributes) of getting a rough idea of someones ability. 

Nope I am not. The main thing that bugs me about the player search is the fact that you have a 'all-knowing' assistant manager that even before any scouting work is able to tell you which are the 'realistic transfers' while this IRL is one of the main things that teams struggle with. For example teams that have been chasing Griezmann and Carrasco IRL have ran into the issue that even though they thought they could get these players, they are actually not willing to leave Atletico Madrid so all the time has been going to waste. Also Chelsea during last summer had huge difficulties on finding a centre back as they approached many but had difficulties to get bids accepted and also players snubbing them when the initial bids were accepted. Only on the deadline day they got David Luiz after trying to search a player through the whole summer. With the current system you cannot run into long (unsuccessfull) transfer sagas like this as you have all knowing scouts and assistant managers that can both tell the transfer values needed and whether the players are interested to join you. Also the whole negotiation system makes it easier to sign/sell as during one session you can quite easily negotiate your way through while in real life you might chase a player for several transfer windows without success (De Gea to Real Madrid and Griezmann to United for example).

So currently in the game I would claim that if there is a player that I need, I'm easily able to find him and also easily able to negotiate the transfer with all the information I'm getting from my staff. So for me it wouldn't make no harm for the game to make these a little bit more complicated and tough. Much is also down to your staff's ability which for is too good: just by watching month or two they can precisely tell how good a 15-year-old can be in the future, without talking to the players they are able to tell whether they are interested to join your club or not and without any bids placed they can pinpoint the value you need to pay for the player and how much you need to pay for the club. 

Summa summarum: too user friendly.

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Ah, I get you now. Yeah that's fair enough, signing players can often be too easy, depends if you're trying to sign players within your scouting network though. I tried signing some out of network players just yesterday. Not only did I have no idea of even the range of their attribute values, but also whether they'd want to join or not. This led to a few collapsed deals.

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Guest El Payaso

This summer once again has showed us that finding players and sealing deals IRL is much harder than it is in the game. What used to happen for example in the game was that Antoine Griezmann always joined PSG already in January 2017, this was changed with further updates but basically without tinkering any of Griezmann's attributes he always ended up to Manchester United. But what happens in real life is that Atletico aren't pushovers and they tied Griezmann with a new contract instead of letting him go to United even though this was strongly suggested to happen. And this is not anywhere near the only example of this. 

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/12691/10929681/southampton-to-keep-virgil-van-dijk-and-cedric-soares-after-agreement-with-mauricio-pellegrino

Even Southampton are fighting for players that are being chased by big teams such as Liverpool and Chelsea and even Barcelona. They might eventually lose them but at least they are not making it easy for them by being pushovers. 

In FM you could negotiate these deals in one day with ease and couple of days later you would sign the players. With the current transfer system these kind of frustrating transfer sagas are really unlike to happen.

It's true that money has influenced on loyalty to stay in clubs but there are still plenty of examples of players who opt to stay even in smaller clubs and teams fighting with their maximum effort to keep their key players.

Summed: the transfer system needs a serious overhaul and all the tools that make it easy to make transfers, should be removed or made less effective for us to use.

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AI squad building needs an overhaul.

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Assman/scout and especially the filters is not "all knowing" about players which are likely to join you.

If you're managing a smaller club you can put that filter on and even some of the players showing up in your feed who are on free transfers or running down their contract at a club not playing them will refuse to open negotiations with you at a particular time.

But it does filter out the noise of players who are obviously too big for the club; I assume it's mostly a reputation based filter. Though I've got as far as contract discussions with some of them.

Needless to say, others who are "interested in transfer" will accept counter offers from their club, especially if they have are based at a club they have some affection for and the foreign club isn't really a bigger draw. Griezmann was interested in joining Man Utd, but not so interested he wasn't willing to sign a juicy new contract at Atletico with a higher release clause instead of forcing a move. It's not like this never happens in FM...

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I agree with your point that the transfers in FM could generally be more realistic and failures on this front could happen a bit more often but on the other hand I guess the whole thing has to be streamlined somehow and it's not easy for SI to find the right balance for this. Also you need to take into account that when managing a less known club (example: my Allsvenskan team, currently playing in UEL and with a good chance of winning the league) it's not as easy to find a good player and not spend a fortune which many clubs simply don't have. Or you might find some that seem to be great but they don't perform in your team. Some players are not filtered as unrealistic targets and my scout reports they could be bought for so much but then after I put the offer in their club want 10 times more which makes him unrealistic target. Same applies to their contract expectations sometimes. Probably better to leave it as it is and, as other say, there is always an option of not using the player search. Works for me but tbh I'm not bothered by transfer sagas since these involve mainly big clubs which I never manage anyway.

