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vanWolfstwinkle

Why is it so hard to beat Manchester United

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They seem unstoppable this year, it's like they are the Barcelona that played against PSG but on FM. They always come at you and somehow find a way to create tap in chance where the player actually passes the ball across goal, but when you want to do it, your players always try to shoot.

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3 hours ago, vanWolfstwinkle said:

They seem unstoppable this year, it's like they are the Barcelona that played against PSG but on FM. They always come at you and somehow find a way to create tap in chance where the player actually passes the ball across goal, but when you want to do it, your players always try to shoot.

Well, they have a lot of technically gifted and strong players, so they're good at taking the ball away and keeping it even under pressure.  The Pogba-Herrera midfield pairing is especially brutal to get through on FM.  With Mourinho they also tend to play a fairly direct style of football, which works well with the pace they have on the wings and the height they have up top with Ibra when it's set up right.

Importantly, they are also managed by a fictional Jose Mourinho who doesn't take an arbitrary dislike to players and so will play his best XI most of the time--as opposed to leaving Mkhitaryan, Martial, Shaw, etc. out.  This fictional Mourinho also does better than the real Mourinho in assigning roles and duties that fit his players.

I think the Luke Shaw issue is the biggest part of their difference from real life.  In FM he is a physically imposing left back who dominates wingers in the air or in the tackle, then brings the ball forward at pace and with skill. Combine him with Martial coming in off the left and it's a real terror for your right-sided players that will knock on all over the pitch.

I only ever really have success against them by sitting deep, tackling their attacking players hard, and then pounding it forward to my advanced players to work against their CBs, who are definitely the weakest segment of the team.

 

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I've got a cracking Leeds saving going, I'm at the point where I'm now a decent CL level side and trying to fight Utd for the title each season, they are too strong at present - the squad is immense!  As said the money also helps, they have signed some really top players on my save.

I will keep aiming to slowly close the gap, but it's very hard as I cannot compete with the wages they offer.  Trying to find the next generation gems early and grow them at the club as I cannot be spending £60m+ on players and paying themn £250k a week at this stage.

I massively lucked out in that I snapped up a young CF at 17 for just £250k who is English but also set to be one of the best strikers in the game, he is 19 now and I cannot find any striker with better stats, regardless of age. 

Edited by mrdanbartlett

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They are very strong this year, guys like depay, shaw, martial and pogba are ridiculously good in game(when comparing to performances in real life), think next year they will fall bk into the pack

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There appears to be some rather serious overestimation of some players in the ManU team. Human nature and all that, it's understandable.

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11 hours ago, vanWolfstwinkle said:

Well, i wasn't expecting that amount of detail but thanks a lot, I'll try using your methods next time

They're one of the very few teams I also regularly struggle to beat, so I strongly empathized with your post.

As the two posters above me also said, I think their squad is more than a touch overrated this year to boot.

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I think it's more to do with the formation Man Utd use in FM17 rather than the team itself. Not many teams FM17 use 4-4-1-1 so it can be tricky working out how to counter it. Personally I've found that a direct 4-1-3-2 works quite well and managed to knock a full strength United out of the FA cup using this shape whilst playing in my first season with Peterborough.

The team I find impossible to beat is spurs, I've managed to get results against most of the other top sides but have yet to win or even draw against Spurs in the League with my only victory over them being in a League Cup semi where they fielded a team of youngsters

Edited by OhHoopedOne

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4 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

There appears to be some rather serious overestimation of some players in the ManU team. Human nature and all that, it's understandable.

I'd say the researcher would find that more than a little insulting, especially if you don't have the evidence to back that up.

Either way, not really the issue here.

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As Tajero says, they are fast direct and aggressive, and FM Mourinho doesn't shy away from using that. The 4-4-1-1 and 4-2-3-1 lend themselves relatively well to direct play, and helps them play some lethal football.

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I really was expecting someone to respond with because they're good lol, on a serious note I find Spurs more unbeatable than United

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2 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

As Tajero says, they are fast direct and aggressive, and FM Mourinho doesn't shy away from using that. The 4-4-1-1 and 4-2-3-1 lend themselves relatively well to direct play, and helps them play some lethal football.

