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Armistice

Another thread about Team Shape

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Alright so I can finally understand that Mentality = Risk, so basically a lower mentality, lower risk in passing, tackling or forward runs. It also affects how deep the team sits/defends, lower tempo and width (correct me if I am wrong). So if you are trailling behind, especially a team that sits deep and counters, increasing mentality will increase your players potency in going forward, wider and playing a more risky passing game, but doesn't necesaarily mean that you can score goals if there is no space to exploit (again please correct me if I am wrong).

Now, getting this out of way, we have Team Shape that can go from Highly Structured to Very Fluid. This is where the confusion kicks in. I understand Team Shape affects depth and how involved the players are in the transitions, also Creative Freedom, but I am not sure how much it affects the duty distribution.

 

Let's take this specific case. Say we've got Standard Mentality which sets the passing risk at 50-50 and we've got the striker on Attack duty. How much is the duty going to take effect in his play considering that we move from Structured to Fluid (or more extreme cases from Highly Structured to Very Fluid)? How is his movement affected by the Team Shape (of course considering the same role in both cases). What if the mentality is set to Counter?

I've read somewhere that people with Very Fluid systems tend to choose more attacking roles than those with Highly Structured, is it correct or am I wrong and if it is, why?

 

And most important, how does Team Shape affect duties of those in deeper areas like fullbacks or central midfielders (CM-A on HS compared with VF or (FB-S on HS compared with VF), especially in different mentalities?

Edited by Armistice

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It's a bit of a simplistic view but I tend to think that very structured 'exaggerates' player mentality so an advanced forward with an attack duty wil be very aggressive whereas on a very fluid setting their mentality is 'reduced' in the sense that defenders have a slightly higher mentality so they're a little bit more aggressive.

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I'm glad you've asked the question and you've worded it much better than I would have. 

I keep hearing 'change to structured to free up more space' because very fluid means lots of players moving into attack during transition phase? Not sure if I've understood that right... With so many factors and variations I've struggled to take every bit in. Hopefully someone can explain exactly how it works and how they correlate 

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Very Fluid = whole team is expected to attack as a unit and defend as a unit so in theory less space as it becomes a compact 11 players moving forward and backwards fluidly. (personally I have more support duties and basic roles i.e. fb, cb, wm, cm, cf when I play fluidly)

Highly Structured = Defenders defend, midfielders support and attackers attack. More space because there are clear lines/gaps between players. Here if I want a CM to attack I need to give him attack duty and or PIs such as get further forward. (I tend to have more speciality roles ... i.e. playmakers, target men etc) I think duties become more important because you can then use an attack duty on full back to bring him out of that 'defenders defend' mentality.

I get confused between structured and fluid... because in essence they are the same to me... where very fluid and highly structured treat each unit as a group ... fluid/structured split full backs from centre backs and wingers from central midfielders ... so cbs defend, full backs support, cms support and wingers attack etc.

What is flexible??

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Flexible - Standard is bang in the middle so basically the baseline for shape and mentality (risk)..... The more fluidity = more universal and compact/less space (incl. more creativity) and more structured = more role based and large gap between mentalities/more space....... The same goes for Mentality = Risk taking.... The more attacking the more risk you take and opposite if you go lower.....

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I'm playing a Dafuge Challenge at the moment and I was going to post a thread about Shape, because I had a similar question. I'm playing with a Defensive Mentality for lower risk and width, a slightly higher D.Line because I have an above average defence in terms of Accelaration/Pace and a Fluid Team Shape for the compactness. 

If I have understood the concept of Team Shape correctly, Fluid and Very Fluid Shapes encourage creative freedom and roaming from the original positions. Since I want my side to defend with compactness, force a mistake and hit on the counter, I gave the shouts "Be More Disciplined" and "Stick to Positions". 

Does that mean that I have the compactness of Fluid shapes without the "side effects" of creativity and roaming? It seams to be working for the time being, but I want to know why. Here are my shouts: (My formation is a traditional 4-4-2)

XGcCr4k.png

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Personally I'm a simple sort of chap, so I try to keep things simple.

For me, Team Shape is about space and creative freedom.  So Very Fluid makes your team play more compactly (front to back) and at the same time increases their creative freedom.  Highly Structured is the opposite, and each change through Team Shape is a step along the path.

You can get into all sorts of (very valid) discussions concerning transitions, player mentality, movement, player roles & duties and so on, and if you want to know more about that then you need to head to Rashidi's YouTube channel (Bustthenet).  You'll never learn more about the game if you do.  It'll help your understanding of exactly how from a technical point of view it affects space and creative freedom, and you'll see practical examples of it in action.

It can also be helpful to look at the player mentality bar in the Player Instructions screen for each role and duty.  Set a Team Shape, look at the bar.  Now change Team Shape and look again at how the bar has moved (or not as the case may be).  That can give you a rough idea of how attack minded (or not) each player role and duty will be, and thus what happens to the space they use and the creative freedom they apply.

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The simplest way I can put it is:

  • The structured side your telling your deepest players to play safer and your advanced players to be a bit riskier.  Your also restricting freedom and telling them to focus on the job given them (role + duty).  A DL will start off safer than the selected mentality and if given defend duty would be even safer but if given an attack duty will have a big increase in mentality.
  • The fluid side your telling your deepest players to play a bit riskier and your advanced players to be a bit safer.  Your giving more freedom and allowing them to deviate from the job given them (role + duty).  A DL will start off closer to the selected mentality and if given a defend duty would be slightly safer and if given an attack duty would be slightly riskier.
  • Flexible is in the middle of this, deeper players will be a bit safer, advanced players a bit riskier.  Players will do the job given them but have some freedom.

Trying to go deeper and find out if X position on Y duty is riskier than Z position on U duty won't really help you, judge the play by what you see on the field.  Just be aware of the above and you should be fine.  It can help explain why a AML on attack duty when playing Very Structured on Control rarely tracks back to help defensively or get involved in transitions.  If he was in ML his starting mentality would be slightly lower due to his position in the formation and still gets that focus on his role+duty but still would be a small change compared to the teams mentality and his duty.

Edited by summatsupeer

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Individual player mentalities for every role, duty, position, mentality and shape. Sliders were divided into 20 equal parts, where '1' = highly defensive and '20' = highly offensive.  Duty and team mentality are very important. 

Shape.jpg

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 i have the same question as the OP but i've chosen different approach so would like to know from more knowlegable people how does it influence my team.

when i setup the team i always go with standard mentality and the other thing structured as that is the middle ground and starting point for majority of matches.

 

if i play against a bit stronger opposition where i am on odds to lose i do the following:

- drop the defensive line, drop pressing and go for more direct passing in order to get deeper and try and hit the opposition on counter. usually my formation changes to a one striker formation and a DM to 4-1-4-1 so i am compact and have bodies behind the ball

if i play against a  weaker opposition where i am expected to win:

- push higher the d-line, go more pressing, man marking and slower buildup - formation might change again to try and use my players to the best or exploit the opposition weakness

 

Now, how does that approach really translates to the game? how would it compare to dropping the mentality from standard to counter/defensive?

