Finding a template for a decent 3-4-2-1

[Ji-Sung Park]

Greetings one and all,

I started a save with Brighton and made a very decent 4-4-2 which won me both the EFL Championship and the FA Cup the first season. It was a happy time, we were promoted and going into Europe at the earliest convenience. The board was so happy that they demanded a mid table finish and Europa League playoffs

Anyways, midway through the first PL season my 4-4-2 came undone. I simply could not strengthen the squad enough before the start of the season (finances in the red, low budget) so the defense was made of decent Championship players - but little else. So before the Christmas period I tried to solidify things at the back by creating a 3-4-2-1 - somewhat similar to that of Tottenham these days (I think). This has plugged the defensive leaks, but it is lacking going forward.

Before we go into the tactical aspects I feel it is crucial that my club DNA is explained. I look for mentally strong players, those with the ability to press high and chase the opponent. I want my team to close down and press. Primarily I look for either English or South American players (Argentine to be precise), those with the aggression and team work/work rate that is demanded to play like this. For realistic purposes mostly though

So, here is the baseline I have come up with.

My thought process behind this:

Standard/very fluid: When making the tactic the team was already familiar with this mentality. I also wanted the very fluid shape to keep it compact. This could be flawed - let me know!

Retain possession: I use this as a defensive shout basically. I want the players to swarm to opp, to add closing down basically.
Pass into space: This is for the time being highly experimental. Might be gone in time for the next match. I don't see any major differences either way to be fair.
Play out of defense: To avoid hoisting the ball.
Push higher up: I like the combo of very fluid and higher d-line, it seems to work wonders for compactness and overall defending.
Close down more: Like I said earlier, this is something I want my team(s) to do. We have the players to get this done.
Use tighter marking: Not something I ordinarily use, but I thought it could fit with the aforementioned wishes I have.
Roam: In an attempt to increase the attacking prowess, I tried this. More on this in the next chapter.

The boxed in fixtures are the matches I've used the 3-4-2-1. It seems very good defensively, but looking behind the numbers I've also been lucky. The latest match against Leicester was won through a penalty and I only had one CCC (the penalty). The shots/shots on target ratio is quite nice tho, around 45%. However, when viewing the matches I can see there are issues.

1. The attacking trio are relatively close together (space to attack issue?). I am struggling to get good performances from the two players in the AM strata. Also an issue with getting good players in these roles given low budget.
2. The overall movement seems a little off, in possession.
3. I had hoped the retain possession shout would give me a higher possession - I am so far only at 51-52% - whereas with my 4-4-2 I had above 60%.

Can you think of anything I could do here to improve the attacking aspect of this [solid] tactic?

Thanks guys.

[Jorsin]

I play a similar formation with Spurs and come across similar problems - I'm good at the back but the front 3 can't always break through the defence. My midfield 2 play one strata up and I use more standard CM (one defending, one supporting) - the latter dribbles more and I find that he gets forward to link up quite well. I have experimented with the 2 number 10s and generally go for an AP(s) and AM(a). Both are set to roam, both move into the channels (in the hopes that they won't occupy the same space) and both have more direct passing. The latter I hope to use to feed the AF (mixed reviews on that) but, though my ratings are not fantastic, both my AF and AM have a lot of goals between them.

[Ji-Sung Park]

Thanks Jorsin,

I read a bit in the Conte-thread here and it seems that people are not able to insert that Poch/Conte dominance with 3 at the back. Going over some highlights from Tottenham games now and the way they attack IRL using this formation is simply amazing to watch. That game against Chelsea for instance, yikes!

I will now try to experiment a little with the roaming and passing of the two AMs behind the striker. 

Which role do you give Kane?

Edit: Oh, and do you use Rose as a CWB on attack?

[Jorsin]

16 minutes ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

Thanks Jorsin,

I read a bit in the Conte-thread here and it seems that people are not able to insert that Poch/Conte dominance with 3 at the back. Going over some highlights from Tottenham games now and the way they attack IRL using this formation is simply amazing to watch. That game against Chelsea for instance, yikes!

I will now try to experiment a little with the roaming and passing of the two AMs behind the striker. 

Which role do you give Kane?

Edit: Oh, and do you use Rose as a CWB on attack?

I started Kane as a CF(s) but then adjusted him to AF(a). As there are 2 number 10s, I think he is better set up with attack rather than support. I have had Alli as both AM and SS, but I prefer AM because his PIs can be tweaked more. Eriksen tends to be AP(s). 

Both Rose and Walker are WB(a) by default, I tend to adjust depending on opposition. I need to test CWB more as I find WBs will try to fire crosses in earlier than I want them to (without much success). That could be a PPM issue, which I also need to check.

[Ji-Sung Park]

Quick update inbetween watching the PL:

 

Changed the passing and roaming for the two AMs. Now familiarity is also almost at full. Knockaert is going wild as the shadow striker.

I'm using Bojan Jokic and Ludwig Augustinsson as CWB on the left, as attacking, and a support duty on the right. It seems to flow a little better now. 

Edit:

[Jorsin]

I find that I get more 1-0 results than I would like, especially as I seem to dominate the games...however, they are three points and the quality of the football is pretty decent.

 

Glad to see that you are doing better - I may do the odd tweak either because of the opponent / setup or if I notice anything during the game.

[LPQR]

loving the new tendencies towards the 3-4-3/3-4-1-2/3-4-2-1. Got some stuff regarding these formations I might write about in the Florentine series when I get some time  

[Ji-Sung Park]

7 hours ago, Jorsin said:

Glad to see that you are doing better - I may do the odd tweak either because of the opponent / setup or if I notice anything during the game.

It's not nearly a finished work this. In the league results have been up and down. Lost 1-3 to Tottenham, then beat City 3-1 (should have won 6-1). I notice that the chances I create, albeit fewer than with other tactics, are real chances. They create decent goal scoring chances, eventhough the ME does not rate them as CCCs. 

I have to remind myself that my team is mostly made of EFL Championship players. The back three are still Goldson, Dunk and Duffy. I use Beram Kayal as the BWM, frequently use Solly March, Jamie Murphy and Knockaert. My one standout player is Mathew Ryan in goal, other than that is kinda meh.

Changed the striker to a complete forward on attack, just to see if he links up better. Will post an update as we finish the season!