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Guest El Payaso

Well I would say that AI behavior is one step ahead as for us human users it is quite easy to keep hold of players even when we are not managing one of the biggest sides. One thing would be to add a possibility to 'match or exceed' the deal that the offering club has done for the player which would make it more likely that the player would opt to stay. By increasing Griezmann's loyalty to 20 I was able to make the player actually sign a new contract with Atletico instead of moving to United in 2018. Generally players should be more willing to stay if they don't have concerns at the current club and much less likely to get upset when the owning team rejects bids for the players. In my opinion it is quite uncommon that players become noticeably angry even when they are willing to move and a bid is rejected. Alex Sandro for example didn't whine to the press when Juventus rejected a bid from Chelsea. They might be willing to move but also should be possible to persuade them stay. 

I would also change the negotiating system which currently makes it super easy to negotiate a bid in matter of minutes or seconds while in real life it seems that teams tend to place a bid which is answered after some time and this goes on. The older FMs had a transfer system like this which was much more challenging.

I also would stand behind my point that the player search is an overpowering tool which makes it super easy to find players. Of course the staff do make mistakes on valuating which players are willing to move but more often than not they do get it spot on. And if you have a list of thousands of players that your staff knows like their best buddies: "never met this guy or had chat with him, but somehow I know that he wants to join our club". 

Something really needs to be done here to make long term saves more challenging. I know that every time when I actually do my best with the game it's easy for me to build a all winning team in just two or three seasons with a club that IRL hasn't won anything for 50 or so years. This is mainly down to poorly represented transfer market. First season I will slightly or more overachieve, during the summer transfer window I buy the players that I need without any AI teams making it hard for me (by offering new contracts or actually competing to sign those players) to do it, the second season I either won the trophy or make a title challenge and on third season the team will be so strong that I have to do quite badly not to win the title. 

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I don't actually think the thousands of players the staff think are "realistic transfers" require any superhuman level of knowledge whatsoever. I mean, if you gave me a list of thousands of players who might be a realistic transfer to a good Championship club, I'd basically take a list of professional footballers playing worldwide - these tools actually exist - and cross off the ones playing regularly in the top three divisions in Europe (and maybe first teamers at better Championship clubs, and ones known to be on enormous contracts in China/US/Russia). If you asked me which ones might be a realistic transfer to a League 2 club I'd restrict it to players at smaller English and Scottish clubs and transfer listed players in the division above. Which afaik is pretty much what the "realistic transfers" player search function does, albeit probably using the "reputation" variable as the main heuristic.  

Same goes for the scouting, which offers a bit more nuance on levels of interest. I'm pretty sure scouts IRL chat with players' agents if and when they can (and can make an educated guess that Livermore might have some interest in a move to Bournemouth but Mbappe wouldn't). It's still not too accurate, especially not on fees and wage demands, which is good.

I agree that it'd be good if clubs intentionally stalled negotiations more often (and for that matter if I had the option of saying "we'll come back to you later in the summer" when an agent makes a wage demand I can't afford) and if most players were a little less desperate to move to similar-standard clubs but that sounds like it could be the basis for a different feature request. 

 

Ultimately the reason why building a powerful squad is easier than real life is less because it's difficult for real life managers to identify players they can buy, and more because real life managers are necessarily more conservative in the transfer market because real life players' ability to pass, anticipate and concentrate isn't some deterministic value which can be readily seen and compared between players when deciding that player Y definitely has the skillset to spend £3m a year on. Memphis turning out not to be good enough to enhance Man Utd's attacking options despite impressive Eredivisie performances is far more of an "impossible in FM" scenario than Griezmann staying. But I'm not sure that throwing the entire game out is the way forward either :)

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Guest El Payaso
On 30.6.2017 at 16:31, enigmatic said:

Ultimately the reason why building a powerful squad is easier than real life is less because it's difficult for real life managers to identify players they can buy, and more because real life managers are necessarily more conservative in the transfer market because real life players' ability to pass, anticipate and concentrate isn't some deterministic value which can be readily seen and compared between players when deciding that player Y definitely has the skillset to spend £3m a year on. 

I think that IRL clubs do have good amount of knowledge of players' abilities through scouting and the managers themselves are more than willing to splash the cash. But the thing in many clubs is that the board or chairman is highly influencing on who the money can be spent. Also the fact is that many more players are willing to stay in their current clubs and teams are battling much harder to keep their players. 