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2 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

Individual player mentalities for every role, duty, position, mentality and shape. Sliders were divided into 20 equal parts, where '1' = highly defensive and '20' = highly offensive.  Duty and team mentality are very important. 

Shape.jpg

the table is great but at the same time... hard to understand the impact. What is the difference between a goalkeeper with a value of 1 (contain, defend, high struc.) and a goalkeeper with value of 20 (overload, attack, very fluid)?

The thing I take from this table, in theory, backs up something I usually do anyway. If I want to overload I usually switch to highly structured, with CBs still on Defend duty, and 3/4 midfielders set to attack. this means my cbs don't get in the way and don't rush forward... but my midfield and attack are on overload... with very fluid and overload the team is too attacking and you just turn a 2-0 scoreline into 4/5-0

 

my baseline tactic is 4231 standard, flexible = 103 on your chart. Where Overload and V Fluid = 220 but it's plenty attacking enough for me :) 

GK Defend - 5

WB Attack - 13

CB Defend - 5

CB Defend - 5

FB Support - 9

DLP Defend - 6

BBM Support - 10

IF Support - 10

AP Support - 10

Wing Attack - 14

DLF Attack - 16

Edited by westy8chimp

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3 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

Individual player mentalities for every role, duty, position, mentality and shape. Sliders were divided into 20 equal parts, where '1' = highly defensive and '20' = highly offensive.  Duty and team mentality are very important. 

Shape.jpg


This is pretty nice, though naturally players who haven't been there before the sliders were taken out can't relate. Out of interest, is this based on the visual cue (the mentality bar) displayed in the player's instructions? It looks like it, and it was the first thing I enquired. It's exaggerating things and isn't comparable to actually slider settings (under the hood). With such settings, gaps going basically from 1-20 across the team on more structured, you'd have completely incoherent play as picking structured in particular would be akin to telling the defenders to "shut up shop" (mentality 1) and the attacking players to "smash them" (highish). Confused the hell out of me, and I attributed decisions to it when under the hood I was told in that regard, not hugely much had changed (confirmation bias of sorts). The entire shape thingie is based in half on community theorems of old and they required teams to have reasonably tight mentality bands rather than ranges of 1- 20, or else... incoherent play. Which is also why some saw horrible football and lots of holes in between strata (classic slider tweakers), others less so. I remember on my first iteration I had put two centre mids on super low mentality and they would constantly pass no-risk short balls between them, never much moving the ball forward, whilst I didn't intent the actually team to be defensive, just having two "defensive mids" (so having "defensive mentalities" seemed plausible, in fact the SI positional presets encourages similar). Glad those days are gone, either way. You could make teams behave like muppets who've never kicked a ball, LMAO. :D

Btw, I expect to see team shape (renamed thrice already every since inception) to be taken out  in future editions or at least reworked. For the record, ever since it was slightly reworked for FM 2016 it might actually have a more pronounced effect (in terms of positioning/transitioning) but I never really much change it, ever. I'm mostly a strict guy, btw, based on the low creative freedom given to players. Keep it simple, stupid.

Edited by Svenc

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22 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

I'm glad you've asked the question and you've worded it much better than I would have. 

I keep hearing 'change to structured to free up more space' because very fluid means lots of players moving into attack during transition phase? Not sure if I've understood that right... With so many factors and variations I've struggled to take every bit in. Hopefully someone can explain exactly how it works and how they correlate 

I did a whole video of this explaining the co-relation between mentality/shape  roles and duties and how it affects everything. Its called the Dark Arts of Attacking Football. I doubt its going to be reworked much or taken out in the near future. SI seem to be happy with how its working, and as a matter of fact so am I. Its a lot more intuitive now.

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19 hours ago, GreenTriangle said:

Individual player mentalities for every role, duty, position, mentality and shape. Sliders were divided into 20 equal parts, where '1' = highly defensive and '20' = highly offensive.  Duty and team mentality are very important. 

Shape.jpg

This is interesting. To be clear, are you taking this from FM2017, or the last FM version with sliders?

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24 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I did a whole video of this explaining the co-relation between mentality/shape  roles and duties and how it affects everything. Its called the Dark Arts of Attacking Football. I doubt its going to be reworked much or taken out in the near future. SI seem to be happy with how its working, and as a matter of fact so am I. Its a lot more intuitive now.

Ok I will be sure to watch it. I have found many of your videos interesting and work (as you have proven), but when I try and put something into practice with Bolton it falls flat on its face.

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THe thing about shape is this, there is more distinction on structured shape when it comes to duties than on fluid shapes. Basically this affects transitions. If you are on fluid shape, there will be little distinction in mentality for the same duties. There will be distinction between different duties, but the spread won't be as much as it would be on structured. I hope that makes sense. Its like this...you're playing on fluid, the guys on the same duty all think the same way, when you are playing on structured, there is more distinction between support and attack duties. 

What some of you won't know is that there is tipping point in mentalities.  A players "performance could go from "high risk" to "medium risk" between 14-15 in Mentality, which is why we are still seeing a "sweet spot".

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2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I did a whole video of this explaining the co-relation between mentality/shape  roles and duties and how it affects everything. Its called the Dark Arts of Attacking Football. I doubt its going to be reworked much or taken out in the near future. SI seem to be happy with how its working, and as a matter of fact so am I. Its a lot more intuitive now.


Mixing two completely different things together (general level of creative freedom, i.e. playing controlled football to plan vs allowing players to express themselves) --  plus positionally compactness back to front, that's something I'd personally expect to see addressed in the future. That's two different things. Arguably it also showed (and still shows in the in-game text in parts) that the mentality theorems behind half of it weren't of SI's doing, and at the core lay an awkward attempt at shoe-horning real world football theories into the game's limited mechanics, but that's another topic all together. :D I'm a bit biased on this as I think it's also one of the more convulted, overcomplicating things in the game, and such threads prove it, but that's always been my stance [had a few PMs with Cleon last year I think who thinks likewise, but that's also parts preference and different styles of play].

Prior to FM 2016 in particular, the compactness part was pretty darn minimal -- except, arguably for balanced, where duty determined, which is why it's probably been adopted to all shapes/philosophies/fluidities since. I think you pretty much ignored it prior to FM2016 too AFAIR. Gonna watch your vids on this... From AI too I was always under the impression that they mainly base their pick here based on the flamboyancy attribute and such given in the db (based on research guidelines leaked). Their match reading / analysis ability will always be limited anyhow, it's AI. Sorry if that didn't make much sense for somebody who isn't aware of the slider conundrums of editions of yore. :D

 

edit: I think for demonstration purposes you make this out  more rigid than it is in the vid (which is nicely done!). Just because you are playing structured (like me, most of the time) doesn't mean advanced players are going to be isolated by default. Whilst it is easier to create overlaps on more fluid setups and the sorts, it primarily still depends on the jobs assigned to players whether they end up being isolated or whether they aren't -- which is down to the underlying mechanics, as it is roles that govern forward runs in the first place. A Defensive Forward / Defend won't make that run, an Advanced Forward is an altogether different beast hanging on the shoulder on the last defender on very fluid likewise, and a Complete Wing Back will bomb forward rather sooner than later to support on any shape. It still has a purpose though same as you can gain an extra bit out of here ever since the overhaul -- I know I'd get ripped to pieces if I played you online rather than AI managers, Rash. :D For a newcomer say or somebody who'd prefer to keep it simple, I'd always advice to focus on roles and duties primarily absolutely first. If you have those sussed, you can't go wrong. :-)

Edited by Svenc

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40 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

This is interesting. To be clear, are you taking this from FM2017, or the last FM version with sliders?

