Why FM is decaying?

[YKW]

Just now, noikeee said:

Sorry for kinda hijacking this thread, we're now a bit away from the initial opening rant...

I think everyone's enjoyed it, and your ideas are fantastic. The conversation will be whatever it is.

[Craigus89]

11 minutes ago, noikeee said:

You know what, I think I agree with that. Maybe "cautious" rather than "safe" but yeah. "Counter" doesn't really mean counter-attacking necessarily as many people perceive it, and "control" isn't really all that controlled. Quite misleading. Maybe even bring back the old "counter-attack" checkbox instead of it being attached to that mentality.

Definitely agree that implementing all that I'm suggesting would take a huge amount of time and work. No illusions there.

Sorry for kinda hijacking this thread, we're now a bit away from the initial opening rant...

 

I think the words used to describe the mentalities were intended to help players who were unsure where to start. Obviously we wouldn't want to take a step back to the old sliders, but using words that are less associated with a particular style of play would help.

They do provide a decent basis to start from, but as we all know people think you have to use a certain mentality to create a specific tactic or ways of playing. You can play a moderately defensive game with the "Attacking" mentality, and conversely play a fast paced attacking style on "Defensive" mentality.

[YKW]

11 minutes ago, noikeee said:

You know what, I think I agree with that. Maybe "cautious" rather than "safe" but yeah. "Counter" doesn't really mean counter-attacking necessarily as many people perceive it, and "control" isn't really all that controlled. Quite misleading. Maybe even bring back the old "counter-attack" checkbox instead of it being attached to that mentality.

I've been trying to find out more about what exactly is taught during the various coaching courses, and how it is taught etc. I've found an interesting summary from a couple of years ago about the Uefa B license. Here is an interesting bit about Counter Attacking that might be useful to you and your ideas?

http://www.discountfootballkits.com/blog/continuing-to-progress-up-the-coaching-ladder/

Quote

Day 7 was all about counter attacking. The day stared with discussions about what is counter attacking and when it is used and by what teams. Again, the next part are my notes typed up so if something’s don’t make sense please don’t hesitate to contact me.

Group definition of counter attacking ‘A Quick reaction in transition from defence to attack by quickly trying to catch the opposition out of shape and position’

FA definition of counter attacking ‘Attacking quickly in possession and playing over, around or through a team before they can regain their defensive structure’

How is the ball won?

• Defensive third
• Interceptions
• Poor crosses

How is it moved forward?

• Quick
• Fast
• Direct

Players around the ball

• Run ahead to create space
• Options
• Overload

Players behind the ball

• Push forward to support behind the ball

Techniques/Skills Involved:

• Passing
• Dribbling
• Running with the ball
• Finishing

The next part talked about design counter attacks compared to default. Design counter attacks are when teams set up to counter, it can be from an opposition set pieces or how they defend when out of possession. Default counter attacks happen naturally for example: When an interception occurs.

 

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Tony Wright 747 said:

Barside, back in the days of champ manager and before 2D, there was a release which had photos of the real stadiums as background to the text commentary, is there a big difference in the licenses for a photograph to be used compared to a 3D replica of the stadium

Back in the day image rights & licenses were not a concern, at least not one that lawyers were all too bothered in pursuing.

[Wells]

I agree about the tactical improvements, it's the one thing that disappointed me upon the release of FM 17 when I saw they added something like "social media", but not single improvement to the main key part of the game.

[themadsheep2001]

On 27/02/2017 at 16:34, noikeee said:

FM isn't "decaying", but there's clearly a few issues with the current tactical instructions and tactical UI - it is both limited for those of us who want extra freedom, and unclear/confusing for those who are starting out and are unfamiliar with the history of the game.

I completely disagree with the idea roles should be scrapped. Roles exist to allow us to assign a bunch of instructions to a player at once, which is hugely convenient. There's too many things hardcoded into the current roles which aren't customizable enough, but I sure as hell don't want to go back to give every single instruction one-by-one to every single of my players. Scrapping roles is not the solution. The UI confusion is rooted in other things.

