Jump to content
Sports Interactive Community

Recommended Posts

3 minutes ago, pheelf said:

I actually decided to fire up FM17 and start a save game with Valencia and use the tactic you created (4-4-1-1) with the slight alterations that I suggested. I haven't made any transfers at all and have just played every game by using quick pick to select my players for each game and these are my results so far.

482730_20170404200906_1.png

I made no alterations to that tactic in any game and only made substitutions. I'm 3rd in the table (better than pre-season expectation of 5th) and have only lost twice. Once after a red card against Osasuna and the other against Real Madrid where we very unlucky not to get a point or better. Considering that I don't even have the players to play the system to be outperforming expectations I think is pretty impressive. Now either I'm the most flukiest individual in the world or tactics isn't the sum total of your issue. If I can do it and I'm not that good at this game then there is absolutely no reason why you can't.

 

That's ok, you are free to disagree with me but you could at least explain why you disagree with nearly everything I have written and better still make a suggestion of something that would in fact be better. I don't consider myself an expert so I'm always open to other peoples opinions. Unfortunately, what you have written there doesn't really add anything to the discussion at all except trashing me.

It seems Chievo destroyed you in a friendly. Something similar happened to me. Maybe panic too early...

Don't you feel your SS is acting more as a creator than a goal threat?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, looping said:

It seems Chievo destroyed you in a friendly. Something similar happened to me. Maybe panic too early...

Don't you feel your SS is acting more as a creator than a goal threat?

I let my AM manage the friendlies as I wanted to see how your tactic worked in competitive fixtures. I think the Chievo game was probably an aberration. I don't mind what the results are early in pre-season as for me it's just about fitness and improving tactical familiarity so I wouldn't pay too much attention to those. 

I'm finding that too as my SS isn't my main goalscorer but I wouldn't mind that as the goals seem to be fairly spread all around the team with Zaza being the top scorer with 6 which is always a good sign as it means that the tactic is creating a range of different types of chances for the different players. This has all been done without having a player who is actually any good in the role of SS. If I had managed to pick up a quality SS the results would have probably been even better. I also had a number of injuries to key players during that period which probably didn't help performances either

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, pheelf said:

I let my AM manage the friendlies as I wanted to see how your tactic worked in competitive fixtures. I think the Chievo game was probably an aberration. I don't mind what the results are early in pre-season as for me it's just about fitness and improving tactical familiarity so I wouldn't pay too much attention to those. 

I'm finding that too as my SS isn't my main goalscorer but I wouldn't mind that as the goals seem to be fairly spread all around the team with Zaza being the top scorer with 6 which is always a good sign as it means that the tactic is creating a range of different types of chances for the different players. This has all been done without having a player who is actually any good in the role of SS. If I had managed to pick up a quality SS the results would have probably been even better. I also had a number of injuries to key players during that period which probably didn't help performances either

I don't know what to say. I played 5 matches I lost all. I didn't touch anything. 3 goals scored 12 conceded, and I can say that I was even lucky. I could have conceded at least twice.

I'm starting to think my version of fm is simply broken.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, looping said:

It seems Chievo destroyed you in a friendly. Something similar happened to me. Maybe panic too early...

Don't you feel your SS is acting more as a creator than a goal threat?

Don't worry you're not the only one who may panic or overreact a too early.

And I don't necessarily think that your SS being a creator is a bad thing. I think it lends itself to more a spread in regards to goal scoring and that's never a bad thing when goals are coming from more than one or two guys.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
10 hours ago, bdixon said:

I sympathize with the OP a little, learning to adapt is something I find the most difficult.

e.g. Opposition starts having more position than me 60%-40% I start to  panic as more possession = less chance I have a scoring. My response, more than likely incorrect. I select retain possession TI as it seems the most logical to me. Possession start stay the same. I bewilders me at times on what is the best way 'to' adapt. 

You wouldn't need to panic as you drop in possession. Giving the ball to the opposition can increase the chance of scoring (Leicester last season) in-game too. Anyhow, what you guys need is a "keep it simple" guide. Even if there was something "difficult" about 4-4-2s, it's largely how it's currently implemented in FM (wrote a piece called "decline of the 4-4-2 of the FM kind" or something when 2017 was released, and even if, the AI bleedingly obvious isn't aware of it's "specialties" an inch. And offline you're competing against AI and AI alone. This is AI that in isolated cases still reports back with long-term shot conversion rates of 5% or lower, AI that on the top level can play this aggressively you can through ball it to death. AI that you could schoolboy around never getting the ball back without it able to spot the reasons either. It's not bad, but it's a) AI and b) SI will likely never make it so that the game is only playable for a select few. Why make this a science for somebody who has established by now he tends to overract, is already under the impression that matches on FM would be entirelly down to tactics (they aren't, only if they are horrible or exploit ME/AI). Somebody who struggles to read what the AI can't "read" anyhow -- and why does that somebody keep trying and trying.

This has never been about a crave for a big over performance (at least, as it's being represented). This has always been about consistently doing the opposite. You can only get the sack or underperform so predictably if you're consistently worse than said AI, and as of Looping's saves, he's not always doing that from the start (at least as far as he documents), but at one point appears to get into a slump and isn't able to get out of it, which suggests there is more than just tactics to it (or him making it worse in the panic chopping -- it's been demonstrated that at least sometimes you can't trust what he writes as he switches formations when he says he would stick to it). Whilst THOG (The Hand Of God) wrote great in-depth pieces too, it's a pity he isn't around anymore, as this quote of his has it nailed down perfectly, and that was as recent as FM16. With that I'm bowing out once and for all, as this thread (or these threads) make my head explode as well, and even if such guides were around, I'm not convinced looping would be ready to take them. :D
 

Quote

There are advantages to be gained by playing the game tactically, but it's now more a question of shifting probabilities marginally in your favour, not finding a formula to decisively beat the computer. And that's how it should be. In real life, tactics are tertiary to player ability and motivation. Still, the game is not that hard assuming:

1) You're not expecting to win every match.

2) You're not undermining yourself with terrible man management.

3) You're not selecting a very low reputation avatar and expecting high reputation players to make an effort for you.

And IMO, things still get far too easy once you've had time to build a squad whilst the AI managers dismantle theirs. The problem, then, is not that people can't play the game using simple tactics. That's not true at all. Plenty of casual users achieve great success just following the TC descriptions. 

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 hours ago, Svenc said:

You wouldn't need to panic as you drop in possession. Giving the ball to the opposition can increase the chance of scoring (Leicester last season) in-game too. Anyhow, what you guys need is a "keep it simple" guide. Even if there was something "difficult" about 4-4-2s, it's largely how it's currently implemented in FM (wrote a piece called "decline of the 4-4-2 of the FM kind" or something when 2017 was released, and even if, the AI bleedingly obvious isn't aware of it's "specialties" an inch. And offline you're competing against AI and AI alone. This is AI that in isolated cases still reports back with long-term shot conversion rates of 5% or lower, AI that on the top level can play this aggressively you can through ball it to death. AI that you could schoolboy around never getting the ball back without it able to spot the reasons either. It's not bad, but it's a) AI and b) SI will likely never make it so that the game is only playable for a select few. Why make this a science for somebody who has established by now he tends to overract, is already under the impression that matches on FM would be entirelly down to tactics (they aren't, only if they are horrible or exploit ME/AI). Somebody who struggles to read what the AI can't "read" anyhow -- and why does that somebody keep trying and trying.