Lets look for example Chelsea. The saga with Lukaku and Alex Sandro just goes on and on and on. I think that the coast might be clear now for Lukaku as Everton have signed the replacement in form of Sandro Ramirez but still it cannot be said that even though Lukaku seems willing to move back, the saga has still been long and frustrating. With Alex Sandro the situation is still not clear. It looked certain at some point but now it seems that Juventus will tie him with a new contract. Again a frustrating and long running transfer story for the Premier league champions. 

These deals would be tied in matter of few clicks of continue on FM. 

http://metro.co.uk/2017/06/28/ryan-sessegnon-rejects-transfer-interest-from-liverpool-and-manchester-united-and-signs-new-fulham-deal-6742005/

This for example wouldn't happen on FM. 

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Guest El Payaso

Chelsea linked to Morata. Basically a done deal. The player wants to go to Chelsea and Conte likes him! Oh and also Conte doesn't like him but Emenalo likes him. But it's done deal and Conte chose him!
...actually nothing may happen...but Chelsea are getting Alex Sandro! Done deal! Players wants to leave! Chelsea offered too much money for him! He is basically a blue! ....oh but not really since....eh this won't happen..
But don't you worry! LUKAKU IS COMING BACK! Everton brought millions of players with the money they'll receive from Chelsea for Romelu and this is clear sign he is signing with Chelsea. He also liked tweets about Chelsea. It's done deal we're waiting for first of July for confirmation. And this is a Conte transfer. But it's not. It's Emenalo transfer. But it's not that either. Also...he's going to United.
But Rudiger is in London and he completed the medical! But..not really since...ya know..
And wait! BAKAYOKO! Oh boi he is basically a blue! He wasn't part of the reveal of the new Monaco jerseys so he is officially headed to Chelsea. But...not really.
We are left with Willy on our hands.
10/10 transfer rumours would read again

And here we summarize the transfer summer for the champions so far. Really easy to get the players they want...

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@El Payaso

Honestly I think you are underestimating FM somewhat.

Sure its not going to have the amount of rumours we see IRL mainly because IRL the media have around 100 days to fill and its a case of if there is a gap something will appear to fill it.  In FM users want to work their way through pre-season at a decent rate and don't want to hear 100s of rumours every game day.

That doesn't mean stories and transfers can't stretch over windows.

Take my own save for instance I finished the season last night and have a number of teams interested in several of my players.

A) 19yo GK - A player with huge potential and has a lot of clubs across Europe interested in him.  Last summer I rejected a number of low bids and kept him happy by giving him a new contract and promising him first team football.  January again saw consistent rumours all window and the rumours have already started this summer but I haven't received any bids yet.

B) 27yo DM - A really good player but doesn't fit into my tactic very well.  I use him as a rotation player but other teams have recognised this and again the rumours have started but I'll hold out until I get a good offer.  Again this is a transfer that has continued over 2-3 windows.

I have others as well but you get the idea.

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Guest El Payaso

@Cougar2010 

I don't know how this is related as I am only talking about how easy it is for us to be able to sign and keep those players that we want. 

The thing is that the AI is not keeping hold of those players and they aren't even joining the competition when human managers bid for players that have interest from AI clubs. Also the game is completely lacking on those loyal players that opt to stay or sign new contracts if you try to get them. 

The current transfer system with the negotiation system and player search with 'realistic transfers' makes it even easier to get the deals done and rapidly. 

The way this transfer system works at the moment is one of the main reasons why the game is as easy as it is at the moment. 

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Removing the realistic transfer option is an option or limiting it to only show players who have been scouted enough to reveal their interest level seems like a reasonable compromise. 

 

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Guest El Payaso
24 minutes ago, Barside said:

Removing the realistic transfer option is an option or limiting it to only show players who have been scouted enough to reveal their interest level seems like a reasonable compromise. 

 

Yes it can but it could be removed completely. And also one of my points is that the staff can filter out unrealistic targets even before you have done any scouting. 

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tbh this is why I do not use the known players list, I just rely on the scouted players list & my own recollection of players who've impressed when playing against my team.

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In other words, you can play in a realistic way if you choose to. The fact other people might want the easy route shouldn't bother anyone.

Making things more difficult (realistic) for everyone would be a bad move for SI, at least until they fix the criminally poor in-game documentation and user feedback in tactical department of the game. People struggle with tactics massively, and adding difficulty in other areas would be disastrous.

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3 hours ago, Barside said:

Removing the realistic transfer option is an option or limiting it to only show players who have been scouted enough to reveal their interest level seems like a reasonable compromise.

I don't think it should be removed all together but limiting it to players who have been scouted enough to show they are interested seems sensible.