@MBarbaric raised a much more important issue: there's a disconnect between the idea that the positions are the defensive formation, and how real life football works. In real life, most of the players that play in the AM and ST strata, defend much deeper like they do in FM when the ball is on their half. You can better mimick real defensive structures by fielding attacking midfielders in the midfield strata, and strikers in the AM strata, but then you will lose out on the roles intended for them (ie, having to modify wide midfielder roles to mimick inside forwards or raumdeuters; or having to use things like shadow striker instead of the variety of striker roles). And you will lose out on the position familiarity set for these real life players in the DB. This is just plain wrong and one my key issues with the current system.

 

------------------------------------

To summarize, this is what I would want to be changed in tactics:

1. The formation on screen should stop being the defensive formation, and become the "average" formation between both defensive and attacking formations. The defensive formation would then be set through roles/duties and through new specific, defensive instructions such as "defend deeper/stay higher without ball" (for AMs and STs) or "defend wider/narrower" (for wide players).

Two new cosmetical panels would be added in the tactics screen, as a "preview" of both defensive and attacking formations so everything becomes clearer to the user.

2. Team shape should stop affecting creative freedom and be exclusively about the spread of mentality. Perhaps give it a new name other than "shape" and "Fluid/Structured". Scrap the "be more expressive/disciplined" TI and create a new modifier for creative freedom next to team shape.

This would not only give us more freedom to reproduce systems that are difficult at the moment (ex compact defensive systems), also allow us to use compactness and expressiveness as two different things, like they are in real life. It would simplify massively this convoluted setting which is so hard to explain.

3. Roles should be far more changeable. I think SI has gone a bit too paranoid about tactical exploits on this, a lot of hardcoded stuff is simply far too much. Why can't we no longer tell a CM/D to "hold position"? Why can't we create a central winger anymore? Why can't we make a slightly different hybrid of striker roles, by making a complete forward a little less complete by switching off an instruction or two; or making a defensive forward or a target man a bit more adventurous? Why can't I tell a playmaker to shoot from long too if he can also do it? Why must an inverted wingback have EVERY dribbling/passing instruction set up to the max? Etc, etc. 

We've gone from a system in which we had a absurd unrealistic level of freedom (sliders), to the current one in which we are limited to SI's vision and must use convoluted workarounds if we want to reproduce other alternative visions. Surely there's a happier middle ground somewhere?

4. Review all existent TIs and scrap those that are redundant. Some are just plain mistifying. Here's what I'd do:

- Scrap "work ball into box" and replace it by two new ones: "cross less" and "don't shoot from distance". Most users don't know that work ball into box reduces crossing. Taking it away and making it its own TI would clarify it.

- Scrap "retain possession" which nobody knows exactly what it does, other than some mystical combination of effects. Re-add "pass into feet", or rename it "pass sideways" or "don't pass into space" instead - this TI was a hell of a lot clearer. Add "dribble less" too as the opposite of "dribble more".

Essentially TIs would stop being these wacky cummulations of effects, and go back to basics, like we used to have for players:

- shoot more / shoot less
- cross more / cross less
- pass into space more / pass into space less
- dribble more / dribble less

This might be a bit blunt but it is clear and simple and not any harder to use.

5. Introduce extra defensive instructions. This is a field FM severely lacks, although I'm a little afraid adding too many new instructions might make tactics overly complex for beginner users, or those not as interested in tactics. But our current system of defend higher/lower, press more/less, mark tighter/not tighter (zonal/man) is just not good enough.

