FM15 to FM17 Struggles

[LCFCEaves31]

Hello

Rather than ramble on, can I just ask if anyone can spare some time to help. I am desperate to understand what the hell is going wrong with FM for me. I've given up on expert YouTube videos and guides as I think I am applying a lot of what they are advising but still I am getting nowhere. I have come from FM15 to 17, and I am struggling big time.

Bolton Wanderers - League 1 - Need to gain promotion within 1st season or it'll probably be the sack.

Current Formation - 4-4-1-1

               DLF(s)
               AP(a)
W(a) CM(d) CM(s) W(a)
FB(s) CB(d) CB(d) FB(s)
              GK (d)

If we come against one striker I switch my CB's to stopper and cover.

Not sure where to start with tactics as I have changed it a few times, but this is what I have at the moment

Mentality - Standard (was Control but we seemed to be lumping ball forward, too direct)
Shape - Flexible

Team instructions:
Tempo - Normal  (has been both low and high previously... neither work how I want them to)
Width - Fairly Wide
Defensive Line - Slightly Deeper
Closing Down - More
Stay on feet
Play out of defence
Shorter passing
Retain Possession

PPM:

Goalkeeper - Roll it out, distribute to full backs
Full Backs - Fewer risky passes (as they keep lumping it forward, in fact my RB still does)
CM support - Shoot less often. Long shots are 8 yet he keeps hitting... but with the lack of movement ahead of him, it is no surprise.
Deep Lying Forward - Dribble less. Dribbling poor and kept giving the ball away

As you can see above, it probably looks like a lot of shouts, but I started with none, and added some in from advice of other FM players and also what I deem to be suitable for the style of play I want. However, the results are so dramatically different from game to game, I am beginning to feel like any win I get is just a fluke.
What I would like to see (and what I managed to achieve with Lecce on FM15) is possession based game, patient build up, let the whole team get up the park and support waiting for the right moment to try a threaded pass. All I have instead is panicky, wasteful, passing with no movement off the ball whatsoever.

I understand with League 1 players it isn't going to be easy, but when I can't even get close, it is frustrating. I managed it with a Serie C side in FM15, but cannot get it now.

If anyone has started or interested in starting a save as Bolton and seeing what results they get, I'd appreciate you guiding me through what you're finding, because I desperately need help.

I know 'the game doesn't hate me' or that 'it's full of bugs', I understand it is me not seeing what is in front of me, but I am an amateur and FM17 seems a lot different to me... hopefully I can get some enjoyment back again.

Thanks

[Rashidi]

What guides on youtube have you been watching?
 

[vasilli07]

The 1 thing you should do is identify your scorers. You have 1 AP and 2 wingers who I will say are more of creators roles. Your DLF(sup) will often drop deep to provide a through ball but to who? No one is making runs towards the pk box.

Your buildup play could be too slow as well with TIs like shorter passing and retain possession. Being a favourite in your division, you are likely to face alot of park the bus teams which may require more variety of passing style to get through their defence.

[LCFCEaves31]

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

What guides on youtube have you been watching?
 

Bust the net mainly

[LCFCEaves31]

5 hours ago, vasilli07 said:

The 1 thing you should do is identify your scorers. You have 1 AP and 2 wingers who I will say are more of creators roles. Your DLF(sup) will often drop deep to provide a through ball but to who? No one is making runs towards the pk box.

Your buildup play could be too slow as well with TIs like shorter passing and retain possession. Being a favourite in your division, you are likely to face alot of park the bus teams which may require more variety of passing style to get through their defence.

I've seen similar systems online that've worked... If I play my wingers further forward my full backs tend to become exposed. 

Ive also tried to speed things up without retain possession and they constantly give the ball away. But you're right, at times the play is pedestrian and my players stand on the ball waiting for a runner and it doesn't happen. 

Any recomendations on amending roles? Or is there a tactic/thread with possession based football you can recommend?

[Jorsin]

Have you tried the set-up with a deeper creative player? If you want a more patient build-up, having your creative player deeper may help to move the ball forwards constructively. That would free up your AP slot for an SS (which should work with a DLF(s) ) - though this assumes you have someone suitable for an SS role.

[jorgvandervloed]

@LCFCEaves31

One of the first things you need to identify is; who is going to score the goals for me and who is going to create these chances for me? At the moment, you have wingers and an advanced playmaker, who will both mainly look to create chances for someone else, but probably in the right set up will get a few goals here and there. Also, the deep-lying forward (support) will drop deep to create space for runners from deep and is a very creative role as well. So basically you have a bunch of creators, but no goal-scorers. 

Team-instruction wise; you want to pressure the opponent, but drop deep and tell your players to close down more? Basically you're telling your players to make the pitch larger so they have to cover more ground to hunt down the other team. 

Why have you chosen for stay on feet? Or both Retain possession and shorter passing? 

[LCFCEaves31]

1 hour ago, jorgvandervloed said:

@LCFCEaves31

One of the first things you need to identify is; who is going to score the goals for me and who is going to create these chances for me? At the moment, you have wingers and an advanced playmaker, who will both mainly look to create chances for someone else, but probably in the right set up will get a few goals here and there. Also, the deep-lying forward (support) will drop deep to create space for runners from deep and is a very creative role as well. So basically you have a bunch of creators, but no goal-scorers. 

