Rainmaker 17 v2 – 1000 Game Update. Defending your way to the title with a 3-3-2-2. Low Block + Counter.

[Mr U Rosler]

Greetings,

After now playing over 1,000 games under this ME largely using my Rainmaker 17 tactic I feel I am in a position to offer a refined version of it. There were 2 issues I was looking to overcome, the weakness to counter attacking, particularly down the flanks and the over reliance on your Wingbacks completing their crosses to create the bulk of your chances.

In dealing with exposed flanks, having attacking Wingbacks has too much of an upside to consider dropping their duty down to ‘support’ and even if we did that there would still be many occasions, especially late in games when AI teams get very aggressive and we would be faced with 2 vs 2 counter attacking situations.

So going with 3 Center Backs becomes the obvious/only solution. But where would we find the extra player? I was committed to having 2 Strikers so reluctantly it had to be one of my midfielders.

My experiments in playing without a DM had taught me that this was suicidal so we would have to lose one of the 3 in the central midfield strata. Reluctantly the CM/a would have to go leaving us 2 Box to Box Midfielders to run the midfield.

So we had plugged holes in the back line at the considerable cost of losing our most influential midfielder, how could we compensate for having a key player missing from our attack?       

Having 3 Center Backs affords us a bit more freedom elsewhere, the Wingbacks could be pushed up to a more authentic position and although we still need a DM we do not have to be restricted to an Anchor Man anymore and a Defensive Midfielder/support would see them contribute more to attacks whilst still fulfilling his key defensive duties.

Having a back 3 with Wingbacks pushed up also allows easy build up from the back with lots of passing options along the flanks or a long diagonal pass up to the Strikers which is a feature of the tactic.

Additionally, although the Wingbacks are great attacking options we are no longer ‘forcing’ our team to look for them. Previously they would receive the ball in tight areas, lose it and be caught well out of position. Now we are equally happy for play to develop through the middle only bringing the Wingbacks into play when they are in a good position to receive the ball (in space) which still happens a lot.

We remain committed to our Counter Attacking philosophy in fact there seems to be a strong correlation between the number of players you have in the CM strata and levels of possession. We now have only 2 players here and our average possession stat has dropped to sub 50%, moving from 3 in central midfield to 3 in central defence has also effectively lowered our ‘block’ meaning a lot of our counter attacks are from a deeper position with our opponent having more players committed forward. This suits us as we have a lot more counter attacks against an over committed opponent. 

Despite the reduction in possession and defending a bit deeper our defence is outstanding, 27 clean sheets with only 28 goals conceded in 46 League games. I was even getting messages in press conferences where opposing managers had said they were not looking forward to trying to break us down. This is with a relegation tipped team.

 

 

So, I feel I have been able to improve the defence massively with minimal impact on our attack.

 

New formation

 screenshot windows 7

 

Offering excellent pitch coverage and flexibility in both attack and defense.

 

Thats the theory, how about the reality?

I’m deep into my Academy Challenge and loathe to stop it to test in the Premier League so my main save will have to do, we are currently in League 1 and predicted to finish 2^nd from bottom.

Result

 free photo hosting

 

A stunning season, despite being tipped for relegation we were front runners from start to finish, Millwall hung in there gamely but in a very competitive league they could not match our level of consistency.

When playing well we demolished teams, when we were not in great form we were grinding like hell picking up 1-0 wins or 0-0 draws to keep ticking over.

Anyone with a middle to strong team should be comfortable in most games with a lot less grinding than I had to do!

 

Downloads – Including CHASE/HOLD version of the tactic for situational use. (I always start with the standard tactic)

 

STANDARD -https://www.mediafire.com/?363docdy5rd6nok

CHASE - https://www.mediafire.com/?5mp7z19hyvm1k3q

HOLD -https://www.mediafire.com/?q8yjj7xc7mjowdh

 

P.S – Set your Strikers as corner takers.

NO OI's

[aburfitt11]

Any OI's??

Do you adjust the roles to suit the players or just shoehorn them in the best you can??

[Mr U Rosler]

NO OI's.

Shoehorning is the way to go

[nayrda]

training?

[Mr U Rosler]

Training

Pre – season general training will be 3 weeks of fitness, a month of team cohesion then I leave it on balanced all season.

 

Match training will be on tactical familiarity until its 100% percent, after that I would suggest the following approach.

If you can’t be bothered – As a strong team leave it on attacking movement, as a weak team leave it on defensive positioning

If you are happy to micro-manage  - do this game by game, tough opponent = defensive positioning, easy opponent = attacking movement 
 

[nayrda]

Quote

ty

 

[sims3]

Decent tactic this, took Blackburn Rovers to 9th last season. Did change to another tactic to push on but now I'm in a relegation scrap. Gone back to the original rainmaker to save my season! Hopefully I'll be in the Prem to try this new one out.