24 minutes ago, LPQR said:

loving the new tendencies towards the 3-4-3/3-4-1-2/3-4-2-1. Got some stuff regarding these formations I might write about in the Florentine series when I get some time  

I would love to see your take on this, had a blast with the attacking Romanian formation.

[LPQR]

17 hours ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

Standard/very fluid: When making the tactic the team was already familiar with this mentality. I also wanted the very fluid shape to keep it compact. This could be flawed - let me know!

It's partly flawed I just touched on that in my latest thread

 

38 minutes ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

I would love to see your take on this, had a blast with the attacking Romanian formation.

 hopefully I'll get to writing about it at some point. So much to do... so little time

[Ji-Sung Park]

Season is over, here are the complete fixtures list using the 3-4-2-1:

Winning the Europa League is very nice. The two final league games I had to field weakened sides because of rest and suspensions. The two defensive midfielders gets loads of yellow cards

The squad:

[Jorsin]

I'm a few games off the end of my season and my TIs are slightly different.

Next time I get to log in I should finish the season (probably tomorrow) and I will post how I got on. I still think there are tweaks and improvements that can be made so it would be good to bounce ideas around with others that use the same formation.

How did your striker perform as CF? I'm also curious how your front 3 performed over the course of the season.

[Ji-Sung Park]

9 minutes ago, Jorsin said:

I'm a few games off the end of my season and my TIs are slightly different.

Next time I get to log in I should finish the season (probably tomorrow) and I will post how I got on. I still think there are tweaks and improvements that can be made so it would be good to bounce ideas around with others that use the same formation.

How did your striker perform as CF? I'm also curious how your front 3 performed over the course of the season.

The CF finished with 18 goals in all tournaments. By playing him as a CF he's more involved in the attacking play, but not really sure if that's the most suitable role. Maybe a good AF would get more goals.

Behind him I have Knockaert as a SS with direct passing. The SS for some reason has "more risky passes" hard coded, it is not always the best PI for him as he frequently comes deep to collect the ball - and then will try something outrageous and we lose the ball. The other one (March/Bernard Mensah on loan/Jamie Murphy) has roam, direct passes and channels.

Knockaert had 13 goals and 9 assists. The AM role got around 10-11 goals and 7-8 assists between them. 

That said, in some matches, especially against 4-1-2-2-1 formations they could be completely anonymous and get like 6.4 ratings. In that case I would move the AM(s) out as an inside forward on the wing where I have the CWB on support duty (the right side). It opened things up a little.

Another thing I noticed is that the CWB(a) would get to good pass/crossing opportunities but instead fire a speculative effort from a narrow angle. This is for sure down to the mentality and/or the overall quality of the player, there is room to experiment there.

[Almighty Thermos]

I'm replicating Spurs in my save and have gone structured and control. both midfielders in the DM strata but one as a DMCD (Wanyama) and one as a DMCS (Dembele) with PI's of dribble more and get further forward. Striker is AF with APS (Eriksson) and AMCA (Dele) behind. 

Playing an SS behind an AF is kind of counter-productive as usually an SS would have a deeper striker ahead of him which would make the SS the main scoring threat. Playing an SS and an AF would almost negate point of the SS.

[Ji-Sung Park]

48 minutes ago, Almighty Thermos said:

Playing an SS behind an AF is kind of counter-productive as usually an SS would have a deeper striker ahead of him which would make the SS the main scoring threat. Playing an SS and an AF would almost negate point of the SS.

Yeah, the AF was changed to a CF(a). I will try various things this season tho. I got Berahino cheap from LFC, so will try a few things there to get the SS more involved - or just change the SS role to an AM(a) with a few PIs.

Just played Bayern in the Super Cup and lost on penalties. Conceded a silly goal from a mistake and never could get another one. I used Dale Stephens as a B2B instead of BWM, so moved him up to the CM strata and that seemed to help a little on the transitions. We created more chances than Bayern and should have won without conceding. 

Judging by the post match analysis I read after the games 50% of our play is through the middle. 30% goes out to the CWB(a) and 20% to supporting CWB. I might try to tweak this a little - or see how role changes affect this.

[Jorsin]

So, with my first season over, I thought I would post how things went (apologies for lack of screenshots but they seem to come out blurry).

I'm playing as Spurs, with my only first team purchases being Thiago Maia and Jose Gaya.

Base Set-up by strata:

GK(d)

RCB(s) CB(c) LCB(s)

WB(a) x2

CM(d) + CM(s)

AP(s) + AM(a)

AF(a)

Fluid / Control

TIs:

Closing down much more; Prevent short GK distribution; Tighter marking; Play out of Defence

PIs:

CB - Close down less (looking to negate balls over the top)

CM(s) - Dribble more (to optimise Dembele)

AP(s) - More direct passes; Move into channel

AM(a) - Dribble more; Roam; More direct passes; more risky passes; Move into channels (last 2 to create movement between my front 3)

These were tweaked from time-to-time based on personnel availability and/or my opposition.

My results:

EPL = 3rd place; 79 points; GD +37; 9 points behind winners Arsenal. A couple of bad runs (including one at the end of the season) saw me fall away, but the gap to 4th was 10+ points.

ECC = Semi finals; Lost 1-2 agg to R Madrid. I was fairly happy with this run...a few close calls but a very respectable outing and I ran a strong Madrid side close.

FA Cup = 5th Round defeat away at Man U - Tight game ending in a 1-0 loss.

EFL Cup = 4th round defeat to Man C - A massively rotated team saw a 1-0 home defeat.

Aside from the ECC run, these are all around where Spurs would expect to be...but no improvement on last season (irl).

Verdict = Solid, but not impressive.

Stats for my front 3 (App; Gls: Asts; shot%; pass%; other):

Kane = 37 / 31 / 9 / 47% I'm fairly happy with these numbers. He did alternate between AF & CF (and even DLF a couple of times) but the return is fairly solid. My only gripe (aside from injuries) was he habit of being caught offside.

Alli = 48 / 22 / 6 / 45% / 83% I'm very happy with the number of goals, would like to have seen more assists but, looking at the league stats, the top number of league assists was 12. I did use SS a couple of times, but prefer AM(c).