Team-instruction wise; you want to pressure the opponent, but drop deep and tell your players to close down more? Basically you're telling your players to make the pitch larger so they have to cover more ground to hunt down the other team. 

Why have you chosen for stay on feet? Or both Retain possession and shorter passing? 

You have pointed out a floor which I guess should have been obvious regarding all the play-making... in the games we have won convincingly however, my AP and Wingers all scored, running off the ball into space created by my DLF... so that is why I stuck with it.

Regarding the team instructions, I read that I could press whilst having a deeper line, because it would create loads of space to then play into after (something along those lines)... at the time, it went against everything I believed in, but thought someone knew something I didn't, and assumed my role as an 'Amateur' once again.

I chose to stay on feet because when I was pressing/closing down more, we were giving away lots of fouls in and around my penalty area. 

Retain possession and shorter passing seemed to be the obvious route to go for a possession based plan...

[Jorsin]

1 hour ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

You have pointed out a floor which I guess should have been obvious regarding all the play-making... in the games we have won convincingly however, my AP and Wingers all scored, running off the ball into space created by my DLF... so that is why I stuck with it.

Regarding the team instructions, I read that I could press whilst having a deeper line, because it would create loads of space to then play into after (something along those lines)... at the time, it went against everything I believed in, but thought someone knew something I didn't, and assumed my role as an 'Amateur' once again.

I chose to stay on feet because when I was pressing/closing down more, we were giving away lots of fouls in and around my penalty area. 

Retain possession and shorter passing seemed to be the obvious route to go for a possession based plan...

How did your wingers and AP perform against teams of a similar level to you? I think that might prove to be a better indicator of their contributions.

I agree that combining a deeper line with more closing down means a lot more running for your team. There used to be the option of only closing down in your own half...I'm not sure if/how that can be replicated now...closing down sometimes maybe?

I suspect that shorter passing already reduces the risk of turning over possession - this feels like overkill and seems like possession for the sake of possession. I remember (irl) Spurs going to Man C under AvB...had 53% possession (which was decent against a strong Man C side)...but lost 6-0. I can understand the feeling that more possession = more likely to win (or not lose) but I don't think that's the case. If you are up against a quick or technically gifted side, they don't need to see a lot of the ball to punish you.

[vasilli07]

2 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

I've seen similar systems online that've worked... If I play my wingers further forward my full backs tend to become exposed. 

Ive also tried to speed things up without retain possession and they constantly give the ball away. But you're right, at times the play is pedestrian and my players stand on the ball waiting for a runner and it doesn't happen. 

Any recomendations on amending roles? Or is there a tactic/thread with possession based football you can recommend?

You can consider changing 1 of your winger to a WM role with cut inside and cross less often to replicate an IF. You can also try creating more movement along the lines, maybe the WM(S) as he is cutting inside with an FB(A) to create an overload.

[jorgvandervloed]

1 hour ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

You have pointed out a floor which I guess should have been obvious regarding all the play-making... in the games we have won convincingly however, my AP and Wingers all scored, running off the ball into space created by my DLF... so that is why I stuck with it.

Regarding the team instructions, I read that I could press whilst having a deeper line, because it would create loads of space to then play into after (something along those lines)... at the time, it went against everything I believed in, but thought someone knew something I didn't, and assumed my role as an 'Amateur' once again.

I chose to stay on feet because when I was pressing/closing down more, we were giving away lots of fouls in and around my penalty area. 

Retain possession and shorter passing seemed to be the obvious route to go for a possession based plan...

Your team was probably fouling more because there was too much space to cover and your players couldn't handle it; would be my guess at least...

I would start with looking at changing your striker role/duty; you want him to be a presence in the box to get at the end of crosses or through passes. At the moment, with his support duty, he drops deep which means there is no one to cross to... 

[Rashidi]

10 hours ago, Rashidi said:

What guides on youtube have you been watching?
 

Basically in the latest video on passing styles I speak about how you set passing specifically to ensure you keep possession of the ball and move it around. When you see players lumping it forward its usually because of several factors; 

1. They have risky passing

2. They have no options to pass

You need to sort both out...there is one shout you are using that should be removed and that's retain possession, while it reduces through balls it also reduces your attacking efficiency. Set mixed passes only on those you feel comfortable doing it. Your setup tactically is encouraging them to lump the ball forward.  With two wingers surging down the flanks, if the two in the middle get marked out or aren't an easy options, balls will get lumped forward. Your passing triangles on the flanks are huge and really depend on the CMs having a good game, and if they are marked out, players will lump the ball forward. Furthermore you are playing with a defensive line thats already deep ( there is a video on this too), that depth coupled with the 2 W(A) is forcing your side to stretch out, if players don't have the skill to play the ball forward you will see them lump it

To encourage your side to keep possession you need to think about how you are going to get players to help and support the two so they have more time on the ball. And remove the closing down more shout. You are combining that with a deep dline that's a huge problem. On top of that you are telling your players to stay on feet. Its like this:
 

"Hey boys come closer to my goal, we will rush you as you get closer once you are past the half way mark? Ok, but don't worry we won't tackle you. So feel free to move around us all you like"

[LCFCEaves31]

7 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Basically in the latest video on passing styles I speak about how you set passing specifically to ensure you keep possession of the ball and move it around. When you see players lumping it forward its usually because of several factors; 

