FM17 - The community formation experiment

[noikeee]

53 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

@noikeee - 5122 DM WB

 

So that's 3 CBs, 2 WBs, 1 DM, 2 CMs and 2 STs?

I'm slightly disappointed - I've played that formation in my current career before!

[westy8chimp]

@thels nice start... mattiello is a potential on my transfer shortlist as i too intend to play with IWB/s in one of my slots.

[Jambo98]

1 minute ago, noikeee said:

So that's 3 CBs, 2 WBs, 1 DM, 2 CMs and 2 STs?

I'm slightly disappointed - I've played that formation in my current career before!

Yup that is the one. 

Not ideal if you are used to it. Can offer you a redraw, but there is actually only one formation left so it will be 541.......... (which i think is flat back 5, flat middle 4 an 1 ST)

[noikeee]

1 minute ago, Jambo98 said:

Yup that is the one. 

Not ideal if you are used to it. Can offer you a redraw, but there is actually only one formation left so it will be 541.......... (which i think is flat back 5, flat middle 4 an 1 ST)

Nah, I'm okay with that then.  A draw's a draw.

[westy8chimp]

8 minutes ago, noikeee said:

So that's 3 CBs, 2 WBs, 1 DM, 2 CMs and 2 STs?

I'm slightly disappointed - I've played that formation in my current career before!

i thought the same... i got 4411 (2 dm) which i use already in my Bournemouth save... but with Bournemouth i have very fast wingers and strikers.. so play a deep line and direct attacking football... with Sass squad at first glance im probably going to have to find space and possession more subtly so will have completely different roles/duties mentality and shape.

what i will be doing for interests sake.. and what you will be able to do ... is compare how the different roles/duties act using the same formation. i.e. my Bournemouth average positions vs sassualo average positions ... and it should create great examples to answer all the threads about what shape and duties do ...  

[noikeee]

2 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

i thought the same... i got 4411 (2 dm) which i use already in my Bournemouth save... but with Bournemouth i have very fast wingers and strikers.. so play a deep line and direct attacking football... with Sass squad at first glance im probably going to have to find space and possession more subtly so will have completely different roles/duties mentality and shape.

what i will be doing for interests sake.. and what you will be able to do ... is compare how the different roles/duties act using the same formation. i.e. my Bournemouth average positions vs sassualo average positions ... and it should create great examples to answer all the threads about what shape and duties do ...  

Yeah I'm yet to have any idea of what kind of players will I be managing here, but I'm already thinking of a different system to the one I had back then.

Perhaps like this to fit in a Regista like others are attempting:

------DLF/A--DF/D-------
------------------------
------BWM/S--CM/A-------
WB/S------RGA/S-----WB/A
---CB/X---CB/D---CB/X---
------------------------
----------GK/D----------

Control / Fluid / Pass Into Space

Maybe this could be interesting. But I need to find out whether Sassuolo have the players for it.

[james95]

Having to think about my tactic quite a lot. Mainly trying to bridge the gap between my midfield and my striker. Also, don't think I've used a wing back in the last 3 FM's so that'll be a challenge.

[thels]

26 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

Really interesting use of the IWB there - Seems like that role really does work since the latest patch. Sadly i cant see myself using it in my setup, but interesting to note for other times  

 

I’ve played around with it a bit after the patch and it does give a lot of interesting possibilities. Just a shame it currently has to be played with the risky passes and dribble more individual instructions.

22 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

@thels nice start... mattiello is a potential on my transfer shortlist as i too intend to play with IWB/s in one of my slots.

I would look at bringing him in as a backup player, he's probably not good enough to be a regular starter. But then I've got Gazzola there who isn't that great either. I struggled a bit with finding the right transfer targets.

[paulskln]

So this is my first time doing this , i got 4-1-3-2 DM .... i am going to to try a structured formation , i think my team will be outnumbered in midfield , this is my thinking behind playing with an anchor man in the DM position to hold things tight in front of the back four.....I played one pre season friendly and beat Sunderland 2-0 after changing the width of the team to fairly narrow things tightened up and i scored both goals with quick counter attacks....Playing Alfred Duncan as an Anchor is a strange choice but he set up both goals with long balls to the DLF ....i will play a few threw pre season and see how things work out in the full season...

[Jambo98]

That formation looks like it could be an opportunity to make the most of an IWB actually.....with the obvious space in central midfield. Just a thought  

[paulskln]

9 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

That formation looks like it could be an opportunity to make the most of an IWB actually.....with the obvious space in central midfield. Just a thought  

Will give it a try , thanks for the heads up...