Eriksen = 50 / 9 / 12 / 35% / 79% / Key passes a league high of 53 I would like to have seen more goals from him, but suspect that as AP(s) he tended to look for the pass more often than he really needed to.

Observations

I ended up tinkering with the set-up of my back 3 because, despite the cover command, the CB tended to get sucked out of position and a ball over the top + runner would catch me out (which is how I lost to Madrid). I suspect this is because I was mostly up against single strikers and they tended to play up against him. I haven't tested enough yet, but think that I either need to add a PI to hold position or adjust and make an outer CB the cover. If anyone can confirm or offer another theory, I'd be grateful.

My WBs were crossing from deep (blocked almost every time) far too often (they are hard-coded to byline crosses). I noticed that none of them had a PPM for taking on their man, so I am having them work on this to see if that helps. They were caught out several times at the back (which I accept as a risk of the strategy) but, largely, my outer CBs were able to get across and cover.

My CM(s) linked up well with the front 3 and always offered another option when the middle became inevitably crowded. 

My number 10s (AP + AM) were pretty hit-n-miss all season. The best movement I saw from my front 3 was after changing to V.Fluid + Attacking; Higher Tempo; and TI to Roam. This did, in the small number of games I tried it, cause other problems that may need to be addressed, but the movement for these 3 was decent and more along the lines of what I was hoping for.

My AF (especially when not Kane) was isolated more than I would have liked. When the ball was played up quickly, they ended up with nowhere to go and no-one to pass to. I used a few different roles and had some success with a deeper forward in terms of link up...but far less success with goals (again, not extensively tested and could be down to my replacements - neither of whom are ideal).  I would prefer my striker to lead the line and be my primary scorer and, to that end, would prefer an attacking mentality...but I'm open to changing that if it benefits the team as a whole.

 

Next Season

There are adjustments I would like to make to the style of play (I would prefer to see a higher tempo & more attacking) so I will schedule more friendlies to see what I can come up with.

There are some players to be shipped out and, hopefully, one or two youngsters / improvements to the first team that will allow me to mount a better challenge next time round.

[summatsupeer]

On 1/21/2017 at 10:58, Ji-Sung Park said:

Retain possession: I use this as a defensive shout basically. I want the players to swarm to opp, to add closing down basically.

Retain Possession does not affect how you play without the ball so no idea what this is about unless i've missed something.

I don't know why SI allow Retain Possession + Pass Into Space since one is reducing risky passes and the other is increasing it?

[Hunter T]

Why is standard/very fluid partly flawed?

 

[killacam0913]

I think Retain Possession might be making you too conservative offensively. On standard you're already medium at risk taking and then you're lowering it further. I would think you'd have higher possession though. It'd be interesting to see your tactics in more detail (screen shots, heat maps, etc.). 

 

How have you found the DC-d DC-c DC-d working with a high defensive line? I found that when I had a DC-d and DC-c and a high line that I was more susceptible to long balls than with just DC-d and DC-d for some reason.

[Jorsin]

13 hours ago, killacam0913 said:

I think Retain Possession might be making you too conservative offensively. On standard you're already medium at risk taking and then you're lowering it further. I would think you'd have higher possession though. It'd be interesting to see your tactics in more detail (screen shots, heat maps, etc.). 

 

How have you found the DC-d DC-c DC-d working with a high defensive line? I found that when I had a DC-d and DC-c and a high line that I was more susceptible to long balls than with just DC-d and DC-d for some reason.

I found that I tended to be caught out with balls over the top / between 2 of my defenders if I played a higher d-line. I spent most of the season with 2 stoppers and 1 cover (and dropped my d-line to normal) but found that my cover would often step ahead of the other 2 to challenge a striker in possession, leading to a gap in my defence that was then exploited by a runner (clearly I need quicker defenders...trying to find some that can play at the top level on the other hand...). I'm in my 2nd pre-season and I'm tinkering to see if I can use a higher line and just adjust my defence individually to still work effectively.

[Ji-Sung Park]

15 hours ago, killacam0913 said:

How have you found the DC-d DC-c DC-d working with a high defensive line? I found that when I had a DC-d and DC-c and a high line that I was more susceptible to long balls than with just DC-d and DC-d for some reason.

I got some ideas now from the latest replies.

The defense is rock solid, overall. Even with Championship material type players. I do however use a certain type of player - high aggression, team work, bravery and work rate. I find that having the typical tall, powerful CD is not really necessary as long as I've got these types of players.

[Ji-Sung Park]

16 hours ago, killacam0913 said:

I think Retain Possession might be making you too conservative offensively. On standard you're already medium at risk taking and then you're lowering it further. I would think you'd have higher possession though. It'd be interesting to see your tactics in more detail (screen shots, heat maps, etc.). 

 

Here's a snap from the latest league game against Watford:

This is pretty much how it looks when attacking, or in possession high up the pitch.

Before the season started, after the Super Cup loss to Bayern, I changed the following:

Removed 'retain possession'.
Moved the DM(s) to the CM strata and made him a BBM.
Changed the SS to AM(a) with no PIs.

The attacking play is now flowing more, we have about 25 shots on goal so far, with about 40% on target. 3 games, 3 wins. 

Defensive image - couldn't find any better at the moment:

I don't worry about crosses really. The main issue is being caught on the counter.

[Ghents]

I've been playing something similar with an asymmetric CF-S and an AM-S/SS behind him. I had the same issues with they either completely dominated or seemingly did nothing. I was just about to ask if you had tried changing the SS to an AM-A with the same PI minus more risky passes, as that was my plan.

[summatsupeer]

4 hours ago, Jorsin said:

I found that I tended to be caught out with balls over the top / between 2 of my defenders if I played a higher d-line. I spent most of the season with 2 stoppers and 1 cover (and dropped my d-line to normal) but found that my cover would often step ahead of the other 2 to challenge a striker in possession, leading to a gap in my defence that was then exploited by a runner (clearly I need quicker defenders...trying to find some that can play at the top level on the other hand...). I'm in my 2nd pre-season and I'm tinkering to see if I can use a higher line and just adjust my defence individually to still work effectively.

Good observation.  Regardless of instructions, if an opponent has the ball then usually the nearest play must move to engage.

If you need him to not engage you need a player to be conservative and to sit in front of him to engage ball carriers instead of the CB.

[killacam0913]

That attacking screen shot looks really promising. It seems like you've got things figured out pretty well.