I'm almost positive it isn't the last version with sliders, playmaker roles had lower mentality and higher creative freedom compared to other roles with the same duty.  BBM-S had slightly lower mentality and higher creative freedom compared to a CM-S.

I think some assumptions have been made that those sliders in the PI are 100% accurate which I doubt.

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8 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

I think some assumptions have been made that those sliders in the PI are 100% accurate which I doubt.

This has always been one of my concerns.

Particularly since the positions on the tactics creator screen are just a visual representation and often not actually reflected in changed to mentality.

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Is it just me who checks the individual mentality settings of players in the game when I change shape or roles? You can visually see how those changes affect the players mentality 

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1 hour ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Is it just me who checks the individual mentality settings of players in the game when I change shape or roles? You can visually see how those changes affect the players mentality 

I do religiously but the challenge is analysing the effect on the whole team. Given that you Team Shape effects everyone, that's all 11 players and say you're considering 3/4 options for mentality & shape, that's 33-44 players to check. It's a lot to remember.

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2 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I do religiously but the challenge is analysing the effect on the whole team. Given that you Team Shape effects everyone, that's all 11 players and say you're considering 3/4 options for mentality & shape, that's 33-44 players to check. It's a lot to remember.

I get that. I know things have changed, but isn't the simple answer that the more fluid a shape the closer to overall mentality everyones individual mentality is, and with more structured shapes the more individual players deviate from it. For me that is a simple enough way of thinking about it that its pretty simple to have a decent picture of how its affecting everyone. 

Unless of course the mentalities changes across different roles in different shapes.. is that true? So for instance I've found that a deep lying forward on attack duty will have a similar mentality to an attacking forward (maybe even a poacher).. now whether this isn't true on different shapes I'm not sure.

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16 minutes ago, johnnyyakuza78 said:

I get that. I know things have changed, but isn't the simple answer that the more fluid a shape the closer to overall mentality everyones individual mentality is, and with more structured shapes the more individual players deviate from it. For me that is a simple enough way of thinking about it that its pretty simple to have a decent picture of how its affecting everyone. 

Unless of course the mentalities changes across different roles in different shapes.. is that true? So for instance I've found that a deep lying forward on attack duty will have a similar mentality to an attacking forward (maybe even a poacher).. now whether this isn't true on different shapes I'm not sure.

Agree 100%. My point is that having such a vague visual slider tucked away in the PI screen isn't an effective way to analyse the how a particular change is effecting your overall system.

An example of something I wondered lately is how does individual mentality differ if I'm considering a DR or WBR, or a DMC or MC. You can see from the chart, there's no difference between the DR and WBR but - in some Team Shapes - there's a difference between DMC and MC.

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54 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Agree 100%. My point is that having such a vague visual slider tucked away in the PI screen isn't an effective way to analyse the how a particular change is effecting your overall system.

An example of something I wondered lately is how does individual mentality differ if I'm considering a DR or WBR, or a DMC or MC. You can see from the chart, there's no difference between the DR and WBR but - in some Team Shapes - there's a difference between DMC and MC.

DR to WBR mentality is the same... but is it inferred that their starting position is slightly more attack minded for the WBR (in DR slot) than a normal Fullback (in DR slot)

Above I showed my base line tactic and the scores the roles get according to the chart ... BBM gets 10 points on standard flexible so does my inside forward... but then the position/role itself must come into it as well as just duty/mentality??

Also it's just a value... what does it translate to ... what is the difference between a GK who has mentality 1 or mentality 20? Whats the difference between a poacher on 10 and 20 (given the nature of the role he should always be on the shoulder of last defender... so at 10 he's on the shoulder... on 20 does he go and wait in the goal and be offside every time??...no!)

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5 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

I'm almost positive it isn't the last version with sliders, playmaker roles had lower mentality and higher creative freedom compared to other roles with the same duty.  BBM-S had slightly lower mentality and higher creative freedom compared to a CM-S.

I think some assumptions have been made that those sliders in the PI are 100% accurate which I doubt.

You ar right roles and duties get tweaked every season, so I doubt SI is ever going to give you one that categorically states what the whole team will look like when all these changes are made graphically.  I am not inferring that @summatsupeer is the one that inspired me to write the next few paras, its just a personal observation and not directed to anyone in particular. It just brings back memories.

 

Everything is now inter-connected, and SI want to do away with that kind of complexity because people are going to return to the same discussions we were having 20 years ago...

"so whats the difference between a defender on mentality 5 and mentality 6. So why does he take so much more risk, I only changed him by one notch , for god's sake. "

Back in those days I used to tell people its only a risk barometer. If a player is higher he takes more risk, and this is reflected by his positioning, his runs, his passes, his tackles, his visits to the doctor, his calls to his grandma and his poop times. I remember those discussions well enough...and won't be wanting to be a part of them now. All we need to know and should care about is treat it like "risk". Thats all, the harder you try the worse it gets. When you look at shape, treat it like "how many players are gonna hold their hands together and sing Kumbaya".

Keep things simple, the moment we get into trying to nail specifics down....everyone is going to start chasing their own tails. 

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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

You ar right roles and duties get tweaked every season, so I doubt SI is ever going to give you one that categorically states what the whole team will look like when all these changes are made graphically.  I am not inferring that @summatsupeer is the one that inspired me to write the next few paras, its just a personal observation and not directed to anyone in particular. It just brings back memories.

 

Everything is now inter-connected, and SI want to do away with that kind of complexity because people are going to return to the same discussions we were having 20 years ago...

"so whats the difference between a defender on mentality 5 and mentality 6. So why does he take so much more risk, I only changed him by one notch , for god's sake. "

Back in those days I used to tell people its only a risk barometer. If a player is higher he takes more risk, and this is reflected by his positioning, his runs, his passes, his tackles, his visits to the doctor, his calls to his grandma and his poop times. I remember those discussions well enough...and won't be wanting to be a part of them now. All we need to know and should care about is treat it like "risk". Thats all, the harder you try the worse it gets. When you look at shape, treat it like "how many players are gonna hold their hands together and sing Kumbaya".

Keep things simple, the moment we get into trying to nail specifics down....everyone is going to start chasing their own tails. 

