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Football Manager 2017 17.3.0 Official Feedback Thread

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10 hours ago, Govnar1 said:

It's far too easy to crowd midfield and dominate possession against much stronger opposition. Passing ball trough traffic in packed central areas is also far too easy even for technically deficient players.  

Another issue is, in my opinion, poor implementation of pressing. Prolonged passing sequences completely destroy defensive shape. This is killing AI as it can't work around this issue.  

Besides, players (especially central defenders) too frequently abandon key areas in front of goal to close down

 

 

Decent observations! Crowding the midfield and dominating possession has been a bit of a long-term issue. This goes two-fold: Players confuse dominating possession with "playing well" (naturally some boards in-game meanwhile demand you to play a possession based game too). Either way, it's one of those stats that tends to be focused on. However it's traditionally one of the causes why some experience what they experience (lots of weak attempts to no return on many an occasion), as naturally crowding the midfield typically doesn't create all that much space and stretch defenders as they have no distance to travel to close down, etc. They're immediately near to the next guy who receives the next pass who would clear and deflect. When going extreme here prior, you would almost completely depend on individual player quality to create space, a dribbling, a genius through ball, etc. which naturally all come off (better sides mostly win against worse ones). Probably a reason why the more aggressive mentalities tend to go wider by default. Probably also a reason why teams in football have tended to stretch the pitch ever since Ajax 1972 when trying to score.

On FM 2017, those central areas have been weakened though significantly in defending compared to prior. There have been threads about this, if you haven't picked them up. Whilst defending, central midfielders get little if any support from anybody neither from wide nor in front of them, so outnumbering in central midfield tends to overload and calls central defenders up to the job. It's one of the reasons why 3 CB formations are so popular this season (additional cover when a CB steps up), same as anything that packs that centre. Lots of DMC/MC/AMC are a good bet. This goes two-fold as well. Much worse sides get a foot into matches they have no business getting a foot in in AI vs AI matches based on their formational pick (like League 1 vs Premier League), hurting the world simulation. It's also arguably lead to one of the biggest exploits in more recent years, though it slightly reminds of an old one where the deepest central midfielder in about FM 2009 in certain formations always tended to be unmarked and get into positions where he couldn't just recycle possession unopposed (happens here for sure) but also play dangerous balls unopposed after pushing further up (happens as well). There naturally tends to be a couple of AI formations that pack the middle rendering that less effective, which is when those exploit tactics report back with the 50 shots no goal matches, but otherwise the big weak area of this one.

However it seems under review, and having recently read this, I'm fairly confident SI are aware of all of this. :D

Quote

Paul is a perfectionist. He finds it hard to play the game for fun now because he’ll sit there looking for problems in the match engine and if he spots them, he’ll want to immediately produce a new patch to fix them.

“The challenge for me, writing the match engine, is to make the game as challenging as possible,” he tells me. “I want the other teams to be smart. I don’t want it to be impossible of course, but I think if people are winning the league with teams in the first season that wouldn’t win the league in real life then something is clearly wrong. So, for me, it’s good that you found it hard.”

Quote
Edited by Svenc

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Interesting article, not sure about Tom's assessment of the attacking tactic though, I'll have to have a word if I bump into him.

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@Svenci haven't posted it but recently i experimented with defensive tactic and wingers with specific man marking duties. seems to really work well as much as real defensive unit where wingers drop back and defend the goal side instead of marking the touchline leaving the central area unattended as it happens on default. the drwaback is the setpieces. wingers will mark their men in those situtations as well. that creates lot of confusion but in open play it really looks like a proper defensive unit.

 

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5 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

@Svenci haven't posted it but recently i experimented with defensive tactic and wingers with specific man marking duties. seems to really work well as much as real defensive unit where wingers drop back and defend the goal side instead of marking the touchline leaving the central area unattended as it happens on default. the drwaback is the setpieces. wingers will mark their men in those situtations as well. that creates lot of confusion but in open play it really looks like a proper defensive unit.

 

Is that the case even if you give them a specific instruction on the set-piece screen, i.e rather than just have them as "go-back" or "mark tall player" you put them on the post or on the edge of the area etc? Or do the opposition instructions over-rule those instructions too?

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48 minutes ago, Craigus89 said:

Is that the case even if you give them a specific instruction on the set-piece screen, i.e rather than just have them as "go-back" or "mark tall player" you put them on the post or on the edge of the area etc? Or do the opposition instructions over-rule those instructions too?

can't tell really. I never alternate te default set pieces instructions. however, the problem arises when the set piece has been cleared. at that instance the wingers rush towards the player they are instructed to man mark even if it means moving towards zone of the pitch that doesn't make any danger to my goal leaving the zone that actually is dangerous unattained. 

seems like the game doesn't really have the right sense when to engage the man marking and when not to.

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14 hours ago, Govnar1 said:

It's far too easy to crowd midfield and dominate possession against much stronger opposition. Passing ball trough traffic in packed central areas is also far too easy even for technically deficient players.  

Absolutely.

There's a guy in the forums getting great results with a tactic that has 2 regular CBs, 1 libero, 2 inverted wingbacks, 2 central midfielders and 3 AMCs, strikerless. So in possession I presume the formation becomes 1 keeper 2 CBs and 8 midfielders.