Ideally I'd want:

- TI and PI for "block passing lanes" (to focus on blocking passing lanes, instead of directly targetting the closest player)
- TI for "press opponents facing backwards" (pressing trigger, make everyone rush forward whenever the opposing player with the ball is looking backwards)
- TI for "press immediately after losing ball" (pressing trigger, make everyone rush for 5 seconds whenever ball is lost, then return to normal)
- TI for "retreat into shape in own half" (when together with things like "close down much more", would allow for hectic pressing in the opponent's half, then retreating into soaking-the-pressure mode in own half)
- TI for "defend narrower" (when together with very wide width settings, would allow for a narrow shape with ball and wide without ball)

I haven't organized these ideas well enough on defensive settings yet, but these are the key things we're missing. I suspect most top level teams would just check most of these TIs, but they could be suicidal against highly technical opponents and/or when deployed by low workrate, low aggression, low stamina players.

------------------------------------

I think this is probably enough ideas for a revamp for now. I would post this on the features request forum, but I need some time to do some drawings, and therefore create a more visual representation of my ideas.

Really like this post, there's been a core 6/7 of us mods who linger around the tactical forums who have been pushing these very concepts since FM14. Whether it's evolution or revolution, it's a much needed step forward

[MBarbaric]

16 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Really like this post, there's been a core 6/7 of us mods who linger around the tactical forums who have been pushing these very concepts since FM14. Whether it's evolution or revolution, it's a much needed step forward

then they can start on training module overhaul where you should be able to instruct some specific moves for your team.

- both your wingers come inside when the team doesn't have the ball to crowd the middle and then make horizontal runs towards the touchline to drag their markers away and create gaps in defence that can be exploited by players running from deep or a through ball for a diagonal run.

 

 

or have a wide player (8) that has a free role and goes to opposite side to create an overload for quick change of side and pass to an overlapping full back.

or have a winger that starts narrow (17) and moves wide. at same time, cm behind him (7) would make the same movement which, in turn would drag away markers and create space for inverted full back (6) to exploit...

[themadsheep2001]

49 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

then they can start on training module overhaul where you should be able to instruct some specific moves for your team.

- both your wingers come inside when the team doesn't have the ball to crowd the middle and then make horizontal runs towards the touchline to drag their markers away and create gaps in defence that can be exploited by players running from deep or a through ball for a diagonal run.

 

 

or have a wide player (8) that has a free role and goes to opposite side to create an overload for quick change of side and pass to an overlapping full back.

or have a winger that starts narrow (17) and moves wide. at same time, cm behind him (7) would make the same movement which, in turn would drag away markers and create space for inverted full back (6) to exploit...

that is too specific a starting point. You would need to start top level down, with concepts. That starts with the TC.

There is no point talking about specific side oberlwds when we can't even clearly see attacking and defensive transitions 

[Powermonger]

13 hours ago, noikeee said:

On the subject of having extra "transitional" shapes, that's interesting and ideal but I think SI will want to draw a line somewhere on how complicated tactics are. Although from what I understand you want these screens to be purely cosmetic.

Yes these are purely cosmetic to allow us as managers to see how the shape of our team will look as it transitions through the different thirds. I don't think we should have to wait until we play a match to get to see how how tactic looks after we have setup the tactic, through player positioning and TI/PIs.

13 hours ago, noikeee said:

Just the other day I was having a conversation in the tactics forum on how we use team shape changes mid-match. I use team shape exclusively to increase space between lines. By contrast @herne79 was saying he uses it to give it a slight creative freedom boost. These are two completely different things. Why not just separate it? If you want both effects you can still press both buttons.

I am still mulling over this. I see your point and thinking of it in the context of the other settings and what and if any the knock of ramifications would be.

14 hours ago, noikeee said:

This is a good idea, might be better than my "retreat into shape" TI idea. If you want high pressing in the opponents half but more cautious defending in your half, then set your "line of confrontation" high, and watch your team press high when the ball is beyond that line. When below... watch them retreat.

Thanks. I think this option of all would allow us more control on instructing our team where to press and by how much.

 

12 hours ago, noikeee said:

Good mock up

For the Vertical Compactness, would this be for both defensive and offensive phase, or just offensive phase?

Block Passing Lanes would work well with a OI instruction to single out players for invited pressing to then press and force mistakes.

