Primary Playmaker?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I have a question regarding playmakers which hopefully somebody who has access to the inner workings of the tactics creator - "under the hood" - may be able to help with.

When using multiple playmakers, am I correct in recalling that you'll automatically prioritise one playmaker above the other? If so, is there a way to change the priority?

Scenario

I'm playing a 4-3-3 with a DM-MC-MC triangle in midfield, using two playmakers. My MCL is an Advanced Playmaker (Attack) and my MCR is a Deep-lying Playmaker (Support).

I am trying to achieve having my Deep-Lying Playmaker as the "heartbeat" of the team very much in a controlling role, and my Advanced Playmaker more of a creative "spark", moving into space and playing dangerous balls through the defence.

My DLP should have more touches, but my AP should be more direct. PPMs and the visible instructions reflect that.

What's actually happening is that the AP is getting about 20% more of the ball and I am observing players opting to pass to the AP over the DLP in situations where the DLP is in a better position. It's not horrendous but it means the AP is receiving the ball too early and often in less space and is therefore more difficult to create a chance.

My thought it that perhaps there's a priority where the AP is prioritised over the DLP?

Could be imagining it though  It's still early days and tactical familiarity is not that high and there are one or two players playing in unconventional roles so that's an equal explanation but I'm just curious to hear from the experts.

Cheers.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

I should also mention that changing the AP to an MC(A) solves the problem and my DLP see's much more of the ball. Unfortunately it creates a new problem in that the MC(A) is too direct and not quite as creative.

[A.Pierfrancesco]

What about assign  "gets further forwards" PI to the AP-A in order to position him higher in the pitch and so give more space to the DLP? Or what about change your AP-A to a CM-S instead of a CM-A?

[westy8chimp]

5 minutes ago, A.Pierfrancesco said:

What about assign  "gets further forwards" PI to the AP-A in order to position him higher in the pitch and so give more space to the DLP? Or what about change your AP-A to a CM-S instead of a CM-A?

yep ... or change either dlp or ap strata ... plenty of workarounds available using role PI/TI ... still nice to know if/what the priority is as per the OP. playing AP in amc role never quite gives them the requisite space to work with.

[yonko]

If I recall correctly from past editions, the playmaking priority was Trequartista, then AP, then DLP. But that was before the introduction of roles like F9, Enganche, Regista and RPM. Hence, the priority might have changed, plus there is some tweaks to roles from before.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Yea, it's very difficult to speculate. Given the description you'd expect roaming playmaker to be a pretty high priority given he's described as the "heartbeat" but as we know with SI that's probably not worth the imaginary paper it's written on.

I'd expect the deeper playmaker to attract more of the ball but take fewer risks, and the advanced playmaker take more risks but see less of the ball as he's in a more advanced area, closer to defence etc.

@Cleon, @Rashidi or @herne79 may be able to clear this one up with some insider knowledge?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Oh and in addition - playing a MC(A) has "gets forward more" hard coded, which I don't want. MC(S) has a lower mentality, which I also don't want (with a lower mentality I wouldn't mind him seeing more of the ball, but he wouldn't be as direct).

[herne79]

2 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

When using multiple playmakers, am I correct in recalling that you'll automatically prioritise one playmaker above the other? If so, is there a way to change the priority?

As far as I'm aware, there is no way to physically re-prioritise playmakers in game.  However, I believe that your tactical settings can influence who players may tend to favour.

For example, using low risk mentality (Contain, Defensive, Counter) will see your more defensive players playing (clearing) the ball long.  That may favour an AP, as the DLP will tend to sit deeper.  Likewise the Team Shape may have a similar influence - Fluid / Very Fluid will see greater creative freedom and higher mentality for your defenders, so potential longer passes again.  Further, perhaps you even have a BPD as a central defender and/or a central defender with the PPM to Try Long Range Passes.  And then of course you have the "More Direct Passing" Team Instruction.  I don't know if you are using any of those instructions, but they are the ones that immediately spring to mind.

To try to favour a DLP instead, greater restrictions on long(er) range passing may be in order - play out of defence, shorter passing, retain possession, mentality/team shape changes, telling the GK to pass to the DLP and so on.

However, that may be going against the style of play you are aiming for.  Possibly the most efficient way of changing is to change the AP role to a CM role.  I know you said you tried the CM(A) and found it to be too direct for your needs, so what about the CM(S) role with adjusted PIs to mirror an AP?  It's an extremely flexible role and can be made to look like pretty much anything you require, but without the "ball magnet" attraction of a playmaker.

