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Why is it so hard to beat Manchester United

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in my 7th season, man u havent won the league once :)

mourinho is still there though, god knows how...

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2 hours ago, lemeuresnew said:

in my 7th season, man u havent won the league once :)

mourinho is still there though, god knows how...

Are you managing in the EPL?

Canny management can stop OP AI.

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Just now, Lenzar said:

Are you managing in the EPL?

Canny management can stop OP AI.

yep, always have a liverpool save

in my past foreign saves, usually noticed tottenham dominating. i have liked how the big teams havent just changed manager every year or 2 they dont win league due to human players. seems to give them a more balanced team due to not changing shape, style and so on so much

seen chelsea go down in 3rd and 4th season in different saves, that was a nice change

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Agree with the fact that they always perform extremely well against other AI teams. Probably due to their OP players and stable management. This will cause their morale always be high and make them harder to beat

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I've done OK against them, but they won the league last year (19/20), conceding eight league goals against not-me.  They also beat me in the Champions League final.  On penalties.  After Antoine Griezmann missed a penalty in the 113th minute for me.  And one of my central midfielders got a straight red in the 30th minute.  Happened earlier today, and I am a bit salty.

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Doesn't actually look that bad.

United were deceptively dominant last season, despite a poor league position; Bear in mind they lost the same amount of games as the Champions Chelsea (5), and had the second best defensive record in the entire league (29 conceded). Their issues this season came from being wasteful in attack, and I've seen them be wasteful in FM, especially when the opposition AI can stall them and cause them to take 30+ shots from silly positions. It is clear they have quality players in almost all departments.

 

In my personal opinion, some United players are slightly over-rated; Depay for example was ridiculously world-class straight out of the box in Fm16, and Luke Shaw maybe needs a bit more toning down and perhaps some mentality adjustments.

 

I agree with the poster who said it is the typical 'England' issue; (They just won the World Cup on mine hah), and I think maybe the answer lies more in having the AI Managers make more mistakes maybe? Picking more unsuitable roles due to their lower tactical knowledge. In my opinion, I feel managers in the game can be a bit strong tactically, personally I don't see how Moyes and Benetiz are on par with each other in tactical knowledge, and I have no idea how Gareth Southgate is better than Pochettino and almost on part with Pep, but I might be chasing up the wrong tree here.

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On 3/29/2017 at 13:51, Tajerio said:

They're one of the very few teams I also regularly struggle to beat, so I strongly empathized with your post.

As the two posters above me also said, I think their squad is more than a touch overrated this year to boot.

 

On 3/29/2017 at 15:53, themadsheep2001 said:

I'd say the researcher would find that more than a little insulting, especially if you don't have the evidence to back that up.

Either way, not really the issue here.

 

Yeah, but there are hidden attributes that could have been buffed.  I haven't used the editor a ton, but I know you can set team attributes like Determination and whatnot in the editor, so maybe there is some sort of "club attributes" factor that could have been changed without much being noticed in the player attributes.  I'm not saying that has actually happened, but there are technically "behind the scenes" attributes for every player in the game, things like consistency, pressure, big matches, etc.

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double post

Edited by Analog

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I've also found this a bit on FM17. I'm playing as Manchester City and often struggle against United, particularly away from home. I think overall in my first couple of seasons my record against them is fairly even, they may have one or two more wins.

I'm not a massive fan of sitting back and playing on the counter attack but it seems to be the only way to stop them. If I go to Old Trafford and play my normal expansive, attacking brand of football then they just seem to pick me off. I've had games where on the stats I've had a lot more possession, maybe 60-40, yet every highlight is them with the ball creating chances.

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Yes. They seem OP to be honest. Some of their players have too good attributes and they're also very rich so they basically have a full team of world class players. I struggle with them more than against teams like Madrid and Barcelona.

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14 hours ago, Sunstrikuuu said:

 After Antoine Griezmann missed a penalty in the 113th minute for me.  And one of my central midfielders got a straight red in the 30th minute.  Happened earlier today, and I am a bit salty.

I had a similar thing. It wasn't CL final, but still. I had a penalty but of course superman De Gea saves it, then they score a bs goal, I get a player sent off, they score again and then my lm gets injured. They won 4-0. -_-

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On 2017-04-03 at 20:41, oulzac said:

Mou/ManU after the winter update seemed to get a super boost behind the scenes. And its rather comical in my opinion. I've done multiple saves, and in everyone they always win the league and the CL multiple times in a row. I've begun to think that a few members of SI are huge ManU fans. Because there is no way Mou could pull that off. One and done is his flavor. He has never been able to sustain that level out of any team he has ever managed. Also he isn't a huge baby in the press in the game like he is in real life. Which is super disappointing.