That works spectacularly well. Fair play to the guy whose career is highly entertaining and I don't think he's trying to cheat the game or anything, but in real life you'd be congesting your team to death in the middle of the park. In real life there's diminishing returns, having any extra midfielders over 3 or 4 of them becomes a little pointless as the space to pick them out is limited and you need great composure, technical ability, vision to see and use these extra passing options in limited time in congested areas. However in FM it appears any extra midfielder is an automatic extra passing option that any other player will have the composure and clarity of mind to find, regardless of his ability. The opposition is also too easily baited into pressuring these players poorly and leaving gaps behind which then creates the goals (although, to be fair, this is FAR less pronounced when the opposition plays on more cautious mentalities).

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I've found the same in my save.

I couldn't get my tactic to work successfully, so I've gone to a simple 4-1-4-1 with a normal gk, two fb-s, two cb-s, two wm-s, two cm-a and a df.

Basically all that happens is we dominate possession against every team, >65-70%, and my 4 midfielders pass the ball around on the edge of the opponents box repeatedly and for long periods of time, mostly either with their back to goal or facing sideways, until eventually one of the midfielders is facing the goal, and plays a through ball to either the striker or a wm who shoots.

It's incredibly dull to watch, but we've had 2 back to back promotions and are now 3rd in the Championship. Not ready to go up by a long way so I'm tempted to revert back to my old tactic and then switch back to this successful one next season.

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18 minutes ago, HemHat said:

I've found the same in my save.

I couldn't get my tactic to work successfully, so I've gone to a simple 4-1-4-1 with a normal gk, two fb-s, two cb-s, two wm-s, two cm-a and a df.

Basically all that happens is we dominate possession against every team, >65-70%, and my 4 midfielders pass the ball around on the edge of the opponents box repeatedly and for long periods of time, mostly either with their back to goal or facing sideways, until eventually one of the midfielders is facing the goal, and plays a through ball to either the striker or a wm who shoots.

It's incredibly dull to watch, but we've had 2 back to back promotions and are now 3rd in the Championship. Not ready to go up by a long way so I'm tempted to revert back to my old tactic and then switch back to this successful one next season.

I played a 4-1-4-1 variant (assymetric with the ML pushed up to AML as inside forward) in my previous career, and my experience was somewhat similar that it could be a little dull, but possession can be fun too. Currently I'm switching between a 3-4-1-2, a 3-3-2-2 and a 4-3-1-2 and this set of tactics is highly entertaining. All of these variations have "only" 3 or 4 midfielders, but with the 2 strikers on top of it there's very much a central overload.

To clarify, I do think the inbalance in the match engine isn't absurdly extreme (it's certainly not to the level of certain exploits in past FMs), and I would like a central overload to remain effective in certain circumstances. In fact pass and move is pretty much my favourite type of football. However I still think something's wrong here and it can be a little easy, not correlated enough to the player's skills.

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53 minutes ago, noikeee said:

However I still think something's wrong here and it can be a little easy, not correlated enough to the player's skills.

if you are wondering what is wrong take a look at opposition wide players and the way they defend. they will often chose to close the wide area instead of staying inside and covering the center of the pitch. this way two central midfielders have four opposition players to mark. depending on ai setup and way they play this can be more or less visible. however, the positioning of two wide players creates the space in the central area.

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@MBarbaric Interesting, who do you let the wide players mark then? Somebody coming inside? Because specific man marking causes them to follow whoever they are supposed to mark?

 

2 hours ago, noikeee said:

To clarify, I do think the inbalance in the match engine isn't absurdly extreme (it's certainly not to the level of certain exploits in past FMs)

Well it's not the oldschool "Diablo". :D This was so effective that even if your side was completely outplayed, every time you managed to get forward was a big chance and likely a goal. Draw that arrow from any AMC forward, he would arrive in the box not getting marked proper. It's always the same principles though. Players gifted space/not getting pushed/not marked that would see them thrive beyond any of their ability/motivation/match focus/anything. The "crossing" issue of previous likewise was at the core in parts due to runs of forward bombing backs not getting tracked proper. Now it's happened to central areas some, which in the ME too is the shortest distance to goal. Plus with several players not getting pushed if they outnumber the opposition centrally, keeping the ball is easy doing. It may be not quite diablo, but it can be pretty effective if you would focus on it, and creative parts of the comm naturally would have found ways, bet it for attacking:

FCl1.png

 

Or defending -- remember that AI sides even from divisions below can happily keep possession if they outnumber in the middle of the park. Their typically cautious mentalities would highlight this, leading to weird AI vs AI matches as well. So, as a creative human player, clocking Barcelona down to less than ten shots plus barely getting the ball back in their own backyard? Not a problem, if only you want to.

Untitled.jpg.b0cbeaed7079b89fea63ab6b393

It's still hideous/misleading looking solely at the stats and gauging if a side was at all performing, in particular as the shot categories don't tell much. Because when AI sit deep and pack the middle targeted, this can happen too. The only stats clue as usual is in the corner counts, which is double to triple the amounts any top team in football has despite dominating play -- and at a corner "Won" effectively every 3rd to 4th minute the ball is actually in play, and that's just the corners, that's arguably a slightly different sports here getting played to begin with. :D

dominationnogoals.jpg.572b922604179505af

Agree, it's only a "engine breaker" if you want it to be, though it impacts the world sim (AI vs AI) due to AI formations playing into this. The solution is likely better team defending, which is likely hard to code. Just hope there won't be a "workaround", such as players getting coded to prefer forward balls over back and sideways passes for quicker natural turnovers of the ball in between both sides (in particular on more cautious mentalities highlighting this). That would be a huge loss in scope of football possible and usually the game is pretty "British" as is imo... :)

Edited by Svenc

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3 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

61 shots... 20 on target, 19 off target... the other 22?