[Powermonger]

2 hours ago, MBarbaric said:

then they can start on training module overhaul where you should be able to instruct some specific moves for your team.

Do we really want more complex training though where we have to worry about constantly setting up specific training? I am more of the opinion where a new training system is dictated by our tactical setup, fixtures, squad selection, pre-match scouting and post match reports, thus our decisions regarding these aspects alter the training for us.

 

 

[Preveza]

I  think we all should pass these tactical suggestions and more in the Suggestions thread. It gives the devs a much better chance to read each idea separately instead of reading this whole thread from start to finish. If we truly want the game to improve, lets all get our ideas in the suggestions thread. Let's do thissssssss.  

[Guest]

2 hours ago, Powermonger said:

Do we really want more complex training though where we have to worry about constantly setting up specific training? I am more of the opinion where a new training system is dictated by our tactical setup, fixtures, squad selection, pre-match scouting and post match reports, thus our decisions regarding these aspects alter the training for us.

 

 

This is what I'd like to see, currently training is all about improving the individual player with very little link to traiing for a match, any new system should give the manager the opton to either focus on players with a possible detriment to team performance or to focus on match tactic drills which results in player development being driven more by what they do in matches.

[Powermonger]

2 hours ago, Barside said:

This is what I'd like to see, currently training is all about improving the individual player with very little link to traiing for a match, any new system should give the manager the opton to either focus on players with a possible detriment to team performance or to focus on match tactic drills which results in player development being driven more by what they do in matches.

I'm in full agreement. Currently there is no correlation between our tactics and philosophy with the training system. As you say it has a more individual focus but not so much on the success of the team.

I'd like training to be made the heart of the game but that doesn't necessarily mean it needs be complex with endless options we need to configure and choose from. Training should have it's own engine, with everything linking to it that adds input to the training engine to devise ever changing training schedule for us based on the following:

• Our game model (style and philosophy)
• Our objectives
• The principles and phases of play
• Our chosen tactic
• The fixture schedule
• Time of season
• Our staff and their abilities
• The next opposition scout report
• The post match performance report
• Our team

All these things added together direct the training engine to update and amend the teams training throughout the week and season as it progresses. The training model should match our game model and performance.

If we change some settings in our tactic, this feeds back information to the training engine which tweaks our training so it reflects our new tactical settings. After a match and we get a post-match report, if we performed poorly in some area, part of the post-match report gives us options to choose from to work on some aspect of our game back in training. Say our defense organisation was poor which led to conceding a goal, we would be given the option to work more on that part of our game model through training in the week ahead.

Likewise if some individuals performed poorly, the post-match report would like wise give us options to have the individual(s) focus on some aspect of their play more for that week. For the next opposition report, if it is identified there are key players that will cause us problems because of their skill set or ability, or the team uses a certain style of pressing, we can target these identified components of the next opposition which will adjust an aspect of our training to prepare for them.

If all of a sudden the team has two weeks of congested features or it's later in the season and our team is starting to tire, again this information is used by the training engine to tweak our training to keep optimal fitness for the team.

Going into the training module we can see what the training schedule is for the team ahead, listing the individual drills, whether they be rondos, 7v2, 3/4 field, 5x5 area etc, the recovery days but the key factor being though is we do not set these directly, our actions as Manager and the teams performance, plus all the other things listed above directs this for us.

Such a change in training would need a lot of alterations to all areas of the game that link into it but feel it would be a worthwhile change.

 

 

[Preveza]

2 hours ago, Powermonger said:

I'm in full agreement. Currently there is no correlation between our tactics and philosophy with the training system. As you say it has a more individual focus but not so much on the success of the team.

I'd like training to be made the heart of the game but that doesn't necessarily mean it needs be complex with endless options we need to configure and choose from. Training should have it's own engine, with everything linking to it that adds input to the training engine to devise ever changing training schedule for us based on the following:

• Our game model (style and philosophy)
• Our objectives
• The principles and phases of play
• Our chosen tactic
• The fixture schedule
• Time of season
• Our staff and their abilities
• The next opposition scout report
• The post match performance report
• Our team

All these things added together direct the training engine to update and amend the teams training throughout the week and season as it progresses. The training model should match our game model and performance.