This has never been about a crave for a big over performance (at least, as it's being represented). This has always been about consistently doing the opposite. You can only get the sack or underperform so predictably if you're consistently worse than said AI, and as of Looping's saves, he's not always doing that from the start (at least as far as he documents), but at one point appears to get into a slump and isn't able to get out of it, which suggests there is more than just tactics to it (or him making it worse in the panic chopping -- it's been demonstrated that at least sometimes you can't trust what he writes as he switches formations when he says he would stick to it). Whilst THOG (The Hand Of God) wrote great in-depth pieces too, it's a pity he isn't around anymore, as this quote of his has it nailed down perfectly, and that was as recent as FM16. With that I'm bowing out once and for all, as this thread (or these threads) make my head explode as well, and even if such guides were around, I'm not convinced looping would be ready to take them. :D
 

I struggle to believe that anybody can play this game without a deep knowledge. I can't figure out how they do it without cheating, and cheating includes downloading tactics.

This has been explained before, but, again, I've played fm since 01/02. When I started playing fm16 I did what I used to do. After being sacked 5 times, I asked for help.

I'm now in the same situation. Any save I start, I'll be sacked sooner or later. The patterns that consistently repeat are:

- My strikers can't score

- At some point, absolutely random, it can happen in the first match, in december, in the second season or even the third, I start conceding at least 1 goal in every match, often 2 and then is when I'm sacked and 3 here and there. Even when I consistently had a good defense, with a good team, already playing against defensive teams. There is a click and everything goes down the drain.

Probably nobody has followed all my saves, but I've had a recent one with Milan. I played 3 seasons with a 5-3-2 (basically) strikerless. My results were not good, were simply playable. I struggled against defensive teams, I lost some 0-1, 0-0 against much worse teams just because I couldn't unlock them. I can accept that, it's logical, fine and understandable. My first 2 seasons were like 20 wins 15 draw 3 lost, 40 goals scored, 20 conceded. Not overperforming but playable results (not sacked). I'm happy with that I'm not asking for more. I just want to be able to play. Starting matches thinking I can win or lose, that's enough for me. I'm not expecting to win Champions League with Crotone or Sunderland. 

In the third season, I started conceding 1,2,3 goals every match, without changing anything in my tactic. That's what kills me and what I can't understand. I start every match and I know I'm going to lose, at best draw. 

It's not that I start chopping (even when I admit sometimes I do it) because it doesn't matter what I do. When I start conceding like crazy, nothing can stop it. I can stick to the same tactic, touching nothing, I can go more attacking, more defensive. I can even totally rebuild the tactic and nothing absolutely nothing has no effect. Nothing. The pattern will be the same: my strikers will miss any possible chance and I will concede outrageous amount of goals.

Against defensive teams i'll be totally unable to score. Against more attacking teams I'll be completely battered. That's the pattern.

I've tried to be positive and try to get out of bad runs. I admit sometimes, suddenly, I stop conceding, but it's only for a few matches. When it starts, there is no point in keep playing the save because I'll be sacked, even if there is a mirage of 2-3 decent games.

I can't understand how you can play this game. I really don't understand it. My experience is hitting against a wall, constantly. I can anticipate what's going to happen and I can't change it. Even if I pay no attention to tactics or if I totally focus on them. It really doesn't matter. The same will happen.

I used in the past other tactics than 442. I conceded all my football principles to adapt to fm. I played 433 (41221) which is a formation I totally hate. I played with IF, a role I totally disapprove. Overlapping fb, being against them. 

According to you, any tactic that has no fundamental mistake should allow me to play the game, even if I don't watch matches. In my experience, that's not what happens..

gk

fb(su) cd(de) cd(de) fb(at)

dm(de)

cm(at) ap(su)

w(su) if(su

cf(su)

Control, Flexible

No Pi, TI.

 

Ok, this tactic it's not perfect (I "created" it while writing this) but has no fundamental mistake. There is nothing fundamentally wrong. It can be improved, that's right, and we could get into a deep discussion but that's not the point.

We need a team and the players. Randomly I choose Arsenal. Let's say:

Cech

Bellerin Koscienly Mustafi Gibbs

Coquelin

Ramsey Ozil

Walcott Sanchez

Giroud

I made orthodox ( @Rashidi I've watched your videos) decisions, nothing fundamentally wrong, even when this can be improved. I could give Bellerin an attack duty, Gibbs on support and swap Ramsey/Ozil Walcott/Sanchez Roles and positions. Yes I could do that or keep the initial formation,

I could even go structured to create more space. It wouldn't be a problem with a playmaker in the center of the pitch stringing passes together and a Cf holding the ball up front.

As long as I'm Arsenal, I could use a higher mentality, let's say, Control, playing more risky. I only have 2 attacking duties so that makes sense.

Or I could do the opposite, following @Dr. Hook. I could go with a Defensive mentality, push higher up and Play out the defense. Now further than orthodox,  my team should be playing methodically and patiently so I can draw the opponent out. Maybe in this case I should add more risky passes to Ozil and Sanchez, if they roles don't have it hardcoded which is something I don't remember now and I don't have the game running. I may lack a bit of penetration because the low mentality and only 2 attack duties so I may change IF to attack.

What I've just done is, even when it's not perfect (it can't as long as I did it while I was writing this), far away the knowledge of the vast majority of players. I bet the vast majority of gamers can't make this orthodox and logical decisions. Most of them would use, for instance, 5-6 TI. Probably play out the defense and WBIB trying to replicate actual Arsenal. Or even better, let's Retain possession. Isn't what Arsenal does? Why not all 3 at the same time? It sounds good, at least. Of course add pass into space, also because it sounds good and let's try some innovation and use offside trap.

Not sure if I'm 100% right but sure got the point you will agree. By no means I'm an expert (nor in fm nor in real life football) but I don't tend to overcomplicate things and I want to keep it simple.

 

The fact is that using this tactic I'll be sacked. And I know it because I've tried.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Play a whole season without fiddling around like crazy. Only change mentalities. This, you can do it many times in-match according to the match situation.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looping, I started going through quoting your posts all the times you said things along the lines of "I don't understand" or "I can't figure out" but got bored trimming out your ramblings. I'm not being mean, just stating facts. I don't think you are trying very hard to understand the concepts being explained to you. You can claim on the contrary as much as you like, but that doesn't change the fact that the content of your posts proves otherwise.

It seems that now you are asserting that the game is fixed and will not let you win certain games. If this thread has descended to that level surely this should be locked? You are no longer accepting the help you are given or asking any specific questions, just ranting about the fact that you can't play the game.

The same advise is being repeated over and over, it wouldn't be repeated so often if you showed by the content of your posts that you were taking it on board. I'll leave with this and then duck out of this thread:

Stop reacting to things so fast thinking you need to change your system, and lower your expectations.

Edited by Craigus89

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
8 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

It seems that now you are asserting that the game is fixed and will not let you win certain games

No, I didn't say that. I know the game is not fixed. I only described my experience. What you want me to do? Lie?

