Newgens making the game unplayable.

[noikeee]

5 minutes ago, herne79 said:

You retrain to improve their position familiarity - make them accomplished or natural - to avoid the penalty to their Decisions attribute.  Not ideal in the short term perhaps, but it doesn't tend to take long.

On my FM16 career I had a striker that took me 1 season and a half to get retrained to AML. By that time I was bored of managing Austria Wien and ready to move on to another club. The worst thing is with all that effort, by the end he still played like **** as AML. 

[eriktous]

45 minutes ago, noikeee said:

Why do the reseachers put so much effort in rating each and every player 1 to 20 in every position, if the game barely penalizes you for it?

To help the AI managed teams to line up somewhat similar to their real life counterparts. To prevent AI-Luis Enrique doesn't go and buy Coutinho to play him as right wing back.

[enigmatic]

2 hours ago, noikeee said:

It's not a feature. Whether regens aren't generated versatile enough at the beginning (which I believe is the real source of the problem), or not retrained enough by the AI, the end result is the same: less availability of versatile players compared to the original DB. This breaks immersion a bit. It's not the job of you, the human manager, to retrain every player of the DB. And when you go hire players, even with the intent of retraining them, it takes time to do so. Often months or even years.

It's not just annoying if you're an international manager, it's also annoying when you have systems built up around players who become more rare in the DB. Happened to me in FM16 and now in FM17 as well, to a lesser extent. I've now started from scratch, season 1, with a bunch of wingerless systems, now let's hope in 15 seasons time the DB doesn't run out of quality attacking wingbacks...

Having regens that typically have only learned to be natural/accomplished in 2-3 positions at the age of 17 is a feature. The AI not retraining many of them  is arguably a bug, though on the scale of FM bugs it's relatively less obvious and less significant compared with many other FM bugs and realism issues.

The lack of wingbacks seems to be more of a conspicuous issue (particularly with a small database in a country where few sides play them), but it's less that fullbacks are rarely capable of playing more than one position and more that they're generated frequently as DRL or DRC or even DRC/DM and very rarely as DWBR even if their attribute balance would suggest they'd be very comfortable as wing backs. And yeah, the AI does seem to like training and selecting its fullbacks to be cloggers rather than creators, which is probably a worse realism issue.

[Seb Wassell]

Hey all. Thanks for the input.

To follow up on my earlier post in this thread I would like to reiterate that this is one of those areas of the game that is constantly monitored and tweaked internally. I've read through everything here thus far and whilst I do not necessarily agree with all of it we will certainly be following up on the points raised, as we did last year.

What would be most helpful is specific issues being raised individually in the bugs forum, that way we can take your observations a step further and use the tools we have here to assess causes and what needs to be done. As ever it is worth noting that just because there appears to be a surplus or deficit of one type of player in your save does not mean it is a DB-wide or game-wide issue, we actually did some work behind the scenes this year on trying to bring a little more variety to the newgens in each save, so that you don't see the same gameworld over and over. Of course this should not be to the detriment of a realistic footballing world and as such examples of where this is lacking are very much welcome over in the bugs forum.

Cheers,
Seb.

[noikeee]

5 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Hey all. Thanks for the input.

To follow up on my earlier post in this thread I would like to reiterate that this is one of those areas of the game that is constantly monitored and tweaked internally. I've read through everything here thus far and whilst I do not necessarily agree with all of it we will certainly be following up on the points raised, as we did last year.

What would be most helpful is specific issues being raised individually in the bugs forum, that way we can take your observations a step further and use the tools we have here to assess causes and what needs to be done. As ever it is worth noting that just because there appears to be a surplus or deficit of one type of player in your save does not mean it is a DB-wide or game-wide issue, we actually did some work behind the scenes this year on trying to bring a little more variety to the newgens in each save, so that you don't see the same gameworld over and over. Of course this should not be to the detriment of a realistic footballing world and as such examples of where this is lacking are very much welcome over in the bugs forum.

Cheers,
Seb.

When I find the time I will, like I did last year. It's just that it takes time and patience to holiday a game way out into the future, then run several queries and compare statistics etc. Been enjoying too much, in my limited free time, actually playing the game instead. 

Sadly the impression I get is that the same issues I reported have remained from FM16. However, I do reserve the right to be proven wrong by the statistics, and appreciate that you guys have put some effort into it. Thanks.

[Seb Wassell]

13 hours ago, noikeee said:

When I find the time I will, like I did last year. It's just that it takes time and patience to holiday a game way out into the future, then run several queries and compare statistics etc. Been enjoying too much, in my limited free time, actually playing the game instead. 

Sadly the impression I get is that the same issues I reported have remained from FM16. However, I do reserve the right to be proven wrong by the statistics, and appreciate that you guys have put some effort into it. Thanks.

Thank you noikeee, your contributions are appreciated. Don't take time away from your enjoyment of the game to do this, only if you have an example readily available.

In a delicate area such as newgen generation it unfortunately isn't always possible to make sweeping changes, the knock-ons can be far too severe. We do our best to balance as safely as we are able, which usually means changes can take a bit longer than expected.

[Silver Twilight Sparkle]

4 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Thank you noikeee, your contributions are appreciated. Don't take time away from your enjoyment of the game to do this, only if you have an example readily available.

In a delicate area such as newgen generation it unfortunately isn't always possible to make sweeping changes, the knock-ons can be far too severe. We do our best to balance as safely as we are able, which usually means changes can take a bit longer than expected.

What about the newgen / regen faces? Will they be fixed for FM18?

[Seb Wassell]

Just now, Silver Twilight Sparkle said:

What about the newgen / regen faces? Will they be fixed for FM18?

The bugs forum would be your best bet for issues related to facegen.

[FootballTrainer]

One thing for me personally is the transition from real player pictures to computer generated ones. It would be easier for me as a gamer to have everyones faced portraited through computer technology skinned faces even from the start. In most leagues and not counting Englands top league here the players have real faces from the beginning when you start a game. The transition starts when the newgen and regen faces occur later on in the game. For me personally the transition from IRL footballers now to new generated ones would be easier if every face were skinned from the beginning like newgens. Of course as an option for every player though.

[enigmatic]

2 hours ago, FootballTrainer said:

One thing for me personally is the transition from real player pictures to computer generated ones. It would be easier for me as a gamer to have everyones faced portraited through computer technology skinned faces even from the start. In most leagues and not counting Englands top league here the players have real faces from the beginning when you start a game. The transition starts when the newgen and regen faces occur later on in the game. For me personally the transition from IRL footballers now to new generated ones would be easier if every face were skinned from the beginning like newgens. Of course as an option for every player though.

That's actually an interesting idea worth sticking on the ideas forum, especially given FM's face software is supposed to generate faces from photos now.

Would be even better if it's allowed to mass-import 3rd party facepacks through their facegen too.

 

(That said, I quite like [the option of] knowing if a player is real or not simply by looking at their face without having to mess around with the editor)

 

[RBKalle]

On 6/3/2017 at 13:29, enigmatic said:

the large proportion of newgens that have very high potentials, and the proportion whose very high potentials aren't matched by an at least halfway decent level of professionalism or ambition. I assume that's intended as a feature rather than a bug, and the same goes for players not being born ultra-versatile. It's only really annoying when you're an international manager and can't retrain players.