Blocked, most likely.

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Blocked? Would love to see the detailed stats for that game, was one of the instructions "shoot on sight" by any chance?!

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4 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Blocked? Would love to see the detailed stats for that game, was one of the instructions "shoot on sight" by any chance?!

the last piece of commentary is telling "Melegnoni tries his luck!" I'd be interested to see the tactic too ... I get what Svenc says that the stats are misleading and possession/shots are no guide to win/lose ... but defensively kept the AI to 0 shots and 0 corners ... and interestingly the pass count 621 isn't ridiculous.... that's roughly what I get playing a 4231 attacking ... so doesn't seem too exploitative like just passing ball around at the back against a contain team.

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2 minutes ago, m_fenton said:

Blocked? Would love to see the detailed stats for that game, was one of the instructions "shoot on sight" by any chance?!

Detailed stats and FM don't go awash together. :D The instruction was "pack the centre, go narrow and peg them back all match so that against AI packing the middle dropping off every doofus defender gets a foot into every 2nd attack easily, deflecting, tackling, blocking and fouling for set pieces galore (and the inevitably shots that aren't converted that regularly or blocked outright -- if they would Stoke a few seasons back may have won the EPL rather than sneaking up a couple additionally points). The pro terminus ever since when you rely so much on those to open the scoring so that the AI MAY have mercy and push up is "getting Gazhammered" -- the old folk around here may understand it better. Don't have a vid, but kinda like this, it always is.

 

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In "Analysis" you should be able to see a diagram of where the 61 shots were taken from (broken down into "on target", "off target", "blocked" etc, which would certainly be worth seeing.

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the more I look the less I understand the mechanics of that game. Is there a PKM Svenc? the tackles won by Chievo is fairly high % but not ridiculous in number... so there must have been huge passages of Milan players just standing still on the ball ... not passing, not being tackled ..then shoot and miss or win a corner.. but the Chievo side never countering after 61 restarts with possession? And winning 31 tackles ... I don't envisage what happened at all in that game.

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2 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

the more I look the less I understand the mechanics of that game. Is there a PKM Svenc? the tackles won by Chievo is fairly high % but not ridiculous in number... so there must have been huge passages of Milan players just standing still on the ball ... not passing, not being tackled ..then shoot and miss or win a corner.. but the Chievo side never countering after 61 restarts with possession? And winning 31 tackles ... I don't envisage what happened at all in that game.


Sadly no as this wasn't from my save. But I know these kind of matches from any previous version -- if wwfan were still around, he would have gotten my slightly reminder in the above. What's happening in those is always the same, the shots from within the box would pretty much 99% look like in the above vid. Due to play being kept central, it's easier to keep possession high, which some have been doing all along (in this version, this would fuel into an exploit of kinds as central areas can be easily overloaded, so is fairly popular with downloads, but can come unstuck against certain AI tactics/Formation packing that middle). However, for teams sitting deep it makes it much easier to defend. The above kind of attempts still go off, plus masses of blocked shots, which creates the illusion of "dominating", when it isn't that much. In other words, what the game has been missing is a shot breakdown of a very simple but telling kind: counter/open play/free kick/corner/throw-in/penalty, etc. 50/60 shot matches in particular with exploits are nothing new off FM. When they didn't return with goals, this was never down to those being masses of good shots (see above) and always the same kind of type in more previous years. Long shots are obvious, the rest not so much.

As for the "comparably" low number of tackles made (18 fouls though), this is where FM 2017 kicks in and what Govnar and Noikee were talking about. If a side is outnumbered in the middle of the park, players won't have much opportunity to tackle until the ball approaches the area as they chase the ball around the park. There would be always somebody unmarked to recycle that ball easily. noikee was talking about 3 AMC strikerless popular with players. Oft that's paired with 2CMs or DMs, for 5 players packing the pitch. The below is "but" a rather usual 4-2-3-1 (1 DM, 2 CM = 3 central players) against a 4-4-2 (2 CM). And it's also AI vs AI. It's also Millwall (League 1) vs. West Brom (EPL). And whilst West Brom may have rested a few starters, they still would have a hard time chasing that ball around. Imagine what would of happen in a 5 vs 2 or 3 advantage. At least up to the goal, there wouldn't be that much opportunity to tackle. It also explains those easily extremely highish possession numbers, and pass completion rates above 90%. :)

 

Edited by Svenc

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it is really horrible to look at all these videos above... those wide players are keeping punching me in the eye... 

I recently came across similar thing against AI when (paradoxically) they were left with 10 men. They changed formation to 4-4-1 (with narrow diamond) and completely dominated possession. sad thing is that while human player can do something about these things, AI is helpless. 

The whole problem is even more exaggerated if those two poor central midfielders have high closing down. Then thy never settle in defensive shape waiting for opposition to come to them but keep chasing the ball like rondo exercise.

#MAKEWINGERSDEFENDNOWSI

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I'd still expect more than 621 passes if that is what Milan did to Chievo in the previous screen shot.

Something you guys have touched on here though is that it doesn't matter if you have bad players... if you overload the middle you still keep possession...

this is somewhat affecting my joy of FM now... I've done a lot of saves and never really getting my teeth into them. Did a PSG one just to assemble a dream team and win everything... which I've done... but I've found its purely the tactic winning me games... I can field the u19s and win in my 4123 ... if I then put all my best players out but go to a 4231 or 442 etc I can lose.