I've been playing a 4-2-3-1 but I'm trying to add a 3-4-3 variation that's somewhat close. It's helpful to see all of the interest in 3-back systems.

[LPQR]

On 1/23/2017 at 16:19, Hunter T said:

Why is standard/very fluid partly flawed?

 

because fluidity doesn't necessarily relate to 'compactness'. Check out Ozil's quote in my latest thread or in his Wales tactic thread, he explains it beautifully

[Ji-Sung Park]

It's time to write an update.

Firstly, to LPQR and those interested in fluidity. I played the first half against Man Utd and the full game against Bayern on 'structured. For me to go structured needs a complete revamp of the system (I think). These three halves combined I had 7 shots. Now, against Mourinho that doesn't say a whole lot - and against Bayern that idiot Dale Stephens was sent off in the first half, so it went downhill from there. But, I can see that structured needs work for me. I will use a structured version in the 3rd slot and see later on how it goes.

Secondly, thanks for all the feedback so far. Jorsin's input gave me food for thought. The attacking trio needed work and it seems we have something to work with.

Removing 'retain poss' left me with only 45% possession and I wanted more, so I changed to 'short passing'. In an attempt at moving the ball quicker around and not dwelling I set 'dribble less' as a TI. I removed the 'roam' instruction to see how this would combine.

10 games in (early days, I know):

The two goals away at Soton were both screamers from 25 yards. Bayern game I explained earlier, the sending off left us hanging. Conceded 3 quick goals in the second half, deservedly so.

Going good, but, I can see some undeserved wins also. This is far from the real deal. Tottenham away we were dominated until I unticked "pass into space" and ticked "retain possession". We lost deservedly to Sevilla in Spain etc. I am stilling using mediocre players, so there's always that.

The tactic as it looks now:

The 'pass into space' shout is frequently removed and re-introduced. Depending on opposition. Against Stoke/Allardyce and 5 at the back I used it, against Chelsea away I removed it.

 

[Jorsin]

5 hours ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

It's time to write an update.

Firstly, to LPQR and those interested in fluidity. I played the first half against Man Utd and the full game against Bayern on 'structured. For me to go structured needs a complete revamp of the system (I think). These three halves combined I had 7 shots. Now, against Mourinho that doesn't say a whole lot - and against Bayern that idiot Dale Stephens was sent off in the first half, so it went downhill from there. But, I can see that structured needs work for me. I will use a structured version in the 3rd slot and see later on how it goes.

Secondly, thanks for all the feedback so far. Jorsin's input gave me food for thought. The attacking trio needed work and it seems we have something to work with.

Removing 'retain poss' left me with only 45% possession and I wanted more, so I changed to 'short passing'. In an attempt at moving the ball quicker around and not dwelling I set 'dribble less' as a TI. I removed the 'roam' instruction to see how this would combine.

10 games in (early days, I know):

The two goals away at Soton were both screamers from 25 yards. Bayern game I explained earlier, the sending off left us hanging. Conceded 3 quick goals in the second half, deservedly so.

Going good, but, I can see some undeserved wins also. This is far from the real deal. Tottenham away we were dominated until I unticked "pass into space" and ticked "retain possession". We lost deservedly to Sevilla in Spain etc. I am stilling using mediocre players, so there's always that.

The tactic as it looks now:

The 'pass into space' shout is frequently removed and re-introduced. Depending on opposition. Against Stoke/Allardyce and 5 at the back I used it, against Chelsea away I removed it.

 

I'm tinkering a little with mine in my 2nd preseason, but my formation is very similar (I have the 2 CM in the CM strata).

I also struggled with a structured shape - my front 3 really didn't like it and played poorly each time. It may be because I was still trying to put a system together, but found fluid made for much better movement. 

How are you finding the build-up play between your DMs & AMs? For me (playing a CM(d) and CM(s)) I found that the CM(s) comes forward to link with the AM / AP pretty well. As you are also playing Play out of Defence, are you finding that your CWBs are being utilised from deep, or can your DMs advance enough to link up with the dropping deeper AP? 

I'm also curious to see if your DMs also reduce the number of balls over the top of the defence (which I saw quite a bit of until I made a couple of them close down less in the PIs).

My outer CBs are on stopper duty and I find that they are good at moving out to challenge wide players if the WB is caught out of position. I would be curious to know how yours cope.

One odd thing I noticed with my WBs (and CWBs) - when I lost possession high up the field to the opposition FBs, my WBs would retreat immediately rather than challenge and try to win back possession - even if they were right next to the FBs. I haven't decided how much this bothers me, or how to go about fixing i do the same thing. l'd be curious to see if yours do the same thing. 

Please let us know how you fare when playing away to 'superior' teams. The away win at Spurs was a good result but I would not read too much into the EFL win at Chelsea...just because it's the EFL cup. I often found that I would end up with narrow losses (usually 1-0) away to the likes of Man U, R.Madrid (ECC), 2-0 at Arsenal...though one of those was a pen.

 

I wouldn't get too hung up on possession though - I remember (irl) Spurs going to Man C under AVB - had 53% possession and lost 6-0. In my save, I've just played a friendly at home to FC Salzberg (admittedly, not the most challenging of opponents but they have a similar rep to my Spurs team) - I ended the game with 48% possession, 25 shots, 20 on target and 11 of them went in. To, uh, throw a double entendre in there..."it's not the size of the possession, it's what you do with it" ^^

[Ghents]

4 hours ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

It's time to write an update.

Firstly, to LPQR and those interested in fluidity. I played the first half against Man Utd and the full game against Bayern on 'structured. For me to go structured needs a complete revamp of the system (I think). These three halves combined I had 7 shots. Now, against Mourinho that doesn't say a whole lot - and against Bayern that idiot Dale Stephens was sent off in the first half, so it went downhill from there. But, I can see that structured needs work for me. I will use a structured version in the 3rd slot and see later on how it goes.

Secondly, thanks for all the feedback so far. Jorsin's input gave me food for thought. The attacking trio needed work and it seems we have something to work with.

Removing 'retain poss' left me with only 45% possession and I wanted more, so I changed to 'short passing'. In an attempt at moving the ball quicker around and not dwelling I set 'dribble less' as a TI. I removed the 'roam' instruction to see how this would combine.