[thels]

Defrel has been fantastic so far, currently on 9 goals and 5 assists in 8 appearances including Europa League. It looks like Berardi will have to slot in at RM once he's back from injury

[Scrench]

442Sweeper

Most of it is a standard 442 but that one sweeper could potentially cause a lot of troubles but also allows to try out some really tricky role combinations. As i am more of a guardiola style "stick to the philosophy" guy, i would like to implement an agressive front line press and some suffocating man-marking in central midfield(although we might be short on numbers in the center).

Im thinking about going structured to create different layers of pressing and to create more space for the midfielders(with the inverted wingbacks it might become congested, i will have to pay close attention to that). As much as i want to play it out of defence, more vertical buildup could be more useful in this formation.

Regarding roles i picked two IWB a regular CB and a Libero on support. In attack it should be a 1-3 with the CB acting as the sweeper. This should protect us better from longballs to the strikers and help to secure the middle of the pitch in transition phases. The obvious sacrifices are the wings, so i opted for a more conservative wm-s and w-s to face counters on the wings better, although changing the wm-s to defensive winger is possible to offer more width without throwing away the defensive responsibilities. The central midfield is pretty standard, the goal is to have flexibility and stability.The striker pairing is still an enigma to me, i have no clear idea how to set them up. Agressive pressing and leading the line will be their main task, probably in a creator-finisher stlye(That is why i picked the F9-AF) but i'm not sure about it.

[souptical]

Well 3-1-3-1-2 DM, I didn't even know of that tactic till now, but its a new learning experience

So for a start its on a standard mentality and a very fluid team shape.
Lets go from the back the center DC, the stopper pressing the opposition, while the DM slots in his place and the other two defenders go more narrow or cover the space, while in attack the defense is really wide, pretty much covering the whole pitch.
The DM has a PI to take More Risky Passes, as I want someone to get the ball to the front if they see someone and get to the attack quickly. The wingers, well one winger and one wide midfielder have only support duties because I want them to also cover the defense when in need, but they also have the PI to Roam more often, that might cost me, but for now it has gone pretty well.  The DLP is just a regular DLP taking the balls and making passes on the players supposed to be all around him. The AM and CF are finding space and trying to get that final pass into the box or the shot as well is the TM.

The defensive line is only pushing slightly higher and I'm asking the team to be more expressive, sometimes work the ball into the box and maybe retaining possesion against the better teams.

From the transfers I got Rodrigo Ely on loan, and Valentin Stocker for 3.5M. I'm looking for what position I can maybe get another player but thats that for now.

This is probably the first time I'm analyzing how my team plays and how I should really want them to play I hope this tactic succeeds. Well atleast it did agains PSG

[Fosse]

Some of the default formations in the game are ridiculous 

[westy8chimp]

Not added PIs yet - if I do it will only be simple.. closing down more for certain players, shoot less...otherwise ill wait till season underway and make judgements.

ive used my 3 slots quite differently.

Probably using an attacking fluid formation as primary - attacking wing backs overlapping wm's. high line.

a counter tactic for tougher games and away games or when im in sticky form and need to solidify, deeper line shorter passing lower tempo.

Then what I call a 'go-to' tactic for when im losing or being just under the kosh in general - attacking, direct, high tempo and clear to flanks... using attacking wingers & IWB to fill the midfield void.

[DrPoods]

OK Jambo98. I will start one from scratch. There are certainly elements I can consider from the other one.

I have been working on one of my own at the same time. So no issue. 😄

[noikeee]

I'm going to disable player attribute masking, is this ok? Asking because I usually leave attribute masking religiously on, and rely on scouts religiously, but when I only have 2 signings + 1 loan I better make them count!

[syemo]

If there is any space still available, count me in

[cregan]

3-2-3-2 DM

"Boss, we've finished analysing the last match. Take a look at these shots on goal."

"Great! That's some mighty impressive work. We really gave those guys a pasting, didn't we?"

"Ours are on the right, boss."

"Oh. Well, that's Juve. Everyone loses to Juve, AssMan. We still managed to score a couple."

"Juve was the week before, boss. And you're right, we were on target 50% of the time, which meant scored with our only two shots on target that game."

"Quality over quantity, AssMan."

"They scored with five of their seven on target, boss, of their 19 overall. But that was Juve. This was Chievo. We only had two on target against the sodding Flying Donkeys as well, and I distinctly remember you shouting something about 'working the bloody ball into the box' most of that game. If Chievo's strikers had been able to hit the broad side of a barn we'd have conceded another five instead of losing 2-1 to a last-minute penalty."

"Their profligacy, AssMan, or our brilliant defence, eh? Eh?"

"One of our central defenders lost possession 21 times in that match, mostly in our penalty area."

"Pfft. Statistics prove nothing."

"He only touched the ball 12 times, boss. We're still running the tapes to figure out what he did the other 9 occasions; I'm assuming he borrowed a corner flag and used it like a pool cue to take the ball off the feet of his teammates when no one was looking."