If I take too little I have hardly any chances. If I take a little more I'm punished so harshly and heavily on the counter attack now. Didn't feel so aggressive on FM15, not sure if 16 was the same? What I'm having trouble understanding is what the percieved perfect balance is because it all links together before the whistle is blown. Having says that, how can there be a perfect balance when there are so many factors to consider? How does anyone manage to consider all the factors on what effect they have on every result? Tactic options are what I am trying to focus on but nothing is working for me at Bolton. I've looked at shape, mentality, team and player instructions, player traits, player ability, even considered club statue, etc. The list is endless. So what might be a good setup for one person, could be hideous for someone else... 

OR... Am I missing something completely obvious and in fact, there is a sensible approach that everyone should take when first starting out at a new team... A 'do's and dont's' for example? An idiots guide. 

Apologies if I've come a little of subject on this thread... My brain does tend to divert and ramble at times... 

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10 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

If I take too little I have hardly any chances. If I take a little more I'm punished so harshly and heavily on the counter attack now. Didn't feel so aggressive on FM15, not sure if 16 was the same? What I'm having trouble understanding is what the percieved perfect balance is because it all links together before the whistle is blown. Having says that, how can there be a perfect balance when there are so many factors to consider? How does anyone manage to consider all the factors on what effect they have on every result? Tactic options are what I am trying to focus on but nothing is working for me at Bolton. I've looked at shape, mentality, team and player instructions, player traits, player ability, even considered club statue, etc. The list is endless. So what might be a good setup for one person, could be hideous for someone else... 

OR... Am I missing something completely obvious and in fact, there is a sensible approach that everyone should take when first starting out at a new team... A 'do's and dont's' for example? An idiots guide. 

Apologies if I've come a little of subject on this thread... My brain does tend to divert and ramble at times... 

Does perfect tactical balance really exist IRL? Managers are constantly tweaking small details here and there trying to get the most in each game. Sometimes that is successful, other times it is not. There is no magical set of instructions in FM anymore that will lead you to success. 

There are plenty of tactical guides at this point. Just read through them.

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50 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

If I take too little I have hardly any chances. If I take a little more I'm punished so harshly and heavily on the counter attack now. Didn't feel so aggressive on FM15, not sure if 16 was the same? What I'm having trouble understanding is what the percieved perfect balance is because it all links together before the whistle is blown. Having says that, how can there be a perfect balance when there are so many factors to consider? How does anyone manage to consider all the factors on what effect they have on every result? Tactic options are what I am trying to focus on but nothing is working for me at Bolton. I've looked at shape, mentality, team and player instructions, player traits, player ability, even considered club statue, etc. The list is endless. So what might be a good setup for one person, could be hideous for someone else... 

OR... Am I missing something completely obvious and in fact, there is a sensible approach that everyone should take when first starting out at a new team... A 'do's and dont's' for example? An idiots guide. 

Apologies if I've come a little of subject on this thread... My brain does tend to divert and ramble at times... 

I think most of the 'nearly there' managers have this problem (that's what I like to think). While some of my tactics were decent, they always left me frustrated because I was not getting the results I really thought I should have. And I also believed there must be something that I am missing, after reading, watching so much staff of the better guys on this forum. I can't cllick it. And when I can't click it, I lose motivation quick. And I stop pursuing answers. But that's another story. Maybe we overreact and overthink the whole thing? Maybe we should keep it simple?

Edited by Armistice

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1 hour ago, yonko said:

Does perfect tactical balance really exist IRL? Managers are constantly tweaking small details here and there trying to get the most in each game. Sometimes that is successful, other times it is not. There is no magical set of instructions in FM anymore that will lead you to success. 

There are plenty of tactical guides at this point. Just read through them.

But this isn't real life...plus constant tinkering doesn't help (not on FM I'm lead to believe anyway). 

I found a nice balance on FM15, a 4231 that at times a day deeper and countered, sometimes I'd push the back line up and try to control the match. I knew when and how to affect the match in a positive way back then. Now however I feel there's so much going on and that the opposition will have an answer in minutes to whatever I try. Having said that, it's my first save and I'm Bolton (no disrespect). I think I've lost confidence in myself that I'm panicking and trying everything I'm reading... And when that's not working, I stew for a bit over a beer contemplating that the FM journey might be over for me... Then I come back on here!! 

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1 hour ago, nightwalker22 said:

I think most of the 'nearly there' managers have this problem (that's what I like to think). While some of my tactics were decent, they always left me frustrated because I was not getting the results I really thought I should have. And I also believed there must be something that I am missing, after reading, watching so much staff of the better guys on this forum. I can't cllick it. And when I can't click it, I lose motivation quick. And I stop pursuing answers. But that's another story. Maybe we overreact and overthink the whole thing? Maybe we should keep it simple?

Maybe you're right. I think because there's so many options it's tempting to use them all... Especially if you're not winning. What's worrying is the ratings on steam for example of the FM series over the past 3-4 years, they progressively got worse. Probably lots of people not adapting and just simply saying it's too hard, but I'm finding it very complex this time around. 

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6 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Maybe you're right. I think because there's so many options it's tempting to use them all... Especially if you're not winning. What's worrying is the ratings on steam for example of the FM series over the past 3-4 years, they progressively got worse. Probably lots of people not adapting and just simply saying it's too hard, but I'm finding it very complex this time around. 

If you have a tactic with a well thought set of roles and duties, then all you need to do is observe whats happening in the game and then adapt. Sometimes all I do is change a defensive line. Sometimes I change mentality to tell my team to play with more risk, other times I may change shape to take advantage of the AI attacking me.  It's hard if people make it hard, by assuming there is a lot more to the game than there is already.  For one thing I don't pay attention to any of these things:

1. Team Talks
2. Body Language
 

These things don't matter as much as a well thought out system. In my wolves experiment which is on Youtube. I ran an entire season on holiday with a tactic. I gave it to my ass man went away had a nice meal, came back to find out that we topped the table and had won promotion. The next season, I went in brought a whole bunch of players, did the same thing again. This time I was prepared to be fired, so I kept popping into the game, checking. Nope, still had the job, season ended, we weren't relegated. I was duly impressed with my ass man. Imagine what he could achieve if we had money.

If the assman can take a well balanced tactic and over perform using only the Tactical creator, then why can't a human? The game is fundamentally so easy now, that whenever I coach people to play the game, they always come back with a look of shock on their faces when the lightbulb pops in their heads. Do not over-think, figure out first, what makes a well balanced tactic? To do that you need a solid grasp of what roles and duties do, and that is the BIGGEST SINGLE SUCCESS factor in the whole game. People who read my book and then ask me tonnes of questions, invariably have one thing in common, they skipped pages 1-104 where I go through attributes and roles and duties. That's 100 pages trying to explain why this facet of the game is central to you being successful. Once you understand that, all you need to ask yourself then is: "Do I truly understand the implications behind making shout changes?" If your tactic is well balanced and trust me most peoples tactics are, then why do they struggle? They struggle because they cannot ascertain whether a role/duty is playing the way it should within the overall framework of Mentality/Shape and the shouts that they use. Once you understand the TC, then all you need to do is observe transitions. By then all you are looking for are signs that your players aren't performing their roles to expectations.