[sims3]

What pitch size do you recommend?

 

[Mr U Rosler]

I go standard.

[MrMourinho]

I have to admit it is very impressive defensively. I like that. Since I also follow Chelsea and like to play with a back three, I will try it out with Conte's men. Just one question:

Even if you was supposed to be relegated and managed above all expectations, I see that you are in year 2035, and by that time you should have been able to assemble a fantastic squad with lot of wonder regens who should be able to dominate the world. Do you think you would be as successful if you took a relegation predicted side in seasoson 16/17?

Great to read about your tactics!

Anders, Sweden

[Karnack]

Considering the issues I had with away games with the last version of Rainmaker this is a massive improvement. I'm currently steamrolling the PL with Liverpool

Excellent and thank you!

[Gareth Winter]

16 hours ago, MrMourinho said:

I have to admit it is very impressive defensively. I like that. Since I also follow Chelsea and like to play with a back three, I will try it out with Conte's men. Just one question:

Even if you was supposed to be relegated and managed above all expectations, I see that you are in year 2035, and by that time you should have been able to assemble a fantastic squad with lot of wonder regens who should be able to dominate the world. Do you think you would be as successful if you took a relegation predicted side in seasoson 16/17?

Great to read about your tactics!

Anders, Sweden

He would have assembled a good squad, if it weren't for the fact he is doing the Youth Challenge meaning that he couldn't sign anyone.

[Mr U Rosler]

Yep, not signed a single player during that time instead promoting youth prospects through to the first team.

Had 1 or 2 premier league rated regens but lost them both as board accepted transfer bids.

[MrMourinho]

57 minutes ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Yep, not signed a single player during that time instead promoting youth prospects through to the first team.

Had 1 or 2 premier league rated regens but lost them both as board accepted transfer bids.

Ok, very impressive then! I have to try out your tactic with the current Chelsea team. 👍

[Mr U Rosler]

Funnily enough, i've restarted my academy challenge and in Conference South my 3 centre backs were getting run ragged so I've moved to a flat 451.

Think you need half decent centre backs before you adopt this, wouldnt recommend it non league.

Will likely go back to this as I move up the leagues.

 

[jayahr]

What about the 'no OIs' thing? Would they be detrimental or does it simply mean that you don't have to bother with them?

[Gareth Winter]

1 hour ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Funnily enough, i've restarted my academy challenge and in Conference South my 3 centre backs were getting run ragged so I've moved to a flat 451.

Think you need half decent centre backs before you adopt this, wouldnt recommend it non league.

Will likely go back to this as I move up the leagues.

 

I meant to mention that to you before mate, I couldn't get it to work for me in Vanarama National.

[Mr U Rosler]

I never use OI's.

The tactic is set up and as soon as you apply OI's they can start pulling people out of position etc so I personally steer clear of them.

[Cuper]

no transfers, needless to say anything

[aburfitt11]

6 hours ago, Mr U Rosler said:

Funnily enough, i've restarted my academy challenge and in Conference South my 3 centre backs were getting run ragged so I've moved to a flat 451.

Think you need half decent centre backs before you adopt this, wouldnt recommend it non league.

Will likely go back to this as I move up the leagues.

 

Working for me in the Dorset Premier with Mere Town, but my team is pretty strong for the division CB's included

[PeeDub]

Do you have any PIs? (Running on iPad)

[sims3]

So far, so good. Only two games into my season. After avoiding relegation, I've started solidly, last min 1-0 home win against west Ham and 1-1 away to Norwich. 

Decent pre season, Struggled to attract marquee players on the whole, but a free signing of Zouma was decent. Will post more as season progresses.

[Mr U Rosler]

Not many PI's, i'll post later.

[MattP100]

Nice tactic.

I've been using something similar with Eastleigh (similar shape and set-up, but a variation of 5-2-3 / 3-4-3 / 3-2-2-3) and I tried out your HOLD variation for FA Cup games at home to Everton in the third round and then Spurs in the fifth (I wanted a defensive tactic to get a draw and an away replay). It worked

[jayahr]

Staying away from downloading the tactics of others, but I'm very interested to see how others approach tactics

I have a few questions:
What instructions do you use and which changes do you make when chasing or holding onto a result?
Also, it struck me that the suitedness ratings for your players in the respective positions seems to be very low, with the circles filled only by about 7/10 on average. Does this just mean that within your challenge the players you have are simply not that well tailored to the roles or are you specifically looking for attributes and skills which are different from the ones which FM considers key in these roles?