"Nonsense! Why would he do that, AssMan?"

"..."

"Are... are you suggesting, AssMan, that there's something wrong with the instructions I'm giving the team?"

(It would appear that my attempt at a deep, direct, counter system is not working at all. We were dumped out of the Europa, deservedly, by Admira Wacker, and we've been dreadful the first couple of games of the league season. Next up, a tweak to probably Control-Structured, a rethink of the centre midfield triangle, and an inevitable sacking in October...)

[DrPoods]

This is the one I have been mucking around with. Quite a bit of difference to the one I was talking about in earlier posts.

I drew the 4-2-1-3 formation and, as I tend to do, I have started on the attacking front! Essentially my big worry with this formation is the isolation of the central striker given that his nearest support is on the wings and in central midfield. Even then, it gets worse because the central midfielder is on his own with two defensive midfielders behind him. I have been mucking around and feel that what I need is to make the pitch smaller so that any gaps are minimised. Also, the striker role needs to drop into midfield a bit to alleviate his isolation.

So, what I have tried to do here is have the striker dropping deep and holding up the ball. The inside forwards are to come inside and attack the backline hopefully creating a situation where there is essentially 3 attackers in and around the box when the DLF moves into the box. I don't like dribbling too much so I have the players set to dribble less in the TIs except for the wingbacks and the inside forwards who are set to dribble more by default.  Also trying to keep the play compact I have set the Regista and DMC to try and get further forward when we have the ball. I feel that being a bit more attacking is OK as we have a solid block of 6 at the back.

The midfielder should be a bit more aggressive with their passing as the risky passes PI is ticked.

With the TIs they are all set for an aggressive pressing game. The line is high with an offside trap and the team is set to press more. With the PI passing the way it is I think a fairly narrow shape will connect players and shorter passing is the go. I want there to be options but I have always had problems with long shots so I want an overlap from the wingbacks when the inside forwards cut inside and the ball to be worked into the box. I am still a bit iffy on the exploiting flanks TIs but I think they are worth a go. Given that with our numbers in midfield there may be a lot of congestion there. Having used the assman to fill a team it seems the squad is well suited to the system at the moment. The only issue being that the Regista could be a role that I won't need.

Will update as I go.

NB: I will be making a defensive style because I think the formation is also suited to a deep lying, counter attacking style. But I think I am philosophically aligned with a Zeman style of play so the attacking style sits there for now!

[Rashidi]

PKM REQUEST

I did this last year, so I will try and add this to another show on BustTheNet, my Youtube channel. 

Last year I featured some of the pkms on a show and generally shared what most of us were doing with the community. Once again I will do the same and if you are keen just add a pkm or two from one of your saved matches and I will feature them on a show. Essentially I cover your system and what it's achieving. I won't hardball the tactic, the goal is to show how possible it is to play several systems with one team with slight adjustments to the TC or PIs. So if you're keen just add your pkms to your posts where you talk about your tactic, you can edit them too and just add them in, then tag me. That way I know there is a post with a pkm waiting for me.  I will try and do one show per week. The shows end once I finish a season. I did come close to doing another season last year, but I doubt I will be able to this season as this will be my fourth save.

Oh getting the pkm is easy, just save the match once its done. Go to Documents/Sports Interactive/Matches/ (Name of game), and attach the file to your post. The shows will be short..like 10 mins

 

 

Let me know if you are keen.

 

 

[DrPoods]

I am pondering a change.

With the attacking philosophy we are getting results in friendlies but don't hold much of the ball. In the 1st leg of the Qualifying Round we looked pretty poor and I switched to control at half time with us losing 1-0.

We dominated the second half and, although it finished 1-1, we really deserved the win.

So I might go for control for the time being. The play was much, much better.

[Jambo98]

@syemo - 541 (last one left!) 

[westy8chimp]

just had time to set up tactics last night and peruse the squad... horrendous lack of pace at first viewing... and my tactic has full backs and wingers! going to have to rethink my formations again from scratch.

One look at the collective squad tells me exactly why Serie A has been on such a decline... far too many players in all the b teams... too many players on loan... not much balance... i.e. sassuolo first team squad has approximately 7000 dm/cm and 0 amc

with only 3 signings available... think id rather be in Arsene Wengers shoes right now...

[noikeee]

First impressions from my friendlies is this has started pretty well. Drew the first friendly then won 3 or 4 in a row including a 3-0 over Bayern (although they fielded a weakened side).

Lining up like this at the moment:

         DF/S         CF/A
        Defrel       Depay


         CM/A        BWM/S
        Duncan     Magnanelli

 WB/S          RGA/S         CWB/A
Peluso         Sensi        Politano

    CB/X        CB/D        CB/X
   Acerbi     Cannavaro   Letschert

                GK/D
              Consigli

Control / Very Fluid / Pass Shorter / Low Crosses

 

Only PI is goalkeeper set to "distribute to CBs" and I've got my own set piece routines.