He is a huge baby in the press in my game. The ManU team is still almost unbeatable in my game in 2031, have a horrible record against them but managed to beat them in the second leg of the CL semi finals with enough margin to get me to the finals despite losing the first leg. Didn't hear a word from the whiner after that even though he has been mouthing off both before and after the previous games. Not really sure how I managed to win though as I don't think I actually changed anything. They have been a constant success every season in my game with some impressing numbers on the board so I'm not the only team having issues with them. Not sure I ever seen a top team in this game so cosistent before that they still have the same manager after all that time.

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I batter them alot. BUT they have beaten me in CL finals, and a few times in the league but i have won 10 straight leagues. It helps that my tactic is built perfectly with the players i have. It also helps having Icardi! even though they have Dybala and he has been the reason they beat us a few times, Icardi is the difference maker.

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9 hours ago, Analog said:

Yeah, but there are hidden attributes that could have been buffed.  I haven't used the editor a ton, but I know you can set team attributes like Determination and whatnot in the editor, so maybe there is some sort of "club attributes" factor that could have been changed without much being noticed in the player attributes.  I'm not saying that has actually happened, but there are technically "behind the scenes" attributes for every player in the game, things like consistency, pressure, big matches, etc.

As someone who has used the editor a lot including with the Man Utd data, I can assure you that hasn't happened.  There's all sorts of financially related values which United do better than other clubs in, but we're talking about a club that's spent £100m already this summer.

As for actual player values if anything, it's the opposite: players that could probably justify having some of their hidden values filled in with good scores like Rashford have them completely random and arguably too-low hidden values for player reputation amongst some players means AI Mourinho - as spend happy as his real life counterpart - immediately goes out and buys three or four expensive marquee players to strengthen his squad. The only player in the starting squad that might be significantly overrated is Shaw, but then the guy on his opposite flank is a bit hard done by.

Pogba has far more evident defensive weaknesses IRL than in FM, but he's the work of the Juventus research team. And you really can't knock the Man Utd research when new signing Dybala or Kane sticks a hat trick past you. :D 

 

It's hardly surprising that the side with one of the best starting squads and biggest budgets is not easy to beat over the course of a few seasons in FM. It would be even more ludicrous to suggest that United dominating is an unlikely and unrealistic outcome which had no precedent over the past three decades...

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7 hours ago, enigmatic said:

It's hardly surprising that the side with one of the best starting squads and biggest budgets is not easy to beat over the course of a few seasons in FM. It would be even more ludicrous to suggest that United dominating is an unlikely and unrealistic outcome which had no precedent over the past three decades...

Fair enough.  It really doesn't bother me either way if they are dominant in the game.  I just wanted to point out that there are hidden attributes that you don't get to see without the editor that could be changed and make a difference.  Again, not suggest that has actually happened.  Spurs seemed to be quite good also in the past two FM's, and I think it's centered around how players develop and move clubs in FM, as well as how clubs generate their budgets.

Edited by Analog

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I do think there's something going on here with United (though not specific to them.  I'm not alleging some sort of pro-United conspiracy here.).  Through 41 games they've conceded 17 goals.  That's in line with what they've done in the last four seasons.  I don't see anything particularly out of the ordinary otherwise, though.  They have the league's second-best attack, but it's more or less in line with other teams.  They've got basically average numbers for possession, pass completion and ball retention.  They both receive and miss penalties slightly more often than other teams, and concede an average number.  They've won the second-fewest headers at a percentage that's T-15.  They get more yellow cards and red cards than average.  They foul more frequently than average.  They have an above average but not particularly high tackles won%.  They win the second-most tackles in the league.   Looking at individual defensive stats, I don't see any United players with particularly noteworthy individual defensive stats either as sums or on a per-game basis.