[Mr U Rosler]

The 'CHASE' version I use will generally move 1 player up the pitch, in this case DMC to AMC + increased closing down and sometimes a higher tempo or higher line depending on the formation and the quality of my defenders. (not those 2 here).

'Hold' I normally focus on having more possession (relative) so will drop the tempo to normal, remove pass into space. I will normally apply 'get stuck in' to disrupt my opponents attacking play with fouls. I wouldn't normally change the formation, perhaps 1 or 2 roles or duties, you still need outballs and to carry a your own threat.  

Re the circles, yes this is challenge/player quality related in this specific case. However, generally I find them an unnecessary, inaccurate and misleading distraction and ignore them at all times. If I'm happy a player is well enough suited for the role I have in mind then I don't 2nd guess myself based those circles.

Hope this helps.

  

[mack4ever]

I've been using a very similar formation to this, so I just have one question about your tactic (I'm not using it but I'm interested).

Against teams who are playing with attacking wingers, so an AML/R, are you finding that they're getting in behind your wing backs and causing problems? I've started dropping to a flat back 5 against teams lining up like that because otherwise they were tearing me apart almost every time.

[Mr U Rosler]

Yes, this has been bugging me a bit. In my own save I thought its most likely player quality related.

Higher quality Wingbacks could deal with them more effectively but more importantly 3 decent Centre Backs and a DM should be able to pick up and mark attackers so delivery from wide areas doesn't find its intended target often enough for it to be a weakness.

You kind of have a choice in FM, weak on the flanks or weak in the middle, by attempting to be solid everywhere you tend to either end up a little weak everywhere or have no attack.

We are probably at the point in the match engine where we could have formations which are specifically designed to counter our opponents formations. 

However this presents its own problems, there are over 10 formations I regularly see in League 2 but I only have 3 tactics slots + are we countering their  attacking threat or exploiting their  defensive weakness? Can we do both at the same time?  

AI teams chop and change a lot mid match so you need to micro manage quite extensively, perhaps we're not there yet. 

[jayahr]

1 hour ago, Mr U Rosler said:

The 'CHASE' version I use will generally move 1 player up the pitch, in this case DMC to AMC + increased closing down and sometimes a higher tempo or higher line depending on the formation and the quality of my defenders. (not those 2 here).

'Hold' I normally focus on having more possession (relative) so will drop the tempo to normal, remove pass into space. I will normally apply 'get stuck in' to disrupt my opponents attacking play with fouls. I wouldn't normally change the formation, perhaps 1 or 2 roles or duties, you still need outballs and to carry a your own threat.  

Re the circles, yes this is challenge/player quality related in this specific case. However, generally I find them an unnecessary, inaccurate and misleading distraction and ignore them at all times. If I'm happy a player is well enough suited for the role I have in mind then I don't 2nd guess myself based those circles.

Hope this helps.

  

Thank you, that does help very much

Your chase version sounds very much like the tactic I am currently using with Newcastle then (few roles still different).

Sorry for not downloading your tactics and just looking it up myself (can't as I only have time to do this *cough* at work where there is no FM ), but are you using special instructions for your players? I for instance like to use the 'get further forward' instruction on my BBMs.

And if you are looking at suitedness more than at what FM tell us, which attributes are your key ones for the BBM and DFL roles?

[enigmatic]

On 22/02/2017 at 11:48, Mr U Rosler said:

Funnily enough, i've restarted my academy challenge and in Conference South my 3 centre backs were getting run ragged so I've moved to a flat 451.

Think you need half decent centre backs before you adopt this, wouldnt recommend it non league.

Will likely go back to this as I move up the leagues.

 

Is that more to do with the back 3 (in theory more conservative than a back four with overlapping fullbacks) since there's always at least 3 at the back to outnumber the strikers and five under any sustained pressure, or to do with the 4-5-1 being much better at maintaining possession and effectively managing a higher block?

Just wondering if you could achieve similar results with the back three and dropping one of the strikers back?

[Mr U Rosler]

Thoughts on Wingbacks & Full Backs.

We all know how great attacking Fullbacks & Wingbacks can be great going forward, we also know how irritating it is to have them caught upfield with an opposing attacker running free in acres of space.

The idea of this tactic was to mitigate that downside by employing 3 Centre Backs to provide cover for our absentee Wingbacks.

Its a partial fix, player quality will have the final say most of the time, if your defenders are up to the Job in your league you can be pretty secure, if not you can still get badly exposed.