I've always assumed the low mental traits, the shocking technical flaws or the awkward attributes distribution on many newgens were a convenient way to circumvent the way too linear growth of players with high PA...

In my long-term saves I've only seen two type of high-potential players:

A) The "Luis Nazario Ronaldo", a newgen who starts with very balanced attributes for his position, a solid CA and enough PA to make him a starter for a top club at age 18 who'll develop into a beast very quickly.

B) The "Balotelli", a newgen with a couple of fatal flaws (technical, physical or mental) who'll NEVER fulfill his potential, but his high PPA will still lure clubs into signing him even when it'd be clear he won't ever reach that level.

As a slight variation of the B, there's the "who trained you at the academy?" player. Like the MC with 6 passing and 18 pace, who'd clearly make a decent wide player. Or the CB with 7 Positioning, or the striker who couldn't hit a barn door.

 

Come on, those are NOT features, mostly because, while a human manager can sort of work around those issues, or at least spot a "Balotelli" at first glance and avoid signing it, AI managers will fall for that every time, with obvious consequences on the long-term playability of the game.

Given that any balanced player WILL be spotted, signed and played by the AI, having a plethora of "imperfect" high-potential players is the only way to have a semblance of balance in the newgen-populated gameworld.

Otherwise we'd end up with too many Top Players. Unfortunately, the situation has been overmedicated, so now you either get 17yo worldbeaters who'll dominate the game for 15 years, or godawful players not even Sir Alex could turn into something useful.

As I've reported many times in the past, that mostly affect mid-table acts and the EL-level of football... Top clubs will have enough new Messis and Ronaldos, while your average "almost-top" players will not have suitable replacements 10 or 15 years into your save.

[Seb Wassell]

22 minutes ago, RBKalle said:

I've always assumed the low mental traits, the shocking technical flaws or the awkward attributes distribution on many newgens were a convenient way to circumvent the way too linear growth of players with high PA...

In my long-term saves I've only seen two type of high-potential players:

A) The "Luis Nazario Ronaldo", a newgen who starts with very balanced attributes for his position, a solid CA and enough PA to make him a starter for a top club at age 18 who'll develop into a beast very quickly.

B) The "Balotelli", a newgen with a couple of fatal flaws (technical, physical or mental) who'll NEVER fulfill his potential, but his high PPA will still lure clubs into signing him even when it'd be clear he won't ever reach that level.

As a slight variation of the B, there's the "who trained you at the academy?" player. Like the MC with 6 passing and 18 pace, who'd clearly make a decent wide player. Or the CB with 7 Positioning, or the striker who couldn't hit a barn door.

 

Come on, those are NOT features, mostly because, while a human manager can sort of work around those issues, or at least spot a "Balotelli" at first glance and avoid signing it, AI managers will fall for that every time, with obvious consequences on the long-term playability of the game.

Given that any balanced player WILL be spotted, signed and played by the AI, having a plethora of "imperfect" high-potential players is the only way to have a semblance of balance in the newgen-populated gameworld.

Otherwise we'd end up with too many Top Players. Unfortunately, the situation has been overmedicated, so now you either get 17yo worldbeaters who'll dominate the game for 15 years, or godawful players not even Sir Alex could turn into something useful.

As I've reported many times in the past, that mostly affect mid-table acts and the EL-level of football... Top clubs will have enough new Messis and Ronaldos, while your average "almost-top" players will not have suitable replacements 10 or 15 years into your save.

Hey RBKalle,

Appreciate your thoughts but I have to disagree that all future gameworlds are so binary and certainly that it is our intention to have them be that way.

The idea is to recreate the spread of the starting DB within a reasonable margin of variation. We don't want an unbalanced gameworld but nor do we want the starting DB exactly copied. This goes for both player ability levels and "types" of players.

If you have examples of these issues please do head over to our bugs forum - https://community.sigames.com/forum/518-other-gameplay-issues/ - and we can investigate from there.

Cheers,
Seb.

[aiyanah]

you should try developing your own newgens for the role

[MBarbaric]

3 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Hey RBKalle,

Appreciate your thoughts but I have to disagree that all future gameworlds are so binary and certainly that it is our intention to have them be that way.

The idea is to recreate the spread of the starting DB within a reasonable margin of variation. We don't want an unbalanced gameworld but nor do we want the starting DB exactly copied. This goes for both player ability levels and "types" of players.

If you have examples of these issues please do head over to our bugs forum - https://community.sigames.com/forum/518-other-gameplay-issues/ - and we can investigate from there.

Cheers,
Seb.

i wonder why wouldn't you want the starting database cloned? it surely represents the most diversive and life like database. so why would you want to alter that? if it is to provide different setup on each new game then i'd argue you already have different setup as you load different leagues.

to me it seems as it only creates unnecessary problems in long term saves with lack of certai type of players. Besides, if database would "clone" itself, everytime a player retires producing the same CA/PA/Position/mental_stats player he would certainly differ from the real life (to an extent) as he would have different playing time/club_training_conditions to always make the database slightly different.

I understand I have no idea how inner things work so I might be totally wrong with my above premise, but I really wonder what is the thinking behind not "cloning" the database.

[Cougar2010]

25 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

i wonder why wouldn't you want the starting database cloned? it surely represents the most diversive and life like database. so why would you want to alter that? if it is to provide different setup on each new game then i'd argue you already have different setup as you load different leagues.

to me it seems as it only creates unnecessary problems in long term saves with lack of certai type of players. Besides, if database would "clone" itself, everytime a player retires producing the same CA/PA/Position/mental_stats player he would certainly differ from the real life (to an extent) as he would have different playing time/club_training_conditions to always make the database slightly different.

I understand I have no idea how inner things work so I might be totally wrong with my above premise, but I really wonder what is the thinking behind not "cloning" the database.

Because a database of FM17 would look different to a database of say FM10 and both would look different to a database of around 2000.

IRL at any given time the mix of players is different to at any other time therefore aiming to clone a database would be wrong.  A RL current example could be the current shortage of out & out strikers in the top divisions but its flooded with Ribery/De Bruyne type attackers.

[MBarbaric]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

Because a database of FM17 would look different to a database of say FM10 and both would look different to a database of around 2000.

IRL at any given time the mix of players is different to at any other time therefore aiming to clone a database would be wrong.  A RL current example could be the current shortage of out & out strikers in the top divisions but its flooded with Ribery/De Bruyne type attackers.

I see where are you coming from but I disagree there's a shortage of out to out strikers... diego costa, ibrahimovic, kane, Vardy, benzema, luis suarez, bacca, ... they are all top out and out strikers in top divisions comparable to old fashioned 9. They might be used differently in their teams than gary lineker was, but they would certainly not perform any worst than shearer or any out and out striker.

however, even if you'd clone the database each "cloned" player would have different path than his real life counterpart making him different player. besides, we already have that as when you load the original database attribute distribution isn't always the same for current players. which makes me think why would they need to alter the database to a point it might unbalance the gameworld in a way there simply is a shortage of some kind of players compared to original database.

I dont think that is a "feature" to simulate development of football as AI managers would need to be advanced enough to produce different tactics for "new" type of players which obviously isn't the case.

[dieu]

23 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

I dont think that is a "feature" to simulate development of football as AI managers would need to be advanced enough to produce different tactics for "new" type of players which obviously isn't the case.