8 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Stop reacting to things so fast thinking you need to change your system, and lower your expectations

This demonstrates you have read nothing. MY ONLY EXPECTATION IS NOT TO BE SACKED. Read the following please.

1 hour ago, looping said:

Probably nobody has followed all my saves, but I've had a recent one with Milan. I played 3 seasons with a 5-3-2 (basically) strikerless. My results were not good, were simply playable. I struggled against defensive teams, I lost some 0-1, 0-0 against much worse teams just because I couldn't unlock them. I can accept that, it's logical, fine and understandable. My first 2 seasons were like 20 wins 15 draw 3 lost, 40 goals scored, 20 conceded. Not overperforming but playable results (not sacked). I'm happy with that I'm not asking for more. I just want to be able to play. Starting matches thinking I can win or lose, that's enough for me. I'm not expecting to win Champions League with Crotone or Sunderland. 

8 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

The same advise is being repeated over and ove

What is repeated over and over? Exactly what? Tell me, please.

 

 

Edited by looping

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, looping said:

I'm starting to think my version of fm is simply broken.

Take a step back. Use one system and play some games with it. Watch those games. Analyse where things went wrong. Come back here and show us your analysis and we can help you with specific ideas that could improve it.

Asking if there is anything fundamentally wrong with random systems that you come up with for a number of different teams is not helping.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
12 hours ago, looping said:

I don't know what to say. I played 5 matches I lost all. I didn't touch anything. 3 goals scored 12 conceded, and I can say that I was even lucky. I could have conceded at least twice.

I'm starting to think my version of fm is simply broken.

I think I'll repeat what I wrote near the beginning of my first post in this thread. There is more to this game than just tactics!!...I've proven to you that the tactic you created is sound enough to have your chosen team Valencia in 3rd when the expectation is to finish 5th so there is nothing broken with the tactic and no I don't have some special version of FM which gives me an advantage (be great if I did!!).

I think you need to work on other aspects of the way you play the game. Looking at the screenshot of the 4-4-1-1 you posted. The one thing that struck me was that you only have 1 outfield player who is 100% comfortable with the role and duty that you are asking him to play which is going to happen when you are trying to shoe-horn players into a system that they aren't familiar with. I think Gary Lineker said it best "Football is a hard enough game playing your own position let alone somebody else's" and that is precisely what you are trying enforce on your players.

That can be overcome but it's going to take time, sometimes more than the board are willing to give you which is why you get sacked. I think that is realistic though, considering that you are basically changing the whole playing philosophy of the team. Sure, Barcelona can play any system you like but they have a favoured way of playing which suits their players and that is how you get the best out of them. Asking Messi for example to be a Target Man isn't going to yield very good results.

It comes as no surprise to me that you had such a bad start. The sheer volume of transfers you made means that team cohesion and tactical familiarity all took a hammering. Compound that with the fact that you are playing players in ways that they aren't comfortable with, is it any wonder that performances suffer. You are basically asking a bunch of strangers to play well in a system they don't understand and expecting them to play well.

How do you decide who to substitute and when?

How do you decide your starting lineup?

How do you manage morale?

I think how you answer those questions are far more important in determining your success in the game rather than trying to perfect a tactic at this point. It may even be worthwhile to play FMT for a while so you don't have to worry about tactical familiarity. I don't know what more I can really say...good luck @looping

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

ok, I've stood back and let the thread develop but I'm drawing a line here.

This is going round and round and round.  The same questions are being asked, the same points are being made, the same answers are being given as have been for about a year now.  Nothing's changed apart from it's different people making these statements in slightly different ways and thus covering the same very old ground.

It's good that people want to help and makes me glad to be part of the community.  It also makes me a little sad that despite everyone's continued support we remain with someone who for whatever reason is failing to progress.  If nothing else, we have to admire Looping's tenacity in sticking with it for so long.

Frustrations naturally arise when all of this help is perceived to not be taken on board.  Perception is everything - for example the thread started as a 532 and we're now on a 442, so the perception grows of advice being wasted and tactical systems being radically changed for no apparent reason.  Now, note that I am placing stress on the word "perception" here - I don't think advice is being wasted, I think it is being taken on board, but responses to that advice and other posts don't always demonstrate that.

So, @looping, I'm not closing the thread (yet) but I have to ask you to do two things for it to remain open:-

1) pick a system and a team and stick to it.  None of this totally changing everything mid-thread.  You want a 442, lets make a 442 work.  You want a strikerless 532, lets make a strikerless 532 work.  You want something else, lets make something else work.

2) improve people's perception of how you take on board feedback.  That's very closely linked to 1).

3) slow down.  You don't know why you are doing something, only that you think you should do something, and then just carry on regardless.  That's a recipe for disaster.

ok, that's 3 things :brock:.

So, enough's enough.  Time for some changes please.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok, I'm going to stick to this but then I don't want to hear I'm painting myself into a corner or Vaas is smiling somewhere. 

------------------------------------------

There are 2 options:

a) I play 442

b) I don't play fm

I conceded almost all my football principles trying to adapt to fm. If I'm going to stick to something at least this is going to follow my principles. This attitude can even help me cause I know exactly how I want my team to play.

I'm not going to post again a full description. With the following indications must be enough, as long as don't differ much from what I've recently created:

gk. Saves

fb. Cover flank and get into the last third occasionally, only when their side is under control.

cb. Defend.

wings. run, cross, dribble, risky passes, score, track back.

defensive cm. destroy, pass the ball to the closest player

creative cm. risky passes, long shots, track back.

deep striker. link, close down defensive midfielder

striker. score goals.

58e513105e7fa_Valencia_Overview-3.thumb.png.849c52018783a10748f0675af95ea4d7.png

PI: Gk distributes over opposition defense

TI: push higher up, more direct passing

Quite similar to my previous tactic:

- I have now two strikers because I really didn't like the SS. He was acting more like a creator, dropping deep and trying to set everybody up instead of focused on scoring.

- The striker pairing is based on Leicester replication by Rashidi. I liked how they worked together.

- Shape is now Structured trying to increase mentality of my strikers (they are on defend-support which is quite conservative).

 

I think I haven't changed anything else.

-----------------------------------------------------

Now, what? I lose play matches and post here problems I find?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

First match

Not bad.

58e526f9aabbe_SevillavValencia_OverviewOverview.thumb.png.da9cdb7c77b1a6f01146c0fc9f8ae895.png

I conceded 2 comical goals and Belotti did a remarkable job missing any chance that his teammates created for him.

On the other hand,I scored one goal via corner kick and another was a wonder goal by Calleri.

Fair result, even when I could win but to be honest I could also lose.

 

- First goal

https://vid.me/DKMK

The first thing I was instructed when I was a child is NEVER DO THAT. Never a clearance to the center of the pitch. He could pass the ball to the right back, to the keeper or simply out of the field, but never there mate. The question is, am I influencing my player to do this?

- Second goal

https://vid.me/JYfQ

I have to sign a gk.

 

- I made one tweak

In minute 20, possession was 67-33. Even when I'm not interested in possession, this is probably too much, specially in fm terms, so I removed more direct passing TI. Possession ended 58-42 which is less extreme.

There was not much to change. I created a few chances (especially in the first half) and they basically long shots.