 

Notes:

 

Transfers
Memphis Depay on loan from Man Utd is my only signing so far. He's kinda more of a winger so not a perfect fit but was too good to pass up, I think he's got the pace and attacking ability to lead my front line. I also had the signing of Maicon (Brazilian veteran international WBR) lined up but unfortunately Napoli poached him instead - am now trying to hire another Brazilian guy for the position (Felipe Mattioni) on a free. I also have everything agreed with Jonathan dos Santos for Regista but unfortunately just don't think I'll have the budget.

 

Playing philosophy
The idea overall is to try to have a more aggressive, attacking version of a 3-5-2 compared to what I tried earlier when I used to play this formation in my regular career in the Conference - I've already done the whole normal boring cautious 3-5-2 before. And anyway, with 3 CBs and a solid structure in front of them, I should have more than enough cover to be able to use some more adventurous settings.

I originally started on Fluid but was unhappy with the balance and went Very Fluid just for the sake of it, which ended up connecting nicely when I added up "pass shorter" as on Very Fluid everyone tends to be close together.

 

Possession and distribution
Originally my only TI was "pass into space" which I use regularly in my regular 4-1-4-1esque system. But on an aggressive Control mentality, and with no playmaker ahead of the Regista to calm things down in the final third, we were far too eager to try to play the final ball and wasting too much possession. I dropped it and added "pass shorter" and "play out of defence" but this was also overkill, as my defenders were just booting it up as they didn't find any super-short options. I wanted to play out of the back, and found out a better method was to stick only to "pass shorter", and have the keeper distributing to CBs instead of "play out of defence".

This works pretty nicely. My trio of CBs spreads pretty damn wide when we have the ball, so a typical passage from a goalkick will be: Consigli distributes to one of the wider CBs, he gets pressed but a diagonal line opens up to one of the MCs which he uses for a pass, then the MC if pressed passes it back to the free Regista, who now has time to organize play.

 

Politano as WBR
On my last couple of friendlies a pleasant surprise, which happened almost by accident, was how good Matteo Politano has been as right wingback, despite being completely unfamiliar in the position. A flashy winger, he gives us the technical ability that other options like teenager Pol Lirola don't possess. Crucially, and this is the accident part as I hadn't noticed it, he's left-footed. Thanks to this he kind of doubles up with some IWB-like cutting-inside runs despite been given a CWB/A role. He is poor defensively however, and has yet to learn the position at all, so I'm still trying to sign Felipe Mattioni to have a more conventional option for the position if necessary.

 

A creativity problem
The mood overall is positive however I can already see a problem in the making. It's not entirely clear how are we going to score goals and it's all rather robotic when we reach the final third, as the only creative man in the whole side is the Regista. We're relying instead, either on passing the ball around until the space opens up for a through ball to the WBs, or on flashy runs from Politano and Depay. I'm not sure this is good enough.

The obvious candidate for a more creative role is the DF/S, maybe make him a DLF/S, however my previous experiences with a 3-5-2 tell me the forwards are a bit wasted defensively so I need them to contribute as much as I can, hence a defensive forward, so I'm reluctant to get rid of that role. Very Fluid helps further to get them back, and indeed thanks to the switch to Very Fluid I've already "upgraded" my forwards roles from an inital duo of DF/D-DLF/A to DF/S-CF/A, to get them slightly further up and make them more penetrative. This seems a better balance.

"Pass Into Space" would've helped with penetration, but as I stated above, this makes us too rushed with the aggressive mentality and without a playmaker higher up (and I'm satisfied for now with the BWM/S-CM/A roles duo). I am however turning it back on, whenever I'm up against a side that tries to press us very high, leaving space behind. This was how we capitalized vs Bayern and beat them 3-0.

The creativity problem is more exacerbated vs deep buses, which I found when I played against a lower league side - we just ran into them. This was partially solved by switching to Standard + Play Wider - to exploit the space deeper and wider - but also, counter-intuitively, thanks to adding "Exploit the Flanks". Despite being outmanned on the wings, this helped us further focus on our runs from the WBs, and kill them off through crosses. This was also when I decided to add "Low Crosses" as both Depay and Defrel are short.

 

Tight marking - a bad idea
My final note, as this is getting long, is about marking and defending. On Control, you are already pretty aggressive by default, and notice I also have two stoppers so am really trying to go after players rather than completely soaking up pressure. To further concentrate on this, I originally started with "tight marking". Soon, I noticed I just had to abandon it. We've played exclusively against 4-4-2s and 4-1-2-2-1s so far, and what these systems have is one extra player in the wings compared to us. With tight/man marking, someone would always, always be free and we were pretty easy to pass around, specially when we faced that lower league side on very cautious mentality. We were being humiliated as that much weaker side easily out-passed us...