In FM17, 4-2-3-1 is different from the 4-4-1-1 Man Utd use as 9 times out of 10 you can beat 4-2-3-1 with a direct 4-3-1-2. This isn't the case with the 4-4-1-1. The 4-2-3-1 and the 4-4-1-1 may be fairly similar in real life but not in FM and certainly not in FM17

Edited by OhHoopedOne

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39 minutes ago, TheBigBoss said:

I really was expecting someone to respond with because they're good lol, on a serious note I find Spurs more unbeatable than United

Exacly... Spurs even won ucl in my save. they are very good.

 

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31 minutes ago, zigaliro said:

Exacly... Spurs even won ucl in my save. they are very good.

 

The 4-3-1-2 usually works well against a 4-2-3-1 but you get yer erse skelped if you play it against Spurs. The same goes for the 4-1-4-1 which also works well against other teams that use 4-2-3-1

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8 hours ago, OhHoopedOne said:

In FM17, 4-2-3-1 is different from the 4-4-1-1 Man Utd use as 9 times out of 10 you can beat 4-2-3-1 with a direct 4-3-1-2. This isn't the case with the 4-4-1-1. The 4-2-3-1 and the 4-4-1-1 may be fairly similar in real life but not in FM and certainly not in FM17

I play with quite aggressive full backs so I much prefer playing against a 4-4-1-1. Especially when arsenal play their 4-2-3-1 

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17.3 update changed Mourinho pref formationat startup to 4-1-2-3 DM Wide from 4-4-1-1

Don't worry if he underachieves he swithes his pref formation to 4-2-3-1 Wide and the nightmare begins. 

:D

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13 hours ago, zigaliro said:

Exacly... Spurs even won ucl in my save. they are very good.

 

Spurs won the premier league in my 2nd Season, Man Utd in the first. Those two (albeit early on in my save) seem to be dominating, but then again, they have very good players... so is it any great surprise?

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I'm a Spurs fan but started with Cambridge United (my lower league team i got randomly paired with in my Ultimate Soccer Manager days) and i'm now in 2030/31 season and Premier League been won by Arseanl x2 Man Utd x6 Chelsea x4 and Cambridge x2.

Spurs have been richest club at £2b for years even after they were relegated and the great Gary O'Neil got them promoted first time of asking.

Man Utd won it 4x in a row then finished second x4 after that then a 1st then 2nd last season, they are a strong team and i have struggled to beat them, i only have 4 wins in 25 with a -33 goal difference but my last three games were 1-0 3-3 and a 1-0 at OT, first match against them ever in league was a very close :idiot: 7-1 lose.

For me it's been great that Man Utd have been such a great team to have a dominating period in the game, Mourinho is still the manager and has built his team using really quick, strong players, who can move the ball about with ease, he spends between £25m- £200m a year on players who fit his style of a 4-4-1-1 direct style that is pretty much a smash mouth style, they just hit you and run you down and don't care about it. When they go against a team they know they will dominate they play 4-2-3-1 and it's just as scary to play against.

Strong all over the pitch, you can't really pick where the weak link of team is, you could say the keeper then he only conceded 11 in the league last season.

I play a 4-3-1-2 low tempo, short passing, control and a standard mentality and even if i dominate a game against them they can hit me and have hit me on such a quick counter attack.

Under this Mourinho, like others have said he gets the right people to play his way and he doesn't call them out in public and they are a great devastating team.

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20 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

I play with quite aggressive full backs so I much prefer playing against a 4-4-1-1. Especially when arsenal play their 4-2-3-1 

Arsenal are the easiest team to beat using a defensive, direct and structured 4-3-1-2 with two complete wingbacks on attack as fullbacks and i have beaten them with Peterborough using this system, more than once. I have also beaten Dortmund more than once, playing the same way with Mainz( although this was more than five seasons into the game).

Edited by OhHoopedOne

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Central defence is the weakest area for Man U's original DB team. They only really have Smalling. The others aren't good enough. Bailly doesn't really progress enough/at all.