If we change some settings in our tactic, this feeds back information to the training engine which tweaks our training so it reflects our new tactical settings. After a match and we get a post-match report, if we performed poorly in some area, part of the post-match report gives us options to choose from to work on some aspect of our game back in training. Say our defense organisation was poor which led to conceding a goal, we would be given the option to work more on that part of our game model through training in the week ahead.

Likewise if some individuals performed poorly, the post-match report would like wise give us options to have the individual(s) focus on some aspect of their play more for that week. For the next opposition report, if it is identified there are key players that will cause us problems because of their skill set or ability, or the team uses a certain style of pressing, we can target these identified components of the next opposition which will adjust an aspect of our training to prepare for them.

If all of a sudden the team has two weeks of congested features or it's later in the season and our team is starting to tire, again this information is used by the training engine to tweak our training to keep optimal fitness for the team.

Going into the training module we can see what the training schedule is for the team ahead, listing the individual drills, whether they be rondos, 7v2, 3/4 field, 5x5 area etc, the recovery days but the key factor being though is we do not set these directly, our actions as Manager and the teams performance, plus all the other things listed above directs this for us.

Such a change in training would need a lot of alterations to all areas of the game that link into it but feel it would be a worthwhile change.

 

 

Stuff like this needs to go in the suggestions thread. 

[sirgiorgio]

22 hours ago, noikeee said:

It's not that different from real life. Maybe in FM shots from the space just outside the area are too easily blocked, but imagine you're a real life manager and your team is doing a good job of covering your area AND the space in front of it, but the opponents are stubborn idiots and will just insist on shooting from 30 yards with crap body positioning. Would you change anything? I wouldn't. Let them waste possession and do these silly shots.

Then it's very different from real life, because football players in general and world-class players in particular are not stubborn idiots who will just insist on shooting from 30 yards with crap body positioning. If it happened once, twice or even three times in one game you would hear the screams from the crowd, the manager and the teammates. Did I mention that Juventus went 1-0 up very early in the game? One less reason to turn a football match into a target shooting competition.

Since the title of the thread is "Why is FM decaying?", and I don't generally agree with that (I'm enjoying this year's edition much more than 16 and 15) I just pointed out a long-standing issue, discussed ad nauseam, which hasn't been solved yet, because I personally think it's simply impossible to solve, unfortunately, unless the ME is re-written from scratch. I will be gladly stand corrected, but reducing the whole thing into "tactics" or "decision making", or "it happens IRL too" doesn't do any good to the game, the devs and our intelligence in general. It's tactics, it's decision making and yes, it happens IRL: it's all this and much, much more.

The funny thing is, this issue actually makes the games easier for those who can see what's going on and much harder for the AI who seems to watch clueless and powerless while the best players in the world act like stubborn idiots and so on, that's why it's often dismissed as a PEBKAC: "A human manager should know how to prevent needless long shots, reduce poor decision making, break a seemingly unbreakable defence and sometimes simply ignore what's going on because you can't win all the time and today you're unlucky, next day you'll be lucky". Now, would someone explain that to the AI?

[themadsheep2001]

4 hours ago, sirgiorgio said:

Then it's very different from real life, because football players in general and world-class players in particular are not stubborn idiots who will just insist on shooting from 30 yards with crap body positioning. If it happened once, twice or even three times in one game you would hear the screams from the crowd, the manager and the teammates. Did I mention that Juventus went 1-0 up very early in the game? One less reason to turn a football match into a target shooting competition.

Since the title of the thread is "Why is FM decaying?", and I don't generally agree with that (I'm enjoying this year's edition much more than 16 and 15) I just pointed out a long-standing issue, discussed ad nauseam, which hasn't been solved yet, because I personally think it's simply impossible to solve, unfortunately, unless the ME is re-written from scratch. I will be gladly stand corrected, but reducing the whole thing into "tactics" or "decision making", or "it happens IRL too" doesn't do any good to the game, the devs and our intelligence in general. It's tactics, it's decision making and yes, it happens IRL: it's all this and much, much more.