10 games in (early days, I know):

The two goals away at Soton were both screamers from 25 yards. Bayern game I explained earlier, the sending off left us hanging. Conceded 3 quick goals in the second half, deservedly so.

Going good, but, I can see some undeserved wins also. This is far from the real deal. Tottenham away we were dominated until I unticked "pass into space" and ticked "retain possession". We lost deservedly to Sevilla in Spain etc. I am stilling using mediocre players, so there's always that.

The tactic as it looks now:

The 'pass into space' shout is frequently removed and re-introduced. Depending on opposition. Against Stoke/Allardyce and 5 at the back I used it, against Chelsea away I removed it.

 

Ended up with almost the same result, but I've been toying with defensive wingers instead of CWB. They get forward just as much and seem to be better at tracking back. I've almost started to completely abandon wide players in the DM strata and just go ahead and put them at DW if I'm not going to keep them on the back four. You can really customize them with PI, too.

[Ji-Sung Park]

10 hours ago, Jorsin said:

How are you finding the build-up play between your DMs & AMs? For me (playing a CM(d) and CM(s)) I found that the CM(s) comes forward to link with the AM / AP pretty well. As you are also playing Play out of Defence, are you finding that your CWBs are being utilised from deep, or can your DMs advance enough to link up with the dropping deeper AP? 

I'm also curious to see if your DMs also reduce the number of balls over the top of the defence (which I saw quite a bit of until I made a couple of them close down less in the PIs).

My outer CBs are on stopper duty and I find that they are good at moving out to challenge wide players if the WB is caught out of position. I would be curious to know how yours cope.

One odd thing I noticed with my WBs (and CWBs) - when I lost possession high up the field to the opposition FBs, my WBs would retreat immediately rather than challenge and try to win back possession - even if they were right next to the FBs. I haven't decided how much this bothers me, or how to go about fixing i do the same thing. l'd be curious to see if yours do the same thing. 

Please let us know how you fare when playing away to 'superior' teams. The away win at Spurs was a good result but I would not read too much into the EFL win at Chelsea...just because it's the EFL cup. I often found that I would end up with narrow losses (usually 1-0) away to the likes of Man U, R.Madrid (ECC), 2-0 at Arsenal...though one of those was a pen.

I am experimenting with a DLP(s) instead of a BWM - but I see no major issues there. They link up just fine. The BMW seems to play some nice combos with the CWB on his side also.

So far I have not seen any over the top issues. In fact, zero, if memory serves. 

I am happy with the CD's as they are now, there aren't really any issues defending. I will keep an eye on it though. As for the CWBs, this is not something I have noticed. I haven't studied the matches in great detail either....

As far as superior teams go. The Bayern game was one of those. In the Super Cup I was very unlucky to lose (retain possession), but in the CL game I had no chance. Keep in mind that the CL game I was forced to field a weakened team.

Here is one against City, top of the table clash:

The next league game we go to Chelsea:

Lacazette grabs the winner in injury time. This was one of those games where the attacking 3 had a lousy game. Just really pathetic.

Bayern at home:

So there is work to be done. Number one issue is to get constant performances from the 3 guys up front. 

[Ji-Sung Park]

10 hours ago, Ghents said:

Ended up with almost the same result, but I've been toying with defensive wingers instead of CWB. They get forward just as much and seem to be better at tracking back. I've almost started to completely abandon wide players in the DM strata and just go ahead and put them at DW if I'm not going to keep them on the back four. You can really customize them with PI, too.

I just don't see any major issues with my CWB's now. Gaya tho, he is really outstanding and could probably play everywhere and get good performances. 

[Ji-Sung Park]

My main striker Berahino has got this very annoying PPM; tries first time shots. In no way or form is this a good quality for a striker, unless you have Batistuta like qualities. Often he will fire away from way out and ruin a potentially good attack. Worse than shoot from distance imo.

[Jorsin]

6 hours ago, Ji-Sung Park said:

My main striker Berahino has got this very annoying PPM; tries first time shots. In no way or form is this a good quality for a striker, unless you have Batistuta like qualities. Often he will fire away from way out and ruin a potentially good attack. Worse than shoot from distance imo.

Ask your coaches to train him against doing that...it won't always be successful, but it's worth a shot.

[xantheose]

On ‎25‎.‎01‎.‎2017 at 12:08, Ji-Sung Park said:

The 'pass into space' shout is frequently removed and re-introduced. Depending on opposition. Against Stoke/Allardyce and 5 at the back I used it, against Chelsea away I removed it.

 

What's your reasoning behind this?

[LPQR]

On 1/25/2017 at 10:08, Ji-Sung Park said:

Firstly, to LPQR and those interested in fluidity. I played the first half against Man Utd and the full game against Bayern on 'structured. For me to go structured needs a complete revamp of the system (I think). These three halves combined I had 7 shots. Now, against Mourinho that doesn't say a whole lot - and against Bayern that idiot Dale Stephens was sent off in the first half, so it went downhill from there. But, I can see that structured needs work for me. I will use a structured version in the 3rd slot and see later on how it goes.

of course you'd need to re-think your system, you can't just change from very fluid to structured with the same PI's/Ti's and expect results. A structured approach relates to a completely different idea of football.

[xantheose]

Started a game with Spurs, using a  3-4-2-1 formation, trying to emulate Pochettino's 3-4-2-1.

 

I used Standard mentality because I think Spurs players don't take many risks in their passing, then adjusted the defensive line, the pressing (through PIs) and added Work Ball into the Box (pretty much what Spurs do) & Pass from Defence (might mispell it) because Spurs play from the back.

The player roles were like this.

GK-D, CB-X, CB-D (More direct passing), CB-X, WB-A, WB-A, CM-S (Dribble More, Shoot Less), DLP-D, AM-A (Dribble More, Move into Channels), AP-S (Move into Channels), CF-A.

I chose Fluid because I felt that Flexible is too plain and Fluid might give us the little bit of flair we need to break defensive teams and could help with the pressing.

 

So into the friendliess, we beat Caen 4-1 after dominating them, drew with Marseille, lost against Juventus and drew with Celtic.

As the season started, we beat Palace at home 3-0, lost to City away 0-1, hammered Everton 4-0 and drew away at Burnley 0-0.