I preferred it more player based (where you still needed a solid tactic) ... i.e. sign a mediocre striker and he scores 10, sign a good one and he gets 20-30 ...sign a worldy and they can get 30+

 

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On ‎11‎/‎04‎/‎2017 at 12:15, Svenc said:

 



Untitled.jpg.b0cbeaed7079b89fea63ab6b393



 

That looks familiar!!!  Seem to remember I played 4141 in that when the wide midfielders actually did something!!  :)

Edited by Sussex Hammer

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There are many benefits of packing the midfield in FM17. For instance GK without specific distribution instructions will choose the long kick 95 percent of the time in FM17 and then all those extra midfielders translate in lot of extra possessions.

 

Edited by Govnar1

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18 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

61 shots... 20 on target, 19 off target... the other 22?

Have ye no' heard ae' the Lisbon Lions n the time they ripped Inter Milan's famous cattenaccio system apart? They had about 300 shots at goal

Edited by OhHoopedOne

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4 hours ago, OhHoopedOne said:

Have ye no' heard ae' the Lisbon Lions n the time they ripped Inter Milan's famous cattenaccio system apart? They had about 300 shots at goal

Are there any stats for that available? I think back then it was only the likes of Charles Rep collecting numbers. Didn't work out so well for some of the guys following his... :Dhttps://fivethirtyeight.com/features/how-one-mans-bad-math-helped-ruin-decades-of-english-soccer/

What I'd personally like SI to research on / consider:

- Check how/why it's easy to keep decent possession simply by keeping things narrow / flooding the centre. Nothing new as of FM2017, a long-term weakness imo, though the reworked defensive positioning isolating central midfielders a tad naturally highlights this.

- Reconsider defensive shapes making this possible in parts. This isn't simply about the wide guys. On FM 2015 you briefly could tell a forward to track back always all the way to your own box. Ever since the "default" defensive position of forwards is the half way line, which they will retreat into even if they opt to track some back briefly. Central areas can only be easily flooded when there isn't overly huge support from guys out wide and in front of them. Forwards in football can be the first line of defense. On FM, in very limited ways. Seems hard to code naturally, as that would require teams defending as units / shifting to where the threat is.

- Checking / providing the numbers of set piece attempts in-game. This isn't purely about experimental human player tactics going against any football common sense reporting back with funny numbers. It's happening in AI matches too to lesser extents. In FM it is very rare if possible at all that a "statistically" dominating side actually has up to 80%/90% of their attempts from open play. https://www.whoscored.com/Matches/1091035/MatchReport/Germany-Bundesliga-2016-2017-Bayern-Munich-Augsburg In football that happens all the time. This suggests that from open play, things are defended overly(?)/pretty efficiently. It's what happens after that defending that may be an issue. Furthermore, whilst only a fraction of set pieces result in goals, this goes one step further, as only a fraction of them typically at all result in a "shot" in football. On FM this seems higher in the latter case, fueling also individually matches where the rigidly defensive AI teams with both backs plus 1/2 mids on defend duty never creates zilch from play, but scores with the first/second set piece. That doesn't actually happen often as most set pieces are defended.. But it sticks in the memory when it happens.

- Connected to that, the extreme AI tactics need to be approached as extremes. In a competitive match it is uncommon to never the case that wide defenders never to rarely at all push up, with up to 5 defenders sitting behind the ball for almost the entire match. On FM that too still happens quite regularly, fueling one-sided matches, statistically. It's naturally a part of what makes such sides a bit harder to break down. If nobody pushes up, nobody is ever caught out of possession. The extremes are fine. It seems AI approach matches too much only in those extremes, as if in tendency only ever thinking in defend/attack.

- Make assistants being able to point out if there isn't an opening created from play. Surely mostly not a good sign. The nearest approaching it is the ass man encouraging to focus on set piece preparation, as "we'd average like 15 corners a match" (as if that would be a good sign), benchmark: top teams in real football average no more than 6 to 7 despite parking in the opposition half!

- Try to assess whether the shot definitions are in line with Opta et all in general. It's easy to get loads of shots. If you ever drop deep yourself to spoil, you will see your opposition oft getting them by default. Quality attempts is an altogether different matter.Whilst this is a bit extreme naturally, that still illustrates this:

This is AI, and it's just not realistic how matches are still approached outside maybe of terrible mismatches (Gibralatar coming to Wembley and praying for the best from kick-off).

 

Gors31M.jpg

 

Edited by Svenc

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2 minutes ago, Svenc said:

Are there any stats for that available? I think back then it was only the likes of Charles Rep collecting numbers. Didn't work out so well for some of the guys following his... :Dhttps://fivethirtyeight.com/featureshow-one-mans-bad-math-helped-ruin-decades-of-englifeatureshhow-one-mans-bad-math-helped-d-ruin-decades-of-englifeatureshhow-one-mans-bad-math-helped

Don't need stats for the Celtic game as the game is easily available on DVD therefore I can just watch it. Also Charles Rep and his long ball tactics had nothing to do with Scottish football. 

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This thread is for feedback on the FM 17 game and not for discussion about specific real life games- please keep on topic.

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On 09/04/2017 at 04:51, mrrobot said:

Would love a 17.3.2 patch that doesn't disable the possibility to add your own manager picture.

Would love a further patch to address some of the silly bugs in the ME (which I have logged)

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On 11/04/2017 at 10:15, noikeee said:

Absolutely.

There's a guy in the forums getting great results with a tactic that has 2 regular CBs, 1 libero, 2 inverted wingbacks, 2 central midfielders and 3 AMCs, strikerless. So in possession I presume the formation becomes 1 keeper 2 CBs and 8 midfielders.