And trust me, even some of the beta testers get this glaringly wrong. They think that a player isn't closing down or tackling properly when the real issue isn't the player but the fact that an entire screen in front of him went AWOL, because of the wrong combination of roles and duties. 

The issue people have isn't that they can't adapt, its because they don't know where to start from. And each time I see a thread heading into a direction where they start over analysing, I step in. There's no point over analysing. The game isn't hard, people make it hard. If the AI manager can win the title without me, damn he should be everyone's assistant manager. By the way its good ol faithful - Bobby Mimms, FM's greatest ever assistant manager.

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8 hours ago, Rashidi said:

If you have a tactic with a well thought set of roles and duties, then all you need to do is observe whats happening in the game and then adapt. Sometimes all I do is change a defensive line. Sometimes I change mentality to tell my team to play with more risk, other times I may change shape to take advantage of the AI attacking me.  It's hard if people make it hard, by assuming there is a lot more to the game than there is already.  For one thing I don't pay attention to any of these things:

1. Team Talks
2. Body Language
 

These things don't matter as much as a well thought out system. In my wolves experiment which is on Youtube. I ran an entire season on holiday with a tactic. I gave it to my ass man went away had a nice meal, came back to find out that we topped the table and had won promotion. The next season, I went in brought a whole bunch of players, did the same thing again. This time I was prepared to be fired, so I kept popping into the game, checking. Nope, still had the job, season ended, we weren't relegated. I was duly impressed with my ass man. Imagine what he could achieve if we had money.

If the assman can take a well balanced tactic and over perform using only the Tactical creator, then why can't a human? The game is fundamentally so easy now, that whenever I coach people to play the game, they always come back with a look of shock on their faces when the lightbulb pops in their heads. Do not over-think, figure out first, what makes a well balanced tactic? To do that you need a solid grasp of what roles and duties do, and that is the BIGGEST SINGLE SUCCESS factor in the whole game. People who read my book and then ask me tonnes of questions, invariably have one thing in common, they skipped pages 1-104 where I go through attributes and roles and duties. That's 100 pages trying to explain why this facet of the game is central to you being successful. Once you understand that, all you need to ask yourself then is: "Do I truly understand the implications behind making shout changes?" If your tactic is well balanced and trust me most peoples tactics are, then why do they struggle? They struggle because they cannot ascertain whether a role/duty is playing the way it should within the overall framework of Mentality/Shape and the shouts that they use. Once you understand the TC, then all you need to do is observe transitions. By then all you are looking for are signs that your players aren't performing their roles to expectations.

And trust me, even some of the beta testers get this glaringly wrong. They think that a player isn't closing down or tackling properly when the real issue isn't the player but the fact that an entire screen in front of him went AWOL, because of the wrong combination of roles and duties. 

The issue people have isn't that they can't adapt, its because they don't know where to start from. And each time I see a thread heading into a direction where they start over analysing, I step in. There's no point over analysing. The game isn't hard, people make it hard. If the AI manager can win the title without me, damn he should be everyone's assistant manager. By the way its good ol faithful - Bobby Mimms, FM's greatest ever assistant manager.

Ok, I think I understand the teasing options in the game do not all need to have your full attention, don't tick a box just because it is there, but foremost, the tactic needs the full attention. Even you have a well balanced tactic, you can have great success with poorer players. But... who is to say what is well balanced? Whatever the tactical creator spits out as default? The assistant manager advising we should have 5-6 attack duties for control mentality etc. The advice on here and from within the game makes it difficult to know who to listen to and all that information makes the game over complicated. 

From knowing how successful you are with this, it would be worth myself and everyone asking... where do I start? So at least the foundations can be put in place to find success. How do I know what is well balanced and what is not. Some of that I have picked up from watching your videos online, but maybe I have missed 'Part 1: The idiots guide to FM'. 

I watched your video on the 4231 with Arsenal, you played Burnley. I pretty much copied because I had become lazy coming up with a new tactic, what I was trying wasn't working. We dominated the opponent for 30 minutes. Then it all went pear shaped. To me, seeing why it went pear shaped was so difficult to pinpoint. That for me is the most frustrating part. I need to know why and don't understand why it has all of a sudden gone wrong. Did my full back switch off and make an error...? It happens sometimes, or is there something fundamentally wrong. How far back do you go in the match engine to find the route of the problem? What screens should you look at (as there are so many nowadays). Again, an overload of information, but because it is there, you are made to feel like you need to study it all otherwise why would SI put it in? To look flashy? To serve a purpose? Do all FM experts analyse all the data before the next game? From what you are saying, that is not the case and it is very easy to have success without all these pretty screens. 

Again, I am not having a go here, I just need to understand the game more, until I 'try again'. 

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43 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Ok, I think I understand the teasing options in the game do not all need to have your full attention, don't tick a box just because it is there, but foremost, the tactic needs the full attention. Even you have a well balanced tactic, you can have great success with poorer players. But... who is to say what is well balanced? Whatever the tactical creator spits out as default? The assistant manager advising we should have 5-6 attack duties for control mentality etc. The advice on here and from within the game makes it difficult to know who to listen to and all that information makes the game over complicated. 

From knowing how successful you are with this, it would be worth myself and everyone asking... where do I start? So at least the foundations can be put in place to find success. How do I know what is well balanced and what is not. Some of that I have picked up from watching your videos online, but maybe I have missed 'Part 1: The idiots guide to FM'. 

I watched your video on the 4231 with Arsenal, you played Burnley. I pretty much copied because I had become lazy coming up with a new tactic, what I was trying wasn't working. We dominated the opponent for 30 minutes. Then it all went pear shaped. To me, seeing why it went pear shaped was so difficult to pinpoint. That for me is the most frustrating part. I need to know why and don't understand why it has all of a sudden gone wrong. Did my full back switch off and make an error...? It happens sometimes, or is there something fundamentally wrong. How far back do you go in the match engine to find the route of the problem? What screens should you look at (as there are so many nowadays). Again, an overload of information, but because it is there, you are made to feel like you need to study it all otherwise why would SI put it in? To look flashy? To serve a purpose? Do all FM experts analyse all the data before the next game? From what you are saying, that is not the case and it is very easy to have success without all these pretty screens. 

Again, I am not having a go here, I just need to understand the game more, until I 'try again'. 

I would never criticise anyone who creates the videos helping etc and tutorials. And my following comments are just a caveat not a dig or belittling anyone's work. 

You can't simply copy the tactic they used and expect to get the same result.

If Rashidi had lost that game 3-0 to Burnley... do you think he would have posted it on the channel or book etc... no... 

I could win a game 4-0 and then retrospectively rewind the match and post highlights and wax lyrical about my tactic and how the videos prove how it works exactly how I wanted. I may tell you I've set my keeper to roll it out to my cbs and from there build slow and short through the middle... I may even find a highlight where that happens and post the video saying... "look it works here's a great goal using short passing build up from the GK" ... im not posting the other 100 times the keeper completely ignored my TI/PI and just hoofed it down field.