[Sanno11]

5-2-3 Narrow

This is a learning experience for me, having never used such a formation or managed a club in Serie A. I had ideas about how I wanted to make this shape work and manage it's strength and weaknesses but I have yet to fully settle on an approach and welcome any suggestions.

            

This is how we are currently set up. My idea is to try and keep the team compact in all phases of play, hence the TIs that add to the compactness and the very fluid shape. With slower build up play it allows wing backs time to take up advanced positions with a lower risk of losing position early in a transition. I want the team to be careful in possession and work the ball methodically to the forward three who can then take risks and try and create chances.  

Without the ball I want the team to press the opposition fairly aggressively as a unit and maintain a reasonably high line. I am testing the use of the offside trap and tight marking and these may be removed.

The player roles I have allocated lend themselves to this style of play, but I am still trying new things. I have my wing backs on support now, against weaker opposition I have the option to adjust to WBa or CWBa. My central midfield pairing have both been given conservative roles, staying close together and protecting the back line. My CMs has the PI to attempt more risky passes, this is with Sensi in mind. The forward's roles have changed a lot in this set up, I want two of my forwards dropping deeper, to link up with my midfield and the other forward making forward runs behind the opposition. This has been the most difficult part to set up for me and I welcome advice.

I have found that my forwards are not contributing much defensively so made the decision to prevent short GK distribution, hoping that this will at least prevent cautious teams having easy possession.

I have set up a counter formation that was used for the majority of pre-season and the early fixtures, it worked well in the away games against weaker teams, but at home we struggled and weaker teams were able to contain us. In both set ups we have lacked creativity and have found ourselves taking many long shots. The set up described above was applied after the Crotone 0 - 0.

With a medium database and only Italy loaded I struggled to find good wingback options, so paid much more than I should have for Basta.

 

[wereldbol]

aah yes, the old 4240 dm wide, i'm glad i ca... wait, what? 

all jokes aside and without looking at the sassuolo squad i'm pretty sure i can make something of this formation. think it's strengths lie in:

• good high pressing possibilities with 4 up top
• solid defensive square with the CD-CD-DM-DM
• loads of movement possible between the lines

the front four can push up, drop back and chase the channels because there's going to be quite a bit of room in front of them but also behind them and in between the different channels. i can see this working. 

think i'll set up like this:

ap(s) ss(a) am(s) if(a)

 

dm(d) reg(s)

wb(a) cd(d) cd(d) wb(s)

gk(d)

 

hoping to see loads of useful and dangerous triangles and squares when in possession, most notably:

am(s)

dm(d) reg(s)

and

ap(s) am(s)

dm(d) reg(s)

the runs of the inside forward and the shadow striker should mean i have plenty of bite up front. let's go!

[wereldbol]

ofcourse if sassuolo have no good left back but a good attacking right back (which i think is the case, that spanish juventus kid starts there doesn't he?) i can easily switch the system around to the other side

[noikeee]

11 minutes ago, wereldbol said:

ofcourse if sassuolo have no good left back but a good attacking right back (which i think is the case, that spanish juventus kid starts there doesn't he?) 

He does (Pol Lirola?) and I think he's got huge potential, I like him a lot, but on his starting attributes he has pretty average dribbling, terrible flair, so to have him as the source of width is going to be a problem IMO. Of course in your system you're gonna have a winger ahead of him, so I think you can get away with playing Lirola, particularly on a role that doesn't have "dribble more" by default.

[Jambo98]

The left back (Peluso) Is pretty good, certainly better starting point than Lirola or the Italian RB (Mazzolla? Gazzolla?). Peluso also has some good PPMs for an attacking role.

 

[noikeee]

10 minutes ago, Jambo98 said:

The left back (Peluso) Is pretty good, certainly better starting point than Lirola or the Italian RB (Mazzolla? Gazzolla?). Peluso also has some good PPMs for an attacking role.

 

Yeah I'm more likely to stick to Peluso for my LWB role, but ideally I'd like an upgrade there as well.

[JoeLapira]

I'm using Peluso as a CWB(A) and Pol Lirola as a WB(A) and as it turns out Lirola is performing better, 4 assists and a goal in the first 6 games is a great return. Played a further 2 games last night. Another win in a friendly, 4-3 over Tenerife, and an away 1-1 draw against some Austrian side in the first leg 2nd EL qualifier. Next match is the opening Serie A fixture which is where the fun really begins.

[cregan]

Peluso's done OK at ML for me, as either a regular or defensive winger on support. In that dreadful early spell, one of the few standouts. 

