westy8chimp Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 Inspired by a combination of; Frustration vs weaker sides (I'm PSG so often face parked busses [and anchored freight ships]) Man City's tactic tonight I have created a 'defenderless' formation. There is some thought behind it, not just 'gaming' - why wouldn't it work? Defensive Theory: I have a mix of pace and aerial ability across a 5 man midfield.. with a sweeper keeper.. the opposition has to make very precise passes between my midfield and keeper AND have a quick, composed striker who can latch on to it ... control it, run with it and beat the keeper without being caught by my backtracking mids. I can have an effective pressing game with 10 men in the opponent half Attacking Theory: win ball back in attacking areas numbers in support overload - high tempo Did it work ... results wise .. yes. Tactical theory... 50/50 Well, we won the game. But it was 4-3 and Guidetti scored a hatrick. I think it goes into my 3rd slot specifically, as intended, against weak sides intent on defending. Certainly not to be discarded immediately. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
bosque Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 I will keep an eye on this Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
herne79 Posted March 15, 2017 Share Posted March 15, 2017 There's always a way to produce some crazy looking system which will upset the ME simply because the game isn't designed that way. Remember you're also playing as PSG and I doubt Vigo did much other than line up in a defensive manner - yet they still put 3 goals past you. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
alex1234 Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 You might get lucky with this approach in few matches but it's not the perfect solution ...... I followed this links approach and have been quite successful against weaker teams https://strikerless.com/2017/02/26/towing-away-a-parked-bus-breaking-down-a-defence/ Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noikeee Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Even the worst, most negative teams in the world will attack you, and all they need is to hit a hopeful long ball that eventually finds the path of a quick forward. The only way this will work is if the ME's seriously borked in some way. Vs a parked bus such as a defensive 4-5-1 or 5-4-1, I do think it's best to get rid of any useless players at the back, but never to this extreme. When I played an assymetric 4-1-4-1 AML, what I'd do is switch my DM to a DM/S role (hence relieve him of unnecessary defensive duties) and retain my fullbacks on their rather attacking roles/duties by default - so only 2 men really stay at the back. Now that I'm playing a 3-4-1-2 type system, what I do is switch to a 4-3-1-2 with the 2 fullbacks being completely relieved of any defending. Essentially it's the same thing - only the 2 centrebacks really stay behind. But the numbers game isn't the whole story, you need to create movement by using roles that drag players out of place, maximize the space on the pitch by maybe ramping up width, be mildly patient with the ball (ideally a sweet spot of rushing to capitalize on any opening but retain a cool head when the opening's not there), pressure them very high up in turn when they have the ball so they don't just hold on to it forever (easy to do in defensive mentalities). Alternatively if everything else fails, maybe the brute force method of lumping it into a really good, big target man isn't a terrible idea neither. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enigmatic Posted March 16, 2017 Share Posted March 16, 2017 Have to say I'm struggling to understand the point of this with the personnel you've picked. In a more conventional attacking back 4 you'd still have Rogmanoli and Marquinhos pushed up to the halfway line and wingbacks crossing from the byline whilst you were on the attack, but they'd also be more likely to play the offside trap properly and get tight on Guidetti and you might feel a bit more comfortable freeing up Matuidi to participate a bit more in attacking moves or close down opponents rather than hold a defensive position. If I were to try something similar, it'd probably be more because the opposition were so weak going forward (removed their striker after going down to ten men or Andorra/non-league level) I'd expect conventional centre backs to contribute nothing to the game bar mopping up clearances and prefer a couple of quality passers to perform that function whilst being assigned their natural position of DLP(D) to start moves from the back and stretch the opposition defence. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westy8chimp Posted March 17, 2017 Author Share Posted March 17, 2017 21 hours ago, noikeee said: and all they need is to hit a hopeful long ball that eventually finds the path of a quick forward partly covered by fact the striker has to start in his own half... has to be quicker than the likes of Bellerin, Kurzawa, Marquinhos. And the ball has to beat the sweeper keeper (which doesn't really work in FM... my idea was the sweeper keeper would have an advanced starting position and come to claim the ball as last man... in practice the sweeper keepers do not act as a last defender... but just advances further when in possession of the ball). It was partly a jest partly a test... but a little bit of thought behind it that it is for very specific situations.. so not if you are Hull playing Arsenal with the likes of Walcott and Sanchez.... but more Arsenal at home to Burnley where Sam Vokes is never going to run 50 yards with the ball without being caught by bellerin for instance. Guidetti is perhaps too strong for the tactic and Vigo didn't sit back as intended... ------------------------------ On 15/03/2017 at 23:47, herne79 said: Remember you're also playing as PSG and I doubt Vigo did much other than line up in a defensive manner - yet they still put 3 goals past you 23 hours ago, alex1234 said: You might get lucky with this approach in few matches but it's not the perfect solution ...... -------------------------- agree completely ... will only work as a heavy favourite so then can never really point to the tactic being better than another. But that wasn't really the aim... it was just a more fun way of breaking down a team, never intended as a perfect solution or "look at this, my advice is to go all out attack and you will always win". On the same note there was a little thought and theory to go with it ... never meant to be a stupid whacky tactic to break the ME or be 'gamey' I've always thought, when watching my team Arsenal get thrashed by the big teams, if our full backs are going to play as wingers ... and the opposition keep getting 4 vs 2 attacks on our CBs ... surely we'd be better off with no one at the back at all... rather than 2 guys getting overwhelmed and playing everyone onside. So partly a jest (obviously the real life solution is a solid DM! or full backs that don't over commit so much ... or a double pivot ...) but the good thing about FM is to turn wild theory into practice and see how you get on. The game was good to watch, we got the win as expected, wont use it again unless im against a park the bus side with a slow striker or no striker. ------------------------------ 20 hours ago, enigmatic said: the point of this with the personnel you've picked. in line with above it was more a bit of fun with a little bit of theory ... not me saying I cant use attacking wing backs, high line, etc to create an overload ... the personnel was due to a combo of injuries, ineligables and small squad... but also I wanted pace (bellerin, kurzwa, marquinhos) to be able to run back and intercept long balls quicker than striker... but also tackling and heading on the half way line was key. di Maria as defensive forward on defend got a hatrick Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
noikeee Posted March 17, 2017 Share Posted March 17, 2017 15 minutes ago, westy8chimp said: partly covered by fact the striker has to start in his own half... has to be quicker than the likes of Bellerin, Kurzawa, Marquinhos. And the ball has to beat the sweeper keeper (which doesn't really work in FM... my idea was the sweeper keeper would have an advanced starting position and come to claim the ball as last man... in practice the sweeper keepers do not act as a last defender... but just advances further when in possession of the ball). It was partly a jest partly a test... but a little bit of thought behind it that it is for very specific situations.. so not if you are Hull playing Arsenal with the likes of Walcott and Sanchez.... but more Arsenal at home to Burnley where Sam Vokes is never going to run 50 yards with the ball without being caught by bellerin for instance. Guidetti is perhaps too strong for the tactic and Vigo didn't sit back as intended... It's still crazy. You can play a high line with defenders instead and they'll still sit in the opponents half. What you have now, if the opponents by chance get a bit of ball and start moving forward, you don't retreat into any barely recognisable or coherent defensive shape whatsoever. It doesn't even need a striker quicker than your defenders, all it takes is a well timed movement into a random ball and suddenly one of theirs is clear on goal. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westy8chimp Posted March 17, 2017 Author Share Posted March 17, 2017 8 minutes ago, noikeee said: It's still crazy. You can play a high line with defenders instead and they'll still sit in the opponents half. What you have now, if the opponents by chance get a bit of ball and start moving forward, you don't retreat into any barely recognisable or coherent defensive shape whatsoever. It doesn't even need a striker quicker than your defenders, all it takes is a well timed movement into a random ball and suddenly one of theirs is clear on goal. quite the opposite... I should have posted it... it looked too messy to bother... but the interception points of my back 5 ..something like 50+ were as deep as the corner flags ... so it showed they did run back ... not into a shape, but that's because there can be no attacking shape from the opponents with no offside line. So if they cleared the ball to their right wing... Kurzwa was running back to intercept before their rw could get there... likewise LW.. and Guidetti scored 3 because his pace is higher than matuidi and romognoli. If I played it again id probably have kurzwa and bellein mcl and mcr respectively and pacey wingers on the wm roles. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
enigmatic Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 No sooner did I criticise this formation than Man Utd actually deployed it against Rostov, complete with central defenders playing like very awkward midfielders Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sherdil Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 I have encountered strikerless formations and have even used them in the past but DM and Defenderless is something new to me. This looks interesting! Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
knap Posted March 19, 2017 Share Posted March 19, 2017 I sent a defenderless game I'd won a few FMs ago to SI to look at. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
westy8chimp Posted March 22, 2017 Author Share Posted March 22, 2017 I've carried on using it sparingly, I've tweaked the roles and the way I fill the positions... No defenders as make shift CMs now... I've had a couple more transfer windows to sign box to box mids. It's now 4 3 3 with --- DF-- F9-- DF--- as the front line and ---if--ss--if--- in AM ---dw--bbm--bbm--dw--- in midfield. Tempted to bin off the keeper for a DM if possible. Link to post Share on other sites More sharing options...
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