1. They have risky passing

2. They have no options to pass

You need to sort both out...there is one shout you are using that should be removed and that's retain possession, while it reduces through balls it also reduces your attacking efficiency. Set mixed passes only on those you feel comfortable doing it. Your setup tactically is encouraging them to lump the ball forward.  With two wingers surging down the flanks, if the two in the middle get marked out or aren't an easy options, balls will get lumped forward. Your passing triangles on the flanks are huge and really depend on the CMs having a good game, and if they are marked out, players will lump the ball forward. Furthermore you are playing with a defensive line thats already deep ( there is a video on this too), that depth coupled with the 2 W(A) is forcing your side to stretch out, if players don't have the skill to play the ball forward you will see them lump it

To encourage your side to keep possession you need to think about how you are going to get players to help and support the two so they have more time on the ball. And remove the closing down more shout. You are combining that with a deep dline that's a huge problem. On top of that you are telling your players to stay on feet. Its like this:
 

"Hey boys come closer to my goal, we will rush you as you get closer once you are past the half way mark? Ok, but don't worry we won't tackle you. So feel free to move around us all you like"

Cool thanks. It all makes sense when you say it or read it yet because it's a game off code I think I'm trying to over complicate things ... Or think there's a secret recipe when I see all these downloadable tactics available. 

I'll be sure watch your other videos as well before I load the save up again. 

Il be back whether I get success or not... Thanks

[LCFCEaves31]

Well loaded the save up and the first thing I wanted to 'fix' was my pressing... Push higher up and press more. I cleared all the other shouts.

We were 2-0 after 10 minutes... my centre backs were out paced by their 6ft 5 target man who has no pace... seriously...

Their second goal, counter attack from my corner. This seems to happen all the time on FM17, never noticed it a lot of FM15.

Has anyone played as Bolton on here? I am really struggling with them. I think because of the statue of the club, and at the top of the league in real life I thought it would be a bit of a doddle...

[jorgvandervloed]

19 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Well loaded the save up and the first thing I wanted to 'fix' was my pressing... Push higher up and press more. I cleared all the other shouts.

We were 2-0 after 10 minutes... my centre backs were out paced by their 6ft 5 target man who has no pace... seriously...

Their second goal, counter attack from my corner. This seems to happen all the time on FM17, never noticed it a lot of FM15.

Has anyone played as Bolton on here? I am really struggling with them. I think because of the statue of the club, and at the top of the league in real life I thought it would be a bit of a doddle...

That's why people here keep saying that you should watch the match or at least parts of it. Not saying you haven't, but it's important to understand that sometimes your tactic isn't working in that particular game. 

Counter-attacking is much more powerful than it used to be in other versions and with your reputation clubs probably sit back and try to defend. 

[callamity]

On 24/01/2017 at 18:50, LCFCEaves31 said:

Cool thanks. It all makes sense when you say it or read it yet because it's a game off code I think I'm trying to over complicate things ... Or think there's a secret recipe when I see all these downloadable tactics available. 

I'll be sure watch your other videos as well before I load the save up again. 

Il be back whether I get success or not... Thanks

Having released download able tactics in the past I can promise you that there is no secret recipe. 

 

There is no one better than bustthenet on YouTube to give you accurate and up to date advice on fm any version. I'd even go as far as to recommend the patron program of bustthenet as there are guys there who discuss this game in some depth. I very rarely look at forums since joining myself.

[LCFCEaves31]

I am not getting anywhere. Whatever I try and implement, it isn't working. Bolton are either terrible or most likely I am.

[LCFCEaves31]

I've manager to stop losing games... I decided to change it up, but to try and start from scratch tactics wise.
I've stuck with the same formation, 4-2-3-1 as below

               DLF(s)
 W(a)      AM(a)   WP(S)
        BWM(s) DLP(d)
FB(s) DCB(d) CB(d) FB(A)
              GK (d)

Team Instructions:
Pass into space
Play out of Defence

Mentality: Counter
Team Shape: Flexible

Both Full Backs have 'fewer risky passes' as they kept lumping it forward, and my BWM has 'Shoot less often' even though he blasted in a volley in the last game. My AM has 'Move into channels'.

Last four results with this system:

Oxford H - Draw 1-1
Swindon A - Win 3-0
Oldham H - Draw 1-1
Milwall A - Draw 1-1

It is the last two games I want to draw attention to. Both games, we have created very few clear cut chances, and in the last match in particular, we had only one shot on target which was the goal. We also only had one shot on target within the oppositions penalty box, 8 were from outside the box. 24 shots in total I think it was. In the 2nd half I changed it to 'Work ball into box' and we then went from creating some chances to creating hardly any (clear cut).

Really struggling going forward, getting better at the back even though clean sheets are few and far between. The goals we concede are stupid, players not being closed down in our own penalty area and standing unmarked from a cross into the area to tap in. None of my players are ever standing unmarked in their area, and even if they were we rarely pick out our team mates.

If anyone can take a look at the above and again try and point out anything glaringly obvious that's not helping and also if any more info is needed.

[vasilli07]

I will consider changing the W(A) to W(S) and DLF(S) to DLF(A). The DLF(A) will not drop deep that frequently, that gives you another goal threat(beside your AM) in the box when your fullback and winger are delivering their crosses.