But the AI uses the "new" type of players. That's why they get developed and that's why there seems to be a shortage of decent inside forwards after a while. 

[enigmatic]

4 hours ago, RBKalle said:

I've always assumed the low mental traits, the shocking technical flaws or the awkward attributes distribution on many newgens were a convenient way to circumvent the way too linear growth of players with high PA...

In my long-term saves I've only seen two type of high-potential players:

A) The "Luis Nazario Ronaldo", a newgen who starts with very balanced attributes for his position, a solid CA and enough PA to make him a starter for a top club at age 18 who'll develop into a beast very quickly.

B) The "Balotelli", a newgen with a couple of fatal flaws (technical, physical or mental) who'll NEVER fulfill his potential, but his high PPA will still lure clubs into signing him even when it'd be clear he won't ever reach that level.

As a slight variation of the B, there's the "who trained you at the academy?" player. Like the MC with 6 passing and 18 pace, who'd clearly make a decent wide player. Or the CB with 7 Positioning, or the striker who couldn't hit a barn door.

 

Come on, those are NOT features, mostly because, while a human manager can sort of work around those issues, or at least spot a "Balotelli" at first glance and avoid signing it, AI managers will fall for that every time, with obvious consequences on the long-term playability of the game.

Given that any balanced player WILL be spotted, signed and played by the AI, having a plethora of "imperfect" high-potential players is the only way to have a semblance of balance in the newgen-populated gameworld.

Otherwise we'd end up with too many Top Players. Unfortunately, the situation has been overmedicated, so now you either get 17yo worldbeaters who'll dominate the game for 15 years, or godawful players not even Sir Alex could turn into something useful.

As I've reported many times in the past, that mostly affect mid-table acts and the EL-level of football... Top clubs will have enough new Messis and Ronaldos, while your average "almost-top" players will not have suitable replacements 10 or 15 years into your save.

I think you're right about newgens' higher potential and less-correlated-with-potential mental attributes being partly to make the development less linear. But having spent a long term save doing U21 international management, I'm pretty sure most Premier league prospects fall into the very non-linear development category (C): very high potential, reasonable starting attributes and just about good/ambitious enough to get quite good quite quickly but then incapable of continuing to improve without regular game time at a high enough level, and often destined to spend most of their career in the Championship. I'd say for the most part this is better for gameplay than a somewhat more realistic situation in which world class potential players are normally mentally more Ronaldo than Balotelli and so rare you might manage a top club for two decades without getting one, and players with first team potential are (i) also rare and (ii) usually professional/ambitious enough to get good enough to hit that potential whether you give them lots of game time and a tutor or not. It's also probably fair enough that the AI sometimes hoards these players or holds their development up by using them as backup (which actually happens plenty IRL, as well as being necessary to stop there being too many world class players the way the regens are set). I suspect the alternative (much more similar to existing database PA balance, higher average professionalism for higher PA players and development model less contingent on them playing enough) would be a much duller game, and probably skew the 2030 database even more in favour of the top clubs.

That apparently considered policy, and the presumably deliberate policy of not making 17 year olds experts in more than 4 positions is quite different from unlikely player-generation quirks (my favourite is a rare Either-footed striker with "Avoids Weaker Foot"!), apparent systematic biases towards speedy specialist CM/DMs and nobody knowing what a wingback is.

And like I said in the original post, the the AI not doing enough to fix quite reasonable starting flaws (particularly systematically not developing things like defenders' technique), rarely retraining positions and rarely training obvious things (like "develops weaker foot" on the many, many very one-footed high-potential players and "knocks ball past opponent" on speedy, technically-limited strikers/wingers) is quite different from teenage defenders quite reasonably starting out as pretty raw physical beasts that can't pass.

 And I also want it to remain the case that strikers who can't finish and defenders with no concentration still exist and get signed, because Jozy Altidore and Titus Bramble have had Premiership careers. If anything, I think finding newgen strikers that can beat a defender and finish (at least on their stronger foot) is a bit too easy.

[upthetoon]

20 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

IRL at any given time the mix of players is different to at any other time therefore aiming to clone a database would be wrong.  A RL current example could be the current shortage of out & out strikers in the top divisions but its flooded with Ribery/De Bruyne type attackers.

you must be only watching the premier league then...

[Seb Wassell]

18 hours ago, enigmatic said:

I think you're right about newgens' higher potential and less-correlated-with-potential mental attributes being partly to make the development less linear. But having spent a long term save doing U21 international management, I'm pretty sure most Premier league prospects fall into the very non-linear development category (C): very high potential, reasonable starting attributes and just about good/ambitious enough to get quite good quite quickly but then incapable of continuing to improve without regular game time at a high enough level, and often destined to spend most of their career in the Championship. I'd say for the most part this is better for gameplay than a somewhat more realistic situation in which world class potential players are normally mentally more Ronaldo than Balotelli and so rare you might manage a top club for two decades without getting one, and players with first team potential are (i) also rare and (ii) usually professional/ambitious enough to get good enough to hit that potential whether you give them lots of game time and a tutor or not. It's also probably fair enough that the AI sometimes hoards these players or holds their development up by using them as backup (which actually happens plenty IRL, as well as being necessary to stop there being too many world class players the way the regens are set). I suspect the alternative (much more similar to existing database PA balance, higher average professionalism for higher PA players and development model less contingent on them playing enough) would be a much duller game, and probably skew the 2030 database even more in favour of the top clubs.

Thanks for the thoughts enigmatic. Whilst we have indeed attempted to bring in more variation in newgen profiles, i.e. more Balotelli types, there will still be an overwhelming majority in favour of the Ronaldo type. Nine times out of ten a professional, ambitious, determined youngster beats an unprofessional, unambitious, undetermined youngster. When you take tutoring into account the gameworld is arguably often still overpopulated with "ideal" personalities compared to reality.
When I say more Balotellis I don't mean a larger finite number of unprofessional youngsters generated, I mean more of them "making it". Think Balotelli vs. Ravel Morrison. Whilst neither are the model footballer and neither have hit their potential the former has certainly seen more success.
We have not altered the number of youngsters generating with personality X, rather we have made some changes to the progression system which will see a more varied developmental curve. There will be months where an unprofessional youngster trains flawlessly and vice versa. Obviously this is weighted in favour of the more professional youngsters. 

18 hours ago, enigmatic said:

That apparently considered policy, and the presumably deliberate policy of not making 17 year olds experts in more than 4 positions is quite different from unlikely player-generation quirks (my favourite is a rare Either-footed striker with "Avoids Weaker Foot"!), apparent systematic biases towards speedy specialist CM/DMs and nobody knowing what a wingback is.

That weaker foot one sounds like a bug, if you have an example get it posted in our bugs section please.

18 hours ago, enigmatic said:

And like I said in the original post, the the AI not doing enough to fix quite reasonable starting flaws (particularly systematically not developing things like defenders' technique), rarely retraining positions and rarely training obvious things (like "develops weaker foot" on the many, many very one-footed high-potential players and "knocks ball past opponent" on speedy, technically-limited strikers/wingers) is quite different from teenage defenders quite reasonably starting out as pretty raw physical beasts that can't pass.