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4 hours ago, El Payaso said:

@Cougar2010 

I don't know how this is related as I am only talking about how easy it is for us to be able to sign and keep those players that we want. 

The thing is that the AI is not keeping hold of those players and they aren't even joining the competition when human managers bid for players that have interest from AI clubs. Also the game is completely lacking on those loyal players that opt to stay or sign new contracts if you try to get them. 

The current transfer system with the negotiation system and player search with 'realistic transfers' makes it even easier to get the deals done and rapidly. 

The way this transfer system works at the moment is one of the main reasons why the game is as easy as it is at the moment. 

It mostly links back to reputation.

If you are a high reputation club then yes its easier to keep players unless they become unhappy, perhaps the answer to that is players becoming unhappy quicker for lack of game time but then some users seem to have an issue with that now although I'm not sure why.

Further down the pecking order though its a different matter.  Looking at my own save at Pogon the Polish Ekstraklasa is a 3* league currently ranked 23rd while at Pogon there are 4/5 teams with a higher rep within Poland.  Currently in July 14 of my 25 players in the first team are wanted by other clubs with another five just signed new contracts so basically a few weeks ago 80% of my first team was wanted by other clubs and I've already accepted bids for two of them and turned down bids for around 6/7 others.

Could there be more activity? Sure and it probably should be harder to keep players at top rep clubs.

In terms of negotiations you have to cater for all and having deals being decided over several game weeks/months probably wouldn't be popular with a lot of users.  At the moment you do get situations where a player accepts several offers and then takes 7-10 in game days to decide which club to join.

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Guest El Payaso

Well I summarize my thoughts one more time as there is a clear misunderstanding.

- The AI. They should be both more active on competing with the human players when signing players and also offering new contracts when you place an offer which would make it much harder to actually get the player that you want and make you wait for several transfer windows or find an alternative. Every signing basically should be a struggle.

- Players themselves should be less whiny: not get angered always when you reject a bid even from a smaller or similar reputation clubs. There are many players IRL that opt to stay even when they get an offer from a larger club. It's fairly uncommon that players start publicly whining when a bid has been rejected. If there is no immediate concern currently the players should be more likely to accept the decision that 'we don't want to sell you'.

- The board should also be influencing on signings. For example in Chelsea Emenalo and Abra both have their say on who you should sign and same goes for example in Real Madrid. Currently the manager has single handedly full control on transfers. 

- All the tools that help us find the right players with ease should be nullified somehow. For me the current player search system is too strong tool.

- The negotiation system. You can really easily negotiate really big differences in one or two minutes to make a successful deal. For me the old system where you placed a bid which is answered after some time made it much more realistic and challenging both with transfer bids and contract offers and maybe it would be a good idea to revert back to it.

For me the current system is that for human users it is really easy to keep hold of the important players and if you want to sign some player in the transfer window, it usually is really easy for you to get that player. This should be made a lot harder for us as we see all the time IRL that the transfer market is one of the hardest things to be successful in. Even if you have the money.

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7 hours ago, El Payaso said:

Well I summarize my thoughts one more time as there is a clear misunderstanding.

- The AI. They should be both more active on competing with the human players when signing players and also offering new contracts when you place an offer which would make it much harder to actually get the player that you want and make you wait for several transfer windows or find an alternative. Every signing basically should be a struggle.

- Players themselves should be less whiny: not get angered always when you reject a bid even from a smaller or similar reputation clubs. There are many players IRL that opt to stay even when they get an offer from a larger club. It's fairly uncommon that players start publicly whining when a bid has been rejected. If there is no immediate concern currently the players should be more likely to accept the decision that 'we don't want to sell you'.

- The board should also be influencing on signings. For example in Chelsea Emenalo and Abra both have their say on who you should sign and same goes for example in Real Madrid. Currently the manager has single handedly full control on transfers. 

- All the tools that help us find the right players with ease should be nullified somehow. For me the current player search system is too strong tool.

- The negotiation system. You can really easily negotiate really big differences in one or two minutes to make a successful deal. For me the old system where you placed a bid which is answered after some time made it much more realistic and challenging both with transfer bids and contract offers and maybe it would be a good idea to revert back to it.

For me the current system is that for human users it is really easy to keep hold of the important players and if you want to sign some player in the transfer window, it usually is really easy for you to get that player. This should be made a lot harder for us as we see all the time IRL that the transfer market is one of the hardest things to be successful in. Even if you have the money.