The big outliers are in shots faced and saves parried.  De Gea has faced 70 shots on target in 28 games, exactly 2.5 per game.  Gigi Donnarumma has faced the next fewest at 95, or 3.4 shots per game.  So there's a gap of one shot per game.  Also significantly, De Gea does not parry shots.  It's happened 11 times in 28 games.  Donnarumma is next-best with 28, or slightly more than half a shot parried per game, even though they have nearly identical saves held.  No goalkeeper in any of the top five leagues in Europe is even close; the best mark over an equivalent number of games is more than double De Gea's.  (League stats only.)  So something Mourinho does tactically suppresses shots against fairly significantly and doesn't show up in any of the raw or rate stats otherwise. 

Late Edit: Despite holding a much higher percentage of his saves than other keepers, De Gea's rating seems to average about .15 below other comparable keepers for other clubs.  Presumably this is due to facing fewer shots overall.

Edited by Sunstrikuuu

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The Special One is quite special in my current save:

7344019cee4b0921841abb189acfc86c.png
 

Though Man City are 5 points clear of Utd after 28 games this season...

I either seem to beat Utd or utterly get my pants pulled down by them, never a middle ground!

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Right, so........in my current save as mentioned before Man Utd are the dominate force and have won the Prem 5+ times in a row, I finished 2nd for 4 seasons running with my Leeds side. (its 2025 now).

I've slowly built up a better and better squad, so I now have some v good players but Utd always spent big and always did well on the pitch - one season they won the league with 97 points!

Anyway this season was tight with me just behind for most of the season upto around Xmas, they then lost 2 in a row and I went 2 points ahead, it stayed this way until 2 games to go..............

- Penultimate game was Spurs at home, spurs are a good side and were 4th in the league, I just needed to win to secure the title...........went 1-0 up, but it ended 1-1 despite dominating the game.

- LAST game of the season........UTD at home!  Sometimes you can't make it up!  Was a very close game, similar chances for both sides, I was playing a counter tactic as I only needed a draw - but my long term striker popped up in the 88th min with a goal to seal it!

 

You just can't make it up with FM sometimes, this was a guy who I'd bought aged 17 from Watford for £250k and played him in my first ever Premier League game, and he bagged a brace, since then he has been a key member of my team and has developed into a very good player and England regular.  

I honestly thought I'd get beat - as I've lost the title before in other saves on the last day, at home to the team who then won it.

 

Get in!  Also got a 3rd FA cup final to play (having won the last 2) so it would be lovely to win that.  Utd are in the CL final though as I got PSG in the 1st KO round (despite winning the group with 6 wins).  

 

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Man Utd's dominance in this year's game is the result of a few things in my opinion: 

1. The in-game ability of the Premier League's top clubs is far superior than in reality. English clubs have struggled to reach the latter stages of the Champions League for some time now, and there has been a recent trend of elite players moving away from the league (Ronaldo, Bale Suarez) rather than towards it. This incorrect representation of the league's standing results in earth shattering transfers as soon as you hit continue for the first time. Man Utd immediately signed Lewandowski on my long running save, which turned them into an unstoppable tsunami. 

Man Utds 'invincibles' season screenshot attached. 

2. In reality, Man Utd are going through a huge post-Ferguson hangover and have not found a team identity. They have thrown hundreds of millions of pounds at that squad and only won minor cup competitions. It must be very hard for the game to represent a team of talented individuals who have zero chemistry on the pitch. The game deals in numbers, so they are therefore hard to beat. Pogba in FM2017 is the most unplayable opponent I have ever faced in 20 years of this franchise. He is like a bowling ball smashing my players over like pins. To say his attributes have not been over rated given his actual on the pitch performances is laughable. Add him to Lewandoski (40+ goals a season), Bernado SIlva, Romagnoli plus a Luke Shaw based on the T1000 from Terminator; and you end up with the below screenshot.

 

Man Utd.jpg

Edited by rdbayly

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Situation doesn't change in 2030. Mourinho still in charge and it is always hard to win no matter how better you get. Pogba is 36 and a backup player now but i have never seen any player doing the things he does. I even saw him doing "karate kid 1 kick" pass. He is definitely more than numbers.

After losing 20 games, i had a winning streak and i would almost equalise in past meetings table through years but i began to loose again in the last few games. They are the only team i still couldn't manage to dominate everytime with possession football.

It is quite simple actually. Simplicity is the hardest thing of course. Quality 5-6 defensive players sitting deep who are well organized with a "ball magnet goalkeeper". Mourinho always has explosive players. They may not be that good sometimes but always impossible to mark for certain. Players pump the ball to flanks, they hug the line, dribble down the flanks and a low cross. Boom! Striker is always there. Nothing much you can do if you set your defensive line higher.