Considering a back 4 again, attack duty fullbacks in a back 4 is very risky unless you have wide midfielders in front of them, however having wide midfielders in front of them will 'block' the space your Fullbacks would like to attack which sort of defeats the point of having them on attack duty in the first place, as well as leaving you short of bodies in the middle or upfront.

What about Support Duty ?

This should be ideal ..... right...? Well actually I find support duty on Fullbacks pointless unless they have a wide player in front of them. Given the flank to themselves, 4132 for example, they operate high enough up the pitch to STILL be constantly caught out of position but they do not offer enough attacking threat for it to be worth the risk. The worst of both worlds, all of the risk, none of the reward.

Defend Duty ?

My previous attempts to employ a defend duty on Fullbacks have had hideous results with a hugely compromised attack, however the idea of a Tony Pulis type of back 4 (4 Centre Backs) has a certain primitive appeal, especially in League 2 and this is something I will be exploring more, although play through the middle can be very effective we will still need some width without resorting to a 2nd bank of wide players if possible. 

 

[Mr U Rosler]

15 minutes ago, enigmatic said:

Is that more to do with the back 3 (in theory more conservative than a back four with overlapping fullbacks) since there's always at least 3 at the back to outnumber the strikers and five under any sustained pressure, or to do with the 4-5-1 being much better at maintaining possession and effectively managing a higher block?

Just wondering if you could achieve similar results with the back three and dropping one of the strikers back?

 

With non league defenders the wider of  3 couldn't correctly determine when to engage a wide threat or to protect the middle and they didn't have the pace to recover when they made a mistake, the Wingbacks could also not get back fast enough to form a back 5.

Although I got back to back promotions non league with the 451 partly as it gives you a decent boost in possession as you suggest, I was predicted 4th the first season and scraped a League win and grabbed the last play off space the next season moving into the play offs in top form and getting through that way. Still a great achievement but I remained unconvinced by the 451.

Sure enough my League 2 campaign got off to an awful start with the 451, I then plugged this tactic set in and we recovered to a point but it was reverting back to a 4132 which finally pulled me to safety in league 2.

This formation is already fairly defensive, operating this with only 1 striker would be a step too far I think. (unless he was Messi )      

[Mr U Rosler]

25 minutes ago, jayahr said:

Thank you, that does help very much

Your chase version sounds very much like the tactic I am currently using with Newcastle then (few roles still different).

Sorry for not downloading your tactics and just looking it up myself (can't as I only have time to do this *cough* at work where there is no FM ), but are you using special instructions for your players? I for instance like to use the 'get further forward' instruction on my BBMs.

And if you are looking at suitedness more than at what FM tell us, which attributes are your key ones for the BBM and DFL roles?

Equally, I have the time to do this at work

I tend to avoid player instructions other than 'shoot less often' (on everyone) and specific closing down instructions.

BBM I leave well alone, they perform well without interference, putting 'get further forward' on them effectively turns them into CM/A's, fine if you have set your tactic to compensate for this.

DLF's I leave to their own devices apart from the obligatory 'shoot less often' and 'close down more'. I've been playing with 2 of them quite a lot and they combine well, one often comes deep whilst the other stays forward. I try not to interfere with the roles without a very strong reason.

 

[enigmatic]

I was thinking less of Messi and more of someone with raw speed to hoof clearances to (with slower buildup involving at least one midfielder having time to get into the box and on the end of a wingback cross).

I've always thought three centre backs were more a solution to the other problems with poor central defenders (the lone striker staying unmarked in the channel between them, or just needing extra bodies in the box to compensate for their unreliability at sticking to the task of marking a strike partnership). Losing one to chasing balls in the wide channel should (at least theoretically) just leave you in the same position as a back four with two dodgy centre backs. It's not as if fullbacks do much penalty area defending in FM anyway. Then again, I've rarely used them since the very early days of FM when even good sides couldn't cope with extra runners in the penalty area, because I rather like the way fullbacks and wingers/IFs tend to work together

 

[Mr U Rosler]

I operated a lone striker in the 451 (obviously) and they can work well for sure as long as they are well supported during counter attacks and during sustained build up.

Are you looking at dropping the striker to have 3 midfield?

I'm sure that could work, possession would pick up but i'd bet there would be a fair few games when you created very few chances and you could end up taking a lot of longshots. Worth a go with the right players.

[mrjazzclub]

How is this tactic doing under 17.3 ? Is it still as effective?

[Mr U Rosler]

There were no Match Engine changes in 17.3.

I'm still using it to good effect in my save, although I changed it to Standard/Flexible.

Its fairly defensive mind you, but as long as you employ the 'CHASE' version when you need a goal its fine.