That works spectacularly well. Fair play to the guy whose career is highly entertaining and I don't think he's trying to cheat the game or anything, but in real life you'd be congesting your team to death in the middle of the park. In real life there's diminishing returns, having any extra midfielders over 3 or 4 of them becomes a little pointless as the space to pick them out is limited and you need great composure, technical ability, vision to see and use these extra passing options in limited time in congested areas. However in FM it appears any extra midfielder is an automatic extra passing option that any other player will have the composure and clarity of mind to find, regardless of his ability. The opposition is also too easily baited into pressuring these players poorly and leaving gaps behind which then creates the goals (although, to be fair, this is FAR less pronounced when the opposition plays on more cautious mentalities).

Which career is this please? Do you have a link?

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39 minutes ago, HaroldHammond said:

Which career is this please? Do you have a link?

Sure.

The tactic is intriguing, the results are great, the banter even better. :D

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8 hours ago, noikeee said:

Sure.

The tactic is intriguing, the results are great, the banter even better. :D


Nice write-up too! Now if the AI managers were doing as SI promote, they'd just copy this (as argued, pack the middle, and it all fizzles out a bit). Naturally, that's precisely not what tactics in football are about. Then it truly becomes a piece of rock, paper, scissors (to an extent) where there is something that sees players constantly in space (regardless of their ability), and a hard counter to it all that makes it stop. :D

0a62d08b9b14b381f5bae0e887fa4177.jpg

http://thesetpieces.com/gaming/get-better-fm17-someone-knows/


I think the 3 AMC strikerless also just additionally drags CBs all out of shape. There is just one that needs to push up and the d-line is no more, which would happen every time the guys in front of them are overloaded. An immediate protection of 2DM in front of them plays out a bit differently. Something like that was also reported in the bugs forum already by someone. SI may have an interest in reviewing those, as results, or rather losses for such players can appear quite random. So you have a huge run including 6-0s in sequence against the top contenders, and then against the team sitting at the bottom packing a punch it goes nowhere. It's when that "one-trick-pony" fails and the thing that is behind all that bad theory going everywhere, including affiliate fan sites. "FM didn't want me to win this." "Scripted". "Cheating AI". "Rubber band". Permaban everybody going that route for life, they are distracting from the truly issues. :brock:

Edited by Svenc

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I've felt for a while that counter-attacking is a little overpowered, and I feel like I can finally put my finger on why.  The defensive players react unrealistically slowly.  It's like they don't notice the counter is on until several seconds in, at which point they say "oh boy I better get back on defense" when it's far too late.  It's especially noticeable on corners because of how many players are pushed forward.  The clearance comes to a player outside the box who launches a counter attack but all the guys who were attacking the corner stay in the box until the counter-attacking player has gotten a few dribbles in and is halfway down the pitch.  This is maddening.  Surely someone else has noticed this?

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Finishing also seems exceedingly streaky.  This one might be my imagination because it is anecdotal, but I seem to vacillate wildly between scoring 5-6 goals per match, and having my players fluff every shot terribly and finishing with 0 goals or maybe 1 if I get lucky with some defensive mistake.  I'm at the point where I'm winning the goal differential each season but I still can't win the league because my blowout wins are mixed in with lots of 1-0 losses and 1-1 draws.

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Ugh, I'm just getting fed up with this game.  Every season is the same.  I've built the team into a powerhouse full of elite players but it doesn't matter, there is absolute zero consistency.  We end up in a morale feedback loop and lose 1-0 to scads of awful teams.  Then eventually morale improves and we come on strong at the end of the season, but it doesn't matter because we've dropped so many points.  I'm now 4-1-4 in the league with a +8 GD.  How is that even possible?  I get so many games like this:

5 CCCs, 5 HCs, 1 goal

2 CCCs, 4 HCs, 0 goals

And so on.  These endless goal droughts are killing me and it's not fun.  It is making the game a slog.

Edited by jujigatame

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3 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

Ugh, I'm just getting fed up with this game.  Every season is the same.  I've built the team into a powerhouse full of elite players but it doesn't matter, there is absolute zero consistency.  We end up in a morale feedback loop and lose 1-0 to scads of awful teams.  Then eventually morale improves and we come on strong at the end of the season, but it doesn't matter because we've dropped so many points.  I'm now 4-1-4 in the league with a +8 GD.  How is that even possible?  I get so many games like this:

5 CCCs, 5 HCs, 1 goal

2 CCCs, 4 HCs, 0 goals

And so on.  These endless goal droughts are killing me and it's not fun.  It is making the game a slog.

Maybe spend some time in the tactics section, get some advice on why you end up in the same cycle 

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3 hours ago, jujigatame said:

I've felt for a while that counter-attacking is a little overpowered, and I feel like I can finally put my finger on why.  The defensive players react unrealistically slowly.  It's like they don't notice the counter is on until several seconds in, at which point they say "oh boy I better get back on defense" when it's far too late.  It's especially noticeable on corners because of how many players are pushed forward.  The clearance comes to a player outside the box who launches a counter attack but all the guys who were attacking the corner stay in the box until the counter-attacking player has gotten a few dribbles in and is halfway down the pitch.  This is maddening.  Surely someone else has noticed this?

this is absolutely true. i have set pieces on default and it happens to a point where i look forward to a corner being awarded to the opposition. the possibility of my counterattack outweights the probability of them scoring from corner. 