1. Already happens - if the AI wants a player it will general bid when you do, just because the AI appears in the Wanted list doesn't mean they actually want him, in this version they tend to shortlist several players and then go for the one they want or can get, for example this season I'd had a bid and contract agreed for a Striker only for Monaco to make a late bid for him and blow my offer out of the water. AI will also offer new contracts if the player demands one after a transfer has been blocked (and if they are a smaller team normally with a release clause, which is generally realistic). Also depending on the player you are after it can take several windows to get them - if a scout report says a team doesn't want to sell then it can take a while to get the player and that's even if you can get them.

2. This depends on the player, I have players who make no response to bids being rejected, others will ask for a new contract but be fine when it's rejected, whilst others I have to promise to sell if a certain bid comes in (though if no bid arrives when the window closes they withdraw the promise) and even if an offer is accepted some of them will sign a new contract if you offer it - several seasons back in my game my Star Striker had a release clause that was activated but I managed to keep him after I offered him a new contract that he accepted instead of moving.

3. This is already in the game (or at least was, I think it has been toned down after people complained about it in previous versions, though I think interact with board option on the transfer screen may have replaced chairman buying players) there is also an option in the staff screen to leave the transfers to your Chairman, DoF etc so if you don't think you should be handling transfers then you have the option not to.

4. Not sure this should really be nullified it's already been restricted compared to older versions (where it would list everyone not just players you have knowledge of), and if anything it's more realistic considering the data clubs now use to target players, and again if you don't want to use it you can just as easily avoid the screen.

5. Not really sure the older system is more realistic (it was also a lot more annoying from a usability point as well) you'd expect most high level talks to be done in person or over the phone which are better reflected by the current system instead of the older system of faxing an offer and waiting a few days for a response. Under the current system transfer talks can drag on especially if you don't just give into their demands, though I would say a go away and think about it respond in contract talks would be an option as at the moment if you cannot agree terms straight away they storm out, when instead they could go away and think about it for a few days before countering.

Of course there are also plenty of people that feel the current system is too hard, there are several threads just in this forum of people complaining they cannot buy players so you're suggestions wouldn't go down well with them :)

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i tend to agree with a lot of these good points raised already.

i personally prefer the idea of playing as realistically as possible, i.e. relying on scout reports and use attribute masking until you've scouted the player a few times.

You can then search through your shortlist of already scouted players and filter via positions/ attributes etc as you would already have that knowledge built up.

perhaps a really nice touch/feature from SI would simply be part of the advanced set up screen when starting a new game.

where you have the boxes for attribute masking etc, could there not simply be a box that says disable player search tool. you could check the box and it would just be disabled in game.

of course you would still want to search through your actual shortlist of scouted and known players etc.

similarly you could still use the search bar (magnifying glass tool) to search for actual known players. i..e in real life i know who Aaron Creswell is, so i can search his name and add him to my shortlist as that's my actual knowledge.

i'm not a computer progammer but would like to think it wouldn't be impossible to disable that feature/screen....

 

I

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Guest El Payaso
On 13.7.2017 at 13:36, michaeltmurrayuk said:

 

1. I don't remember a single case on the latest iterations of the game where I have actually have to fight against an AI team to sign someone. Had one Norwegian club snap up one of my targets on 17 version but only after I had postponed the move for like 4 times as I lacked the funds. Also the contract offering should be happening on those occasions too where the AI has actually accepted a bid but feel that they want to keep the player and can actually tempt the player to stay by offering a better contract. I've also never had to chase anyone for several windows if I have the money.

2. I think that too many of them whine. For example it's quite common scenario to make a player upset even when before the offer from the AI he has been totally happy and the offer actually is coming from a club that would be a sideways move. Like with Athletic Bilbao I have seen those lifelong Bilbao players getting totally mental while I've refused a bid from someone like Lazio who actually aren't a step forward either financially or quality wise. 

3. Of course you can leave it to the staff which is kinda good. But also in many clubs there are limitations on what you can do as a manager in the transfer market. I think that in the game you have a little bit too much power as you are even able to stretch the penny. Would be a good feature if the board would somehow limit your operating in the transfer market. Of course not too much as many users would be finding it annoying and too limiting. 

4. Yes you don't have to use it. But for me for example the knowledge that the staff members is a bit high. For example your AM being able to filter out who wants to join your club even without any scouting and the scouts being able to determine how good a 15-year-old can be. 

5. The feeling that I get from the negotiating system is that it is fairly easy to negotiate successfully and if I'm not totally wrong I've seen IRL teams placing bids for players without knowing if it is going to be accepted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4839920/Chelsea-make-Danny-Drinkwater-bid-worth-30m.html

For example there with Drinkwater. On FM you/they would be able to seal this quite easily within five minutes while to get things agreed IRL it took until the deadline day. 