58e533f78b614_SevillavValencia_AnalysisTeams-2.thumb.png.ade8821b011faadc61a98261f0069f39.png

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Second match

First half:

a complete disaster. Not a single shot on goal. Extremely poor attacking. I have no idea what to do. I'll need a lot of luck to win this match.

58e5407aa5684_ValenciavEspanyol_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.223b41648850bfa3fd5e19eb7f517e18.png

 

I scored after a throw in.

 

They went as attacking as you see in this screenshot (look at the tactic, not the pitch). For that reason, I gave my fb both a defend duty.

58e541c707e90_ValenciavEspanyol_PitchFull-2.thumb.png.dcce2c36def86df6914743a1ac5876a7.png

 

This is a typical defending situation.

58e5423c944cb_ValenciavEspanyol_PitchFull-4.thumb.png.d36cffeba957426f04383ea452cec9b4.png

We are one on one. It's risky. I'm going to make a change:

58e54254d8436_ValenciavEspanyol_TacticsOverview-2.thumb.png.d16ff83a87dc8b6c665d1fd23c676f7b.png

 

This is the second half. Better but still poor. We are not going to get very far playing like this.

58e5426feecff_ValenciavEspanyol_AnalysisTeams-2.thumb.png.a9f2c0020994f684cb3519d384ed912a.png

 

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ignore two last screenshots.

Valencia v Espanyol_ Analysis Teams.png

Valencia v Espanyol_ Pitch Full-2.png

Edited by looping

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Next match

58e578e5851db_VillarrealvValencia_OverviewFormations.thumb.png.10d30a84c34411874f58be69800a3d41.png

 

I'm going to lose this match. This is half time:

58e578f385827_VillarrealvValencia_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.bf6d5d9dae2a458a407abcf57ddc832a.png

I can't create chances and they are going to score sooner or later, even being my defense decent.

 

I wll complain later why Belotti doesn't score,he is completely uninvolved:

58e5792b3a7b4_VillarrealvValencia_StatsValenciaStats.thumb.png.709ce863523f8831588eceb866add643.png

 

 

58e5795016dbb_VillarrealvValencia_PitchFull.thumb.png.6384644c9323b19be7879340f4ff40ed.png

At least is good to see Calleri dropping deep to defend.

 

Finally, I conceded one goal. I think there was not much to do.

https://vid.me/oEqL

 

The game is already lost. Impossible to score. Look how defensive they went. I have literally no idea what to do. This moment is when I would start chopping.

58e579cf30b13_VillarrealvValencia_PitchFull-3.thumb.png.29d34dd4bc8e2944977ff08911c9faeb.png

 

I make a couple of substitutions due to low ratings (Calleri missed a clamorous goal, no gk)

58e57a28f109b_VillarrealvValencia_PitchFull-2.thumb.png.bf749661570cefaff4b7b52c010f27c5.png

 

Nothing. I lost

58e57a37cd2cf_VillarrealvValencia_OverviewOverview.thumb.png.296e26bba9a6d06adea56cba3a5f0a42.png

 

Edited by looping

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Your BWM was caught out, not dropping quickly enough, their AMC had the world of space and was only closed down after it was too late.

Was their AMC getting to drift through your lines like this all game, creating chances?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I don't like the BWM as the holding midfield, as he's caught out of position a lot of times, rather have an CM-D, if you want a destroyer, or an DLP-D, if you want a passer/sitter.

About Belotti, i really don't like 2 defensive forwards as a striking couple, i mean, WHO ATTACKS???? I rather have an AF, or CF-A than this. My opinions, though. But i think you need some cutting edge upfront, and an attacking minded center-forward could do the job, especially as he's your main goal threat, as you explained. But only my 2 cents, as you aren't creating many chances.

Cheers,
Bitner 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Next match

58e57ed44711f_ValenciavRealHispalis_OverviewFormations.thumb.png.658f267b8a7da015fdd4fbc55a498602.png

I'm going to play 3 games in 7 days and home game against Betis is the easiest one. I should win easily so I will rotate some players.

 

First shot on goal and they score. Not much to do.

https://vid.me/R8ba

 

My gk got injured

 

I'm doing absolutely nothing in attack. I'm going to lose for sure. I would start changing things now. What? No idea.

 

They scored the second goal. Let's make a couple of substitutions at least due to low rating (Belotti Suso)

https://vid.me/9wxR

 

Very luckily, I scored. Kuki, who replaced stupid Belotti.

https://vid.me/3iSb

 

I got a red card. I change to this:

58e580470536d_ValenciavRealHispalis_TacticsOverview-2.thumb.png.c51205dde95e8608a6412c2dd3863b8c.png

In my experience, when I go with 10 players I play far better than 11vs11.

 

Not even close. This is a total disaster.

58e5805bea495_ValenciavRealHispalis_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.46cc86e7073bf0a1dc73715ddec90cb6.png

 

 

 

Okay, I stop here. If I continue this way I'll be sacked soon. What additional information should I provide to know what I'm doing wrong?

- I'm sticking to one formation

- I'm making small adjustments trying to adapt to circumstances

- I'm not overreacting

- As usual, I'm losing.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
6 hours ago, looping said:

creative cm. risky passes, long shots, track back.

deep striker. link, close down defensive midfielder

striker. score goals.

DLP(s) has hold position enabled. He will be quite conservative and play it pretty safe positionally. It's okay if that's what you want though

DF(d) why? Why not a simple DLF(s). You will have better movement and link up play

DF(s) why? Why not an AF(a) or P(a) or any attacking-scoring goals type of role?

4 hours ago, looping said:

We are one on one. It's risky. I'm going to make a change:

NOPE. Not that kind of change, you change everything. Be more patient. I'd strongly suggest playing a whole season on flexible and the only change you can touch to be the mentality. This one, change it in-match as many times as you like

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The one set of stats you posted showed a very poor crossing completion ratio, if I'm correct that "Crs" means crosses. If the other matches looked the same, that will need some attention, given that most of your assists are probably going to need to come from them.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Looping, well done for doing this and sticking with it. The stats, whilst useful, are much better looked at in context with what you see happening. If you want to upload a PKM from one of the games I'd happily watch it and try and break down a couple of moves with some suggestions, but won't be able to until this evening.

One thing to note is not to expect that just because you change something in your system that it will always work. That wouldn't be realistic or much fun. Your decisions need to based on something tangible rather than "we need to defend the lead so I'll drop a DM in there". It can have consequences else where.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

The consensus from a few posters is that you should probably change Belotti to an advanced forward which is something that I agree with. Part of the problem is that you get contradicting advice but I think you should make this one change before your next game. Click on Belotti at the start of the game so he is highlighted and watch if he's performing better, look at the stats, pause the game regularly and have a look if he can receive the ball.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

As has been suggested, I changed BWM-de to Cm-de and DF-su to AF-at. I played a match. This screenshot shows the end of the match, so this was not my starting 11 (Kuki, Robert weren't starters, instead of them player Suso and Belotti)

58e61c2908cf9_LasPalmasvValencia_OverviewFormations.thumb.png.c22d3404125ec0c13f2bc8ab3a40a0e8.png

 

Min 20. Possession is 63-37. I remove more direct passing.