[craiigman]

I've been meaning to start a save with Bolton since it came out, just haven't had the time to play the game much so far (90 minutes total game time lol).

Can you post a screen shot of your line up? I assume with Boltons budget you've not been able to bring anyone new in?

Bolton are a tough start because of money, and Zach Clough being injured from the start.

[LCFCEaves31]

2 hours ago, craiigman said:

I've been meaning to start a save with Bolton since it came out, just haven't had the time to play the game much so far (90 minutes total game time lol).

Can you post a screen shot of your line up? I assume with Boltons budget you've not been able to bring anyone new in?

Bolton are a tough start because of money, and Zach Clough being injured from the start.

I can't give you that right now but from memory here it is (Zac Clough came back for 20 minutes and then got injured in training again...)

Alnwick

Buxton - Thorpe - Wheater - Taylor 

Spearing - Vela / Hussain (signed on a free)

Henry - Walsh(on loan from Everton) - Ameobi

Madine/Proctor

[craiigman]

10 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

I can't give you that right now but from memory here it is (Zac Clough came back for 20 minutes and then got injured in training again...)

Alnwick

Buxton - Thorpe - Wheater - Taylor 

Spearing - Vela / Hussain (signed on a free)

Henry - Walsh(on loan from Everton) - Ameobi

Madine/Proctor

When I get home from work, if I have some time, I'll start up a Bolton save and see what I can come up with. Not using Mark Davies?

[craiigman]

That being said, if you want to learn the game a bit quicker, load up an FM Touch/Classic save with Barca/Madrid/Bayern and see what you can do there first, understand what's working and why, then implement that on what your doing and adjusting for the players you have available.

[LCFCEaves31]

3 hours ago, craiigman said:

When I get home from work, if I have some time, I'll start up a Bolton save and see what I can come up with. Not using Mark Davies?

He's also injured... for the entire season

[LCFCEaves31]

Honestly the amount of goals the opposition scores from crosses into the box is laughable.

Every single game the opposition scores on the counter attack as well... and how...? A cross.

 

[LCFCEaves31]

I have just quit and loaded it up again, exactly the same result against another poor team in the relegation zone, lost 2-1, that's twice I have reloaded it and got the same result. We take the lead, have good possession, they then score from another cross into the box... then our possession and grip on the game just simply falls apart. Why does the AI have David Beckham crossing the ball into the box? Is this a bug? Every single cross I put in never hit's a team mate!!

Also one thing I have noticed happening a lot for the AI, is the amount of players in my box when they attack using the same formation as I do. They always have at least 3 in the box, which is the two wingers and striker, plus a midfielder attacks late. My attacking mid make no runs into the box, my wingers whether they are set on IF or W rarely get into the box, and my DLF whether on Attack or Support is a statue. I am lucky if he has one shot (especially on target) from within the box. On the rare occasion he moves, a cross or pass rarely finds him.

Just when I thought I had made us more solid and put measures in place to stop counter attacks and be more cautious, it goes backwards again. So defending is crap, they have Beckham and Giggs on the wings and we create little and have zero movement going forward is how I would sum up my Bolton save.

I have saved the last game, before I quit again. Any poor results at the moment just get me closer to being sacked. How do you upload a saved match file on here? So you can see what is practically happening all the time.

If I cannot get a win next time I reload, I will quit and give up with Bolton.

[LCFCEaves31]

5 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

I have just quit and loaded it up again, exactly the same result against another poor team in the relegation zone, lost 2-1, that's twice I have reloaded it and got the same result. We take the lead, have good possession, they then score from another cross into the box... then our possession and grip on the game just simply falls apart. Why does the AI have David Beckham crossing the ball into the box? Is this a bug? Every single cross I put in never hit's a team mate!!

Also one thing I have noticed happening a lot for the AI, is the amount of players in my box when they attack using the same formation as I do. They always have at least 3 in the box, which is the two wingers and striker, plus a midfielder attacks late. My attacking mid make no runs into the box, my wingers whether they are set on IF or W rarely get into the box, and my DLF whether on Attack or Support is a statue. I am lucky if he has one shot (especially on target) from within the box. On the rare occasion he moves, a cross or pass rarely finds him.

Just when I thought I had made us more solid and put measures in place to stop counter attacks and be more cautious, it goes backwards again. So defending is crap, they have Beckham and Giggs on the wings and we create little and have zero movement going forward is how I would sum up my Bolton save.

I have saved the last game, before I quit again. Any poor results at the moment just get me closer to being sacked. How do you upload a saved match file on here? So you can see what is practically happening all the time.

If I cannot get a win next time I reload, I will quit and give up with Bolton.

Got the win I was in desperate need for.

Positives - Gave the opposition hardly any chances, kept a clean sheet, Zac Clough managed 80 mins after long injury and scored both goals, opposition created 0 clear cut chances

Negatives - Only four shots at goal within opposition area, we created 0 clear cut chances, both goals were direct free kicks

I have tried uploading a couple of images below as well which may help.

 

[vasilli07]

F9 drops deep to create and AP is likely to stay on the edge of the pk box most of the time. 3 of your front 4 players are late runners. Your tactic currently makes your front 4 players play in front of the opposition defence rather than getting behind them. If your AM is a good scorer, put him as AM(A) so that the F9/AP can have another player to play a though ball to.

[craiigman]

9 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Got the win I was in desperate need for.