In total I find operating in the transfer market really easy and basically always if I have someone there in the market that I want, I will get him. While IRL you often have to settle for option three or even not being able to get anyone. This isn't reflected to the game.

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5 hours ago, El Payaso said:

1. I don't remember a single case on the latest iterations of the game where I have actually have to fight against an AI team to sign someone. Had one Norwegian club snap up one of my targets on 17 version but only after I had postponed the move for like 4 times as I lacked the funds. Also the contract offering should be happening on those occasions too where the AI has actually accepted a bid but feel that they want to keep the player and can actually tempt the player to stay by offering a better contract. I've also never had to chase anyone for several windows if I have the money.

2. I think that too many of them whine. For example it's quite common scenario to make a player upset even when before the offer from the AI he has been totally happy and the offer actually is coming from a club that would be a sideways move. Like with Athletic Bilbao I have seen those lifelong Bilbao players getting totally mental while I've refused a bid from someone like Lazio who actually aren't a step forward either financially or quality wise. 

3. Of course you can leave it to the staff which is kinda good. But also in many clubs there are limitations on what you can do as a manager in the transfer market. I think that in the game you have a little bit too much power as you are even able to stretch the penny. Would be a good feature if the board would somehow limit your operating in the transfer market. Of course not too much as many users would be finding it annoying and too limiting. 

4. Yes you don't have to use it. But for me for example the knowledge that the staff members is a bit high. For example your AM being able to filter out who wants to join your club even without any scouting and the scouts being able to determine how good a 15-year-old can be. 

5. The feeling that I get from the negotiating system is that it is fairly easy to negotiate successfully and if I'm not totally wrong I've seen IRL teams placing bids for players without knowing if it is going to be accepted:

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/sport/football/article-4839920/Chelsea-make-Danny-Drinkwater-bid-worth-30m.html

For example there with Drinkwater. On FM you/they would be able to seal this quite easily within five minutes while to get things agreed IRL it took until the deadline day. 

In total I find operating in the transfer market really easy and basically always if I have someone there in the market that I want, I will get him. While IRL you often have to settle for option three or even not being able to get anyone. This isn't reflected to the game.

1. Playing in England I've had the AI beat me to the signing of players many times - both at the top (Monaco example of them beating me to a World Class Striker) and at the bottom going for players on a free or even on loan, I've even had instances where I have trialled in a player only for that to attract the attention of the AI. (If you aren't seeing it it might be in part due to your set up as you said you are playing in Finland with just the major leagues loaded - so if you are the top finnish side the other finnish sides might not be able to attract the players you can, whilst the player isn't good enough for the other active leagues. For chasing players obviously money is the key thing if you are willing to give in to a player and teams demands the transfer will be done quick, if not then it will take time as each side tries to get the other to give in to their demands. (i.e. your Drinkwater example if Chelsea met Leicesters valuation of £40m at the start the transfer would have been done quick).

2. This demands on player personality (plus their agent and various other factors) and is basically a balancing act as there are no absolute rules as to whether a player would kick up a fuss or not and the best way to improve this is to raise the issue in the bugs forum with save games and examples so it can be tweaked in the future. Though FM17 did make some improvements in this area as the players will generally approach you before hand with the reason why they want to move - bigger club, better pay, higher squad status, which gives you a chance to counter the offer if you can.

3. The main problem with this is at the end of the game it is a video game and when SI have attempted to reduced your influence in the past it hasn't gone down well. The boards do limit your transfer budget depending on their attributes some are more willing to let you stretch the finances than others. (Though one of the problems the game has always had is that it is too easy to generate money once you get to a high enough level).

4. These aren't actually that accurate - the AM filter will filter out people you can convince with a pre-contract talk, though again this is also a balancing and gaming aspect - do you want to spend time scouting 1,000 players only for 900 of them to have no interest in signing, I expect the majority don't however their is the option to turn this off if you want. With the scouts if you are using purely in game tools then you won't know for certain how good they'll turn out as staff don't have access to the PA rating and the uncertainty stars add some more uncertainty. The main problem is more that development is a little on the easy side and experienced players can generally spot the players that will make it, though their are several posts around from one of the SI testers that they made changes in FM17 to make it a little more uncertain and unpredictable.