 

3 hours ago, jujigatame said:

Finishing also seems exceedingly streaky.  This one might be my imagination because it is anecdotal, but I seem to vacillate wildly between scoring 5-6 goals per match, and having my players fluff every shot terribly and finishing with 0 goals or maybe 1 if I get lucky with some defensive mistake.  I'm at the point where I'm winning the goal differential each season but I still can't win the league because my blowout wins are mixed in with lots of 1-0 losses and 1-1 draws.

i feel like we have been playing the same save :D however, there is some kind of confidence that each player in the squad has. once he is low on it and there is pressure to win the game, those players miss chance after chance making them more nervous and so on. the proces that happens in real life but i feel like it is a bit exaggerated in the game. 

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46 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Maybe spend some time in the tactics section, get some advice on why you end up in the same cycle 

I have put in my time on the tactics forum for years.  I do not believe this is a tactical issue.  I believe it is a morale/motivation/confidence issue.

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26 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

this is absolutely true. i have set pieces on default and it happens to a point where i look forward to a corner being awarded to the opposition. the possibility of my counterattack outweights the probability of them scoring from corner. 

 

i feel like we have been playing the same save :D however, there is some kind of confidence that each player in the squad has. once he is low on it and there is pressure to win the game, those players miss chance after chance making them more nervous and so on. the proces that happens in real life but i feel like it is a bit exaggerated in the game. 

That's the problem.  The concepts of pressure and confidence seem to have outsized effects on strikers in particular but there's very little feedback or a clear way to fix the problem.

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9 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

That's the problem.  The concepts of pressure and confidence seem to have outsized effects on strikers in particular but there's very little feedback or a clear way to fix the problem.

They really don't have big effects. You've had it in your head for years that this isothermal case, despite it not actually being accurate since a very early release of Fm12, and limited to that release. 

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18 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

I have put in my time on the tactics forum for years.  I do not believe this is a tactical issue.  I believe it is a morale/motivation/confidence issue.

I know already that confidence doesn't have anywhere near the large effect you think it does. You say you have put your time in, yet you have serious problem with streaks time and time again, which means you're either prone to setting up one dimensional focused tactics which stand or fall on one forward (looks at Man United), or you're struggling with the relative basics of keeping the squad focused, or even a combination of the two. Lots of questions to be answered. Your choice in the end

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31 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

They really don't have big effects. You've had it in your head for years that this isothermal case, despite it not actually being accurate since a very early release of Fm12, and limited to that release. 

You keep saying this but how do you know it is true?  Do you know how exactly morale and motivation affect attributes?  Perhaps a single player's morale doesn't have much of an affect on team performance, but morale tends to move in lockstep among all players.  People often underestimate the effect of lots of small changes can have on the probability of a given result.  Consider all the things that have to go right in order to score a goal.

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19 minutes ago, jujigatame said:

You keep saying this but how do you know it is true?  Do you know how exactly morale and motivation affect attributes?  Perhaps a single player's morale doesn't have much of an affect on team performance, but morale tends to move in lockstep among all players.  People often underestimate the effect of lots of small changes can have on the probability of a given result.  Consider all the things that have to go right in order to score a goal.

Morale doesn't move in lock step. There are so many factors at the play that the impact of morale is actually low. Even at its greatest impact, which are team talks at the beginning and half time, the  impacts are neither overwhelming or permanent. Neil Brock has spoken about this very topic before. You mention all things needed to score a goal, yet you've completely tunnelled into one small aspect

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The game may actually be too streaky! The question is always, why does it happen to your team then, but not the opponent. One-off matches in which forwards don't hit a cow's arse? Possible. Can also a feel streaky. Continued issues? Impossible without own contribution. And I'm saying that as somebody who currently also goes through a bit of a rough patch in some matches I haven't had in seasons. My suspicious is that it is due me compressing the space too much in parts, but I haven't yet had the time to analyze that further. I.e. playing a very aggressive narrow style, which usually isn't my wont. Please don't go by Half Chances and CCCs. They are borked still, there's multiple threads in the bugs forum about it, and long-term, the CCC conversion isn't much higher than for SOT (and shouldn't be). Anybody arguing by those shows that he hasn't been much around the good advice usually imo, since there is like zero decent players who argue to go by this (I know quite a few who have argued for them to be taken out for years, I'm strongly for it for a host of reasons). That aforementioned shot breakdown would be tons more useful and telling. Fairly easy to rack up attempts like crazy, which in parts may be a stats, but no doubt also is an ME issue, the quality is another matter.

Even if the game were accurate on this and that you could (man-)manage this some further, I'd expect this to be quite some streaky if this is to be a sim. This is because outside of tap-ins and penalties and the like, the keeper should pretty much always edge this (i.e. shots that see a conversion chance above 50% should be very rare... and one one ones aren't converted above 1 in 3 to 1 in 5 rates in general. Defending is easier than attacking, which is one of the reasons what makes football that unpredictable to begin with -- not the most ideal sports perhaps for a management sim, let alone your blood pressure, but so it is). I view each shot as a dice roll with weighted dice (general type of chance the biggest factor). As most of that should be favored for the defense, that is what can and should of happen. I have never had general long-term issues with that though, and the stats in the game in generally back that up. I don't for a second believe the game to be fully accurate here (it's a computer code, and one that models defending differently to a lot in football for a start, see above), which is why individual uploads are always worthwhile, but I know that the teams I compete against are all affected as well, as their matches go through the exact same thing. Some AI is actually still that borked that they need 20 attempts on average long-term to convert. :D It's mostly the aforementioned bottom type who sits half their team for prolonged minutes of a season behind the ball and thus never generates much from actually play, exaggerated by a couple of other AI tactical issues imo. Still, Arsense can't blame a bloody game. :D

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/15118/10189870/wasteful-arsenals-premier-league-title-hopes-hit-by-poor-finishing


Assessing counter attacks is an interesting topic though I'm personally also interested in. :) Traditionally, they've been rather toothless overall. That doesn't mean there may be no bigger issues though... Talking about defensive cover for attacking corners, the "good" thing is that the cover for AI on this is also fairly threadbare. It seems the default instruction is "stay back if needed" pretty much. That can be pretty easily overrun by now on the occasion depending on which. Not sure how about the reaction time, but I'd be interested in that as well as it is the play making the numbers, not the other way round. Anyhow, happy Easter to everyone including SI Towers Of London!