This is a crossing game, don't you know? Anyway, i love the game but crossing is overrated for years. Man Utd are mostly exploiting that. Almost a bug.

 

Edited by ermant

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Interesting post... Man U give me a sound thrashing whenever they're showing 4411 but i play as leeds so..... it is good to see crazy attacking wingers coming from the midfield strata rather than am l/r. I dont think im the only one showing a bit of professional jealously in the thread! Im sure if i worked on alternate formations i could put up a better fight but theres something in the DNA as a leeds fan that id rather see 2BWM kick lumps out of martial on the 1 occasion they track him down rather than secure points

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Its a bit comical to read people think its some behind the scenes settings that make some clubs unbeatable

The best way is to look at the player starts, I'd wait for FM2018 now and compare players against similar players e.g. you see Man Utd Player x has pace at 20 yet you know Burnley player x has pace of 18 but is known publicly as the quicker player etc etc. Using this comparison method with evidence etc you'll have a fighting chance of getting the player stats amended or made even more realistic in terms of individual and amongst their peers. Each FM release there is a Data forum where you can raise queries. The art is to present fact with quotes examples etc rather than with personal views alone. Also keep it objective

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Given the mentality of the average United fan, and bare in mind that they're most glory hunting wassocks that rate Phil Neville and Nicky Butt as world-class, I would say that the chances of bias in the research are roughly equal to the chance of sand in the Sahara.

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4 hours ago, Lenzar said:

Given the mentality of the average United fan, and bare in mind that they're most glory hunting wassocks that rate Phil Neville and Nicky Butt as world-class, I would say that the chances of bias in the research are roughly equal to the chance of sand in the Sahara.

You are assuming that the MUFC AR is overating the players which may not be the case at all. In addition SI will have their own head researcher who will validate the researchers updates else they could put anything in. As I mentioned its OK to make generalisations but exact attributes for specific players with some evidence / elements to support the challenge will be expected.

If this sort of info is provided to the MUFC researcher and SI and its substantiated then there is a good chance it may be amended. Thats the way to go I suggest rather than some of the off the cuff statements made in the thread as these wont support a change of any kind

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Manchester united are the sole dominating force in FM. there's nothing you can do about it.

but if someone can do a research on why it turns out like that in every game, that would be useful to all.

 

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I have the same Issue - Man Utd is so OVERPOWERED in my save!! I play as Arsenal and have the best players, but still have no chance !!

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Well, I beat them just twice, once with AC Milan, and once with Arsenal,  but what I find surprising is the how easily their managers get sacked. For example, Mourinho won 2 Premier League titles in a row in the first 3 seasons (City won the first one, United finished as runner-up), one Champions League and lost another final, then had an off season and finished 3rd, got the sack. Pochettino took the role, won four Premier League titles in a row, played two Champions League semifinals and lost another final, then had a less successful season and finished 3rd, played the Champions League semifinal and was sacked. Seems a bit odd to sack a successful manager after having finishing 3rd in the league, it`s not as if they finished mid-table, and they were in the title race until matchday 37.

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Totally agree... in this FM, they are totally overpowered, not sure what's behind it but played 30 years each save.. they are the ones with the most titles and winning champions league in rows.

Edited by Wells

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Draw Man Utd in Qtr Final of CL in 2021, Jose Mourinho is still their manager. I created a new tactic just to face Man Utd soon as we got the draw. Watch some of their team reports, highlights of goals, assists position, etc. Came with 4132 narrow. Trained it but never practice it in real match. 

First leg, at home, we beat them 2 - 0. We successfully shut them down, all of their attackers, no clear cut chance, no dangerous cross, and no other dangerous play. Happily, I felt my 'special tactic that made just to beat Mourinho' was a success, so I keep it for the second leg. But, perhaps the artificial Jose is smart as him in real life :D

Beaten 3 - 0 at Old Trafford, eventho I feel only one of their goals that was created because of their good attacking setup. The second goal, it was screamer from Pogba, and the third goal, my DM, Santi Ascacibar made sloppy first touch and Mata quickly shot the loose ball, it was an individual error that proved costly. Attacking wise, no, they learnt our tactic and my two strikers completely disappeared. Although before the second leg began, I lost three key players, and I felt like, f*ck, they gonna overturn this tie :D

In nutshell, yes, its hard to beat Man Utd, its hard to beat Jose, eventho it's only in the game :D , considering I faced him four times in Champions League

Edited by tinkerer

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Imposible to beat any of the top 5 clubs away. I just go into the game knowing that i will loose no matter what tactic i use. 

just go wash up while the match engine beats my team then im onto the next match.  