I'm being completely battered.

58e61c595788e_LasPalmasvValencia_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.8fe5a8f3a9501926c07837be764484a1.png

This is half time. Gk is the hero of the day. He even saved a penalty.

I'm going to lose this match if I'm not very lucky. In fact, 0-0 is only due to luck and excellent performance by gk.

 

Belotti is not playing better.

58e61c94d8615_LasPalmasvValencia_StatsValenciaStats.thumb.png.8deeb9bc1c45751add7632a12a94af9e.png

 

 

I made a couple of substitutions due to low ratings.

58e61cd430584_LasPalmasvValencia_TacticsOverview-2.thumb.png.2820b24b1d32c1dfe45e516c4d5319f2.png

 

I finally conceded a goal

https://vid.me/t409

 

This is awful

58e61cfc8a475_LasPalmasvValencia_AnalysisTeams-2.thumb.png.cb7b1828bf3bc706621b73e9d1b48c9e.png58e61d000c719_LasPalmasvValencia_OverviewOverview.thumb.png.955d85adc7388108621a7b34e6cdaa0d.png

Why Gaya was POM? Who knows.

 

 

Edited by looping

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Next match

58e6257308994_ValenciavGetafe_PreviewLineUps.thumb.png.ad5d6d851284b8e0c2e92f711a7068ad.png

This should be an easy match.

 

Min 20. Not a single shot.

58e62589732d9_ValenciavGetafe_PitchFull.thumb.png.ddb4459191e2b86fbf942fc2c068dbc8.png

 

This is half time.

58e625aadedbb_ValenciavGetafe_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.9c6fffa9fe9e4ade694416a728ee863d.png

 

 

Calleri injured. Belotti replaces him . Let's see how he performs as a df-de

58e625c72c004_ValenciavGetafe_Tactics_Overview-2.thumb.png.79b603c1f59d25646ac91be6b0624d3c.png

 

I got a player sent off. I can win now. I change my tactic. They are going to give me some space. Let's see if a dlf and af can exploit it.

58e625ec2e11a_ValenciavGetafe_PitchFull-2.thumb.png.f4da7e9701696656573897f931f71463.png58e626130bc64_ValenciavGetafe_TacticsOverview.thumb.png.0f6c1024fdd067978f9df09819536a88.png

 

I make a substitution due to low rating Kuki

58e6262924093_ValenciavGetafe_TacticsOverview-2.thumb.png.90d1f34746c36bfcdae8bb7582b03f56.png

 

They got a player sent off. 10 vs 10. I'm not going to win.

58e62648caef4_ValenciavGetafe_PitchFull-3.thumb.png.8165fc80838869dec1430b4615818616.png

 

It looks a bit better but it's due to my player sent off.. Anyway, most of shots are long rage/set pieces.

58e626803e053_ValenciavGetafe_AnalysisPost-Match.thumb.png.f3ad06cbb7822a6ca12b23c552ab6cb7.png58e626c16d822_ValenciavGetafe_AnalysisTeams-2.thumb.png.b65b68adb15a6168d5f43474efd1163a.png

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Everything is going down the drain. Morale is low:

58e6275a0d90c_Valencia_PlayersPlayers.thumb.png.5d0ced7d2e415dc5fe571521b7259e1f.png

 

I'm going to hold a team meeting

 

58e627898ca29_Valencia_TeamMeeting-2.thumb.png.e358b174660789c9aa29837c6de74d66.png

58e627997a58d_Valencia_PlayersPlayers-2.thumb.png.9e9d3174681c7ad9fb9680287d5cd6a3.png

Morale better now. It's now going to have no effect in terms of results but it's an orthodox measure.

 

 

Edited by looping

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
22 hours ago, herne79 said:

3) slow down.  You don't know why you are doing something, only that you think you should do something, and then just carry on regardless.  That's a recipe for disaster.

So what are you learning from all of these matches you are playing?

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

So what are you learning from all of these matches you are playing?

For instance:

This is a typical attack situation in the match against Getafe:

58e62a45975e8_ValenciavGetafe_PitchFull.thumb.png.fb647317cc3d667e3667f2fee09ca237.png

 

It's 5 vs 9. It's never going to work. I need more players involved in attacking. I could:

- Increase mentality to control (and remove more direct passing because control already has direct passing upfront. I would also remove push higher for the same reason)

- Increase shape to fluid (more players involved in transitions, higher mentality for fullbacks)

- Change left wm-at to support, and give left fb an attack duty, so I have an additional threat down the flank (6 vs 9, still wouldn't work probably)

 

I did nothing for two reasons:

a) I've been told to stick to the initial formation

b) Most important: I've already tried any of the above options, even combinations of all (in previous saves) and nothing works.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Control = your ball transitions faster, structured encourages the attack duties to take more risks too since their mentality is affected. Shape will affect how many get involve in the transition Therefore the situation you see.

 

 

check duties, check role of the attackers. 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

So you identified an area you wanted to improve (getting more players involved in attack), identified 3 different possible solutions, and then did nothing because "nothing works".

That right there is a big part of your problem.  I can understand why you might feel that way having bashed your head against this wall for the best part of a year now, but if you play the game with this pessimistic attitude which prevents you doing things, then your current level of results will continue.

Take a long break.  This is beyond a tactical discussion.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Well, i guess structured could be what you think about football, but i don't think it what you need. 

As stated in another topic, 4-4-2 is the formation which is good at everything, but master of none. With that in mind, i think the team should play more as... a team. Which will mean an Fluid approach, as it will be more compact. Again, my 2 cents, as i haven't noticed it before.

Cheers,
Bitner 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
13 minutes ago, herne79 said:

So you identified an area you wanted to improve (getting more players involved in attack), identified 3 different possible solutions, and then did nothing because "nothing works".

That right there is a big part of your problem.  I can understand why you might feel that way having bashed your head against this wall for the best part of a year now, but if you play the game with this pessimistic attitude which prevents you doing things, then your current level of results will continue.

Take a long break.  This is beyond a tactical discussion.

Evil interpretation of my words. Really disappointed by this answer. I can't even understand why are you saying this.

I've got de the perception if I had applied any of the 3 solutions some of you would, again, accused me of chopping, changing things too fast. I was sticking to a tactic, giving it some time to see how it goes.  That's why I did nothing because I was afraid of you closing my thread because I changed things too fast. This is exactly what prevented me  changing things.

In addition, I have tried all the solutions in the past and no, didn't work, so I assumed were not good decisions. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
38 minutes ago, D_LO_ said:

The moment I saw you were trying with 4-4-2 (again) I knew this thread was going to descend into this (again)

It's a really difficult formation to get working in FM and it seems to get harder every year. I read your comments on how it's a pretty standard formation but actually it's not used that much, not any more. Leicester were very much an anomaly last season. Even in the Prem. where it was probably persisted with for longer than on the continent it has become a real rarity (barring of course Leicester and Burnley) There are definitely limits with the ME which prevent some of the replication people may expect, especially defensively which means in FM expectations need to be adapted. 

 

I can understand some of your frustrations as inevitably some of our posts are becoming contradictory, 'dont change anything for a while', 'why aren't you making changes' etc. It is becoming a semi-rant yet again though and the desperation just ends up spreading to the advice. 