It would be worth raising anything obvious you've spotted here as a bug.
Regarding the weaker foot - players cannot be trained to have more than 10 in their weaker foot, so you do need to be "generated" (in reality, reach 15/16 years old) with a decent ability in your weaker foot to ever reach "either" status.
Regarding knocks ball past opponent - according to our data this one rises by 33% over the course of a soak, so if anything this is trained too much by the AI.

Cheers,
Seb.

[enigmatic]

10 hours ago, Seb Wassell said:

Thanks for the thoughts enigmatic. Whilst we have indeed attempted to bring in more variation in newgen profiles, i.e. more Balotelli types, there will still be an overwhelming majority in favour of the Ronaldo type. Nine times out of ten a professional, ambitious, determined youngster beats an unprofessional, unambitious, undetermined youngster. When you take tutoring into account the gameworld is arguably often still overpopulated with "ideal" personalities compared to reality.
When I say more Balotellis I don't mean a larger finite number of unprofessional youngsters generated, I mean more of them "making it". Think Balotelli vs. Ravel Morrison. Whilst neither are the model footballer and neither have hit their potential the former has certainly seen more success.
We have not altered the number of youngsters generating with personality X, rather we have made some changes to the progression system which will see a more varied developmental curve. There will be months where an unprofessional youngster trains flawlessly and vice versa. Obviously this is weighted in favour of the more professional youngsters. 

That weaker foot one sounds like a bug, if you have an example get it posted in our bugs section please.

It would be worth raising anything obvious you've spotted here as a bug.
Regarding the weaker foot - players cannot be trained to have more than 10 in their weaker foot, so you do need to be "generated" (in reality, reach 15/16 years old) with a decent ability in your weaker foot to ever reach "either" status.
Regarding knocks ball past opponent - according to our data this one rises by 33% over the course of a soak, so if anything this is trained too much by the AI.

Cheers,
Seb.

Hi Seb 

Thanks for the response. Can report the weaker foot guy as a bug if you think appropriate: I take it you probably won't need a save for that. Think he was generated with that attribute

Maybe I've just been unlucky with not seeing many players that I'd definitely train with "knocks ball past opponent" getting it. Or maybe the AI is focusing on the wrong ones...

But I'm pretty sure the AI very rarely uses "Develops Weaker Foot" - I've only ever see one player with it (as I understand it sticks around for several months whilst the player is training on it) and I've tended to have quite a few very one footed players with bags of potential in my U21 squads. I realise none of them are going to be great on their other foot (the one player it did train went from Very Weak to Weak, which is what I'd expect). Definitely worth checking in your soak, because it probably should be used more. Pretty sure elite players who are newgens are more likely to be very one footed that very top level players now (especially ones that play centrally)

[Rashidi]

On 02/03/2017 at 12:55, Thorne said:

I'm not sure that's a good idea, he cannot play AML at all! I used him twice as a sub there and he looked confused. I'm waiting for him to learn at least a little before I will consider starting him (his current Inside Forward rating is 4/10).

 

I have an MC who has good acceleration, crossing and passing and I play his as a winger, I have a fullback I play as a winger, and my strikers are always playing roles they aren't accomplished in. It's not an issue. Familiarity plays a role but not the way you suggest. You make it seem like it's pivotal when it's not. 

Perhaps there are other reasons why they Re playing badly for you

[Thorne]

On 3/10/2017 at 09:42, Rashidi said:

I have an MC who has good acceleration, crossing and passing and I play his as a winger, I have a fullback I play as a winger, and my strikers are always playing roles they aren't accomplished in. It's not an issue. Familiarity plays a role but not the way you suggest. You make it seem like it's pivotal when it's not. 

Perhaps there are other reasons why they Re playing badly for you

I'm not the one suggesting it, the game is. It gives a player a poor rating for that role, same as if you were playing a youngster with poor attributes. Also implying that it's not an issue is false, I've seen players make some pretty bad decisions when being played out of position, sometimes costing me the game. 

Either way, this topic is not about playing players out of position but a lack of Inside Forwards as compared to the original database. I know that I can retrain players or even play them OOP, it's just not something I should be forced to do constantly because of it.

I've been pretty busy lately but the bug report will be finished tomorrow and from what I've researched so far the people saying there isn't a problem will be embarrassed. 

 

[samuelawachie]

I agree that at least, there are much fewer Inside Forwards in the game as you progress through the seasons relative to the start. But on FM 14, on my last youth intake about 2027 or so (FCBarcelona), we had two inside forwards. I was pleasantly surprised! SO maybe there's hope for the game yet!!(tongue-in-cheek)

[Guest]

I have now had two youth intakes in my game, and obviously there's no way I can make any conclusions, but here's a comment anyway: coaching Liverpool, I find it baffling to see the newgens' Natural Fitness attributes. I currently have three apparently very talented youth prospects - my coaches are basically saying that all of them are going to beat my current best players in their positions. And indeed, they do look like wonderful up-and-coming stars. Except for one thing.

 

Their Natural Fitness attributes: 5, 6 and 6.

 

Judging by this alone, I'm guessing that it's going to be difficult to make anything out of any of them.

[Trugdish]

All the issues described here have been known for a few years now, also live in hope that the balance will be fixed

[aderow]

18 hours ago, Thorne said:

I'm not the one suggesting it, the game is. It gives a player a poor rating for that role, same as if you were playing a youngster with poor attributes. Also implying that it's not an issue is false, I've seen players make some pretty bad decisions when being played out of position, sometimes costing me the game. 

Either way, this topic is not about playing players out of position but a lack of Inside Forwards as compared to the original database. I know that I can retrain players or even play them OOP, it's just not something I should be forced to do constantly because of it.

I've been pretty busy lately but the bug report will be finished tomorrow and from what I've researched so far the people saying there isn't a problem will be embarrassed. 

 

Everything that your assistant/coaches/scouts  tell you is nothing more than just a suggestion. You are more than free to ignore it, in fact I think it's probably best to do so on many occasions. Especially when it comes to out of position players. Heck I do it all the time with youngsters to get them first team experience. but I'll move on as it isn't your original point.

As far as availability of newgens who are able to play a particular role, I see it like this; are there enough players with the attribute set to perform in that role. That's it. Things like a player's position familiarity and footedness mean nothing to me personally. If I find a player who can do a job in a particular role in my tactic, I sign them and then do what I need to in order to get the best out of them in said role. Like how you are retraining a couple of your strikers to player in other positions/roles.

But your issue is the fact that there aren't many newgens who are already completely familiar with play as an AML. Personally, I don't see that as an issue because development is not linear in real life and it shouldn't be in FM. Bale was originally a LB and Schweinsteiger was a winger. Heck in a test save in Fiorentina, my most consistent CB was a winger I signed from a Serie B team.

I will say though, I am somewhat inclined to agree there's an issue here. It just isn't exactly a lack of players who can be your IF at AML. I think there's could be an issue in the AI not doing enough to get the best out of players via development. Things like playing players in positions/roles that best suit their attributes, signing players for a different position. I don't see that happen enough especially with youth players.

Should you be 'forced' to play retrain players?If that is what is necessary to get the best out of them in regards to how you want to play and what they are capable of doing then yes absolutely. But so should the AI. That's something I'd definitely like to see more from the game.