I have a save with them and bought De Vrij and Romagnoli. Smalling became 3rd choice and Jones went to right back to alternate with Eric Dier who I also brought in. 

Edited by permanentquandary

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Mou/ManU after the winter update seemed to get a super boost behind the scenes. And its rather comical in my opinion. I've done multiple saves, and in everyone they always win the league and the CL multiple times in a row. I've begun to think that a few members of SI are huge ManU fans. Because there is no way Mou could pull that off. One and done is his flavor. He has never been able to sustain that level out of any team he has ever managed. Also he isn't a huge baby in the press in the game like he is in real life. Which is super disappointing.

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4 minutes ago, oulzac said:

Mou/ManU after the winter update seemed to get a super boost behind the scenes. And its rather comical in my opinion. I've done multiple saves, and in everyone they always win the league and the CL multiple times in a row. I've begun to think that a few members of SI are huge ManU fans. Because there is no way Mou could pull that off. One and done is his flavor. He has never been able to sustain that level out of any team he has ever managed. Also he isn't a huge baby in the press in the game like he is in real life. Which is super disappointing.

Thats not how it works at all by the way. There is no such thing as a "super boost behind the scenes". The attributes are the attributes.

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Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

Thats not how it works at all by the way. There is no such thing as a super boost behind the scenes.

You know what I mean. They changed something with the stats. Because before the winter update they couldn't win the league. Now they can't not win the league.

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Just now, oulzac said:

You know what I mean. They changed something with the stats. Because before the winter update they couldn't win the league. Now they can't not win the league.

That hasn't happened either.

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They are so good because they are magicians.  Anthony Martial has just run straight through my right back like he was a ghost and scored with ease and that's with this anti collision thing that's meant to exist these days!!  It's always the same at Old Trafford with me, batter them first 20 minutes but miss sitters and never score and then it's the Mata, Martial and Ibrahimovic show from then on in.  If Martial was as good IRL as he is in the game he would be some player!!  Along with Arsenal the most overpowered side in FM.  To be fair they have been remarkably weak in the last few FM's but have certainly gone up several notches this version at probably the expense of Chelsea and Man City,.  Conte and Guardiola are always sacked first season in every save I play.

 

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I'm in year 2027 and Mourinho is still active at Manu. He won 25 titles, lost in 10 years only 95 games, bought 39 players for 486M (276M agent fee) and of course he is a legend. Yup, they're a bit overrated in this FM-Version

In my first season Wenger won the CL and Klopp, Conte, Guardiola and Pochettino were sacked.

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Arsenal are worse. In my first season they won the title by about five points, and they're about to retain it in my second season. They managed to sign Dybala and now they're absolutely unstoppable. I'm sure the FM creators are Arsenal fans who decided to make their team super OP.;)

At the same time though, City, Chelsea and Liverpool are all massively underperforming, with none of them in the top four places, and Conte and Klopp have already been sacked too.

I'm currently doing an FM save though, and my Man United team have only conceded about six goals in total this season. I prefer to play with a 3-4-1-2, because I've signed Icardi and both he and Martial only seem to score when they have a strike partner, and Ibrahimovic in his second season drops in form dramatically. When they both do though, they bang them in for fun, and now Bayern won't leave me alone with their offers for Martial.

------------------------------De Gea------------------------
------------Lindelof---------De Vrij---------Bailly------
----Mkhitaryan----Bazoer-----Pogba-----Shaw---
----------------------------------Mata-----------------------
-------------------------Martial--------Icardi-------------

I've battered Chelsea, Liverpool, City and Spurs with that side. Converting Shaw into a winger is one of my experiments that has paid off big time. He's brilliant in that position. Something about ex-Southampton players who start out at left back... :D

Edited by ThisIsHardcore

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9 hours ago, ThisIsHardcore said:

I've battered Chelsea, Liverpool, City and Spurs with that side. Converting Shaw into a winger is one of my experiments that has paid off big time. He's brilliant in that position. Something about ex-Southampton players who start out at left back... :D

Good fullbacks make the best wingers!  