Think of it this way ... if 1,000,000 people join a coin tossing heads vs tails event and it costs £1 to enter and the winner takes the pot.

1 person is going to earn £1,000,000 and probably write a book about how to predict heads or tails... or claim some mystical power, or a direct line to God etc.

Rashidi beats Burnely 10-0 posts a vid... tactic is great.. all the theory reads like a treat... you copy it ... ut oh Burnley score in the first 5 mins from a 30 yard free kick ... your players morale goes lower, Burnley defend even deeper... you then go more attacking... they score a counter. FT you lost 2-0 "but I copied Rashidi ... what am I missing??"

I don't want to put words in his mouth ... but I imagine the videos and blogs are a way of teaching good principles and how to build a tactic and when/how to tweak it. It's never going to be "do this and you will win"

Edited by westy8chimp

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15 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

I would never criticise anyone who creates the videos helping etc and tutorials. And my following comments are just a caveat not a dig or belittling anyone's work. 

You can't simply copy the tactic they used and expect to get the same result.

If Rashidi had lost that game 3-0 to Burnley... do you think he would have posted it on the channel or book etc... no... 

I could win a game 4-0 and then retrospectively rewind the match and post highlights and wax lyrical about my tactic and how the videos prove how it works exactly how I wanted. I may tell you I've set my keeper to roll it out to my cbs and from there build slow and short through the middle... I may even find a highlight where that happens and post the video saying... "look it works here's a great goal using short passing build up from the GK" ... im not posting the other 100 times the keeper completely ignored my TI/PI and just hoofed it down field.

Think of it this way ... if 1,000,000 people join a coin tossing heads vs tails event and it costs £1 to enter and the winner takes the pot.

1 person is going to earn £1,000,000 and probably write a book about how to predict heads or tails... or claim some mystical power, or a direct line to God etc.

Rashidi beats Burnely 10-0 posts a vid... tactic is great.. all the theory reads like a treat... you copy it ... ut oh Burnley score in the first 5 mins from a 30 yard free kick ... your players morale goes lower, Burnley defend even deeper... you then go more attacking... they score a counter. FT you lost 2-0 "but I copied Rashidi ... what am I missing??"

I don't want to put words in his mouth ... but I imagine the videos and blogs are a way of teaching good principles and how to build a tactic and when/how to tweak it. It's never going to be "do this and you will win"

That was really the point I was trying to make... I and many others also, need to understand exactly how they are affected the game, by the decisions they make. You cannot really apply Real Life logic in my opinion and expect it to work perfectly, you need to remember it is a computer game. 

My other point I was trying to get across, is that I am overloaded with information on here, elsewhere online and within the game itself with the amount of data it can provide, that I really do not know where to start, what to look at and when... 

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17 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

That was really the point I was trying to make... I and many others also, need to understand exactly how they are affected the game, by the decisions they make. You cannot really apply Real Life logic in my opinion and expect it to work perfectly, you need to remember it is a computer game. 

My other point I was trying to get across, is that I am overloaded with information on here, elsewhere online and within the game itself with the amount of data it can provide, that I really do not know where to start, what to look at and when... 

If you read enough tactic threads you will see that every thread has a number of "do X" advice with equal number of "do Y" (where X & Y are polar opposites). you have to filter a lot of it out as 1) it's their opinion 2) it's their preference 3) they couldn't possibly know all the relevant information pertaining to your squad strength, player PPMs, form/morale... if your in a later season.. what the team reputations are etc.

All you can do, if using advice at all, is follow the pinned guides (these are pinned because consensus of the people who know the internal mechanics have verified it as 'good information') and thus also follow the advice of the people who write them... Dr Hook, Rashidi, Cleon, Mods etc..

But you can only use this information as a guide/tutorial... you still have to make your own mind up in game... because every persons Save has a plethora of different scenarios which change a lot of the mechanics! i.e. in my example above... that 30 yard free kick that makes you lose at home to Burnley triggers a completely different universe to the guy in whose save that same free kick hits the post and he goes on to win 3-0.

You can block a lot of the 'noise' out by starting with simple tactics i.e. 4123 wide or 4231 wide ... standard and flexible .... get some success... then come to forums with very specific issues... or ideas. If you come to the forum for your starting point you will be overwhelmed by all the different theories, tactics, and terminology.   

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1 hour ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Ok, I think I understand the teasing options in the game do not all need to have your full attention, don't tick a box just because it is there, but foremost, the tactic needs the full attention. Even you have a well balanced tactic, you can have great success with poorer players. But... who is to say what is well balanced? Whatever the tactical creator spits out as default? The assistant manager advising we should have 5-6 attack duties for control mentality etc. The advice on here and from within the game makes it difficult to know who to listen to and all that information makes the game over complicated. 

From knowing how successful you are with this, it would be worth myself and everyone asking... where do I start? So at least the foundations can be put in place to find success. How do I know what is well balanced and what is not. Some of that I have picked up from watching your videos online, but maybe I have missed 'Part 1: The idiots guide to FM'. 

I watched your video on the 4231 with Arsenal, you played Burnley. I pretty much copied because I had become lazy coming up with a new tactic, what I was trying wasn't working. We dominated the opponent for 30 minutes. Then it all went pear shaped. To me, seeing why it went pear shaped was so difficult to pinpoint. That for me is the most frustrating part. I need to know why and don't understand why it has all of a sudden gone wrong. Did my full back switch off and make an error...? It happens sometimes, or is there something fundamentally wrong. How far back do you go in the match engine to find the route of the problem? What screens should you look at (as there are so many nowadays). Again, an overload of information, but because it is there, you are made to feel like you need to study it all otherwise why would SI put it in? To look flashy? To serve a purpose? Do all FM experts analyse all the data before the next game? From what you are saying, that is not the case and it is very easy to have success without all these pretty screens. 

Again, I am not having a go here, I just need to understand the game more, until I 'try again'. 

I understand you are not having a go, and its just your frustration creeping in which is not something strange. I do lose at times, in fact prior to FM16 I could on for seasons without losing. Between FM15-16 I worked my socks off to show why that was the case, and since then I am glad that the AI has changed, now its all about spotting things in a game. Now I cannot go a full season without at least losing a few times, sometimes I put the videos up and sometimes I don't.

The fact is each video I do and every guide that I write is about adopting a set of principles. I try to share my style of play and I am not telling the world that this is the only way. There are so many ways to skin the cat. The problem is understanding the principles, the very basic ones, like what do different roles and duties do, and how do they change when we start playing with different mentality and shape settings, and then how do this get affected when we change team instructions.

Treating things in isolation like Shape for example is a dangerous exercise, and each time people come to me seeking a formula for successful shape settings, I resist the urge of giving useless information. Is there a specific shape to use for counter systems? Is there aa specific shape for teams with poor technical skills. The answer isn't a simple cut and dried one. 