Edited by Svenc

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1 hour ago, Svenc said:

The game may actually be too streaky! The question is always, why does it happen to your team then, but not the opponent. One-off matches in which forwards don't hit a cow's arse? Possible. Can also a feel streaky. Continued issues? Impossible without own contribution. And I'm saying that as somebody who currently also goes through a bit of a rough patch in some matches I haven't had in seasons. My suspicious is that it is due me compressing the space too much in parts, but I haven't yet had the time to analyze that further. I.e. playing a very aggressive narrow style, which usually isn't my wont. Please don't go by Half Chances and CCCs. They are borked still, there's multiple threads in the bugs forum about it, and long-term, the CCC conversion isn't much higher than for SOT (and shouldn't be). Anybody arguing by those shows that he hasn't been much around the good advice usually imo, since there is like zero decent players who argue to go by this (I know quite a few who have argued for them to be taken out for years, I'm strongly for it for a host of reasons). That aforementioned shot breakdown would be tons more useful and telling. Fairly easy to rack up attempts like crazy, which in parts may be a stats, but no doubt also is an ME issue, the quality is another matter.

Even if the game were accurate on this and that you could (man-)manage this some further, I'd expect this to be quite some streaky if this is to be a sim. This is because outside of tap-ins and penalties and the like, the keeper should pretty much always edge this (i.e. shots that see a conversion chance above 50% should be very rare... and one one ones aren't converted above 1 in 3 to 1 in 5 rates in general. Defending is easier than attacking, which is one of the reasons what makes football that unpredictable to begin with -- not the most ideal sports perhaps for a management sim, let alone your blood pressure, but so it is). I view each shot as a dice roll with weighted dice (general type of chance the biggest factor). As most of that should be favored for the defense, that is what can and should of happen. I have never had general long-term issues with that though, and the stats in the game in generally back that up. I don't for a second believe the game to be fully accurate here (it's a computer code, and one that models defending differently to a lot in football for a start, see above), which is why individual uploads are always worthwhile, but I know that the teams I compete against are all affected as well, as their matches go through the exact same thing. Some AI is actually still that borked that they need 20 attempts on average long-term to convert. :D It's mostly the aforementioned bottom type who sits half their team for prolonged minutes of a season behind the ball and thus never generates much from actually play, exaggerated by a couple of other AI tactical issues imo. Still, Arsense can't blame a bloody game. :D

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/15118/10189870/wasteful-arsenals-premier-league-title-hopes-hit-by-poor-finishing


Assessing counter attacks is an interesting topic though I'm personally also interested in. :) Traditionally, they've been rather toothless overall. That doesn't mean there may be no bigger issues though... Talking about defensive cover for attacking corners, the "good" thing is that the cover for AI on this is also fairly threadbare. It seems the default instruction is "stay back if needed" pretty much. That can be pretty easily overrun by now on the occasion depending on which. Not sure how about the reaction time, but I'd be interested in that as well as it is the play making the numbers, not the other way round. Anyhow, happy Easter to everyone including SI Towers Of London!

Spot on, and count me among one who has argued for the CCC starts to be removed.

@jujigatame you've not posted in the tactics section for some time, would love to see you put up a detailed post of who you are, how you are playing, and how you interact with the squad between a run of games. You have streaky issues for 3 interations now, something you're doing needs a bit of tweaking

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4 hours ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Morale doesn't move in lock step. There are so many factors at the play that the impact of morale is actually low. Even at its greatest impact, which are team talks at the beginning and half time, the  impacts are neither overwhelming or permanent. Neil Brock has spoken about this very topic before. You mention all things needed to score a goal, yet you've completely tunnelled into one small aspect

Morale very much moves in lockstep.  I played a game recently where I went up 1-0.  Went to the tactics screen and all my players were varying shades of green.  Then my opponent scored an equalizer.  Went back to the tactics screen, around 8/11 players were yellow.  I've checked this many times and it generally operates the same way.

I understand what you're saying about tunnel vision, but surely you've noticed that sometimes your team simply plays "differently".  There are times when players are sprinting for loose balls, aggressively tackling and running with the ball, quickly pinging passes around, etc.  And there are times when they barely seem to be trying.  They jog, opponents beat them to the ball, the take wild awful shots, etc.  I don't know what to blame this on other than morale.

I generally let my assman do team talks.  He has high "motivation", shouldn't that be good enough?

Edited by jujigatame

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Just now, jujigatame said:

Morale very much moves in lockstep.  I played a game recently where I went up 1-0.  Went to the tactics screen and all my players were varying shades of green.  Then my opponent scored an equalizer.  Went back to the tactics screen, around 8/11 players were yellow.  I've checked this many times and it generally operates the same way.