I stopped playing the game after these four games as I feel there is still a lot of work to do even though, on the paper, we should do well, I mean the player roles are somewhat similar to what Spurs players play.

I find it hard to break defensive teams for some reason and my two AMCs barely support the wingbacks or move into channels, they generally remain central and do not press. The pressing was very weak to be honest.

I'm still looking for ideas how to improve this tactic and beat teams we supposed to and get better results against favorites.

 

[Jorsin]

1 hour ago, xantheose said:

Started a game with Spurs, using a  3-4-2-1 formation, trying to emulate Pochettino's 3-4-2-1.

 

I used Standard mentality because I think Spurs players don't take many risks in their passing, then adjusted the defensive line, the pressing (through PIs) and added Work Ball into the Box (pretty much what Spurs do) & Pass from Defence (might mispell it) because Spurs play from the back.

The player roles were like this.

GK-D, CB-X, CB-D (More direct passing), CB-X, WB-A, WB-A, CM-S (Dribble More, Shoot Less), DLP-D, AM-A (Dribble More, Move into Channels), AP-S (Move into Channels), CF-A.

I chose Fluid because I felt that Flexible is too plain and Fluid might give us the little bit of flair we need to break defensive teams and could help with the pressing.

 

So into the friendliess, we beat Caen 4-1 after dominating them, drew with Marseille, lost against Juventus and drew with Celtic.

As the season started, we beat Palace at home 3-0, lost to City away 0-1, hammered Everton 4-0 and drew away at Burnley 0-0.

I stopped playing the game after these four games as I feel there is still a lot of work to do even though, on the paper, we should do well, I mean the player roles are somewhat similar to what Spurs players play.

I find it hard to break defensive teams for some reason and my two AMCs barely support the wingbacks or move into channels, they generally remain central and do not press. The pressing was very weak to be honest.

I'm still looking for ideas how to improve this tactic and beat teams we supposed to and get better results against favorites.

 

You say you adjust pressing through PIs, what's your closing down TI set at?

Whilst I agree that Spurs' play tends to lean towards working the ball into the box (annoyingly so sometimes), we will also see the CBs spraying the ball high up fields to the WBs to launch an attack (something I have not yet replicated in the game unfortunately). 

The AMCs do tend to stay too central - even with roaming & moving into channels. I have tried toying with setting up as a narrow IF, but that doesn't replicate them well enough either. I'm part-way through my second season and I'm still not entirely happy with the movements. I have also used a wider width which helped a little (at least they spent less time running into each other). 

I agree with the pressing - the lack of options on the PIs isn't great imo. 

I don't think there's any one solution to break down weaker teams - it all depends on how they are setting up. If your WBs are being outnumbered - either play more through the middle, have them come narrower, or set the TI to roam in the hopes that they will then find a team mate to pass to. 

Friendlies really don't offer a great insight into how the tactic will perform in the league (at least, that's my experience). The players do need more time to become familiar with it though. 

I wouldn't consider Dembele or Wanyama to be DLPs, so would consider changing that. I used a CM(d) in my first season. 

[xantheose]

1 hour ago, Jorsin said:

You say you adjust pressing through PIs, what's your closing down TI set at?

Whilst I agree that Spurs' play tends to lean towards working the ball into the box (annoyingly so sometimes), we will also see the CBs spraying the ball high up fields to the WBs to launch an attack (something I have not yet replicated in the game unfortunately). 

The AMCs do tend to stay too central - even with roaming & moving into channels. I have tried toying with setting up as a narrow IF, but that doesn't replicate them well enough either. I'm part-way through my second season and I'm still not entirely happy with the movements. I have also used a wider width which helped a little (at least they spent less time running into each other). 

I agree with the pressing - the lack of options on the PIs isn't great imo. 

I don't think there's any one solution to break down weaker teams - it all depends on how they are setting up. If your WBs are being outnumbered - either play more through the middle, have them come narrower, or set the TI to roam in the hopes that they will then find a team mate to pass to. 

Friendlies really don't offer a great insight into how the tactic will perform in the league (at least, that's my experience). The players do need more time to become familiar with it though. 

I wouldn't consider Dembele or Wanyama to be DLPs, so would consider changing that. I used a CM(d) in my first season. 

I have coupled Standard mentality with a Slightly Higher Defensive Line and added Close Down More PI to the top three attacking players (striker & AMCs). I tested with WBs closing down. hoping that they would close the wing lanes, but I don't think that's a very smart idea.

I think Alderweireld is the CB who tries long passes to players high up the field, the other two are not exactly looking to play that (Dier might do it in Toby's absence). I'll test to see how much Play out of Defence affects the play, but I don't think it has much impact.

I have also prepared a 4-2-3-1 like Spurs used to play last season but I haven't given it a go.

Dembele is a CM in my formation, Wanyama is instructed to play short passes even with the role he's given so I am not telling him to make a contribution in breaking teams up, but rather tell him to stay close to the defenders. CM (D) might press too much for my liking, but I'll test it out.

[PAFC]

Reading this with interest, thanks to the contributors.

I am using a 3-4-2-1 with Spurs as well.

We are currently (narrowly) top of the league after 29 games and still active in the Champions League and FA Cup. We are quite threadbare in the DC position after I felt compelled to sell both Davies and Vertonghen in the window, so I am anticipating that the wheels will come off at some point, however as a minimum we need to qualify for the Champions League.

I decided to have use the CM and AM strata for the central midfielders, as this seemed appropriate with the squad I had available to me,

After experimenting, we ended up with Standard/Control mentality and a fluid shape.

The team instructions are: Play Out of Defence, Push Higher Up, Close Down More and Tighter Marking.

Player Roles are:

GK: Goalkeeper Defend

CBR: Central Defender Defend

CB: Central Defender Cover

CBL: Central Defender Defend

RWB: Wing Back Attack

LWB: Wing Back Attack

CMR: Central Midfield Defend

CML: Deep Lying Playmaker Support

AMCR: Attacking Midfield Support

AMCL: Attacking Midfield Attack

STC: Complete Forward Support

 

There are no player instructions, far too complicated for me

I strengthened the squad with a DC (Manolos) and WBL (Ghoulam) in the summer window, both recommended by the Director of Football, however he was unable to find a suitable DC in the January window, so I took the opportunity to add an AMC (Bernardo Silva). In addition to Vertonghen and Davies, I had a reasonably good offer for Tom Carroll, so I let him go as well hoping that Onomah and Winks can step up as MC's and Carter-Vickers can do the same as a DC.