Mentality affects risk, and this affects choices that players make for 90 minutes, covering everything from the passes they make, the off the ball movement they do and their decisions to close down and move up and down.

Shape affects how a team works together, do they behave in distinct units or do they work cohesively. 

Roles and Duties affect the individual players within a system and have the effect of making entire sets of players work as a unit or not, it also has the effect of working with Mentality and Shape that you use. The kind of duties you set up will influence in large part how important shape then becomes for you to exploit zones on the pitch. This is by far the biggest piece that nearly everyone gets wrong. The interrelationship between Mentality/Shape and Roles and Duties. In fact I did a video called the Dark Arts of Attacking Football way back in FM16, the rules of which still apply.

That list that was put up displaying the mentality, I used to make lists like that, now I don't. Reason is simple, things can change with SI, esp when they make small tweaks.

These are the main things that you need to set up right.  The rest of the shouts work off these.

Closing down and defensive line with the right roles and duties allow you to create defensive line traps. Its something I explain in a video where you create hot zones on the pitch where the AI is put under pressure, losing the ball there gives you a chance to win the 2nd ball back and counter. Works only in certain systems since its so role/duty dependant.

Width and the other shouts well they become minor shouts that just influence the style of play, really minor.

 

How much data do I analyse before a game 0. I just have fun.  What SI have done successfully in the last 2 years, is divert attention from these and give you a lot more candy on the screen that attracts you making you think its important when in reality it isn't. So if you focus only on understanding how Mentality/Shape roles and duties work together you should be fine. And here's why I am not posting details its been covered by me and Cleon in threads stickied up top. If you want something with a different flavour Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s threads recently show another way of approaching it. Basically its still the same principles he just uses Defensive lines and the shouts differently but what ALL THREE have in common is they use the same principles for mentality, shape, roles and duties. 

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18 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I understand you are not having a go, and its just your frustration creeping in which is not something strange. I do lose at times, in fact prior to FM16 I could on for seasons without losing. Between FM15-16 I worked my socks off to show why that was the case, and since then I am glad that the AI has changed, now its all about spotting things in a game. Now I cannot go a full season without at least losing a few times, sometimes I put the videos up and sometimes I don't.

The fact is each video I do and every guide that I write is about adopting a set of principles. I try to share my style of play and I am not telling the world that this is the only way. There are so many ways to skin the cat. The problem is understanding the principles, the very basic ones, like what do different roles and duties do, and how do they change when we start playing with different mentality and shape settings, and then how do this get affected when we change team instructions.

Treating things in isolation like Shape for example is a dangerous exercise, and each time people come to me seeking a formula for successful shape settings, I resist the urge of giving useless information. Is there a specific shape to use for counter systems? Is there aa specific shape for teams with poor technical skills. The answer isn't a simple cut and dried one. 

Mentality affects risk, and this affects choices that players make for 90 minutes, covering everything from the passes they make, the off the ball movement they do and their decisions to close down and move up and down.

Shape affects how a team works together, do they behave in distinct units or do they work cohesively. 

Roles and Duties affect the individual players within a system and have the effect of making entire sets of players work as a unit or not, it also has the effect of working with Mentality and Shape that you use. The kind of duties you set up will influence in large part how important shape then becomes for you to exploit zones on the pitch. This is by far the biggest piece that nearly everyone gets wrong. The interrelationship between Mentality/Shape and Roles and Duties. In fact I did a video called the Dark Arts of Attacking Football way back in FM16, the rules of which still apply.

That list that was put up displaying the mentality, I used to make lists like that, now I don't. Reason is simple, things can change with SI, esp when they make small tweaks.

These are the main things that you need to set up right.  The rest of the shouts work off these.

Closing down and defensive line with the right roles and duties allow you to create defensive line traps. Its something I explain in a video where you create hot zones on the pitch where the AI is put under pressure, losing the ball there gives you a chance to win the 2nd ball back and counter. Works only in certain systems since its so role/duty dependant.

Width and the other shouts well they become minor shouts that just influence the style of play, really minor.

 

How much data do I analyse before a game 0. I just have fun.  What SI have done successfully in the last 2 years, is divert attention from these and give you a lot more candy on the screen that attracts you making you think its important when in reality it isn't. So if you focus only on understanding how Mentality/Shape roles and duties work together you should be fine. And here's why I am not posting details its been covered by me and Cleon in threads stickied up top. If you want something with a different flavour Ö-zil to the Arsenal!'s threads recently show another way of approaching it. Basically its still the same principles he just uses Defensive lines and the shouts differently but what ALL THREE have in common is they use the same principles for mentality, shape, roles and duties. 

Lots of reading ahead of me I feel.
Good constructive replies and if you can recommend one link or post that you feel would be a good starting place, that would be appreciated (but I will try myself of course and go with some of the items you've mentioned above).

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On 6 februarie 2017 at 15:56, summatsupeer said:

The simplest way I can put it is:

  • The structured side your telling your deepest players to play safer and your advanced players to be a bit riskier.  Your also restricting freedom and telling them to focus on the job given them (role + duty).  A DL will start off safer than the selected mentality and if given defend duty would be even safer but if given an attack duty will have a big increase in mentality.
  • The fluid side your telling your deepest players to play a bit riskier and your advanced players to be a bit safer.  Your giving more freedom and allowing them to deviate from the job given them (role + duty).  A DL will start off closer to the selected mentality and if given a defend duty would be slightly safer and if given an attack duty would be slightly riskier.
  • Flexible is in the middle of this, deeper players will be a bit safer, advanced players a bit riskier.  Players will do the job given them but have some freedom.

Trying to go deeper and find out if X position on Y duty is riskier than Z position on U duty won't really help you, judge the play by what you see on the field.  Just be aware of the above and you should be fine.  It can help explain why a AML on attack duty when playing Very Structured on Control rarely tracks back to help defensively or get involved in transitions.  If he was in ML his starting mentality would be slightly lower due to his position in the formation and still gets that focus on his role+duty but still would be a small change compared to the teams mentality and his duty.

What exactly is an advanced player? Is it relative to your formation? I mean a 4-1-4-1 has only one player in more advanced areas (striker) whereas a 4-2-3-1 has four players in more advanced areas. So does that mean that the Team Shape is going to affect top heavy formations more than defensive formations?

I'm concerned about this because for example are my side midfielders in 4-1-4-1 (MCL/R) going to be more attacking/risky than the deeper players if I play it on Structured? Especially when I am trying to create a counter-attacking system. Of course I could watch the game and see it for myself, but I am not very good with transitions.

Edited by Armistice

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@nightwalker22

Break the vertical positions down:  D - DM - M - AM - A.  Midfield (M) is the constant with team shape, a CM-S will have the same mentality on all team shapes.  Its the players in deeper positions (D and DM) or advanced positions (AM and A) who either drop or push up before considering there duty.