The funny thing is, this issue actually makes the games easier for those who can see what's going on and much harder for the AI who seems to watch clueless and powerless while the best players in the world act like stubborn idiots and so on, that's why it's often dismissed as a PEBKAC: "A human manager should know how to prevent needless long shots, reduce poor decision making, break a seemingly unbreakable defence and sometimes simply ignore what's going on because you can't win all the time and today you're unlucky, next day you'll be lucky". Now, would someone explain that to the AI?

It's not impossible to solve, as it's not an issue. It's not being reduced at all. And rewriting the Me from scratch would have nothing to do with it. 

[Powermonger]

5 hours ago, Preveza said:

Stuff like this needs to go in the suggestions thread. 

It was already posted in the feature request forum months ago. 

[Svenc]

 

 

 

On 28.2.2017 at 13:13, sirgiorgio said:

One of them was a penalty... At least 4 or 5 were shots from inside the penalty area. 4 or 5 were from just outside the penalty area, a place where you certainly don't want the likes of Dybala, Marchisio, Pjanic and Higuain to shoot.

Obviously, the problem is not the GK and his rating, The problem is that, as you described, the idea of defending in the game is to allow shots, as long as they are "difficult" and the keeper is "in the advantage", while my idea of defending (and everybody else's, I suppose) is to limit the number of shots period (of course, I'm talking about the shots taken by the opponents... ).

This totally breaks the immersion for me. It doesn't matter if I win, draw or lose or am a neutral spectator. I just don't know what to make of that match: were Empoli lucky? Did they do a good job limiting the damage? Were Juventus unlucky? Did they do a bad job converting their chances? All of the above? None of the above?

Whilst some more extreme stats are fueled by tactical approaches that aren't very much "football" (would be a bit boring if you couldn't go wild here), the day we'll get an ME where Bayern can struggle to get a single shot going for 40 minutes against 2. Bundesliga opposition (last season Bochum), will be a good day. So long, consider this.... as always, FM may aim to get this realistic, but well it's a computer sim. Genuine on one ones are converted at 1/3 rates, and from play, chances that sport like conversion chances of above 50% are very rare. With that in mind, I you were to upload the match, at least somebody could judge it. When matches are provided in which supposedly "sitters" were missed in huge amounts, it mostly shows otherwise. Yes parts of it is subjective, but one day I am going to turn this into a humorous meme, which is SI should provide added stats here, fairly basic ones that have been missing all along which could already prove helpful by adding them all itself.

What is fairly dominating: http://i.imgur.com/OJ3VQkr.jpg
What your average FM player confuses for utterly dominating: http://i.imgur.com/PV809Jd.jpg

In real analysis, shots are judged individually, based on more or less elaborate models, not on "gut feeling". https://www.theguardian.com/football/blog/2013/feb/24/football-numbers-game-gary-nevilleThis is important, as FM may not be accurate, but it likely isn't based on gut feeling either (or else things would be a horrible mess). This hasn't changed in any previous iteration, and it's bleeding over into post match reports as well due to the game not noticing due to those missing stats, making an occasionally mockery of what was going on and further fueling frustration. To visualize, this has never been, and isn't in FM 2017, unlucky, or wasteful. West Ham have firstly actually won, and they were on the more fortunate end to score 2 as there is like two shots within any kind of space all match -- and the biggest one is with the opposition. This could have ended in a draw or even a loss at any point, despite West Ham having a shot advantage at rates of like 10:1.

 

[noikeee]

1 hour ago, Svenc said:

What is fairly dominating: http://i.imgur.com/OJ3VQkr.jpg

Holy crap, that's a massacre.  A billion shots from open play inside the area? Oh dear.