I guess personally I'm quietly wishing you would use a more 'orthodox' formation for 2017. Something which allows you to control midfield, with a good defensive basis and some protection whilst using at least one proper striker at the same time. If you don't heed Herne's advice and take a break, for your own sanity you need to get some results and going back to basics formation-wise is something for the last few weeks I can't get away from from reading your posts. I think A LOT of people here would struggle with 4-4-2 or 5-3-2 strikerless. The crux is I just think you're being too ambitious at the moment and maybe you need to see some good things happening and building on that would be a better approach rather than vice versa, before attempting harder formations. 

 

If you are adamant of sticking to the 4-4-2 do some youtube research on the formation. @Rashidi used a derivative but with a DM for 2 or 3 shows, maybe worth considering. I'm afraid I can't remember when this was I'm fairly sure it was with Gloucester in the Conference or League Two. I may also be wrong here but from my poor memory I'm sure even Rashidi  had mixed results with the formation, albeit with relegation favourites Gloucester, which only reiterates my point about the difficulty of using this formation (I know you said you watched his videos but a couple re-watches of these few won't hurt)

I sent you a PM.

Anyway, call me stubborn if you want, but if I don't receive a letter from SI saying the ME is wrong and I can't play a 442 I'll stick to it. If I'm on the right track and there are people who still want to help, I have no problem on waiting  for some time until I get results. After all, I've been more than one year failing.

I'll play some more matches and now I will try to apply some tweaks. I will do it patiently and step by step so no chopping. Let' see how it goes.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, D_LO_ said:

I don't know if it's stubbornness or tenacity but it's somewhat admirable even if it gets difficult to read at times. 

Don't forget:

On 5/4/2017 at 11:27, looping said:

used in the past other tactics than 442. I conceded all my football principles to adapt to fm. I played 433 (41221) which is a formation I totally hate. I played with IF, a role I totally disapprove. Overlapping fb, being against them. 

According to you, any tactic that has no fundamental mistake should allow me to play the game, even if I don't watch matches. In my experience, that's not what happens..

gk

fb(su) cd(de) cd(de) fb(at)

dm(de)

cm(at) ap(su)

w(su) if(su

cf(su)

Control, Flexible

No Pi, TI.

 

Ok, this tactic it's not perfect (I "created" it while writing this) but has no fundamental mistake. There is nothing fundamentally wrong. It can be improved, that's right, and we could get into a deep discussion but that's not the point.

We need a team and the players. Randomly I choose Arsenal. Let's say:

Cech

Bellerin Koscienly Mustafi Gibbs

Coquelin

Ramsey Ozil

Walcott Sanchez

Giroud

(...)

On 5/4/2017 at 11:27, looping said:

The fact is that using this tactic I'll be sacked. And I know it because I've tried.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, looping said:

In addition, I have tried all the solutions in the past and no, didn't work, so I assumed were not good decisions.

Looping, you must understand that everything is contextual. The changes you make based on one game against one team may be all well and good and based on what you've seen play out, but they may not work the next week as you may be up against a different system, and certainly different players. That's why you need a good understanding of your system, so you can identify where it's weaknesses are, not against just one team in one isolated match, but you can see it before it happens when you see the opponents team sheet.

So far out of all those matches with this 4-4-2, I've only seen one thing that could maybe be interpreted as analysis from yourself which was this from the game against Getafe:

Quote

It's 5 vs 9. It's never going to work. I need more players involved in attacking

Fine. Well done for spotting that. But you then suggested three things you could do to change this (whether they were correct or not is by the by) but did none of them reasoning that you know they wouldn't work because you've tried them before. And don't say it's because we all told you not to change anything. Yes, we did say that, over and over. But that was to get you to stop abandoning an entire system 3 times per match. We'd all be more than happy if you made small changes based on what you see as that is pretty much what we've all been telling you to do for this whole thread. If you were doing that you'd be making progress.

You need to watch those games and spot where your system is failing. Don't say you can't or you don't understand. You can and you do. Slow down.

EDIT: Don't worry about the 4-4-2 talk. At this point I don't think it would matter if you were using a 1-2-7. You can get it to work, just be patient.

Edited by Craigus89

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I am no expert at FM and like you have been playing since the good ole days of stefan selakovic being a legend in CM 01 - 02. I think some people have been harsh on you, I dont think you have ignored advice, I think that maybe you have found it difficult to understand it but still tried to implement what people have said. I am no where near the levels of FM knowledge as some of these but I do understand where they are coming from to an extent.

Ive read the posts and to be fair mate non of your tactics have been fluid. For me you cant judge a tactic until its fully fluid, I will never judge a tactic before christmas in a game as the team is still learning it even when fluid. Once it is fluid i then switch match training to teamwork so the players communicate better and i feel this helps too. I will only change this until the team have forged a strong understanding.

I did take exception to you saying that using someone elses tactics is sort of cheating, is driving a 2nd hand car cheating because someone used it before you? I have found in previous versions of FM that looking at other tactics has helped me create my own, you will usually find that the successful tactics usually have the same roles, This year I am founding that the most popular tactic's are using 3 at the back and the roles are usually BPD ST. That therefore tells me that BPD ST is a good role to use whilst creating my own, It has to be a solid role if successful tactics are using it. 

I will only use SS and DLF as a combo, dont ask me why but i just seem it always works for me, plus i also think the game tells you that the SS links in well with a DLF.

Dont get me wrong I am not having a go, i like your drive and passion to make this work. Just stick with it. but then judge once fluid and train your players to play in the roles you want.

Good luck

Just to add too, I would never use shorter passing for a counter tactic at the very least I would use is mixed or more towards direct. For me, counter should be able to soak up the pressure then hit quickly and ironically directly.

Edited by CBP87

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, Craigus89 said:

Fine. Well done for spotting that. But you then suggested three things you could do to change this (whether they were correct or not is by the by) but did none of them reasoning that you know they wouldn't work because you've tried them before. And don't say it's because we all told you not to change anything. Yes, we did say that, over and over. But that was to get you to stop abandoning an entire system 3 times per match. We'd all be more than happy if you made small changes based on what you see as that is pretty much what we've all been telling you to do for this whole thread. If you were doing that you'd be making progress.

Exactly this.

5 hours ago, looping said:

It's 5 vs 9. It's never going to work. I need more players involved in attacking. I could:

- Increase mentality to control (and remove more direct passing because control already has direct passing upfront. I would also remove push higher for the same reason)

- Increase shape to fluid (more players involved in transitions, higher mentality for fullbacks)

- Change left wm-at to support, and give left fb an attack duty, so I have an additional threat down the flank (6 vs 9, still wouldn't work probably)

Big fan of trying out the second or third option, with a slight edge for 2nd

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Someone on the last page mentioned trialling stuff in FMT. I wonder @looping if it might benefit you starting afresh in that game mode? It will remove any impact of Tactical Familiarity and enable you to make the changes you want without any detrimental impact on players' "knowledge of the system".

At least if you do that it will rule out Tactical Familiarity as an obstacle obstructing your progress. Just a thought.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

3 hours ago, Craigus89 said:

ut did none of them reasoning that you know they wouldn't work because you've tried them before. And don't say it's because we all told you not to change anything.