[Rashidi]

Thank god for Pol Lirolla, he's versatile

 

[Jambo98]

Not had much time on this, but started to play around a bit with an alternate plan, since my initial approach of keeping it narrow seemed ineffective. I think i do need width to make this shape work, even if the width itself is not how we play primarily, but used to create more space for the overload of central players. 

My next incarnation is: 

At first glance, 2 attack duty wing backs without a holding type DM seems a little niave, but i am trying something a little different defensively. With the 2 defend duties in CM, effectively we create a "box" defence as we attack / transition to attack. 4 players aways staying back, which also means that Sensi can advance beyond the CM line, be a link player to the attack and give me movement. I am trying RPM to see if i get a little more vertical movement than i was with RGA. He was getting beyond the MC's but i would like just a tad more of it. 

The front 3 i am not set on, and infact am fairly certain i have not gotten right. I need Berardi back, as i have not been able to get anything from Matri or Defrel. My initial attempts have been a support striker and at least one, currently 2 attack duty AMC's to get up and support. I am a little worried about the distribution of duties, and the fact that it is just not giving me the patterns of play that i want in the final 3rd.  I am also minded to try an AF, to be used to stretch the play and create the space for at least one of the MC's to work in. 

Lots of food for thought. The box defence and advancing fullbacks works reasonably well so far, but it remains to be seen if it will leave us just to open. below is a quick shot of us as we transition to attack to show what i am getting at:

On the transfers front, after adding Evandro first for some creativity in the AMC slot, i decided i wanted to strengthen at the back. Struggled to find a good enough fullback, so instead i decided to bring in Veltman to upgrade DC. Antei is decent but lacks a lot in the mental areas. Paulo Cannavaro probably still could have done a turn, great mentals, but his pace is gone and i play a high line. Last signing was Druissi on loan for a different option at AMC / ST. 

[thels]

@Jambo98 That's an interesting approach in midfield and it goes to show how the same formation can look a lot different depending on which roles and duties are being used. I'm a fan of Antei so far, he's able to cover for Acerbi's lack of pace.

[thels]

Minor update to highlight what impact a small change can have. My initial idea was to have a pushed up defensive line to reduce the space between midfield and defence. However, in the opening 3 fixtures, balls in behind looked a constant threat and we conceded 5 goals during that time.

20 minutes into the Serie A opener against Chievo we conceded another goal, I decided to drop the pushed up defensive line and we managed to see out the rest of the game without conceding. Since then we have only conceded 1 goal in 8 games, and that against Juventus. While we have been a bit lucky not to concede more, the change has been a positive one.

Tactically nothing has really changed since the last update. Because of our great form we went into the Juventus game with our regular approach. I decided to monitor the opening 30 minutes and then make necessary changes if needed.

The first half was even so I didn’t feel like there was any reason to do anything differently. Higuain scored a goal early into the 2nd half. It was a new scenario for us, we now had to chase a lead. I opted to turn up the mentality and shape settings. We managed to win a penalty which Berardi unfortunately missed. Overall I think we were a bit too wasteful in possession after having to push forward and for the future I’ll experiment with going more attacking by just changing roles and duties.

I uploaded a PKM for the Juventus game if you want to have a look at it @Rashidi

Juventus451.pkm

[Rashidi]

Had some issues with my skin after starting this game, so my save is pretty slow, but we are top in Group E of the Europas, and still undefeated in the league after 4 games, but we do concede a fair few. I am just trying to make this system work with 2 DMs that well, need to go up. With my wing backs giving really good width I can definitely think of a double pronged attack. My only issue is winning the second ball. 4 games in and my striker who has bagged 9 goals in 9 appearances is already attracting interest from Spanish clubs. The lil twat wants to leave!  I will do a bit more on the show for the game once I get at least one other pkm from someone.

 

Thanks @thels  I have already downloaded it

 

 

 

[westy8chimp]

Business concluded.

Sakho  .. with Berardi out I find the attack lacked pace and finishing. One of my tactic slots relies on direct attacks so needed someone to fit the bill

Depay ... adds some vital versatility for my wing slots or utility striker/amc and has ability to score goals from midfield

Tavernier ... a player I have a soft spot for.. marauding right back who can also play right wing, and can add 5 or 6 goals from free kicks which always helps stealing a few points

Tactics I've now tweaked having reviewed the squad. These are my 3 slots... a standard, flexible slower paced build up... a fluid counter and a structured attacking formation

 

 

 

EDIT ... wont update every game... but was particularly please with my opener... 4-1 win but the best part was my trusty right hand man Tavernier... goal assist and man of the match debut ...

average positions... you can probably see I have a lot of PI to get further forward (dms, wms and iwb/wb) defend with 8 in my half attack with 8 in their half.

 

[Fola]

Sorry if I have missed the sign up but please could I join? Love this idea.