Positives - Gave the opposition hardly any chances, kept a clean sheet, Zac Clough managed 80 mins after long injury and scored both goals, opposition created 0 clear cut chances

Negatives - Only four shots at goal within opposition area, we created 0 clear cut chances, both goals were direct free kicks

I have tried uploading a couple of images below as well which may help.

 

Sorry mate didn't have time to start a save up (work and family commitments). But looking at your setup I see what you want to do, you want quick short passing and attack quickly. Problem is that you also have over 60% possession. So by playing high tempo and counter with work into the box, you are sort of conflicting the instructions.

you also only have 1 player on attack duty, meaning only 1 player is really attacking the teams defense.

having clough back will make things easier for sure, but you could also experiment with 2 up top, the other two won't score many, but can work well with clough.

basically the main problem I see in the tactic is getting people running in behind. Look at your other players for pace, pretty sure Ameobi is quick, try and utilise him if possible.

[LCFCEaves31]

3 hours ago, craiigman said:

Sorry mate didn't have time to start a save up (work and family commitments). But looking at your setup I see what you want to do, you want quick short passing and attack quickly. Problem is that you also have over 60% possession. So by playing high tempo and counter with work into the box, you are sort of conflicting the instructions.

you also only have 1 player on attack duty, meaning only 1 player is really attacking the teams defense.

having clough back will make things easier for sure, but you could also experiment with 2 up top, the other two won't score many, but can work well with clough.

basically the main problem I see in the tactic is getting people running in behind. Look at your other players for pace, pretty sure Ameobi is quick, try and utilise him if possible.

I tried using Ameobi and while he was a good winger no crosses made it onto the head of any attackers. I have Clough and the. Two target men in reserve who are not that great and don't win enough headers.

I was thinking of putting him in as an inside forward as well ... 

[summatsupeer]

15 hours ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

The major two things I would focus on:

1. You lack width.  All 4 forward players are drifting inside or cutting inside with the ball so your attack is quite narrow with only FB-S to provide occasional width.  You need to stretch defences to create space inside even if you don't want lots of crossing.
2. Lack of runners but using Pass Into Space.  Only 1 player is looking to make runs often but lots of players looking to play risky passes aka through balls (Pass Into Space).  Look at all the central support roles you have and the AP-S who will come inside to.  Do you want players like the BWM looking to try more risky passes or would you rather he leave it for the F9 and AP-S to take the risks?

[LCFCEaves31]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

The major two things I would focus on:

1. You lack width.  All 4 forward players are drifting inside or cutting inside with the ball so your attack is quite narrow with only FB-S to provide occasional width.  You need to stretch defences to create space inside even if you don't want lots of crossing.
2. Lack of runners but using Pass Into Space.  Only 1 player is looking to make runs often but lots of players looking to play risky passes aka through balls (Pass Into Space).  Look at all the central support roles you have and the AP-S who will come inside to.  Do you want players like the BWM looking to try more risky passes or would you rather he leave it for the F9 and AP-S to take the risks?

To try and answer why I have done what I've done, I was conceding way too many goals, keeping a clean sheet was almost impossible. And the majority of the goals were from counter attack crosses from the opposition. I may have gone slightly overkill on the defensive set up to counter act it and it certainly worked in the last game. I did have my left sided Full Back on Attack duty but was being caught out all the time if we gave the ball the away.

My BWM midfielder has a player instruction of to dribble less as he kept taking on people and losing it which would leave my FB exposed, so I guess I could try the FB on Attack duty again. 

I have found with wingers on this version compared to FM15, is they stay wider and rarely make an inside run into the space behind the back four, but maybe there is something else stopping them from doing it...? 

I also made my AM support because I wanted him to drop a bit deeper and help against a ever popular 3 man midfield. 

And lastly, my wide AP on support was a switch because although he can play as a winger, he has 13 and 12 as pace and acceleration... and while he is a good crosser of the ball, as mentioned in an earlier post, my strikers don't win headers nor do we find a team mate with low crosses.

[summatsupeer]

Why go from FB-S to FB-A?  What about a WB-S?  A BWM-S isn't a covering / holding player, he's a supporting player who tries to win the ball.   The AP will be the player who comes inside earliest and most so of the two flanks needs the outside help the most.  You also have the CM-D on that side to provide cover for the right back.  For me I would want the left back on support and the right back on attack or at least WB-S.

I think it depends where you are on the field.  The winger will stay wide in the middle third but should narrow as you get closer to there goal.  I've had wingers on attack duty who are one of the main goal scorers of the team.

Would you change a IF or Winger from Attack to support because you want him to defend deeper?  Probably not so why do it with an AM? If you want him to defend deeper then position him deeper in your formation (which is your defensive positioning).  If the role and/or duty is affecting how you attack its not worth keeping the advanced defensive positioning, he could be a CM-A or a BBM-S making runs from deep.

Yeah a winger with 13 pace and 12 acceleration doesn't sound very good.  Sounds like he's more of a Wide Midfielder if you need him to provide some width.  You'll have to analyse your right sided players to see what they can offer and how you can get some width on that flank.

[LCFCEaves31]

18 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Why go from FB-S to FB-A?  What about a WB-S?  A BWM-S isn't a covering / holding player, he's a supporting player who tries to win the ball.   The AP will be the player who comes inside earliest and most so of the two flanks needs the outside help the most.  You also have the CM-D on that side to provide cover for the right back.  For me I would want the left back on support and the right back on attack or at least WB-S.