I understand what you're saying about tunnel vision, but surely you've noticed that sometimes your team simply plays "differently".  There are times when players are sprinting for loose balls, aggressively tackling and running with the ball, etc.  And there are times when they barely seem to be trying.  They jog, opponents beat them to the ball, etc.  I don't know what to blame this on other than morale.

I generally let my assman do team talks.  He has high "motivation", shouldn't that be good enough?

 

3 hours ago, Svenc said:

The game may actually be too streaky! The question is always, why does it happen to your team then, but not the opponent. One-off matches in which forwards don't hit a cow's arse? Possible. Can also a feel streaky. Continued issues? Impossible without own contribution. And I'm saying that as somebody who currently also goes through a bit of a rough patch in some matches I haven't had in seasons. My suspicious is that it is due me compressing the space too much in parts, but I haven't yet had the time to analyze that further. I.e. playing a very aggressive narrow style, which usually isn't my wont. Please don't go by Half Chances and CCCs. They are borked still, there's multiple threads in the bugs forum about it, and long-term, the CCC conversion isn't much higher than for SOT (and shouldn't be). Anybody arguing by those shows that he hasn't been much around the good advice usually imo, since there is like zero decent players who argue to go by this (I know quite a few who have argued for them to be taken out for years, I'm strongly for it for a host of reasons). That aforementioned shot breakdown would be tons more useful and telling. Fairly easy to rack up attempts like crazy, which in parts may be a stats, but no doubt also is an ME issue, the quality is another matter.

Even if the game were accurate on this and that you could (man-)manage this some further, I'd expect this to be quite some streaky if this is to be a sim. This is because outside of tap-ins and penalties and the like, the keeper should pretty much always edge this (i.e. shots that see a conversion chance above 50% should be very rare... and one one ones aren't converted above 1 in 3 to 1 in 5 rates in general. Defending is easier than attacking, which is one of the reasons what makes football that unpredictable to begin with -- not the most ideal sports perhaps for a management sim, let alone your blood pressure, but so it is). I view each shot as a dice roll with weighted dice (general type of chance the biggest factor). As most of that should be favored for the defense, that is what can and should of happen. I have never had general long-term issues with that though, and the stats in the game in generally back that up. I don't for a second believe the game to be fully accurate here (it's a computer code, and one that models defending differently to a lot in football for a start, see above), which is why individual uploads are always worthwhile, but I know that the teams I compete against are all affected as well, as their matches go through the exact same thing. Some AI is actually still that borked that they need 20 attempts on average long-term to convert. :D It's mostly the aforementioned bottom type who sits half their team for prolonged minutes of a season behind the ball and thus never generates much from actually play, exaggerated by a couple of other AI tactical issues imo. Still, Arsense can't blame a bloody game. :D

http://www.skysports.com/football/news/15118/10189870/wasteful-arsenals-premier-league-title-hopes-hit-by-poor-finishing


Assessing counter attacks is an interesting topic though I'm personally also interested in. :) Traditionally, they've been rather toothless overall. That doesn't mean there may be no bigger issues though... Talking about defensive cover for attacking corners, the "good" thing is that the cover for AI on this is also fairly threadbare. It seems the default instruction is "stay back if needed" pretty much. That can be pretty easily overrun by now on the occasion depending on which. Not sure how about the reaction time, but I'd be interested in that as well as it is the play making the numbers, not the other way round. Anyhow, happy Easter to everyone including SI Towers Of London!

Actually, I wouldn't say it always happens to my team, not the opponent.  I'm sure the AI has similar issues.  I'm in something like 7th place as Leverkusen right now, but Bayern is actually BEHIND me, despite having a megasquad.  Yet I've seen this happen before, and somehow they always get it sorted out after 10-12 games and then go on a massive winning run and take the league.  So the AI has issues with streakiness too.

But my issue with streakiness is more of an in-game issue.  It's like there are 2 choices:

1) My strikers are "on form" and I score 4-5 goals.

2) My strikers are awful and maybe I get lucky with some set pieces or defensive mistakes.

I dunno, maybe you could argue that this is realistic.  But I do seem to fall into the same pattern every season.

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Just lost 4-1 against a newly promoted team.  Of course I had more chances and SOTs and so forth.  It seems like "Attacking" mentality basically means "lose faster".  I may try an experiment where I always keep mentality 2 notches below where I normally would.  The risky passing, wasteful shooting, and high defensive lines of the higher mentalities heavily outweigh any benefits.  Has anyone actually had success with tactics based around "attacking" mentality?

Edited by jujigatame

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4 hours ago, jujigatame said:

 

Actually, I wouldn't say it always happens to my team, not the opponent.  I'm sure the AI has similar issues.  I'm in something like 7th place as Leverkusen right now, but Bayern is actually BEHIND me, despite having a megasquad.  Yet I've seen this happen before, and somehow they always get it sorted out after 10-12 games and then go on a massive winning run and take the league.  So the AI has issues with streakiness too.

But my issue with streakiness is more of an in-game issue.  It's like there are 2 choices:

1) My strikers are "on form" and I score 4-5 goals.

2) My strikers are awful and maybe I get lucky with some set pieces or defensive mistakes.

I dunno, maybe you could argue that this is realistic.  But I do seem to fall into the same pattern every season.

What about the 5 teams in front of you?

Morale doesn't move in lockstep and you've focused so much on strikers morale, you've not even mentioned anything about your other goal threats or what you do to try and adapt. 

Then looking at your next post you veer from one idea to the other. For what it's worth I'm 28-5-0 in the league playing attack/control (counter comes in for away games against other heavy hitters)

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