I didn't change anything because I was afraid of people saying I was chopping and mods closing the thread. You can believe or not, but that's the truth.

I wanted to show how strictly I was following advice. It's very easy to quote my first post in this thread and say "Looping, after all advice given you are doing the same (chopping) than in your first post in this thread. There is no progress, thread closed".

I'm not attacking you mods, I really appreciate your help but everytime I post I'm afraid of you closing the thread. I'm putting a big effort here and I don't want it to go down the drain. That's why I was so cautious on changing things.

 

I'm not quoting anybody else but I've read all of you very attentively.

As for the future, I'll try to sort this save. If I'm sacked, I will start a new one on FMT.

 

From the games, it seems there are 2 basic problems:

1. Controlling midfield.

I struggle to control the called Golden Zone and this space is exploited regularly by strikers dropping deep, AM (any role) and midfielders making forward runs. Let's try to control it better and for that reason I'm going to make a single duty change. My dlp to defend. He will be more defensive focused and I expect him to stop transitions and deny space to opponents.

With defend duty, a dlp will be less likely to make risky and long passes so I'll add him more risky passes and more direct passing PI.

His pair will be again a bwm because while the dlp will hold position, the bwm will hassle opponents aggressively (more than a cm-de, but I could use that role too)

 

2. Creating chances

I want a striker dropping deep and another pushing forward. Let's keep it simple and follow the descriptions of the game:

dlf-su af-at

This is exactly what they do.

I will increase shape to flexible for the reasons already exposed (I could go also fluid) and remove more direct passing, as long as is something that I've done twice during the matches, so it seems to be a general problem.

 

I'll play a couple of matches and let's see how it goes.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
7 minutes ago, looping said:

From the games, it seems there are 2 basic problems:

You can mitigate the first problem of  lack of control in that zone with a fluidity change. That way you won't have to alter the way your DLP behaves.So, i suggest flexible -> fluid

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

I've never really got a 4-4-2 to work well (except in lower leagues where you can play some hilarious and effective hoofball) so take this advice with a grain of salt. But I would avoid putting a DLP in a 4-4-2 formation. Reason being that he will attract the ball in the place where you are weakest: in the center of the pitch. I consider the 4-4-2 a "bad" formation because it's very hard to control the all-important center. You can make any formation work though if you have the right players and roles. I would think that workhorses would be necessary in the middle of a 4-4-2. I have a mind to try this formation next, and will use a BWM-D and BBM-S in the center as my workhorses.

I'm sure people could and have made a DLP work in a 4-4-2, but he will need the right roles and duties around him so that he doesn't just get closed down or marked out of the game without any passing options.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

 

On 5.4.2017 at 11:27, looping said:

I struggle to believe that anybody can play this game without a deep knowledge. I can't figure out how they do it without cheating, and cheating includes downloading tactics.

That's how I see your threads and why I've decided to bow out. They make no sense to me. Lots I know who play this without downloading anything aren't aware of anything more in-depth, including dissertations about team shape or anything. There's something missing, and this was fantastically illustrated by pheelf. He may have made slight alterations, but he not even stayed in the job, but did well with the same team and tactics. He questioned your player selection, nothing. He put your transfer policy under doubt, no reaction. Nobody knows what you are doing, outside of such telling glimpses (replacing the entire team!), it's never shown.  Football Management has arguably four cornerstones. Man/squad management, tactical management, transfer policy, media handling/PR. All you are considering is that one part of the job, and whilst it is true that you can outperform AI here (same as you can outperform AI squad development, already linked Dafuge), you wouldn't need to be tactical expert to do well. That's the last one from me, puzzled this was completely ignored.

On 5.4.2017 at 14:27, pheelf said:

I think I'll repeat what I wrote near the beginning of my first post in this thread. There is more to this game than just tactics!!...I've proven to you that the tactic you created is sound enough to have your chosen team Valencia in 3rd when the expectation is to finish 5th so there is nothing broken with the tactic and no I don't have some special version of FM which gives me an advantage (be great if I did!!).

 

 

 

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
19 hours ago, looping said:

For instance:

This is a typical attack situation in the match against Getafe:

58e62a45975e8_ValenciavGetafe_PitchFull.thumb.png.fb647317cc3d667e3667f2fee09ca237.png

 

It's 5 vs 9. It's never going to work. I need more players involved in attacking. I could:

- Increase mentality to control (and remove more direct passing because control already has direct passing upfront. I would also remove push higher for the same reason)

- Increase shape to fluid (more players involved in transitions, higher mentality for fullbacks)

- Change left wm-at to support, and give left fb an attack duty, so I have an additional threat down the flank (6 vs 9, still wouldn't work probably)

 

I did nothing for two reasons:

a) I've been told to stick to the initial formation

b) Most important: I've already tried any of the above options, even combinations of all (in previous saves) and nothing works.

I'm simply going to focus on this one screenshot (as you say it is a typical attack). Yes, it is 5 vs 9 but why can it not work? You're playing the ball down to the right winger, if your right sided striker makes a run behind the defence he'd be in on goal. At this point there is no point in that player crossing as there is no one in the box. But the one glaring thing for me is that the opposition right back has been drawn in which has left so much space for your left winger.

Now look at the players doing nothing, your full backs and the more defensive midfield. The opposition have completely ignored these as an attacking threat, here's where your advantage is and where you should be making changes (during this game alone). Defensively you are on top, they can't even put in a cross against you that isn't dealt with. The opposition have basically put 4 players to mark your strikers, but the channels (the area between the centre back and full back) are completely and utterly open. I would have one, or both, strikers play into the channels which will stretch the defence then have a deeper runner from midfield to follow up. I'd also have the full backs push up further to overload (maybe even overlap, there's little danger of a counter) the sparse wide areas.

The opposition has 1 player in your half, you have 5. As long as you have decent centre backs I'd push your defensive line up (again, just in this instance), hopefully this would have the knock on effect of pushing your team further forward but that would need to be tested.

You're conceding a fair amount of fouls and have had players sent off in other games, look as to why that is happening.

What you have to understand is that is one screenshot, I can give my opinion and I can point out where I feel the weaknesses are but it's up to you to implement.

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
3 hours ago, Svenc said:

 

That's how I see your threads and why I've decided to bow out. They make no sense to me. Lots I know who play this without downloading anything aren't aware of anything more in-depth, including dissertations about team shape or anything. There's something missing, and this was fantastically illustrated by pheelf. He may have made slight alterations, but he not even stayed in the job, but did well with the same team and tactics. He questioned your player selection, nothing. He put your transfer policy under doubt, no reaction. Nobody knows what you are doing, outside of such telling glimpses (replacing the entire team!), it's never shown.  Football Management has arguably four cornerstones. Man/squad management, tactical management, transfer policy, media handling/PR. All you are considering is that one part of the job, and whilst it is true that you can outperform AI here (same as you can outperform AI squad development, already linked Dafuge), you wouldn't need to be tactical expert to do well. That's the last one from me, puzzled this was completely ignored.

 

 

 

I didn't ignore it. Nothing has been ignored. Please stop saying that because it's not true

I can play the game successfully for some time. You perfectly know that I can play some matches and win. I can (regularly, not in this save) have decent results, even outperforming, for some time until I start losing. I've explained it a lot of times.