[Urg]

19 hours ago, xzar_monty said:

I have now had two youth intakes in my game, and obviously there's no way I can make any conclusions, but here's a comment anyway: coaching Liverpool, I find it baffling to see the newgens' Natural Fitness attributes. I currently have three apparently very talented youth prospects - my coaches are basically saying that all of them are going to beat my current best players in their positions. And indeed, they do look like wonderful up-and-coming stars. Except for one thing.

 

Their Natural Fitness attributes: 5, 6 and 6.

 

Judging by this alone, I'm guessing that it's going to be difficult to make anything out of any of them.

Their natural fitness will increase a bit. And even if it stays low they can still be very good players. Just need to be a bit more careful with them.

[fmfan74]

On 01/03/2017 at 23:00, Seb Wassell said:

The spread of newgens is something we carefully monitor internally. Whilst it is unreasonable to expect the original DB to be created exactly (in fact it is desirable to see variation) and conclusions can only be drawn from DB wide sample sizes we do aim for a general continuation of the spread seen in the first season. We do this on both a DB wide scale and a per-ability bracket scale.

GKs are a known issue. If you have examples of the others that you believe expose a certain trend please do head over to our bugs forum and open up a thread, posting details of the issue and examples illustrating it occurring in your save.

It is also worth mentioning that the generation of newgens is very different to the training of newgens. Either the AI or the human can fall short here and create a surplus/deficit of certain types of player. 

Additionally basing observations on what you find in-game as manager of a club often only reveals a very small percentage of the true picture. Scouting range, player interest, etc. all play a part in what turns up in your searches. These results are often not representative of the DB as a whole.

Cheers,
Seb.

This is so so true.  In my early days I couldn't find the players I wanted because I had no clue about youth and scouting systems let alone having excellent youth coaches.  Once I got the above mentioned all started falling into place.  I firstly made sure I got excellent youth coaches then scouts. 

Now I have found countless youth players of the future.  I make sure I grab them at around 15 or 17 years of age and train them up.  Priority of having them trained to your desired position and loaning them out when they slightly age is important.   I have managed to create a new growth system of players in my team limiting transfer buys big time.  If you just expect to find the player you want with The stats can become limited.  I believe the aim of this games advanced option makes you a better manager and understanding how vital youth structure is.

I don't want to brag but this game has taught me how to transform a team worth 5 mill into 100 mill in just 4 seasons by just developing youth players and selling them.

[Thorne]

On 3/26/2017 at 09:51, aderow said:

Everything that your assistant/coaches/scouts  tell you is nothing more than just a suggestion. You are more than free to ignore it, in fact I think it's probably best to do so on many occasions. Especially when it comes to out of position players. Heck I do it all the time with youngsters to get them first team experience. but I'll move on as it isn't your original point.

As far as availability of newgens who are able to play a particular role, I see it like this; are there enough players with the attribute set to perform in that role. That's it. Things like a player's position familiarity and footedness mean nothing to me personally. If I find a player who can do a job in a particular role in my tactic, I sign them and then do what I need to in order to get the best out of them in said role. Like how you are retraining a couple of your strikers to player in other positions/roles.

I was told that playing players out of their position affects their Decisions attribute. I assume that less the player is familiar with that position, bigger the decrease in the attribute. And which attribute is the highest on average in all players in top clubs? Decisions. So maybe the assistant does have a point here. Decisions is also a key attribute for an Inside Forward (so is the footedness which you don't care about) so it will affect him a lot more than those who don't even have it as recommended.

On 3/26/2017 at 09:51, aderow said:

But your issue is the fact that there aren't many newgens who are already completely familiar with play as an AML. Personally, I don't see that as an issue because development is not linear in real life and it shouldn't be in FM. Bale was originally a LB and Schweinsteiger was a winger. Heck in a test save in Fiorentina, my most consistent CB was a winger I signed from a Serie B team.

It shouldn't be linear, however I shouldn't be responsible to retrain every single player I want to play in that position and the only ones I can retrain to do a decent job actually have better attributes for a different role/position. And that is an issue.

Bale was retrained because he was incredibly talented and Schweinsteiger because he was old. Even the assistant manager (who I am best to ignore) will sometimes advise to retrain wingers and fullbacks to center when they get to a certain age, so things like that do happen in FM.

On 3/26/2017 at 09:51, aderow said:

I will say though, I am somewhat inclined to agree there's an issue here. It just isn't exactly a lack of players who can be your IF at AML. I think there's could be an issue in the AI not doing enough to get the best out of players via development. Things like playing players in positions/roles that best suit their attributes, signing players for a different position. I don't see that happen enough especially with youth players.

Should you be 'forced' to play retrain players?If that is what is necessary to get the best out of them in regards to how you want to play and what they are capable of doing then yes absolutely. But so should the AI. That's something I'd definitely like to see more from the game.

I agree that AI does a poor job on training, like when it trains a player to be a Defensive Full Back, but this example might actually indicate they do try to get the best out of a player by training him in the role he has best attributes for. But yeah, this probably doesn't extend to out of position players. As your for your assumption about my lack of IFs, do you have some data to back that up or are you just guessing?

5 hours ago, fmfan74 said:

This is so so true.  In my early days I couldn't find the players I wanted because I had no clue about youth and scouting systems let alone having excellent youth coaches.  Once I got the above mentioned all started falling into place.  I firstly made sure I got excellent youth coaches then scouts.

Thanks for your advice  I will look into this mysterious scouting and youth coaches you speak about.

[Thorne]

I've posted the bug report about Inside Forwards here. It's just a few simple comparisons but enough to prove there is an issue.

Feel free to debunk those numbers or post a comparison of your own.

[aderow]

8 hours ago, Thorne said:

1) I was told that playing players out of their position affects their Decisions attribute. I assume that less the player is familiar with that position, bigger the decrease in the attribute. And which attribute is the highest on average in all players in top clubs? Decisions. So maybe the assistant does have a point here. Decisions is also a key attribute for an Inside Forward (so is the footedness which you don't care about) so it will affect him a lot more than those who don't even have it as recommended.

2) It shouldn't be linear, however I shouldn't be responsible to retrain every single player I want to play in that position and the only ones I can retrain to do a decent job actually have better attributes for a different role/position. And that is an issue.

3) Bale was retrained because he was incredibly talented and Schweinsteiger because he was old. Even the assistant manager (who I am best to ignore) will sometimes advise to retrain wingers and fullbacks to center when they get to a certain age, so things like that do happen in FM.

4) I agree that AI does a poor job on training, like when it trains a player to be a Defensive Full Back, but this example might actually indicate they do try to get the best out of a player by training him in the role he has best attributes for. But yeah, this probably doesn't extend to out of position players. As your for your assumption about my lack of IFs, do you have some data to back that up or are you just guessing?

1. Footedness, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't matter to me. Simply my opinion. I care more about movement and space. Never said you have to agree. Decisions is funny attribute. But part of getting a guy to learn a position faster is getting him playing it immediately. So if he screws up in the short run, I'm ok with it because the long run benefits always outweigh the short term drawbacks for me.

2. Like I've already said, I feel AI managers could do a better job of putting players in positions that may better suit their attribute set better, so I'll meet you half way. There aren't enough of what you'd consider 'ready made' IFs in your save. And that could be a problem.

3. Of course Bale was talented. Isn't that why he moved him into the from LB? Because his immense skill set was better suited somewhere else? And btw Schweinsteiger stopped playing as a winger almost 10 years ago mate. How old do you think he is?