5. For this it largely depends on how you sign players (and their are plenty of threads on with people moaning about how hard it is to sign players) - when you scout a player you get the line about how interested the player and club are with the transfer and the rough amounts - which varies from no interest, some but make me a silly offer, we are interested but more than you want to pay, we are interested and you are happy with the figures - so if you only ever go after players who are dead certain to join it will look easy to sign them, whilst the middle ones will take time depending on the flexibility of the clubs. I'm also not sure the Drinkwater transfer would be done instantly in FM - Leicester wanted £40m, Chelsea offer £23m it's rejected as is a second bid, some time later Drinkwater then hands in a transfer request, before Chelsea return with a £30m bid and then had a £35m bid accepted - the only way that would be done in FM is if you went straight back in with the £35m offer, instead of waiting until deadline day to do the same and also according to reports the main reason the transfer took so long was because Chelsea were after other English players so it's likely Drinkwater wasn't their first choice as both Oxlaide-Chamberlain and Barkley turned them down before they signed Drinkwater. (That kind of transfer is easy to recreate on FM - over half a players value, wait for the player to get upset or tap him up so he hands in a transfer request, then come back on deadline day with a couple of quick fire better bids closer to his valuation. If anything it might be harder on FM if the AI doesn't want to sell him as they'd transfer list him with a £60m valuation)

Also there are plenty of times in FM where you have to settle for your second/third choice - going back to my attempts to sign a World Class Striker - my first choice was Man Citys Striker but they wouldn't sell him, so I moved onto Chelsea's wantaway Striker and I thought I'd got him before Monaco beat him to me, I then went after a Barcelona Striker got a bid accepted only for him to demand twice what I could offer, then made a bid for a Real Madrid striker I'd had on loan but he rejected me, though in the end I got lucky as with City out of Europe their Striker handed in a transfer request on deadline day and I managed to snatch him up just before the window closed - so it took me the whole window to sign a World Class Striker, though of course 18 months later Paris tapped him up and I had to do it all over again (which weirdly went the same way, first choice was a Paris Striker but couldn't get him even for silly money, went after several other strikers and had a transfer all but agreed for a Bayern one when I was altered to the fact that the Paris Striker was now available as he wasn't happy being second fiddle to the guy they'd just signed from me - yes I know I ended up with my first choice in both examples, however by the time they were signed they were my fourth or fifth option).

And regarding the rejected bids you just need to have a look on the forums to see the complaints from people who are moaning that it is impossible to sign Player X - though these users are likely ignoring the line in the scout report that says how likely a player is to leave, and are bidding for players who teams have no interest in selling.

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Guest El Payaso

@michaeltmurrayuk I think that our experiences with the game just differ so much that it is hard to agree on any of this. 

I've mainly had my saves in Spanish La Liga and when not playing with Athletic (limited transfers) I've always felt that it is really easy to improve the club and if I play even with a lower mid table team like for example Real Betis, I will always be battling for the title even on season two. And this is mainly down to the fact that if I want to I can quite easily do really well in the transfer market. Getting the players that I want and need has never been hard as the staff is really skillful in finding them, we have really strong search tools in our hand and then there never seems to be competition when I have found the player(s) that I want.

These experiences run from long amount of versions and on any FM since the 2010s I haven't found it challenging to build a club. I would have really good examples on the Finnish FM community (which has died now) where I did a challenge with QPR in FM 2015 and was using every trick in the book that the game itself had (and nothing outside the game) and it was super easy to build a really good team even after the first season. Season one I took over when they were 18th, guided them to higher mid-table, during the summer did my magic and season two won the Premier league and that was the dynasty done. Okay, it was easy to get the players perform but one of the easiest aspects was to build that team that became a dynasty. 

lllcn.png

I think this is a good screenshot and an indication of how easy the transfer window is to manipulate. Making huge transfers and also getting huge amounts of money from the bigger AI clubs. Especially PSG is like a cow in the game: easy to milk money from them even by selling average players like Lallana, Moreno and Markovic. 

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18 hours ago, El Payaso said:

@michaeltmurrayuk I think that our experiences with the game just differ so much that it is hard to agree on any of this. 

I've mainly had my saves in Spanish La Liga and when not playing with Athletic (limited transfers) I've always felt that it is really easy to improve the club and if I play even with a lower mid table team like for example Real Betis, I will always be battling for the title even on season two. And this is mainly down to the fact that if I want to I can quite easily do really well in the transfer market. Getting the players that I want and need has never been hard as the staff is really skillful in finding them, we have really strong search tools in our hand and then there never seems to be competition when I have found the player(s) that I want.

These experiences run from long amount of versions and on any FM since the 2010s I haven't found it challenging to build a club. I would have really good examples on the Finnish FM community (which has died now) where I did a challenge with QPR in FM 2015 and was using every trick in the book that the game itself had (and nothing outside the game) and it was super easy to build a really good team even after the first season. Season one I took over when they were 18th, guided them to higher mid-table, during the summer did my magic and season two won the Premier league and that was the dynasty done. Okay, it was easy to get the players perform but one of the easiest aspects was to build that team that became a dynasty.