[cregan]

3-2-3-2 DM

A third of the way through the season, and a 4-0 drubbing of Cagliari - third win of the season - means we're out of the relegation zone and up to the lofty heights of 14th (from 18th, of which we're now two points clear). Berardi's back to fitness, which has helped, though the two matches before beating Cagliari were a drab draw with Torino and an excruciatingly awful 0-0 with Pescara, while our only other two wins have been against the two bottom sides, Crotone and Palermo, and everyone's beaten them (Palermo have only scored 5 goals so far this season).

In terms of the system, I've shifted to Control/Structured, with Close Down More, Shorter Passing and Low Crosses. The back four hasn't changed - a GK and two CD(d) either side of a BPD(c). The two DMs are now an RPM and a BWM(s) - the RPM seems to give Sensi more movement than an RGA (even with "get further forward" PI for the latter) and even on support, the BWM in the shape of Duncan does the defensive busywork well. Across the midfield stratum it's now a DW(s) on the left (Peluso, who's having a storming season other than a red card that probably cost us three points against lowly Bologna), a CM(a) with Roam From Position (generally Missiroli now he's back to fitness), and Politano as a W(s) on the right (switching to W(a) if I drop to Counter). Up front, after trying all manner of support/attack combos in terms of roles and players and despairing at our lack of height, it's currently Henriquez as DF(s) on the left and Berardi as CF(a) on the right.

The shape is good overall; we're not getting bunched up or leaving huge, unexpected gaps, though I wish it was easier to link the two strikers to everyone else. Switching down from passing long/fast has definitely helped cut out pointless turnovers of possession. We're not getting slaughtered down the flanks, and despite playing Structured there seems to be enough roaming and flexibility in there to give us a little bit of style.

Against teams playing withdrawn formations like 3-4-3 DM Wide. we seem to do particularly well; that midfield triangle has plenty of time and space to pick its passes. Against teams playing with a crowded centre on the midfield stratum (4-1-3-2 Narrow etc.), we seem to do poorly regardless of what - if anything - I try to do to mix it up. But Italian sides seem to switch formations so freely that it's hard to keep up.

Still, I haven't been sacked yet, despite media speculation, and we're now a place above AC Milan, whose manager is apparently even worse than me. 

[Jambo98]

Great to read so many write ups, ideas and analysis already Great stuff! 

I am still really in the "dabbling" stage. I tend to start one attempt at this and just play around a lot, getting to know the players and my allocated formation, before then starting a more "serious" attempt from scratch.  But for the moment, i have had to cycle through quite a few thoughts and ideas to get something which is effective, and gives me some balance. 

I am still sticking to my vision of Sensi as the creative force who gets forward, and his 2 midfield generals infront of him sit in and break things up (also helps take advange of the myriad of DM's that the squad has!). Also still sticking to using the full backs in quite an attacking sense to give width, and defending with the "Box" described a few posts above.  At the time of posting before, i had not settled on how i could see the front 3 working, and i am still not 100% but at the moment i have an AF, who i use to stretch the play vertically and hopefully get onto some through passes, with Berardi now back he is capable of this, has pretty good speed and off the ball. Behind, at the moment i have revered to 2 x vanilla AM - one with support, the other with attack. I just find that i can customise that role a lot more and doesnt come with many hard coded instructions, or the playmaker type "attract the ball" coding. 

Stuck to standard mentality, but i have come away from Very Fluid which i normally stick to. With this formation, i felt the players were too congested from middle to front. I also feel that in this setup, i am more comfortable that most of my players are somewhat one dimensional, in that it is less vital to involve them in multiple "phases". The wingbacks are the obvious exception, as is Sensi, but the others are quite defined in terms of which phases i see them as responsible for. I have moved to "Structured" on that basis, but have offset it by adding both "Roam from positions" and "Be more expressive" as TI (both might be overkill, time will tell). 

I have also dropped the high line. We were just getting murdered over the top / in behind. We dont have the players to play a true high press. I still want to press but moved back to a more sensible standard Dline. I am also experimenting with Veltman as a cover duty to help further with the balls over the top issue. 

Attacking TI wise, again i felt some changes needed. I have added "Play wider" and "exploit the middle" - this backs up my plan of using the wing backs to stretch the opposition, but not necessarily to use them always as the key attacking outlet. If they can create the space, then my AM's can hopefully be the ones using it. Finally, with the AF now in place i am trying out "hit early crosses" - With the wingbacks being somewhat isolated when they get the ball wide, this makes sense and has worked ok so far. 

From a recent match with this setup, average positions without the ball show, as you would expect, basically the formation (since that is our defensive shape). 

With the ball, it morphs into a sort of 2 5 2 1 shape, with the wingbacks advanged, the 2 MCs holding station. Ideally i would like Sensi 10 yards further forward,  but it might not be possible with the role without him leaning a PPM or two. The striker looks somewhat isolated, but i am not worried about that. he is an AF - he is might to be advanced. Berardi is not exactly setting the world on fire yet but hopefully we can start to feed him some better chances. 