Maybe one day FM will introduce Expected Goals and people will be less easily fooled by the current stats. It's gonna take a while before Expected Goals becomes a mainstream thing, though (maybe it never will).

[Andrew_Goats_Gruff]

i totally agree, back in the days.. championship manager, lma manager, fa manager an one i think called player manager.. you no you was playin them everyday. football manager its i gota keep my team talk in a certain way that developers think, if i put angry it will take time to regain that morale, is my training not right, i rarely play fm now because now its not a simulation is it, now its go in to everygame with a 20 page dossier. its not fun.

[sirgiorgio]

16 hours ago, Svenc said:

 

 

 

Whilst some more extreme stats are fueled by tactical approaches that aren't very much "football" (would be a bit boring if you couldn't go wild here), the day we'll get an ME where Bayern can struggle to get a single shot going for 40 minutes against 2. Bundesliga opposition (last season Bochum), will be a good day.

That's what I wanted to say.

As for the rest, you're talking about at least four different things, that all concur to the final outcome:

1. Tactics (in the broadest sense)

2. Statistics

3. Decision making

4. Subjectivity

It's far too easy to blame the average FM player and his (her?) false impressions and expectations, when we all know that in FM even "statistics" are subjective and change, sometimes radically, from one ME update to the other: I'm talking about ratings, key passes, CCC's, HC's etc.

For instance, in one of the screenshot you posted, Nr. 7 took a shot from 40 yards... I wonder if there is a specific tactical instruction that encouraged that shot... If there isn't, then the average FM player is not at fault, it's all about Nr. 7 and his idiocy. But maybe Nr. 7 had a point (the infamous "gk outside the area miskicks" highlight), I don't know. Another screenshot "free-kick-o-rama"... Well, why are there so many free kicks from just outside the penalty area? Would you blame average FM players if they expect a little more accuracy, or a little less, if they feel they score/are punished too often... But what's the real problem? Isn't it that there too many of them?

When I watched Juve-Empoli (I'll try and upload the highlights, but I'm not that good with these things) I, as an average football fan (not only FM player), asked myself "when was the last time I saw a team taking more than 30 shots in one game?" "when was the last time I saw a gk making more than 15 saves? And why nobody seems to care?"  

[dieu]

21 minutes ago, sirgiorgio said:

I, as an average football fan (not only FM player), asked myself "when was the last time I saw a team taking more than 30 shots in one game?" "when was the last time I saw a gk making more than 15 saves? 

You have not watched Man Utd play this season then...

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, sirgiorgio said:

When I watched Juve-Empoli (I'll try and upload the highlights, but I'm not that good with these things) I, as an average football fan (not only FM player), asked myself "when was the last time I saw a team taking more than 30 shots in one game?" "when was the last time I saw a gk making more than 15 saves? And why nobody seems to care?"  

 

Depends, as pointed out by others, the average number of shots isn't that off. I'd argue that it's (too) easy to keep the ball is the bigger factor in parts. The thing is that some players experience this regularly, others less so or not much at all. So to spin this the other way around: When was the last time you have seen a team throwing every single player boxside for the entire 90 minutes, with the centre backs hanging yards back and any easy ball over the top being danger supreme? When was the last time you saw a football team playing ultra narrow including the wide players encouraged inside when trying to stretch packed defenses --- didn't Ajax in the 1970s have that sussed already [stretching the pitch when trying to work the space, vice versa when denying it]? When was the last time you saw a football side throwing wide backs forward for the 90 minutes without somebody covering their runs but pushing everybody forward alongside to them, compressing attacking space this much that the effectively "area of play" is being squeezed to the size of a tunafish can so that it is impossible to play any pass that wouldn't see the next player pushed immediately?  In FM you can do all of this, there's tactics being shared on the officially supported Workshops, that encourage it. The flooding of central areas is currently pretty popular as it helps exploiting current ME issues and may lead to "broken game", "Patch broke my tactics" posts as soon as stuff is fixed. [And I agree, the core issue is naturally that the game for a while allows for it, not the players].