Its almost certainly down to the reputation system and thats the area that needs either reworked or tweaked.

Specifically the league rep which can give a boost to lower rep clubs in a high rep league - making it easier to sign players that would improve a squad.  It also limits high rep clubs in smaller rep leagues making it harder to sign good players.

If I use my current save as an example I am regularly competing for European places in Austria.  The Austrian Premier League is currently ranked 19th on 3* rep which is on a par with the English Championship and top leagues in the likes of Greece, Scotland, Denmark, Serbia, Croatia etc.  My club is one of five who have a club rep of 3.5* and all five are probably being limited rep wise by the league rep of 3*.

To show how this makes it difficult to sign players you just have to look at my shortlist.  It currently contains 1635 players all of which have 3*+ PA.  Of those 1244 are considered a realistic transfer target but only 40 of them have 4* CA which would be what I needed to take the club to the next level.  Compare that to a struggling team in one of the top five leagues and I suspect they would have a lot more choice of players who could significantly improve their squad.

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@El Payaso I agree with you that sometimes it can be too easy to build your squad and hopefully the new dynamics system will teams will be punished if they sell off most of their team like that screenshot says and try and integrate tons of new players, whilst FM17 did make some improvements as if you overachieved with a smaller side the AI took more notice and was more active in trying to unsettle and sign your players, though it was still easy enough to keep the players, and then with the silly money in the Prem not that difficult to replace them (unless you hit the rep ceiling that Cougar2010 alludes to - which also happens in the Prem but can be pushed past fairly quickly in England, though the Prem finances help as Prem teams can outbid any but the elite teams which further reduces competition). Also without the context of the season not sure if there is much wrong with those sales (apart from the amount of them, but then the likes of Dortmund and Monaco in recent years have had their teams stripped after overachieving and would be roughly equivalent to Liverpool just without the Prem Money) well apart from Paris being silly - Moreno at £41m is weird as is them signing three AM's, though at £10m Markovic is likely to be a backup/squad option instead of a starter and the game tends to struggle with the balancing of the Tycoon clubs. You could argue the users signings of Verratti, Jesus and Silva for big money are just as broken - as I expect those bids were silly money responses from the AI designed to scare you off, and if you are signing players for that kind of money their isn't likely to be much competition due to the prices and the AI generally walks away when told not for sale unlike the user.

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Guest El Payaso

I had this thread up in May and it's related to the reputation things. During the first summer the transfer market might be quite good in terms of realistic targets although there are those badly off ones too like being able to sign Donnarumma with a higher mid-table squad and cases like that. But one good season and you're basically a big team and with all the searching tools and skillful staff in your hand it's bound to be (too) easy.

And in terms of those transfers in the screenshot: Moreno and Lallana are both really silly ones as they do not represent the standard that PSG should be buying so basically they throw more than 80 millions for players that probably even won't be used. Wijnaldum isn't on the level that Bayern should be searching for and Lovren most definitely isn't Real Madrid quality. 

The thing with these these transfers seems to be that one good season for a decent player and the bigger AI clubs are willing to silly amount of money for them and many of them don't even get a chance in the bigger team as their level is 'good Premier league/La Liga/Bundesliga player'. And it is fairly easy to make these good or even decent players have a good season even at top level. Someone like Moreno can easily play a 7.5 season in Premier league even though he isn't up to that level according to real life and his attributes. I've had this happen plenty of times with Oscar De Marcos: a good La Liga player with basically awful defensive attributes (db issues) and it's easy to get him be one of the best performing full backs in the game world and then there comes PSG with big pile of cash. Sell and watch him not playing and get him back next summer for peanuts. 

582731d9d07e2_ScreenShot2016-11-12at18_14_20.png.f06679d35d0dddbe7c8962fbcc2c9fd4.png

And... found something worse.

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Guest El Payaso

In term of transfers I think that the game needs more cases like these. I feel that too many players become journeymen in the game. Players such Griezmann and Dybala etc. should be super difficult to sign in the game. 

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On 10/6/2017 at 05:50, L-Wiz said:

where you have the boxes for attribute masking etc, could there not simply be a box that says disable player search tool. you could check the box and it would just be disabled in game.

Whats the point in having this option. Just don't select the button to get to this screen. As mentioned already you don't have to go to this page. Over FM 12-15 I never once touched this screen and simply went on scout recommendations etc.

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