I think it depends where you are on the field.  The winger will stay wide in the middle third but should narrow as you get closer to there goal.  I've had wingers on attack duty who are one of the main goal scorers of the team.

Would you change a IF or Winger from Attack to support because you want him to defend deeper?  Probably not so why do it with an AM? If you want him to defend deeper then position him deeper in your formation (which is your defensive positioning).  If the role and/or duty is affecting how you attack its not worth keeping the advanced defensive positioning, he could be a CM-A or a BBM-S making runs from deep.

Yeah a winger with 13 pace and 12 acceleration doesn't sound very good.  Sounds like he's more of a Wide Midfielder if you need him to provide some width.  You'll have to analyse your right sided players to see what they can offer and how you can get some width on that flank.

To answer your first point about WB-S... I concede way too many goals from a team playing 4-2-3-1. their wingers always get in behind or even inside and end up through on goal. I had tried WB and it seemed to magnify the problem. The narrower I set up, less of a problem it becomes it feels. But as you say, it restricts forward movement. I knew this area would cause problems so tried the CM d there and it didn't seem to help... Probably should have given it more than 1 game... Feel like I am caught between a rock and a hard place at the moment.

[summatsupeer]

7 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

To answer your first point about WB-S... I concede way too many goals from a team playing 4-2-3-1. their wingers always get in behind or even inside and end up through on goal. I had tried WB and it seemed to magnify the problem. The narrower I set up, less of a problem it becomes it feels. But as you say, it restricts forward movement. I knew this area would cause problems so tried the CM d there and it didn't seem to help... Probably should have given it more than 1 game... Feel like I am caught between a rock and a hard place at the moment.

Bare in mind your playing Counter + Structured with a 4231 Wide.  You have 4 players in advanced positions, your giving up space between your defense and midfield and it sounds like that's being exposed by the opponents.  With so many advanced positions I would want to push up and press more rather than sitting like the default Counter mentality does.

Is the FB being caught out of position because of joining attacks and your getting counter attacked?  If he's back in position but just being beaten then changing his role/duty won't make him position, mark or tackle better, you just need a better defender.

If opponents are cutting inside with regular success then maybe the CM-D needs to become a DM-D and the AM-S drop to CM-A?  This could help make space in attack and help you defensively.

[LCFCEaves31]

26 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Bare in mind your playing Counter + Structured with a 4231 Wide.  You have 4 players in advanced positions, your giving up space between your defense and midfield and it sounds like that's being exposed by the opponents.  With so many advanced positions I would want to push up and press more rather than sitting like the default Counter mentality does.

Is the FB being caught out of position because of joining attacks and your getting counter attacked?  If he's back in position but just being beaten then changing his role/duty won't make him position, mark or tackle better, you just need a better defender.

If opponents are cutting inside with regular success then maybe the CM-D needs to become a DM-D and the AM-S drop to CM-A?  This could help make space in attack and help you defensively.

Again, I had meddled with 4-1-2-2-1 (with wingers) but we were still being counter attacked. I have tried to push much higher with control mentalities and continue to get counter attacked. 

My full back, especially left back seems to fall asleep, but since I changed to a much more defensive set up, he isn't always turning and running back to his own goal. With the play in-front of him, it seems to suit him. If he is out wide, players exploit the channel left in-between him and the nearest centre back, neither of whom take responsibility for the attacker (winger) making the run inside.

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Again, I had meddled with 4-1-2-2-1 (with wingers) but we were still being counter attacked. I have tried to push much higher with control mentalities and continue to get counter attacked. 

My full back, especially left back seems to fall asleep, but since I changed to a much more defensive set up, he isn't always turning and running back to his own goal. With the play in-front of him, it seems to suit him. If he is out wide, players exploit the channel left in-between him and the nearest centre back, neither of whom take responsibility for the attacker (winger) making the run inside.

Well I think i've exhausted the things I can suggest from what you've said.  Maybe make the BWM-S a BWM-D so you have both central midfielders holding deep to give even cover to both flanks?

The only further point I can think of is to bare in mind the effect playing Structured team shape has.  Your making your deeper players play a bit safer and your more advanced players (3 AM + ST) will be play a bit more riskier, especially if on attack duty.  This will make your team expand a bit (depending on roles+duties) and you already give up space in between your midfield and defense due to your formation.

I think you understand the issues you have, you just need to decide how you want/can balance your defensive issues with your attack.  I don't think there's much more I can add except answering any questions you have, maybe someone else has some ideas.  Hopefully you get it sorted 

[LCFCEaves31]

12 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Well I think i've exhausted the things I can suggest from what you've said.  Maybe make the BWM-S a BWM-D so you have both central midfielders holding deep to give even cover to both flanks?

The only further point I can think of is to bare in mind the effect playing Structured team shape has.  Your making your deeper players play a bit safer and your more advanced players (3 AM + ST) will be play a bit more riskier, especially if on attack duty.  This will make your team expand a bit (depending on roles+duties) and you already give up space in between your midfield and defense due to your formation.