[davey22]

i have played this tactic for half a season with forest in the premier league and so far i am fifth . my midfield seem to be scoring more goals than the fowards , have you tried changing the foward to complete foward rather than dlf or does this ruin the tactic

[Mr U Rosler]

I haven't tried that yet, partly because i'm doing a lower league save and I prefer more simple player roles. I get a decent return from my forwards.

No reason why altering them to another support striker role would ruin anything.

[Friki97]

Tried this one one 17.3 and have to say I've been performing well above expectations and I'm currently sitting top of the table 2 points ahead of Bayern and 9 ahead of 3rd. 

[Mr U Rosler]

13 hours ago, Friki97 said:

Tried this one one 17.3 and have to say I've been performing well above expectations and I'm currently sitting top of the table 2 points ahead of Bayern and 9 ahead of 3rd. 

I'm still running with it, on a Match Engine that's pretty tough to crack its pretty solid.

I've made a key change though, I don't like the way the 3 Centre Backs 'split' at times leaving gaping holes in your back line. The easiest solution to this is to drop one of them into the SWEEPER position believe it or not.

Sweepers under 17.3 work very well, when i'm employing the chase version I switch him up to Libero/Attack which is fun to watch.

[Tompa27]

Do you have any uploads of the new version? (standard/flexible, the sweeper, is the central defenders one on cover/one on defend etc)? So far made it up to championshop from non league with this tactic, but getting tougher up here

 

[Mr U Rosler]

48 minutes ago, Tompa27 said:

Do you have any uploads of the new version? (standard/flexible, the sweeper, is the central defenders one on cover/one on defend etc)? So far made it up to championshop from non league with this tactic, but getting tougher up here

 

With the Sweeper employed I set the 2 Centre Backs to Defend. No need for the Cover duty anymore.

I'm running with Standard/Fluid at the moment. Whilst I think Fluid is the best Team Shape setting for this tactic now, I think Counter/Standard/Control could all work well dependent on the players you have and the relative strength of your team in your division.

Probably not finished tweaking yet, when/if i'm set on something i'll upload it. I'll put a screenshot of the Sweeper version up later for reference. 

[Tompa27]

Cheers! There is not a single person my scouts have ever spotted suited for a sweeper position, but I guess you just go by regular central defenders there?

[Mr U Rosler]

Funnily enough, i'm retraining a midfielder here. The role is pretty new to me but I'm favouring a highly mobile player over a lumbering centre back.

I have a little guy, he's pants in the air but onto thru balls in a flash and uses the ball well when he has it.

A good 'big un' beats a good 'little un' of course, if you have one.

But i'd prioritize acceleration, decisions, positioning first then if their good tacklers, markers and jumpers then great.

Retraining is the way to go, but I do a lot of that anyway.

[WillyBroadband]

Hello Mr Rosler, 

I'm going to give this a go with my Arsenal side in my 3rd season, I've won 8 trophies in my first 2, playing a 4-3-3 so thought I would mix it up a bit with this tactic. 

Thinking of retraining Alex Iwobi as a DLF. He has good stats for it! Fingers crossed man. 

[DJ Sir Matthew]

hey, would you mind sharing the TI and PI so I can reproduce it in FM16. I used the previous rainmaker version but because of limited time I never got around to use it extensively. Preliminary results were quite good though, I'm curious how this version might work. Thx!

[loisvale]

How is it going with sweeper/Liberia change?

[Mr U Rosler]

19 hours ago, loisvale said:

How is it going with sweeper/Liberia change?

I knocked that on the head in the end, I noticed a couple of times AI players positioned just beyond the wider centre backs with the sweeper playing them onside and then getting a free run in on goal.

Made me laugh actually, it looked deliberate, hats off to them for being 'clever' enough to do that.

I think more than ever its about player quality and squad harmony this year, a wide range of approaches and tactics can be successful with the right players.

The days of the 'uber' tactic are now gone I think (thank god) and the best we can hope for is 'marginal gains' in a few areas to just tip the balance in our favour.

Eventually settled on a narrow 4411 with play through the middle and inverted wingbacks ensuring you flood the middle of the pitch. Doing an Academy challenge its inconsistent until my players are sufficiently developed but then we start to steam roller teams. Fun to watch which the main thing for me now.

 

 

  

 

 

[Tompa27]

Hey again!

I saw you uploaded the 4-4-1-1 with AM in the challenge thread, but without a hold version (same link for both chase and hold). But since then moved the AM down. Gonna try this on my save too now, but do you have any upload of the latest versions? 

Also, now with wide midfielders in use, do you have any specific attributes you look for on those positions like you posted on rest in the original rainmaker thread?