4. What I was talking about is training players in different positions not just roles.

Am I just pulling it out of my butt and just guessing? I'd like to think I'm not. Player development and scouting are the most interesting part of the game to me. I scout players extensively and in every save in every game I've ever had I've come across players who, to me, would be better suited in a different position. Very very rarely have I seen a player get trained in a different position (even if it's the wrong thing to do). In my current save I've kept an especially close eye on Dortmund, my former club, on how a lot of the youngsters I scouted and signed there have been doing. Some are out on loan, some are in the first team now, some have been sold/on the transfer list. None have been trained in a different position.

Like I said, it's just my experience in my saves.

 

[fmfan74]

The most under estimated section of the forums is the tactics/training section of it.  For me the game is broken into many different categories requiring a certain level of experience and understanding.  It's not like hey let's go hire these people and will be fine from there onward.  Are these coaches adaptable ? how do they work with youngsters ?  Do they have good tactical knowledge let alone are they good at motivating  and discipline ?.  I use to have avg coaches and they were not pushing hard enough for my youth team to get the better of them.  So what is the common action, get rid of dead wood or shave the fat of the bone.  This is  a small part to it for coaches that is.

Then you have as you say the players.  Are they ambitious attitude and professional to fairly professional ?  player attitudes play a big part.  I never buy avg attitude players.  I want to buy players who are professional because the coaches they are going to be working with are of high stat value in many departments.  So as you can see here we have a link and slowly are building it up.  Now you also want to get them very young because time=everything.  If you want to change them into different positions then it's going to take time/experience etc.  

What i do is i buy them extremely young and train them up a bit in my youth teams.  when they have come out of baby mode it's time for them to go out and play against men just like mourinho does when he sends out his youth players across the continent.  This helps them gain experience and if they are lacking while they are on loan you need to tell them to pull their socks up or else.  So firstly as you can see this picture 1.Youth Coaches, 2. Young Players  3.Post baby mode loanings.

in another post i stated that i made a purchase of 60 players in one transfer window.  They were all youth and they are all going to be trained and then loaned.  After that they will be assessed and most will be sold for a nice profit.  I'm already getting offers well over 5 mill for teenagers i have picked up for free in my first season .   mmmmmmmm i like salt and vinegar on my chips please.

have fun.

[noikeee]

On 27/03/2017 at 05:06, fmfan74 said:

This is so so true.  In my early days I couldn't find the players I wanted because I had no clue about youth and scouting systems let alone having excellent youth coaches.  Once I got the above mentioned all started falling into place.  I firstly made sure I got excellent youth coaches then scouts. 

Now I have found countless youth players of the future.  I make sure I grab them at around 15 or 17 years of age and train them up.  Priority of having them trained to your desired position and loaning them out when they slightly age is important.   I have managed to create a new growth system of players in my team limiting transfer buys big time.  If you just expect to find the player you want with The stats can become limited.  I believe the aim of this games advanced option makes you a better manager and understanding how vital youth structure is.

I don't want to brag but this game has taught me how to transform a team worth 5 mill into 100 mill in just 4 seasons by just developing youth players and selling them.

All of what you said might be true and I do enjoy building my own youth players and developing them to my liking, I've even recently had lots of success converting my #10 into the complete wingback I wanted.

However there is still one serious issue, if at the beginning of the game there DOES exist loads of players with the characteristics we want for certain positions/roles, but then they suddenly disappear when the regens take over.

[Thorne]

On 3/27/2017 at 18:53, aderow said:

1. Footedness, in the grand scheme of things, doesn't matter to me. Simply my opinion. I care more about movement and space. Never said you have to agree. Decisions is funny attribute. But part of getting a guy to learn a position faster is getting him playing it immediately. So if he screws up in the short run, I'm ok with it because the long run benefits always outweigh the short term drawbacks for me.

2. Like I've already said, I feel AI managers could do a better job of putting players in positions that may better suit their attribute set better, so I'll meet you half way. There aren't enough of what you'd consider 'ready made' IFs in your save. And that could be a problem.

3. Of course Bale was talented. Isn't that why he moved him into the from LB? Because his immense skill set was better suited somewhere else? And btw Schweinsteiger stopped playing as a winger almost 10 years ago mate. How old do you think he is?

4. What I was talking about is training players in different positions not just roles.

Am I just pulling it out of my butt and just guessing? I'd like to think I'm not. Player development and scouting are the most interesting part of the game to me. I scout players extensively and in every save in every game I've ever had I've come across players who, to me, would be better suited in a different position. Very very rarely have I seen a player get trained in a different position (even if it's the wrong thing to do). In my current save I've kept an especially close eye on Dortmund, my former club, on how a lot of the youngsters I scouted and signed there have been doing. Some are out on loan, some are in the first team now, some have been sold/on the transfer list. None have been trained in a different position.

Like I said, it's just my experience in my saves.

 

1. Footedness does matter to me, usually not when buying a player but for small things like choosing which side of the central midfield/defense I will play the player at. For an IF it's a must though as he needs to cut inside, pass and shoot with his "wrong" foot. I know a player will learn faster if he plays in the position but there's also other things to consider like Versatility (how long it will take him to learn) and well...results.

2. While I agree with you that AI managers don't do enough retraining to new positions it's not the reason why there's a lack of IFs in the future and shouldn't be the topic of discussion here. Exactly how many players do you think exist that have better sets of attributes to play IF than they do for their current role?

3. The issue with players like Bale isn't just with AI managers, it's with newgen generation and how retraining works in FM in general. FM10 Bale was natural at DL and accomplished at ML,  FM11 Bale was natural at ML and accomplished at DL and AML. FM17 Bale is natural at AML but also has 

Spoiler

19 at AMC, 19 at AMR, 16 at Striker, 15 at ML, 14 at MR and only 7 at DL.

You can't recreate that in the game nor will you ever see a newgen like this.

4. (see 2.)

Well assuming that there isn't an issue based on few players you've retrained to a new position and assuming you know a lot more about scouting than me is pretty much pulling it out of your butt, sorry. I actually scout so extensively I didn't even need to do any database checks before I started this topic. Yes, there are players who are better suited for a different position and yes, the AI doesn't retrain as much as it should but does this concern the IF problem? Not really.

I did a database check just for you to compare players in all positions with key IF attributes at at least 10. The number drops from 5137 in original database to 1479 in one with only newgens, despite the average current ability of players going up.

[Thorne]

23 hours ago, fmfan74 said:

The most under estimated section of the forums is the tactics/training section of it.  For me the game is broken into many different categories requiring a certain level of experience and understanding.

I appreciate you trying to help but this really isn't the issue here.

[fmfan74]

i am passing on what i did. Not accusing anyone, i had shortages like yourself and hence me going with youth talent.  Yes there might be a lacking of talent to the systems you use or anybody else.  But surely you can make them as i've done this countless times with my youth.  Like i explained  i had to get them trained up properly in my youth teams. Then when they get to a certain age i loan them out also not forgetting to have them mentored by senior players all plays a part aye.

As for finding the players it comes down to scouting.  How is your scouting network ??? if they are avg then your going to have troubles finding the players you want let alone getting full scout reports.  I kid you not the busiest times of my season is when i set scouts up to look for young talent and get scout reports.  I easily set over 500 searches.  I have like 8 leagues running and have scouts prowling around them day and night.  