I learnt a lot from this thread, thank you, and so back to hanging on by my fingernails for the rest of the season.

[Jorsin]

23 minutes ago, PAFC said:

Reading this with interest, thanks to the contributors.

I am using a 3-4-2-1 with Spurs as well.

We are currently (narrowly) top of the league after 29 games and still active in the Champions League and FA Cup. We are quite threadbare in the DC position after I felt compelled to sell both Davies and Vertonghen in the window, so I am anticipating that the wheels will come off at some point, however as a minimum we need to qualify for the Champions League.

I decided to have use the CM and AM strata for the central midfielders, as this seemed appropriate with the squad I had available to me,

After experimenting, we ended up with Standard/Control mentality and a fluid shape.

The team instructions are: Play Out of Defence, Push Higher Up, Close Down More and Tighter Marking.

Player Roles are:

GK: Goalkeeper Defend

CBR: Central Defender Defend

CB: Central Defender Cover

CBL: Central Defender Defend

RWB: Wing Back Attack

LWB: Wing Back Attack

CMR: Central Midfield Defend

CML: Deep Lying Playmaker Support

AMCR: Attacking Midfield Support

AMCL: Attacking Midfield Attack

STC: Complete Forward Support

 

There are no player instructions, far too complicated for me

I strengthened the squad with a DC (Manolos) and WBL (Ghoulam) in the summer window, both recommended by the Director of Football, however he was unable to find a suitable DC in the January window, so I took the opportunity to add an AMC (Bernardo Silva). In addition to Vertonghen and Davies, I had a reasonably good offer for Tom Carroll, so I let him go as well hoping that Onomah and Winks can step up as MC's and Carter-Vickers can do the same as a DC.

I learnt a lot from this thread, thank you, and so back to hanging on by my fingernails for the rest of the season.

I've started toying with a DLP in my second season - mostly because a lot of teams play with a DM (though I use it in place of the CM(d)) and that seemed to nullify Eriksen as an AP. So far it seems to be working, but it's far to soon to tell. 

Barring any major injuries, you should be ok in the CB department. I ended up selling Wimmer due to lack of playing time (and he wasn't very effective when he did come in). I've found Tom Carroll to be fairly effective as an CM(s), so I haven't considered selling him just yet.

I found that anyone other than Kane up front was not available so, if you;re alts are still Janssen or Son, wrap Kane up in cotton wool!

Have you had any issues conceding from balls over the top of your defence? I added Lucas from A.Madrid in the summer of my 2nd season to add some acceleration to my side...seems to help. 

[PAFC]

Yes. We have conceded loads of goals from balls over the top. Manolos is a physical specimen though, as opposed to a technical footballer, so he has shored up in this area. I am tempted to try the stopper roles as you suggest.

I see the success that Ji Sung Park had using the DM strata, with Brighton, which trumps anything we are doing with Spurs to be fair, and I was aiming towards that, when I could recruit sufficiently, however maybe I shouldn't fix what isn't broken.

I agree, with Kane as well, Premier League top scorer. I have just let Son go out on loan to Shaktar, he is third choice STC and not very good in the AMC positions, although his work rate and application are excellent. Hoping he can  do well and we can sell him on for a good fee.

Struggling to find a back up for Kane, agree Jansen isn't really up to it. The board never seems to dip in their pocket to sustain or reward success unlike the other members of the top 6. Also every game after a Champions League game is a harrowing experience, so hats off to the coding team for making that so realistic as well. Still hanging in.

Semi Final of the FA Cup (Man Utd) and Quarter Final of the Champions League (Juventus) will be acid tests, although Watford are providing a stern test at present.

 

[Jorsin]

41 minutes ago, PAFC said:

Yes. We have conceded loads of goals from balls over the top. Manolos is a physical specimen though, as opposed to a technical footballer, so he has shored up in this area. I am tempted to try the stopper roles as you suggest.

I see the success that Ji Sung Park had using the DM strata, with Brighton, which trumps anything we are doing with Spurs to be fair, and I was aiming towards that, when I could recruit sufficiently, however maybe I shouldn't fix what isn't broken.

I agree, with Kane as well, Premier League top scorer. I have just let Son go out on loan to Shaktar, he is third choice STC and not very good in the AMC positions, although his work rate and application are excellent. Hoping he can  do well and we can sell him on for a good fee.

Struggling to find a back up for Kane, agree Jansen isn't really up to it. The board never seems to dip in their pocket to sustain or reward success unlike the other members of the top 6. Also every game after a Champions League game is a harrowing experience, so hats off to the coding team for making that so realistic as well. Still hanging in.

Semi Final of the FA Cup (Man Utd) and Quarter Final of the Champions League (Juventus) will be acid tests, although Watford are providing a stern test at present.

 

Funnily enough, I had Juve in my first season - 2-2 away (having been 2-0 up); 2-2 at home (having been 2-0 up) won it in extra time 

I set the CB(c) to close down less and that seemed to help a little as well with balls over the top. 

I've also toyed with the idea of pulling my CM back one strata. I think, for that to be effective, one of them would need to be a Regista to get forward and support the front 3 (plus a creative player in a deeper position would hopefully help against more defensive teams). It's not exactly how Spurs play irl but it could be effective. 

[Armistice]

I'm testing the 3-4-2-1 on my Spurs save and I still find it a little hard to beat defensive sides. My set-up looks like this.

 

GK, CB (D), BPD (C), CB (D), WB (A) x2, CM (S) (Dribble More, Fewer Risky Passes, Take Less Shots), CM (D), AM (A) (Dribble More, Roam from position), AM (A) (Dribble More, More Risky Passes, Roam from Position), CF (A), on Standard + Fluid. I can't seem to understand what is the problem or how to fix it, it seems like the players are rushed to take the shot, lack support or they're marked by the opposition so they can't pick up a pass (most often).

[PAFC]

Wheels did come off slightly, had a spell of 7 games, where we lost 4 and drew 1.