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I'm finding it quite difficult to see how anyone can feel United aren't OP. Look at how they're doing IRL - since Fergie and his manipulating of referees has gone, United are a Europa League team at best.

There's definitely some attributes that are higher than they should be - and as others have said, the in-game Jose is a poor facsimile of the real one.

Edited by Lenzar

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22 minutes ago, Lenzar said:

I'm finding it quite difficult to see how anyone can feel United aren't OP. Look at how they're doing IRL - since Fergie and his manipulating of referees has gone, United are a Europa League team at best.

There's definitely some attributes that are higher than they should be - and as others have said, the in-game Jose is a poor facsimile of the real one.

I think there are two things which are leading to Man Utd looking/being a bit OP this year, perhaps three.

Aside from the tactical discussion I think a major factor is money/rep.  They have the money and the rep to attract the best players in game which isn't quite the case IRL.

The second factor I think is similar to the England factor, FM hasn't found a way yet to represent a group of individuals who despite being good under perform as a team for no obvious reason. 

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Tbh I stopped reading when I got to manipulating referees. They are actually quite easy to beat if you can handle the large amounts of pace they have, as they play high and direct. Take the AMC out the game, play deep, and get behind the full backs. 

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The first match I played them I lost 3-2 without them playing Pogba and Zlatan. in the EPL I beat them 5-0 while they played Pogba and Zlatan. 

It's down to tactics and being able to not play your own tactic too much. 

 

Arsenal v Man Utd 16-17.pkm

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5 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Tbh I stopped reading when I got to manipulating referees. They are actually quite easy to beat if you can handle the large amounts of pace they have, as they play high and direct. Take the AMC out the game, play deep, and get behind the full backs. 

Its not just about beating them with whichever team you are managing, its about how other AI teams get on against them as well.

I'm on my 3rd save on FM17 and it has been noticeable how well they've done in each save and I haven't managed in England in any of those saves.

So far its looking better on this save with them having finished 2nd, 5th & 3rd but it does normally take around 3/4 seasons for them to start the flow of trophies.

 

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9 hours ago, Lenzar said:

I'm finding it quite difficult to see how anyone can feel United aren't OP. Look at how they're doing IRL - since Fergie and his manipulating of referees has gone, United are a Europa League team at best.

There's definitely some attributes that are higher than they should be - and as others have said, the in-game Jose is a poor facsimile of the real one.

You sound so hurt.

 

8 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

The second factor I think is similar to the England factor, FM hasn't found a way yet to represent a group of individuals who despite being good under perform as a team for no obvious reason. 

I agree. And there are other instances of teams performing better in game than irl. And it's not because they are OP or overrated. It's just easier for AI managers to make things work than their rl counterparts can sometimes.

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4 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

 it does normally take around 3/4 seasons for them to start the flow of trophies.

 

Yup, in my current save as Nantes, season 10, they took 4 seasons to get into full gear and now they've won 5 straight league titles and the last 3 CL titles. The same pattern has occurred in every save I've had on FM 17.

You can use the good old "the moment you click first continue, realism goes out of the window" argument, but surely there ought to be some boundaries.

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On 3/29/2017 at 07:22, vanWolfstwinkle said:

They seem unstoppable this year, it's like they are the Barcelona that played against PSG but on FM. They always come at you and somehow find a way to create tap in chance where the player actually passes the ball across goal, but when you want to do it, your players always try to shoot.

Pretty much second this. I have played 3 times against them, and I have drawn one and lost two. Even end up losing against them with them playing second choice squad while I played my first choice. I have thrashed Barca, Bayern, City, Spurs and Cheslea this year but can't do it united despite of dominating games. 

Now I understand that they have some very good players like Zlatan, Martial(though stagnated quite a bit), Rashford(Same as martial), Mata and Pogba(overrated).  But it raises eyebrows when people like Lingard, Basti and Felliani start putting worldly displays. 

And they are constantly linked with Antoine Griezmann. I will just end up buying him so United can't get him. 