Are you looking for young talent to build from scratch ? or are you wanting talent that is ready for your team ASAP ?.   I loved having  forwards like Costa and Ibra but how often do we find them in real life ? are they easy to find ? no way.  Unless you use the tool to find a certain player of his type will lead you to those players quickly but i'm sure they will probably be expensive and older players.

[fmfan74]

Here is something for you.  Just read how the tutoring affects the young player.  Please read this as some of the tutors attributes will be reflected to the tutored players.  

http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/squad/player-tutoring

Pay close attention to the personality the tutor must have so that you can get a good 6 month lesson in for your youngster otherwise it will be lowered thats why i always look for Professional minded players.

[MBarbaric]

1 hour ago, fmfan74 said:

i am passing on what i did. Not accusing anyone, i had shortages like yourself and hence me going with youth talent.  Yes there might be a lacking of talent to the systems you use or anybody else.  But surely you can make them as i've done this countless times with my youth.  

the problem isn't with human user, it is common knowledge you can retrain the player. Problem is (OP claims) that it seems to be obligatory to do it as there are no "natural" i.e. inside forwards. Another problem is that AI doesn't do it so eventually you end up being the only manager in the universe with proper inside forwards. the rest of football world uses half adapt players. And this is much bigger issue since human player can resolve this. Whoever says it is somehow "reflecting changing trends in football"... that is just crap since AI should adopt their formation to the lack of certain type of player.

anyway, OP promised some hard evidence on this but we have still seen none.

[fmfan74]

5 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

the problem isn't with human user, it is common knowledge you can retrain the player. Problem is (OP claims) that it seems to be obligatory to do it as there are no "natural" i.e. inside forwards. Another problem is that AI doesn't do it so eventually you end up being the only manager in the universe with proper inside forwards. the rest of football world uses half adapt players. And this is much bigger issue since human player can resolve this. Whoever says it is somehow "reflecting changing trends in football"... that is just crap since AI should adopt their formation to the lack of certain type of player.

anyway, OP promised some hard evidence on this but we have still seen none.

Yeah i see what you mean with the IF's.  Not something i usually work on.  And if the AI isn't giving much birth to those players then yes there is an issue or an imbalance somewhere.   Personally when i look at man utd with anthony martial he plays hell of a lot better as a central forward.  But for Mourinho he likes using him as an IF and yes it's causing some issues.

should forwards be given the  "IF" trademark naturally.  Probably would help but given anthony martial is struggling in that position for now but thats all relative based on other players feeding him and what not.

[Thorne]

fmfan74, I'm happy MBarbaric was able to explain it to you, And it's not like you can always develop. What if you've just taken over a new club, were recently promoted and didn't have a good youth system or had a huge transfer budget and wanted a ready made player, etc? And the website you gave me is one of my favorites regarding FM information. While I already knew most of the stuff there it did help me understand why all the top sides use an Inside Forward.

MBarbaric, I've already submitted the bug report, you can find a link to it a few posts up.

[fmfan74]

11 minutes ago, Thorne said:

fmfan74, I'm happy MBarbaric was able to explain it to you, And it's not like you can always develop. What if you've just taken over a new club, were recently promoted and didn't have a good youth system or had a huge transfer budget and wanted a ready made player, etc? And the website you gave me is one of my favorites regarding FM information. While I already knew most of the stuff there it did help me understand why all the top sides use an Inside Forward.

MBarbaric, I've already submitted the bug report, you can find a link to it a few posts up.

It seems to be that "IF" is more of an advanced position for a forward developed over years of experience.  Your right though i don't see many forwards with that as a natural (green) position in them.  

Look at Anthony Martial, his superb as a central striker going forward hence why Sevilla wants him.  Given his new role as "IF" his a not as good and it's more of a new thing for him.  He will need a long time to become fluent over time.

If your got no youth and no budget then your screwed which is another story.  As for the IF it requires special attributes compared to a normal striker going forward. Have you seen many "IF's" playing in lower leagues like 4th division often ? is it a big market in real life ?  Not every coach in lower leagues is like Pep.  I'm just saying what i'm seeing in game and the position "IF" hasn't been around in FM from the first day it was developed so what's changed and why ?

[Thorne]

11 minutes ago, fmfan74 said:

It seems to be that "IF" is more of an advanced position for a forward developed over years of experience.  Your right though i don't see many forwards with that as a natural (green) position in them.  

Look at Anthony Martial, his superb as a central striker going forward hence why Sevilla wants him.  Given his new role as "IF" his a not as good and it's more of a new thing for him.  He will need a long time to become fluent over time.

If your got no youth and no budget then your screwed which is another story.  As for the IF it requires special attributes compared to a normal striker going forward. Have you seen many "IF's" playing in lower leagues like 4th division often ? is it a big market in real life ?  Not every coach in lower leagues is like Pep.  I'm just saying what i'm seeing in game and the position "IF" hasn't been around in FM from the first day it was developed so what's changed and why ?

Look at Kylian Mbappé. 17 years old at the start of the game, natural Inside Forward. As is Martial. The game doesn't consider it a thing developed over years of experience with the starting players, so why should it be any different with the newgens?

Not every team can have good youth development due to finances/board restrictions.  And I'm not even talking about the lower leagues, in my last save the board didn't let me upgrade youth development until we were in the Premier League and only made it mandatory for us to join the youth league two seasons earlier.

[fmfan74]

ok i'm going to note down what seb wasell said.  I use this as gospel and i agree with it 100%  Read the text below and pay close attention to the red font and most importantly the blue is my special and so bloody true.  The green font is perfectly stated, a small percentage of th database so where are you looking at.

 

It is also worth mentioning that the generation of newgens is very different to the training of newgens. Either the AI or the human can fall short here and create a surplus/deficit of certain types of player. 

Additionally basing observations on what you find in-game as manager of a club often only reveals a very small percentage of the true picture. Scouting range, player interest, etc. all play a part in what turns up in your searches. These results are often not representative of the DB as a whole.

[aderow]

21 hours ago, Thorne said:

1. Footedness does matter to me, usually not when buying a player but for small things like choosing which side of the central midfield/defense I will play the player at. For an IF it's a must though as he needs to cut inside, pass and shoot with his "wrong" foot. I know a player will learn faster if he plays in the position but there's also other things to consider like Versatility (how long it will take him to learn) and well...results.

2. While I agree with you that AI managers don't do enough retraining to new positions it's not the reason why there's a lack of IFs in the future and shouldn't be the topic of discussion here. Exactly how many players do you think exist that have better sets of attributes to play IF than they do for their current role?

3. The issue with players like Bale isn't just with AI managers, it's with newgen generation and how retraining works in FM in general. FM10 Bale was natural at DL and accomplished at ML,  FM11 Bale was natural at ML and accomplished at DL and AML. FM17 Bale is natural at AML but also has 

  Reveal hidden contents

19 at AMC, 19 at AMR, 16 at Striker, 15 at ML, 14 at MR and only 7 at DL.

You can't recreate that in the game nor will you ever see a newgen like this.

4. (see 2.)

