Can't get anything out of Coutinho, what's wrong with my tactic?

[bar333]

My Liverpool save is going ok but there's one problem I can't ignore and it's how poor Coutinho is. I've tried anything I can think of to get him to perform well but I'm officially out of ideas, and this is a problem because he's supposed to be my best player so I keep trying to get him to perform and end up with a complete passenger in my team. This is my tactic -

 

All of my attackers are doing pretty well (Mane has a crazy 15 assists so far) and the team is good going forward, we're 2nd highest scorers with 47 goals in 23 league games and a tendency to easily put 3 or 4 past the smaller teams, but Coutinho is eternally useless, no matter what is happening the one certainty is that he will be one of the weakest players on the pitch. I never see him doing anything in the ME other than running into defenders and losing the ball, and I can't figure out why. Worth mentioning that I've also played him as an AP-S behind the striker a couple of times. In the pic, he's got the Shoot Less Often and Sit Narrower PI's, but I've cycled through pretty much every PI available and no luck.

Here are his season stats -

I can't make much sense of this, I feel like he's taking a lot of crappy long shots but that'll be the unremovable "Shoots from Distance" PPM that SI gave him while still leaving his long shots at just 14, thanks for that by the way!

Halp. Any ideas?

[Kingkestrel]

This Is a pretty straight forward one for me Wijnaldum has really poor stats on 17 and with him and Coutinho playing under 6.90 they need to be changed. In the 4-2-3-1 formation the 3 should be the highest rated players in your team and they're quite simply not other then Mane, which is even more hard to believe when you're 2nd in the league so obviously doing well. As you say Coutinho should be setting the world alight, give him another go behind the striker but as an advanced supporting playmaker.

Also If I was you and this is just an idea I'd move Firmino to the left as an inside forward even he isn't the most natural in that position. Hard working players on the wing seem to work really well as well as having your complete forward attacking instead of supporting so he leaves Firmino on that side on his own giving him the creative freedom he needs. Okay your stirker won't do much else other then stay In the box and score but that's not such a bad thing and with Daniel Sturridge In your squad he's the perfect man for that role although I have noticed he and Origi are out injured.

Whatever you decide to do you simply have to drop Wijanldum for Coutinho you know it makes sense.

[amil21]

Not sure if you have already done this or not, but you could give him a shoot less often and/or more direct passes PI’s. I have the same problem getting production out of Tadic with Southampton in that same role. Adding the PI’s helped a bit but they didn’t completely solve the problem

[cns180784]

If he keeps running into defenders and losing the ball try have him dribble less. It could be effective even if he has the PPM to run with ball often...what you may find is he's being tightly marked, or marked by two players- do you watch your matches or just watch key highlights? watch the game in full to see what happens, or at least in comprehensive mode.

[Rashidi]

You chose a role that will send him dribbling into masses, in fact, into a congested area, the fix is change the duties around in front and perhaps give him sometime else. If you want to play him as a playmaker then play him as one. As an IF he is going to try and shoot and score.  When I look at your system 3 dudes running into the same area. place gets congested he has no passing options...(maybe) or depending on the mentality you have chosen he reckons its worth the risk to try a long shot. Makes sense to me, what the AI is doing. And Can is a playmaker???

[Phelix]

To add on to what @Rashidi is saying, having a DLP means that the ball is going to find it's way to that player more often then not. If you want Coutinho pulling the strings, then he needs to be your playmaker, either in the wide position or centrally. As an IF(s) he will be moving into the same area that your AM(a) and CF(s) are trying to get into. No wonder Mane is having success, as a W(a) he is moving into the least congested spaces and is able to work his magic. So, re-read the positional duty/role information and decide which one you want Coutinho doing. Then look at those players around him, re-read their role descriptors and see if they will complement or be contrary to what you want to achieve with Coutinho.

[westy8chimp]

do you just want coutinho to do well... without being concerned about affecting mane and wijnaldum (who currently seem to be doing very well for the team) ...?

if you make coutinho an AP wither out wide or in AMC he may improve... but you are going to lose the goals your current amc (wijnaldum) is scoring... and affect the number of opportunities Mane gets on the ball, so his assist level will go down... so you may consider changing those two roles to benefit coutinho but perhaps unsettle the team.

id consider making coutinho a winger and leaving the others as they are. it's just a more effective role than IF in my opinion because they don't run into congestion and constantly dribble and shoot. wingers do still get in the box and add orthodox scoring positions.

 

[bar333]

Can as a DLP is a recent change, I mostly have him there as a CM-D, I've just been trying different things.

@Rashidi How would you change the roles upfront then? The thing is as I've mentioned I've tried so many different combinations and options. Right now I've changed the AM-A to AP-S and gave the CF an attack duty, but I'm not expecting much since this is how I played for the first couple of weeks of the season and it was the same story with Coutinho whether he played out wide or as the AMC. I guess I'll give him a run of games as AP-S behind the striker again.

 

@Phelix Same question to you. It seems I'm just clueless as to which roles to pick upfront in a 4-2-3-1 to make sure players don't step on each other's toes. I do prefer the left wide player to cut inside and let the WB do the damage out wide, which has worked out nicely so far. I don't have anyone who is going to be a good winger on the left and the left backs I have are both attacking wing back types who aren't great defensively.