 This happens because in the first matches teams play very attacking and I can hit them on the counter. When they start sitting deep I can't unlock them. Keep, please, this in mind. I can have good results for some time until, at some point, I start conceding an outrageous amount of goals.  I've posted this pattern a lot of times and you've seen it.

In my last save with Milan, I had decent (not good) results. I struggled to score. For that reason, in my third season I signed 2 strikers/AM (Berardi, Bernardeschi) so I can stop playing 5-3-2 strikerless (I didn't have wingers, AM, strikers) and move to 433 or something similar. This was posted and explained. I was sacked with my team in relegation zone. You can check it if you want.

In a save with Arsenal, I only made 1 signing: Yarmolenko, because I didn't have a left footed winger. I was sacked in the first season (January), because, after a good/very good start, in december I started conceding an outrageous amount of goals.

I pay attention to reports before signing a player. Not only stars. No, I'm not that kind of guy. I see if the player will fit in my team, his personality, etc.. I never sign players with low determination, work rate, teamwork and composure (and bravery, to some extent). I also take on account ppm: If I want a winger running wide I won't sign a player who cuts inside from both flanks.

I played uncountable saves with Malaga. The pattern is always the same: I start well until, at some random point in the first/second season, I start conceding an outrageous amount of goals and I can't beat anybody.

I pay attention to my squad, their morale, press conferences everything. I know what I can say to relief pressure or motivate my players. I go to team talk feedback and pay attention to that. Even when the effect of this is not huge.

I can play the game succesfully for some time (months, even a couple of seasons some time) until something clicks and I start conceding an outrageous amount of goals and whatever I do I lose. This hasn't happened in my current save with Valencia yet. I'm still in a period where I can play the game. I start the matches and I can win or lose. My current save is fine and understandable: I have a lot of new players but, according to my last results, these are slightly and slowly improving. If I'm not sacked before, I'll have a 10-12 games good run. Later, at some point, I will start conceding an outrageous amount of goals and then yes, I will only lose.

This is the pattern. This is what I'm experiencing. Keep it in mind please.

 

 

Edited by looping

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Ok then let's ignore what's happened in the past. Right now what goals are you conceding and where are they coming from? When you start seeing this slump, re-visit again and figure out where the goals are coming from. Let's use a scientific method to see if we can determine what is happening. Right now I doubt you're conceding too many goals from crosses. So, if in six months, you start conceding several from there then we need to figure out why.

If I was facing you and saw that crosses were useless I'd change my tactics, after a certain amount of games maybe that's simply what is happening. There may be a glaring weakness that right now is not being exploited that eventually is. The data is there and by sticking to one formation there's a better chance people can help you.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
2 hours ago, looping said:

I didn't ignore it. Nothing has been ignored. Please stop saying that because it's not true

I'm sure you didn't ignore it for yourself. I'm sure you've always naturally taking it all aboard, as else you wouldn't be so frustrated. But here you ignored the specific questions posted about your player selection and transfers, effectively reducing a quality and viable post to casually pointing out that he (or his assistant rather) lost a pre-season friendly still. You immediately progressed to post match screenshots, as in like the past 1.5 years and no idea how many failed saves. Granted, this is the tactics forums. But given that you have admitted to struggling with reading the match play, this seems the definition of madness: doing the same over and over again and expecting different.  You can post how you consider everything, but personally I've never seen you demonstrating how you are really managing wholesale, instead still insisting that the game were totally about tactics and totally rocket science on that that is to master. It isn't. Better players open up spaces all the time against worse ones, unless they're terribly mismanaged. At the top you may have noticed this yourself, one Messi dribbling cutting through your massed defense at a time, and even average dribblers will face worse defenders multiple times a season. I still think you'd be far better off enquiring somebody such as dafuge and those threads, with as much detail as you do here on the tactics front. In particular considering you were arguing this were happening regardless of any tactics you picked before. If that isn't a clue, I don't know what is.  Speaking about managing wholesale, still beating players down when they may need a lift?

Once the awful results start, I simply don't know what to say. I start with bad luck, because we are still doing well, and after 4-5 bad games aggressive embarrassing. Probably this is my mistake? I'm starting to think so...



Anyway, all the best!

Edited by Svenc

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites

Okay, I was sacked, even when I've won 2 of my last 4 matches (two defeats against Madrid and Barcelona). I think I was on the right track and that's why, even when I know I said I would start a new save on FMT, I will restart my Valencia save in the first match. Because I think I've found something and I want to try it for some more matches. If it doesn't work I'll go to FMT with a new save.

Well, I played the first match against Sevilla again. 

58e75bf64372a_SevillavValencia_OverviewOverview-2.thumb.png.2e777207061506b075d1e8dbe8458487.png

58e75d76939a9_SevillavValencia_AnalysisTeams.thumb.png.b29a675767af6107a58b2341a296a87b.png58e75d791abb3_SevillavValencia_AnalysisTeams-2.thumb.png.3cb1c5ceb62bc7c14f2fb655eb4c4717.png

Incidentally, the result was the same 2-2. But it's not really important.

They scored both headers by Fellaini (corner kicks) and I didn't win just because my strikers decided to miss any possible chance they had. Just a few examples:

https://vid.me/oALL

https://vid.me/Sxhn

https://vid.me/IXai

https://vid.me/aYbF

https://vid.me/39wb

We are doing exactly what I want, except scoring... I know I we can do it because they are playing attacking and giving space but,this is a start at least.

 

My tactic is

58e767403305f_Valencia_Overview.thumb.png.4f7711b8258305c72964c10ccfae5e07.png

I went for more generic roles and, most important, fluid shape. I read the suggestions here and https://community.sigames.com/topic/400065-building-a-squad-to-win/ Playing very fluid puts most of my team on the same mentality, and in the defensive third nearly every player there will be on the same mentality. If I find that this "ice-skater" is an issue, I go very fluid and counter, with a normal to slightly deep defensive line. This creates walls of players he needs to dribble past

 

This gave me the idea to go fluid+stick to positions to compress space in the middle.

The other TI is be more disciplined so my players focus in their roles and duties. No creative freedom. I can untick this instruction against defensive teams cause this additional creativity can help unlock defenses.

I added more risky passes and more direct passing to mi cm-su so he acts as a creator.

I'm not sure about adding push higher up TI. This would compress the space even more, defense and midfield line closer. This highlight may suggest I need to do that

https://vid.me/FqqX

Number 22 (probably false9) is in acres of space, despite the ball was not passed to him.

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
5 minutes ago, looping said:

Because I think I've found something and I want to try it for some more matches. If it doesn't work I'll go to FMT with a new save.

We are doing exactly what I want, except scoring... I know I we can do it because they are playing attacking and giving space but,this is a start at least.t passing to mi cm-su so he acts as a creator

You sound like you are getting a better understanding of the system as a whole and have changed it to do as you want. Well done.

Now when you analyse the games, don't get distracted or frustrated if you feel you are slumping, try to observe if the changes you made have definitely given you the play you want to see. Give it a few home and away games against different opposition to see.

Then if you do have the usual slump mid way through the season you'll know where the system is failing.

Share this post


Link to post
Share on other sites
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...