Yes I would say formations that are either bottom or top heavy will play slightly different, but the biggest effect on how your team plays is base mentality, roles and duties.  A WM-S and a IF-S on Very Structured will have the IF-S be slightly more attacking when using Structured or Very Structured.  This is how the team expands/contracts even if using the same duty to a player in another strata.

p.s. errrr I just posted a reply and it appeared three times, I hide 2 and all 3 disappeared?!?  hope this works!  explained things better this time anyway

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16 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

@nightwalker22

Break the vertical positions down:  D - DM - M - AM - A.  Midfield (M) is the constant with team shape, a CM-S will have the same mentality on all team shapes.  Its the players in deeper positions (D and DM) or advanced positions (AM and A) who either drop or push up before considering there duty.

Yes I would say formations that are either bottom or top heavy will play slightly different, but the biggest effect on how your team plays is base mentality, roles and duties.  A WM-S and a IF-S on Very Structured will have the IF-S be slightly more attacking when using Structured or Very Structured.  This is how the team expands/contracts even if using the same duty to a player in another strata.

p.s. errrr I just posted a reply and it appeared three times, I hide 2 and all 3 disappeared?!?  hope this works!  explained things better this time anyway

Alright, all clear, thank you!

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On 07/02/2017 at 11:45, johnnyyakuza78 said:

Is it just me who checks the individual mentality settings of players in the game when I change shape or roles? You can visually see how those changes affect the players mentality 

How do you go about checking that? 

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3 hours ago, DerKopite said:

How do you go about checking that? 

in tactics screen you open individual player instructions and you have the mentality bar that shows how attacking role/position is. it will change the length as you change the positions/roles of player.

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34 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

in tactics screen you open individual player instructions and you have the mentality bar that shows how attacking role/position is. it will change the length as you change the positions/roles of player.

I think it has to be from the main tactic screen tho and click on a player? If you go to player instructions it doesn't show... (sorry at this point it would be handy if i had a screen shot which did show it but im at work)

PIs.PNG

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1 hour ago, MBarbaric said:

in tactics screen you open individual player instructions and you have the mentality bar that shows how attacking role/position is. it will change the length as you change the positions/roles of player.

So, the suitability for role and duty bar? 

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1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

I think it has to be from the main tactic screen tho and click on a player? If you go to player instructions it doesn't show... (sorry at this point it would be handy if i had a screen shot which did show it but im at work)

PIs.PNG

Click on th Edit button and the green bar is what you look for.

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4 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

I think it has to be from the main tactic screen tho and click on a player? If you go to player instructions it doesn't show... (sorry at this point it would be handy if i had a screen shot which did show it but im at work)

PIs.PNG

 

2 hours ago, DerKopite said:

So, the suitability for role and duty bar? 

 

2 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

Click on th Edit button and the green bar is what you look for.

Just to avoid any possible confusion (there are quite a few green bars), click the Edit button as seen in the screen shot.  At the top of the window that opens it says "Player Instructions" - just below that there is a green bar titled "Mentality".  That's the one you are looking for.

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dudes, the suffering from losing matches are perfectly natural thing that makes us human. But it's thanks to failures we can grow even more. If u can accept failures as an essential part of growing, u can bounce back to the right track. What makes FM addicting is, once u get on track for a while, your oppositions will adapt n u will eventually lose If u can't adapt. Take a look at Barcelona's extreme Tiki Taka era, that eventually lost both in score n play, to the German Giant. Even in real life, there are only few clubs at the highest level of competitions could achieve an unbeaten season. For me, the most exciting part of playing FM is not getting the title itself, or being unbeaten for so long. But it is the thrilling sensation I get every time my team is on an urgent state during a match. What change should I do, when I should bring in subs, what on earth did u do wrong with the setup, etc. Also I never pausing the game while thinking hard how to turn the table to feel the sensation of panic. "hold yourselves boys im thinking now, just wait, dont get conceded" that's what usually come into my mind. 

It's indeed frustrating but that's the fun. It's not fun if u keep dominating n winning every match, or winning a match mostly because the quality of your players are far far better, more so if it's done by cheating with a 3rd party program. U will eventually get bored, n losing your way. There were many lost matches that made me feel satisfied because I know I gave it all on those matches, n even though I lost I  did fight back as best as I could. U need to set a short-term goal that is still possibly achieved by your team before setting your eyes on something higher. Like, first, try to avoid not losing matches in a row before setting eyes to a more challenging goal that is not too far ahead from the previous one. Little by little, no matter how big your side is. This way, u wont get frustrated too much, n give u a hint of how much u have grown. Eventually u will be capable of spotting problems n weaknesses at few glances almost automatically. Dont stick to plug n play. Using a completely identical tactic down to every player's roles n instructions even using the same club n players. It wont give u the same result. Mainly because football is dynamic. Every match is different, so each of them also need different measures even before the game is started. FM also have some random elements like player's consistency n important matches (hidden attributes). Here comes your skills n experience as a manager. 


In regards to the topic, both mentality n team shapee are just determining the basic frame of your tactic. IMHO, it's down to how well u can combine all 11 players to work in harmony n avoid players neglecting or conflicting with each other. It's quite similar with how a car works. Mentality is like, how fast n powerful do u want that car to be,. While team shape is like do u want that car to be a 4wd or 2wd, front engine or midship engine (the engine is on the middle of chassis, usually behind the seats). Then playing style is like do u want a car for racing on the circuit tracks or offroad ones, or racing on public roads, or racing on very long legth tracks, or just for family trips or daily use. But no matter what u will need all parts of the car to work perfectly fine n in harmony. Let's say u have an engine that can generate 11000 RPM but your tachometer maximum capacity is just 8000, it means your engine is just a waste of time n money because it wont never achieve its maximum potential. It's winter but your tires arent suited for snowy track? say hello from the netherworld. 

 

 

What I found interesting about both football tactics n cars is, both of them are always pursuing balance. In football we seek balance of each player to achieve a desired result or style of play, both defense n attack. We need to adjust roles n duty with that in mind. While with cars, engineers are always seeking for balance of weight no matter what basic frame is being used to build one to achieve the desired speed n stability. They need to adjust every part of the car including those "for the sake of eye candy-only" parts so the car can be well-balanced in weight distribution,  Without balance, both tactics n cars will crash n crumble. 

 

So yeah, u need to understand how each role works along with its available duty. Several roles are available on different positions so they wont act the same, depends on which position u assigned that role into. U also need to learn how each duty in each positions act in different mentality n team shape settings. If u're done with that, u can concentrate more on analyzing your opposition. How they adapt to your tactic year by year. Cheers, n good luck 

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I'm not sure if the DC and the GK will be involved in the attack transition even in a very fluid shape

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No.  It's not accurate and I'm hiding the table posted as people could easily read it and think to use it.

Everyone can be involved in defence, transitions and attacks.  You think a Wingback with an attack duty using a Highly Structured Team Shape won't attack (for example)?  Or be involved in transitions?  According to that table, all he'll do is defend.

Player roles and duties set what each player will do.  Team Shape then modifies their behaviour by changing the individual player mentality (which you can see in the PI screen).  That's all there is to it.

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