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As FFP is implemented to the letter perhaps more so on FM than IRL then Man United are likely to dominate the EPL due to having a higher budget they are already matching Chelsea & City for wages and transfers without being in the Champions League, they also have perhaps the games highest rep manager. Add to that FM doesn't seem to get Guardiola, Klopp or Conte's tactics/methods as they regularly get sacked early, then replaced by lower rep managers and then frequently fail to qualify for Europe. So massive turnover + high rep manager + tactics FM likes & a young high potential squad = United seem to have an in game advantage . Arsenal also do very well on my saves.  

And Real life Spurs may actually live up to  or better their FM counterparts for the first FM edition ever.

Edited by Chinook2000

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On ‎29‎/‎03‎/‎2017 at 02:52, vanWolfstwinkle said:

They seem unstoppable this year, it's like they are the Barcelona that played against PSG but on FM. They always come at you and somehow find a way to create tap in chance where the player actually passes the ball across goal, but when you want to do it, your players always try to shoot.

In my Swansea save currently I am unbeaten against United in 3 seasons. It's Arsenal I seem to struggle with and funnily enough Sunderland are my bogey team.

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They've just come off a 65 game unbeaten streak in my game. Won the league with ease conceding just 15 goals (3rd title in a row). They were set to win their 2nd CL in a row against Barcelona, so out of curiosity I copied my game and replayed it to see how many times it would take Barcelona to beat them. 22 times I had to reload until Barcelona beat them, and even that was only a 1-0 win due to an own goal from Van Dijk. Crazy.

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On ‎10‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 19:26, Sassafras said:

They've just come off a 65 game unbeaten streak in my game. Won the league with ease conceding just 15 goals (3rd title in a row). They were set to win their 2nd CL in a row against Barcelona, so out of curiosity I copied my game and replayed it to see how many times it would take Barcelona to beat them. 22 times I had to reload until Barcelona beat them, and even that was only a 1-0 win due to an own goal from Van Dijk. Crazy.

22 times! WOW! :eek:

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Completely dominant in my save. 3 years running now and down to conceding 15 goals in a season.

Untitled-6.jpg~original

 

 

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8 hours ago, Tiger666 said:

Completely dominant in my save. 3 years running now and down to conceding 15 goals in a season.

Untitled-6.jpg~original

 

 

Same on my save, i'm in my 6th year and i've only won the title twice they've won the rest. I don't understand how they seem to win games with ease, like the opposition let them win and not try.

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They are extremely good in my save, but not completely dominating.

* Player Managed

16/17: Man Utd

17/18: Liverpool

18/19: Man Utd

19/20: Man Utd

20/21: Chelsea

21/22: Man Utd

22/23: Liverpool

23/24: Man Utd

24/25: Currently between Liverpool* and Chelsea

 

...In all that time they have won the CL once.

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In my Middlesboro save I could beat the top teams at home but never united, the best I managed was 2-0 at theres in a meaningless match but that's it, 2 draws but the rest was defeat after defeat. Always struggled against their midfield force even if I choose a defensive formation with counter attack then found that if they went ahead, as soon as I changed my approach they would rip me apart

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1 hour ago, stevio11 said:

In my Middlesboro save I could beat the top teams at home but never united, the best I managed was 2-0 at theres in a meaningless match but that's it, 2 draws but the rest was defeat after defeat. Always struggled against their midfield force even if I choose a defensive formation with counter attack then found that if they went ahead, as soon as I changed my approach they would rip me apart

Two draws and one win in how many games? That actually sounds pretty good for Middlesboro against United.

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Starting with 2018-19 season, they have won the title 5 times back to back and 4 champions league title, 2 FA and 1 EFL Cup. Now in the 6th season they started with 5 wins out of 5, 11 goals scored and 0 conceded. Sure i have lost at home again.

In 16 games against Mourinho's side, I have 1W 2D 13L. I remember the game i won. It was FA Cup and Man Utd were with substitutes.

If they dominate the game, they win. If i dominate the game, again they win. Once i scored 4, they scored 6. My players are paralyzed against De Gea. Nightmare was Lewandowski for a few seasons and then now Hazard, Griezman, Dybala...

Sometimes Mou admits being lucky against me before the match but after the win he always humiliates.

I hate this game sometimes.

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