Ended the season as runners-up in the Premier League and Champions League and Semi-Finalists in the FA Cup (lost in the last minute of extra time), so as in my view this is an overachievement will focus on the short term on improving the squad as opposed to tinkering with the tactic too much. The tinkering option remains, if plan A is unsuccessful.

[Jorsin]

14 hours ago, nightwalker22 said:

I'm testing the 3-4-2-1 on my Spurs save and I still find it a little hard to beat defensive sides. My set-up looks like this.

 

GK, CB (D), BPD (C), CB (D), WB (A) x2, CM (S) (Dribble More, Fewer Risky Passes, Take Less Shots), CM (D), AM (A) (Dribble More, Roam from position), AM (A) (Dribble More, More Risky Passes, Roam from Position), CF (A), on Standard + Fluid. I can't seem to understand what is the problem or how to fix it, it seems like the players are rushed to take the shot, lack support or they're marked by the opposition so they can't pick up a pass (most often).

I've struggled against defensive sides but I don't think there is a single solution. What are your TIs? If they are parking the bus, untick 'play into space' (as there is no space). By having your 3 front players attacking, you have nobody really dedicated to supplying chances (in my experience, the WBs are don't have a high enough success rate with crosses to be viable. The front 3 are also fairly easy to mark. What I want to test is to drop the CM(d) into the DM strata (if the game is very one-sided maybe even make him a regista), drop the 2 AMs back to the CM strata as CM(a) and told to get forward more. The theory is that they will reach the box late and be harder to pick up. I would also change the CF(a) to DLF(s) to draw out defenders and ensure that he isn't too isolated.

 

13 hours ago, PAFC said:

Wheels did come off slightly, had a spell of 7 games, where we lost 4 and drew 1.

Ended the season as runners-up in the Premier League and Champions League and Semi-Finalists in the FA Cup (lost in the last minute of extra time), so as in my view this is an overachievement will focus on the short term on improving the squad as opposed to tinkering with the tactic too much. The tinkering option remains, if plan A is unsuccessful.

I went through 2 such spells in my first season - very frustrating and left me in third at the end.

[Armistice]

11 hours ago, Jorsin said:

I've struggled against defensive sides but I don't think there is a single solution. What are your TIs? If they are parking the bus, untick 'play into space' (as there is no space). By having your 3 front players attacking, you have nobody really dedicated to supplying chances (in my experience, the WBs are don't have a high enough success rate with crosses to be viable. The front 3 are also fairly easy to mark. What I want to test is to drop the CM(d) into the DM strata (if the game is very one-sided maybe even make him a registration), drop the 2 AMs back to the CM strata as CM(a) and told to get forward more. The theory is that they will reach the box late and be harder to pick up. I would also change the CF(a) to DLF(s) to draw out defenders and ensure that he isn't too isolated.

My TIs were Slightly Higher Defensive Line, Prevent Short GK Distribution and Work Ball Into the Box (sometimes). My bad I have used an AM (A) (Alli) and an AM (S) (Eriksen).

[Jorsin]

7 minutes ago, nightwalker22 said:

My TIs were Slightly Higher Defensive Line, Prevent Short GK Distribution and Work Ball Into the Box (sometimes). My bad I have used an AM (A) (Alli) and an AM (S) (Eriksen).

I assume the opposition would be playing with either 5 at the back or 5 in midfield. I would probably look to increase the tempo + with 5 at the back...add short passing + possibly retain possession (I've not tried it as I assumed it reduced risk, but apparently this could create a quick one-touch playing style); with 5 in midfield I may try changing my passing to more direct to see if I can simply bypass them altogether; couple that with pass into space might work. 

[vasilli07]

Read this thread and went to look up some articles about Spurs 3-4-2-1. This is the version I created.

The front 3 has close down more and move into channels PI. Wingbacks has stay wider.

The play is not as exciting as real life Spurs but it's certainly efficient. I have only conceded 4 goals so far where 3 of them are from set pieces as seen in the analysis.

A few things that I noticed, most crosses came from the right side. I guess it's because Eriksen is an AP on the right. Lamela seems to be more effective as the second striker.

[Jorsin]

4 hours ago, vasilli07 said:

Read this thread and went to look up some articles about Spurs 3-4-2-1. This is the version I created.

The front 3 has close down more and move into channels PI. Wingbacks has stay wider.

The play is not as exciting as real life Spurs but it's certainly efficient. I have only conceded 4 goals so far where 3 of them are from set pieces as seen in the analysis.

A few things that I noticed, most crosses came from the right side. I guess it's because Eriksen is an AP on the right. Lamela seems to be more effective as the second striker.

I'm interested in the fact that you play counter. What sort of possession and attempts on goal are you seeing?

I'm surprised that you aren't being caught out by balls over the top given the flat 3 and a higher line - or are your defenders simply able to recover?

Where does Alli fit into this the DLP?

[Fox]

7 hours ago, vasilli07 said:

Read this thread and went to look up some articles about Spurs 3-4-2-1. This is the version I created.

The front 3 has close down more and move into channels PI. Wingbacks has stay wider.

The play is not as exciting as real life Spurs but it's certainly efficient. I have only conceded 4 goals so far where 3 of them are from set pieces as seen in the analysis.

A few things that I noticed, most crosses came from the right side. I guess it's because Eriksen is an AP on the right. Lamela seems to be more effective as the second striker.

What skin is that?

[vasilli07]

3 hours ago, Jorsin said:

I'm interested in the fact that you play counter. What sort of possession and attempts on goal are you seeing?

I'm surprised that you aren't being caught out by balls over the top given the flat 3 and a higher line - or are your defenders simply able to recover?

Where does Alli fit into this the DLP?

Counter is not really counter attacking football. It's a risk mentality. Counter + flexible team shape is just nice. Players won't overcommit and take unnecessary risks.

I'm on FMT so I can't see the overall possession stats. Did a manual count myself, the team averaged around 55.75% possession.

I don't see the team being caught out as the team doesn't close down together. I have only instructed the front 3 to press more. I believe alot of people are using a high mentality(comes with high d-line and closing down) like control, high d-line and more closing down TIs. That's why they are likely to be caught out by balls over the top as the d-line and closing down are near its max.

Alli normally plays as the CM or AM role. Lamela normally gets the nod at AM as he is more effective. Wanyama/Dier/Dembele plays as DLP as I just want him to help pick up the ball from the back.