Of more concern in this particular match was the shot map - Showing we are long shot happy.  A common problem, and not helped by our opponents playing a very defensive 34021 (3 x DC, WB and 2 x DM) which meant we struggled to get through. I might look at dropping the tempo a tick to encourage us not to rush the shots, but this was not the perfect game to judge. 

[Jambo98]

Well, we officially have more people signed up than formations available  (Although i suspect some of the 50 (!!) who have had formations allocated will fall by the wayside and never post. 

As we have someone else now wanting to join in, and hopefully more will in the coming days etc, i will just start from scratch with all formations available. Means we will have 2 people working with the same formation, but i think that is not an issue?

 

So...

@Fola - 31312 DM 

[apchivers]

5-2-2-0 DM

So this formation is definitely a new one for me to try out! I've never gone strikerless before and a flat back 5 with two defensive midfielders is something I've never even thought of trying before.

My first concern is how I'm going to score goals. I've gone with a shadow striker to try and put pressure on the opposition defence and be a presence in the box. On the flanks, the wide midfielders have PIs to sit narrower and cut inside to hopefully allow the wingbacks space to overlap and support the attack. I'm hoping this will create some sort of 3-4-3 in attack and 5-4-1 in defence.

Sensi will be the creator in the team and new signing Samba Sow will sit next to him. Sow has PPMs of run with ball through centre and gets into opposition area, which will hopefully add some support to the attack. In defence, a stopper is flanked by two 'standard' centre backs. This may change to a pair of stoppers and a cover/defender duty centre back if the opponent plays with two strikers.

I've gone with standard mentality to start with and fluid team shape to try and make the team more compact. For team instructions, I'm using work ball into box to try to reduce long shots and also play out of defence to build up attacks through the defensive midfielders.

So far results haven't been great; two 0-1 losses to Milan and Genoa followed by a 1-1 draw with Pescara. In the Europa league we beat Fudbalski Klub Čukarički Stankom 5-1 on aggregate, but then lost 2-0 on aggregate to Heracles in the playoffs. I'll update again after another 10 games or so.

 

[noikeee]

8 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

Of more concern in this particular match was the shot map - Showing we are long shot happy.  A common problem, and not helped by our opponents playing a very defensive 34021 (3 x DC, WB and 2 x DM) which meant we struggled to get through. I might look at dropping the tempo a tick to encourage us not to rush the shots, but this was not the perfect game to judge. 

I'm often having a bit of the same issue, I think it's not helped by a couple players having the "shoots from distance" PPM (from memory I've got Depay and at least one of the midfielders), and because I don't have any advanced playmaker other than Sensi as DM (like you, but I'm giving him a Regista role instead of RPM), which could've helped to slow the game down and focus away from these more direct decisions in the final third. You could try dropping the mentality to Standard to try to make them less rushed / make less risky decisions.

[noikeee]

1 hour ago, apchivers said:

5-2-2-0 DM

This is such a rubbish formation.  I've gone strikerless before but that one just doesn't seem to make much sense for a strikerless system. I don't envy your position in this challenge...

[westy8chimp]

22 minutes ago, noikeee said:

This is such a rubbish formation.  I've gone strikerless before but that one just doesn't seem to make much sense for a strikerless system. I don't envy your position in this challenge...

it does look like a difficult challenge. The only caveat Id have is that counter attacking systems are perhaps, dare I say it, slightly overpowered in FM17 ... and this lends itself perfect to that... as when automatically triggered that can easily turn into a 3-5 man attack. Lacks pace though so will still struggle.. its going to be rather dull watching and difficult to score lots of goals. . @apchivers will be interested in how your season turns out. Good luck...

noikee... I also signed depay.. im not even trying to harness him.. let the long shots fly... I lost my playoff 1st leg  ...2-1 ... in the return leg depay scored 4 in the first 50 mins ... 3 from 25 yards  as WG (ML) Attack.

[Fola]

10 hours ago, Jambo98 said:

So...

@Fola - 31312 DM 

Brill! Will get this started up over the weekend and update.

[noikeee]

1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

noikee... I also signed depay.. im not even trying to harness him.. let the long shots fly... I lost my playoff 1st leg  ...2-1 ... in the return leg depay scored 4 in the first 50 mins ... 3 from 25 yards  as WG (ML) Attack.

I've had Defrel score one from a ridiculous angle just outside the box, Van Basten-esque.

The weird thing is I'm getting loads of long shots, but they don't feel stupidly wasted like sometimes in FM where all of them get blocked. I'm getting quite a few on target! My guess is my 2 strikers occupy the defence which opens up a clearer path for my midfielders to shoot.