I have come to expect it. 

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On 8/30/2017 at 17:00, upthetoon said:

Manchester united are the sole dominating force in FM. there's nothing you can do about it.

but if someone can do a research on why it turns out like that in every game, that would be useful to all.

 

Not really.

TVGG4q4.png

Although to be fair that six titles in a row looks pretty bad.

But whatever the reason for such dominance is, when it continues this far into the future it's not really about United being overrated. A few years into a save and it's much more down to AI squad building and tactics, in addition to the huge (and realistic) amounts of money they get. Back when Mourinho was still Chelsea manager he seemed to always stay there forever in FM and his teams were incredibly difficult to beat. In a United save in FM15 no matter how many points I got in a season Mourinho's Chelsea were never far away, and all the other teams were far below us both. Maybe there's just something in the way Mourinho behaves tactically in FM that makes this happen?

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17 minutes ago, kozmik said:

But whatever the reason for such dominance is, when it continues this far into the future it's not really about United being overrated. A few years into a save and it's much more down to AI squad building and tactics, in addition to the huge (and realistic) amounts of money they get. Back when Mourinho was still Chelsea manager he seemed to always stay there forever in FM and his teams were incredibly difficult to beat. In a United save in FM15 no matter how many points I got in a season Mourinho's Chelsea were never far away, and all the other teams were far below us both. Maybe there's just something in the way Mourinho behaves tactically in FM that makes this happen?

 

The big weakness is that the game doesn't really account for Mourinho's tendency to lose his patience and relationship with his team or move on for other reasons by the third season, even if they've been doing well beforehand.

 

In other respects in FM, he has solid tactics, good motivational abilities and is good at buying marquee names when given one of the biggest budgets in the league, which is pretty hard to argue isn't a realistic approximation of how he actually manages IRL.

Edited by enigmatic

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On 8/31/2017 at 15:51, Wells said:

Totally agree... in this FM, they are totally overpowered, not sure what's behind it but played 30 years each save.. they are the ones with the most titles and winning champions league in rows.

What planet do you live on where Man Utd being the most successful club over a 30 year period is not a realistic outcome?

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1 minute ago, enigmatic said:

What planet do you live on where Man Utd being the most successful club over a 30 year period is not a realistic outcome?

Yeah only them being the most successful club in all and every saves I have done is realistic.. maybe you didn't get my point and trying to be a ***** ***

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Just now, Wells said:

Yeah only them being the most successful club in all and every saves I have done is realistic.. maybe you didn't get my point and trying to be a ***** ***

I'm going to go out on a limb and suggest that SI have run even more saves than you to check the outcomes aren't always the same. (Which they're not btw)

But yes, you're right, it's totally ridiculous that the young team of a mega-rich club that's won more titles since the beginning of the Premier League era than all their challengers put together is usually the most successful in simulations over a similar length of time in future. Definitely overpowered. Very good point. :applause:

 

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45 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

The big weakness is that the game doesn't really account for Mourinho's tendency to lose his patience and relationship with his team or move on for other reasons by the third season, even if they've been doing well beforehand.

Yeah, I agree - this used to annoy the **** out of me back when he was Chelsea manager. Even in the original database in FM16 he would always hang around forever and do really well, even though in real life they completely collapsed and he got the sack that season.

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19 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Some BS

 

I have already said and will stick to my point... this thread wouldn't even exist in first place anyways if them are not being op..

Edited by Wells

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7 minutes ago, Wells said:

I have already said and will stick to my point... this thread wouldn't even exist in first place anyways if them are not being OP..

Yes, nobody would ever question anything in a computer game if they weren't right and the game wrong.:applause: 

In other news, the game is scripted, the AI has massive advantages over human players, winning is impossible, and everybody complaining about Man Utd pipping the teams they've promoted from lower divisions to the title is totally right to focus on how many points Man Utd have as being the unrealistic bit...

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How idiotic.. I have stated my views about them being op only and that's it. Are you mad about it? Haha.... Also who ever has mentioned the game is scripted and it is impossible to win I don't care... as I have never ever said such things.

Stop quoting me ffs.. I have better things to do than argue with you, now just bore off.

Edited by Wells

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