I think you understand the issues you have, you just need to decide how you want/can balance your defensive issues with your attack.  I don't think there's much more I can add except answering any questions you have, maybe someone else has some ideas.  Hopefully you get it sorted 

Thanks for your suggestions. I am hopefully going to have time tonight to look at what I have and again review the next match fully to try and find a solution for this team. I hate giving up on saves after half a season! 

I do have one more question really, and that is on formations. I am not interested in downloading a 'super tactic', I want to work it out myself. But has anyone used 4-2-3-1 with wingers to any great deal of success recently? It was the done thing on FM15 which I what I last played (hence the thread title), but it seems to carry a few floors this time around. Not only that but would you say there is a perfect balance to get it right on player roles? A definite does and don't etc? Or is the emphasis this time around all about players within the squad and their role suitability? 

[LCFCEaves31]

So, I changed a couple of things. First thing was Standard to Flexible, what you said above about the gap made sense.

I made my left back FB (A) while my CM (D) covered for him.

Then changed AM to (A) and my other centre mid to just a simple CM (S).

There were a few things during the game I tweaked regarding player instructions and shouts but nothing too dramatic.

The structure and football played was much better... but I am never happy it seems! We won 4-0, and actually had some shots inside the oppositions penalty area which is a big step forward. However, according the stats, we only created 1 clear cut chance. I have added some images to show this.

A lot happier though and feels like there is something to work with here now, just needs some small refinements I feel.

[LCFCEaves31]

Lost 2-1 away at Peterbrough and drawn 2-2 at home to Millwall since. How does it rapidly turn around after two games? Still having 20+ shots and only 4-5 on target. So demoralising 

[LCFCEaves31]

Guys, need serious help. One minute I feel as though I understand the game, the next I am being beating by teams with 10 or in relegation. Nothing I tried with 4-2-3-1 has worked, so I started again with a 4-1-2-2-1 Wide. This couldn't beat a team in relegation (didn't help we missed a penalty when 1-0 up).

I need understand, what I don't understand (understand?). This is what I made and to me, in my head it looks balanced but at the same time a bit more adventurous than I have been previously (which isn't working consistently either). Does this look alarmingly wrong? Or am I on the right path.

[summatsupeer]

1 hour ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

Guys, need serious help. One minute I feel as though I understand the game, the next I am being beating by teams with 10 or in relegation. Nothing I tried with 4-2-3-1 has worked, so I started again with a 4-1-2-2-1 Wide. This couldn't beat a team in relegation (didn't help we missed a penalty when 1-0 up).

I need understand, what I don't understand (understand?). This is what I made and to me, in my head it looks balanced but at the same time a bit more adventurous than I have been previously (which isn't working consistently either). Does this look alarmingly wrong? Or am I on the right path.

Look at the combinations and options each player has with the instructions you've given.  Sure you can say things like "i have width", "I have cover" and "i have runners" but how does it all fit together?

For example lets look at the AP-A and the options you've given him.  He is told to be risky (attack duty), creative (playmaker) and play risky passes, but to whom?  You've told the team (including him) to play shorter and then told the team to play wider. That's reduced his instructed passing range but moved players further away from him.  Even without those two instructions what players are looking to attack space for him to pass to?  A winger and thats it until later in attacks when the WB's catch up to play, but by then defences will be organized.

Look at the front 5, you have 3 players looking to play risky passes often, 1 making forward runs often, 4 looking to run with the ball often, yet you've told your team to Pass Into Space, but to whom?  They're a lot more interested in running with the ball and passing into space then actually making runs.  Two of your 3 consistent runners are from deep and all 3 are wide, there's no central runners at all.  The BWM-S will make runs sometimes but compared to say a CM-S or BBM he's more conservative. 

[LCFCEaves31]

23 minutes ago, summatsupeer said:

Look at the combinations and options each player has with the instructions you've given.  Sure you can say things like "i have width", "I have cover" and "i have runners" but how does it all fit together?

For example lets look at the AP-A and the options you've given him.  He is told to be risky (attack duty), creative (playmaker) and play risky passes, but to whom?  You've told the team (including him) to play shorter and then told the team to play wider. That's reduced his instructed passing range but moved players further away from him.  Even without those two instructions what players are looking to attack space for him to pass to?  A winger and thats it until later in attacks when the WB's catch up to play, but by then defences will be organized.

Look at the front 5, you have 3 players looking to play risky passes often, 1 making forward runs often, 4 looking to run with the ball often, yet you've told your team to Pass Into Space, but to whom?  They're a lot more interested in running with the ball and passing into space then actually making runs.  Two of your 3 consistent runners are from deep and all 3 are wide, there's no central runners at all.  The BWM-S will make runs sometimes but compared to say a CM-S or BBM he's more conservative. 

This is why I am so confused... I read people using possession tactics, using playmakers, F9's pushing up and playing wide, with short passing. Yet I try and put something similar into practice and its completely wrong.

Back to the drawing board AGAIN.

As someone who's watched and played football all his life, I am so confused by the complexity of this game. At least doing this it proves I am still a million miles away from grasping it.

[summatsupeer]

44 minutes ago, LCFCEaves31 said:

This is why I am so confused... I read people using possession tactics, using playmakers, F9's pushing up and playing wide, with short passing. Yet I try and put something similar into practice and its completely wrong.

Back to the drawing board AGAIN.

As someone who's watched and played football all his life, I am so confused by the complexity of this game. At least doing this it proves I am still a million miles away from grasping it.