[lemeuresnew]

1 hour ago, bar333 said:

It seems I'm just clueless as to which roles to pick upfront in a 4-2-3-1 to make sure players don't step on each other's toes

what is your creative freedom for the team? i find with a 3-1 up front you need a fair amount of freedom to allow for movement between players. if you are too strict with there freedom it increases the pile up of players

i usually 'try' to play a higher line, how about you? his interceptions seem pretty decent tbh, is he making them further back or forward? 

he already cuts in from the left, so having him play wider would definitely help. maybe try having him switch from the left to center during the match, see if that helps to avoid him being marked out of the game if that is the case?

 

[jonomagloneo]

I would expect an IF(s)  to do better if he picks up the ball with more space between him and the D-line, aided by pairing with an AF/CF(a). Alternatively, your IF could have an attack duty and be working to try and get behind the D-line (with a striker on a support duty). I'd prefer the latter for Coutinho.

You will likely lose the effectiveness of the AM(a) role in terms of goal output, as but I like to think in terms of tactical options and tweaks to add dimensions/possibilities to your strategy (I can't help but notice Wijnaldum's last 5 games form is not great, so might be a good time to try working on a plan B).

I think there's relative merit to your current set-up - Coutinho's positioning, while not helpful for his own performances, is possibly occupying defenders sufficiently to give Wijnaldum the ability to find space himself, not to mention you having the bodies in the middle sucking the opposition inside, only for Mane to then have plenty of space then to exploit out wide.

I'd then set up an "alternative" 4-2-3-1 in your free tactic slot (to make it quicker to shift tactic mid-game) and switch your forward to a AF/CF(a), your AM to be an AM(s) and your LW to be an AP(s) (or alternatively your LW as an IF(s) and AM as an AP(s)). This should help open up space in the AM strata to allow Coutinho more room to work his thang.

Then just see how it goes. I'd anticipate maybe thinking about removing play narrower for this set-up too. And yes, I'd keep Can as a CM(d).

 

[alinp]

I'd agree with the above shout of removing Play Narrower - seems a bid mad to me that if you want the ball to go to your wide men, then why are you telling your team to basically play centrally?

Playmakers attract the ball, so changing him to an AP may help.  The AP often comes hunting for the ball too, to an AP(A) may get you what you want.

However, having aid that, I have him as an IF(S) in a similar set up to you, except I have AM(A), CF/AF(A) through the middle, which should keep them out of his way.  I have a CM(D), DLP(S) central pair.  I'd also consider going VF if you want him to track back further and get involved... and finally, if you find they're losing possession a little too easily, try removing the high tempo - you honestly don't need it.

[chrisrossi]

I play a 4411 now as I've had similar issues to you, I find playing him as advanced playmaker or inside forward with attack duty just see's him running into trouble and I don't think he does enough in the support roles. So within the same setup/style, why don't you try playing him as wide playmaker Attack in the left mid position, slight formation change. I've found he scores and creates lots of goals in this role. I would just suggest either change DLP back to CM d or swap the 2 round, so DLP (d) in right central position. You could leave Mane where he is or bring him back into right midfield with the same role and duty. I find he has more space to move into from there..

Edit: Just to add as well as the wide playmaker attack role, I gave him the PI of More Risky Passes and I have been messing around with adding more direct passes to at times but I'm not sure about the difference it makes.

[difran8]

This formation is so troubling to get right. And it's so popular!

True, the main issue is spacing between the attacking players. I'd give it a try with control/standard fluid/v.fluid but with slower tempo + play wider. Maybe that will negate the problem indirectly, without altering roles-duties

[bar333]

Well I'm using Coutinho in the AMC position as an AP-S with the Dribble More TI so that he makes use of his dribbling ability at least, he's still not putting up amazing numbers but at least is having a much greater effect on the game and getting higher ratings, I assume from more key passes and such.

I'm considering a small tweak to the formation - switching the striker to an AF role and letting Coutinho try more direct passes, the idea is to have the striker a bit further forward and be someone that Coutinho can reliably feed through balls to. Is there a glaring problem with this that I'm not seeing? I've tried it once (without Coutinho) and Sturridge and Origi were both pretty bad but it was a scrappy game in general that ended 1-0. Could this work?

[lemeuresnew]

15 hours ago, bar333 said:

I've tried it once (without Coutinho) and Sturridge and Origi were both pretty bad but it was a scrappy game in general that ended 1-0. Could this work?

it is the same as any game of football you see on tv mate. some times it will, some times it wont

depends on who you are playing, if you or an opponent has a bad day, if the wind is against you or the ball gets stuck in a puddle...

if you want them doing it, go for it. all i would suggest is having a plan b for when it is obvious it isnt going to work that day

[jorgvandervloed]

@bar333

Have you tried dropping Wijnaldum back to CM? And depending on your choice you could drop Can back to VM or play with three in CM. This would open up the space that @Rashidi was talking about. If you give Wijnaldum an attacking duty on the right side he will be still be very dangerous in the goal area, but won't be in Coutinho's space.

Something like this;

CM (S) - CM (D) - CM (A) or BBM(S) - CM (D) - CM (A)

With Countinho as your AP (S) on the left.