Well assuming that there isn't an issue based on few players you've retrained to a new position and assuming you know a lot more about scouting than me is pretty much pulling it out of your butt, sorry. I actually scout so extensively I didn't even need to do any database checks before I started this topic. Yes, there are players who are better suited for a different position and yes, the AI doesn't retrain as much as it should but does this concern the IF problem? Not really.

I did a database check just for you to compare players in all positions with key IF attributes at at least 10. The number drops from 5137 in original database to 1479 in one with only newgens, despite the average current ability of players going up.

Footedness hasn't stopped any of my wide players from cutting inside, passing, or shooting but I digress. 

I never said you had to agree. And you have nothing to apologize for. I also never said there wasn't an issue and I never said I knew more than you. I just happen to see it differently than you do. I have my opinion and you have yours. 

At the end of the day, you've already posted in the bugs forum so if there is an issue in how newgens are created/implemented, SI is able to fix it.

Random sidenote: when you say a player is a natural inside forward do you mean the suggestions your assistant gives you/star rating for the role or do you mean based on what you personally think attribute wise makes for a good inside forward?

[Thorne]

10 minutes ago, fmfan74 said:

It is also worth mentioning that the generation of newgens is very different to the training of newgens. Either the AI or the human can fall short here and create a surplus/deficit of certain types of player. 

Additionally basing observations on what you find in-game as manager of a club often only reveals a very small percentage of the true picture. Scouting range, player interest, etc. all play a part in what turns up in your searches. These results are often not representative of the DB as a whole.

Whatever the reason, the deficit is there and needs to be addressed.

What part of my database comparisons did you miss? I was comfortable enough to make a post about the issue without doing any database checks because I had 23 scouts and almost 70% world knowledge but that has long since changed and now you have everything black on white.

[Thorne]

38 minutes ago, aderow said:

Footedness hasn't stopped any of my wide players from cutting inside, passing, or shooting but I digress. 

I never said you had to agree. And you have nothing to apologize for. I also never said there wasn't an issue and I never said I knew more than you. I just happen to see it differently than you do. I have my opinion and you have yours. 

At the end of the day, you've already posted in the bugs forum so if there is an issue in how newgens are created/implemented, SI is able to fix it.

It doesn't stop them from doing any of those things but will they do it as effectively? No, they won't. And that's not an opinion.

You said you never saw it as an issue without knowing much about it and comments like that are detrimental to it being solved. There are opinions, and then there are facts.

[aderow]

1 hour ago, Thorne said:

It doesn't stop them from doing any of those things but will they do it as effectively? No, they won't. And that's not an opinion.

You said you never saw it as an issue without knowing much about it and comments like that are detrimental to it being solved. There are opinions, and then there are facts.

Yes. That is very much is an opinion. Agree to disagree and all that jazz.

I'm not the one who's going to investigate so I don't see the words of a random stranger on the internet like me is going to impact what SI choose and not choose to investigate. I don't see how giving an opinion on something is all that detrimental in the grand scheme of things. Just like you've given yours.

And btw, in a game where every save progresses uniquely, one example from one save does not amount to fact. At least not outside that one save. I am not dismissing what you've stated. I'm not that rude. Most of the time at least. All I'm saying is that it could be an indicator of an issue or it could be an outlier. The only ones who could know are SI.  And you've already brought it to their attention in the bugs forum.

Once again, if there an issue, I hope it is addressed. Every little improvement to the game, I am all for.

Also it seems you missed my last question in my previous response.

[perpetua]

@Thorne

I agree there is an issue and I have run several games with results very similar to yours.

While all the comments made on here about being able to use players out of position and re-train players are completely valid, as long as the AI doesn't follow these workarounds the user is at a distinct advantage against the AI.  Since for most users the game is played against the AI, it's imperative that AI controlled teams assign players' training in a way to produce results that give us the feeling of realism.

And while I agree with the responses that our prejudices of today and the prevalence of IF's today may not persist into the future, I question the AI's ability to get creative and come up with original tactical systems which make the best use of the players available 10-15 years into the future.  

If most managers in football are still using 433 or 4231 in the game's future (which they are), then they should be looking to produce players which suit this formation and their tactical systems.  As such, we should be seeing plenty of IFs 10-15 years into the future because the game isn't sophisticated enough to evolve tactical systems based on players available in the marketplace.  

As such, player training should be working towards the goal of preparing a player for the first team.  If a team uses and hence needs IFs, AI should work to get players ready to fill this role rather than blindly training players into roles for which coaches deem them suitable based on their attributes at age 16-17.  

Given that most newgens are created with relatively high physical attributes in comparison to technical and mental, AMR or AMLs are almost always deemed as being wingers by AI coaches even if they could be something else.  Hence their training as Wingers, rather then IFs and hence the prevalence of Wingers in the game 10-15 years into the future.

I have seen one player who is either footed (stronger foot is right) that is created as an AML/ST in 2019.
He starts out with:
Crossing: 9
Dribbling: 12
Finishing: 7
Long Shots: 9
Passing: 6
Off the Ball: 10
Vision: 11

So he certainly isn't incapable of being trained as an IF.
When I take over the club, a coach suggests he should be retrained as an MR because he's right footed.

Fast forward to 2029 and he has:
Crossing: 15 (+6)
Dribbling: 15 (+3)
Finishing: 8 (-1)
Long Shots: 13 (+4)
Passing: 10 (+4)
Off the Ball: 12 (+2)
Vision: 12 (+1)

So the player has clearly been trained as a Winger even though the player could have just as easily been trained as an IF.

There are hundreds of similar examples in each holiday game that I have run (over 30 so far) while testing the Turkish league.  Your observations are certainly not a one off incident in my experience.

[noikeee]

3 hours ago, fmfan74 said:

ok i'm going to note down what seb wasell said.  I use this as gospel and i agree with it 100%  Read the text below and pay close attention to the red font and most importantly the blue is my special and so bloody true.  The green font is perfectly stated, a small percentage of th database so where are you looking at.

 

It is also worth mentioning that the generation of newgens is very different to the training of newgens. Either the AI or the human can fall short here and create a surplus/deficit of certain types of player. 

Additionally basing observations on what you find in-game as manager of a club often only reveals a very small percentage of the true picture. Scouting range, player interest, etc. all play a part in what turns up in your searches. These results are often not representative of the DB as a whole.

You clearly aren't understanding us at all, and quoting a SI staff member in several different colors isn't going to change any of that. The 2nd paragraph you're quoting is completely pointless because Thorne has provided statistics obtained using 3rd party scouting tools (just like I did for FM16), and not the player search tool in game which is limited to scouting range.

I also find this a poor explanation:

"Either the AI or the human can fall short here and create a surplus/deficit of certain types of player."

Given that the human user is only ever taking over 1 club at a time, and the AI is managing all the remaining thousands of clubs, I don't understand why can it be the human's responsibility for a DB-wide issue. It's clearly either the AI failing to train the players in a realistic balanced way, and/or the generation of players at the beginning.

Whether we play the game well to properly retrain players or develop youth players properly, is a completely different thing that has absolutely no relation to this issue. The fact of the matter is if you take over a club in the first 5 seasons you've got immediately loads of ready-made IFs in the transfer market without needing to train anyone, but if you do it 20 years into the future they have become very rare. This is a balancing issue, not a feature or the users not understanding how to play the game. The option to develop players rather than buy ready-made is always there, but it shouldn't suddenly become the only option years into the future.