Why would you use "Pass Into Space" with a possession tactic that's on Control mentality?  Your team will be quite risky to begin with due to mentality, plus would be looking to play lots of risky passes and dribble at opponents, does that sound like a "possession" style?

To me you mixed a lot of penetrative attacking style with possession style causing a lack of what either needs to perform well.  I think you need to simplify it a little, get the roles+duties balanced then add PI/TI's to create the style you want.  Yes there's a lot of options but just try to keep things simple and consider what it does and what you need to complement it, this goes for roles+duties and instructions.  Plus try to keep in mind what your players are good at, going for a very specific style might not fit them.

[RTHerringbone]

summatsupeer is (as always) making a whole lot of sense. You'd do well to read each comment summatsupeer posted and then re-read it.

[LCFCEaves31]

14 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Why would you use "Pass Into Space" with a possession tactic that's on Control mentality?  Your team will be quite risky to begin with due to mentality, plus would be looking to play lots of risky passes and dribble at opponents, does that sound like a "possession" style?

To me you mixed a lot of penetrative attacking style with possession style causing a lack of what either needs to perform well.  I think you need to simplify it a little, get the roles+duties balanced then add PI/TI's to create the style you want.  Yes there's a lot of options but just try to keep things simple and consider what it does and what you need to complement it, this goes for roles+duties and instructions.  Plus try to keep in mind what your players are good at, going for a very specific style might not fit them.

The only reason I liked pass into space is because when we did previously have loads of possession in games, we never tried to find a player running in behind. It would be so congested in the middle and we'd end up going sideways before shooting from distance or giving it away and get hit on the counter attack. I'm assuming you cannot play pass into space with any possession tactic anymore? On FM15 I had loads of success taking Lecce from Serie C to Europa League with a similar system (perhaps the player roles were not the same but team instructions and set up were). 

I think I will browse through some more specific tactical posts and see what I can pick up.

[summatsupeer]

What works for one group of players won't automatically work for another even if you used an identical tactic unless the players are very similar.

You can use Pass Into Space and have more possession in a game, I wouldn't call it a "possession tactic" though. The possession would more likely be through the pressing and player quality.

It's hard to say why your player didn't take the pass, maybe he lacked the vision to see it?  Maybe his instructions put the pass out of range, maybe that player needed some PI's to make use of his ability to penetrate defences whilst the rest of the team play safer and feed him the ball?  Maybe the deep wide players needed to keep some depth rather than running/dribbling into dead ends, providing a safe recycling option to rotate the ball?

Lets take your last tactic, without knowing most of those players I feel like you need to let the skill players take more of the risks.  You could make the WB-S a FB-S and tell him to play less risky passes so he will feed the AP more and offer a deeper recycling option whilst providing width when its safe to do so.  I'd probably swap the HB-D since now he shouldn't need to drop into a back 3, maybe a DM-D.  With the DM-D doing more of the pressing the BWM-S could become a BBM-S or CM-S.  You could have the RB be a FB-S as well and have a AP-S + CM-A to provide a central runner sooner in moves or make the IF an attack duty. 

You should be able to change mentality and the roles+duties still combine, your just modifying the risk (could affect passing patterns to though).  You could do things like drop to Standard and change to Structured team shape, making those deeper players a bit safer and the front 3 more attacking, creating more depth to draw defenders out and not just wide. 

[LCFCEaves31]

Back again. I have been online to try and find some inspiration on 4-1-2-2-1, to see if I can find some roles for my central midfielders. As stupid as it sounds, I don't actually have a CM that can play/or is suited to that role. I have a central midfield full of BWM's, DLP's and AP's.

I then stumbled across this, a supposed expert, who is playing pass into space with retain possession and work into box... the very thing that is not supposed to work? His formation and roles scare the living day lights out of me, but my point is, how can something that looks so ridiculous but also something I was told a few posts up is ridiculous, be a 'super tactic'? Things like this is what confuses me the most about this game nowadays. I am lead to believe one thing (not just on this forum, but all over the web), put it into practice, it doesn't work, then told my tactics are all wrong...

By the way... this is in the written word, going to look like a rant... it isn't, I am just desperately trying to get my head around FM again. If I wasn't interested/bothered about trying to learn, I wouldn't be on here most nights.

Anyway... I think I need to scrap the 4-1-2-2-1 because as I said, I don't seem to have the players to suit the formation and roles. 4-2-3-1 seems better suited, it is just trying to find something that makes sense to me, that I can understand, but also work in practice.

[LCFCEaves31]

And sorry, one other question slightly off topic... can you get a player to lose one of their traits? Just realised my CM-d has a trait of 'Gets forward whenever possible'...

[summatsupeer]

That's not a possession style tactic, Control mentality, Fluid team shape, Higher Tempo, More Expression, Run at Defence, and 6 attack duties.... its not even remotely a possession style. Even with Work Ball Into Box, Pass Out of Defence and Shorter Passing that is super forward thinking risky play.  Retain Possession and Pass Into Space kinda cancel each other out so might as well not be selected.

With that all said, Fluid + More Expression will give the team lots of freedom.  The attack duty players will have total freedom to do what they want so won't actually play as the role appears, hence why generic roles are suggested for Very Fluid style tactics).

I would not say that is made by an expert, but then I wouldn't class myself as an expert so maybe there genius thinking is beyond me...