There's that issue with lack of feedback (including the assistants), which is why I tried to have a balanced outlook on this. I'm arguing for some added stats in here precisely because it leads to bad feedback, including the post match reports. But then there's also that issue that people either don't try to or can't translate their stuff into football basics 101. And I mean this is for the most part is team sports basics, not some kind of football tactical masterstroke. With that, too, I've argued before that the game should have been shipped with better help, this is primarily all about the balance in roles/duties (comm guides had sufficiently covered this in a single paragraph). I would be very worried if match stats would regularly look like actually football stats though just cause. The aforementioned matches with 40 corners a match on FM 2013/2014, that required an extreme approach completely alien to any team sports. In case of West Ham above, ditto. It is hard to tell whether such were to happen in football as there is no comparison to it. What is either way, happening, is that defenders have it pish easy in both cases visibly to get a foot in, deflect (for a corner), foul (for a free kick) and clear (for a throw). A better assistant would be able to point at least that out. Bad/unsuited approaches will always manifest in some way -- unless it were hardcoded that they wouldn't be possible.
 

[CarltonBanks]

It is genuinely amazing to me that after all this time, people get mad at how they THINK the player roles system work, and ignore when it's actually explained to them.

[Bradeh]

I think one thing people always fail to realize is that the AI is the most important thing to consider when developing a simulation game, even more so in Football Manager. The tactics, formations, roles, etc have to be designed in a way where the AI can use them effectively to be competitive against the player. The more obtuse the game gets the worse the AI will become.

That is how managers like Pep or Conte sometimes fail miserably in FM, because their perfered formation + players available just don't work, especially Conte in FM17, Pep in FM16. If you were to make it even harder for the AI to understand; the game as a real life simulation would fall apart even more.

 

[MBarbaric]

9 minutes ago, Bradeh said:

That is how managers like Pep or Conte sometimes fail miserably sometimes in FM, because their perfered formation + players available just don't work, especially Conte in FM17, Pep in FM16. If you were to make it even harder for the AI to understand the game as a real life simulation would fall apart.

they fail because FM is far too simplistic with tactics to emulate their approach to the game properly. Guardiola in game can't really play possession game he plays in real... apart mentality/formation/preferred roles/type of players there is no real difference in the way AI managers play. on the other hand, introducing more complicated stuff while basics, like defensive organization, still isn't implemented would only cause trouble. not to mention how difficult it might be to program AI to use more complex tactical solutions. but, hey, we can dream

[forameuss]

People have said in the past that the minute the AI really gets smart is the minute that the game ceases to be widely popular.  They're 100% right.

[sirgiorgio]

1 hour ago, Bradeh said:

I think one thing people always fail to realize is that the AI is the most important thing to consider when developing a simulation game, even more so in Football Manager. The tactics, formations, roles, etc have to be designed in a way where the AI can use them effectively to be competitive against the player. The more obtuse the game gets the worse the AI will become.

Exactly.

Like, the assistant's suggestions Svenc mentioned: I guess we all agree they're useless at best, harmful at worst. But don't AI managers "think" exactly as your assistant? "We don't have anyone marking the posts at corners..." Don't AI managers always have two men marking the posts? Aren't they always fullbacks or wingbacks? 

Of course, that's the beauty of the game. You can turn the worst team in the world into the best team in the world exactly because you're too clever for the AI. You can resurrect 70 year-old tactics and win everything there is to win. And this "suspension of disbelief" is sometimes hard to swallow when it comes to the ME, at least for me. But that's how it works: we either enter in a fantasy world where the human manager can win everything with Barnet or we enter the real world, where the real Barnet manager is a much better tactician (and scout) than anyone of us combined.

I've just won League 1 with Millwall: 108 points (a record), 33 wins (another record). How I didn't win the remaining 13 matches, I don't know... Should I perhaps feel "robbed"? Yes, I should! But the AI managers should feel even more "robbed", because I could do anything I wanted and they couldn't: they HAD to have someone "marking the posts at corners"...