[Dr. Hook]

30 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Yea, it's very difficult to speculate. Given the description you'd expect roaming playmaker to be a pretty high priority given he's described as the "heartbeat" but as we know with SI that's probably not worth the imaginary paper it's written on.

I'd expect the deeper playmaker to attract more of the ball but take fewer risks, and the advanced playmaker take more risks but see less of the ball as he's in a more advanced area, closer to defence etc.

@Cleon, @Rashidi or @herne79 may be able to clear this one up with some insider knowledge?

Yeh, I am not named in your list, but I know a little something about it . So the playmakers are ball attracters as coded, but within that is some sense. If you use a DLP in the DM slot, and a AP in the AM slot for example as I often do, what I do not see happening very often is passes bypassing the DLP to go straight to the AP. So the priority is contextual- players are "told" to look for the playmaker, but also "told" to adhere to their instructions, and then you have personal attributes and PPM/Traits in the mix, so it's not as simple as which role gets a priority. Who attracts more of the ball is entirely dependent on your tactical scheme: where players are, who is moving off the ball, what options are there, passing instructions, mentality, shape, and also, how the opposition is lining up against you.

EDIT: as I was typing, Herne posted pretty much the same thing!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

As far as I'm aware, there is no way to physically re-prioritise playmakers in game.  However, I believe that your tactical settings can influence who players may tend to favour.

For example, using low risk mentality (Contain, Defensive, Counter) will see your more defensive players playing (clearing) the ball long.  That may favour an AP, as the DLP will tend to sit deeper.  Likewise the Team Shape may have a similar influence - Fluid / Very Fluid will see greater creative freedom and higher mentality for your defenders, so potential longer passes again.  Further, perhaps you even have a BPD as a central defender and/or a central defender with the PPM to Try Long Range Passes.  And then of course you have the "More Direct Passing" Team Instruction.  I don't know if you are using any of those instructions, but they are the ones that immediately spring to mind.

To try to favour a DLP instead, greater restrictions on long(er) range passing may be in order - play out of defence, shorter passing, retain possession, mentality/team shape changes, telling the GK to pass to the DLP and so on.

However, that may be going against the style of play you are aiming for.  Possibly the most efficient way of changing is to change the AP role to a CM role.  I know you said you tried the CM(A) and found it to be too direct for your needs, so what about the CM(S) role with adjusted PIs to mirror an AP?  It's an extremely flexible role and can be made to look like pretty much anything you require, but without the "ball magnet" attraction of a playmaker.

So there is an actual priority that's favouring the Advanced Playmaker? that's not just my mind?

MC(S) comes with a lower mentality and I really need this guy to link with my attack, play a reasonably free role and really try to create chances. Looking at the roles I think the CM(A) is going to get too far forward - with the high mentality and runs - whilst the MC(S) would be too conservative.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

7 minutes ago, Dr. Hook said:

Yeh, I am not named in your list, but I know a little something about it . So the playmakers are ball attracters as coded, but within that is some sense. If you use a DLP in the DM slot, and a AP in the AM slot for example as I often do, what I do not see happening very often is passes bypassing the DLP to go straight to the AP. So the priority is contextual- players are "told" to look for the playmaker, but also "told" to adhere to their instructions, and then you have personal attributes and PPM/Traits in the mix, so it's not as simple as which role gets a priority. Who attracts more of the ball is entirely dependent on your tactical scheme: where players are, who is moving off the ball, what options are there, passing instructions, mentality, shape, and also, how the opposition is lining up against you.

EDIT: as I was typing, Herne posted pretty much the same thing!

Hmm interesting.

Sounds like the question may be more about the rest of the structure rather than the roles, specifically.

[Dr. Hook]

Just now, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Hmm interesting.

Sounds like the question may be more about the rest of the structure rather than the roles, specifically.

It is true that there is a "priority" in the sense of the code; the AI goes through it's decision tree, and there has to be an order to it, but then that is massively modified by everything else layered over the top of it.

[herne79]

11 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

So there is an actual priority that's favouring the Advanced Playmaker? that's not just my mind?

MC(S) comes with a lower mentality and I really need this guy to link with my attack, play a reasonably free role and really try to create chances. Looking at the roles I think the CM(A) is going to get too far forward - with the high mentality and runs - whilst the MC(S) would be too conservative.

I don't know what your system is, but I guess your team mentality will be influencing the CM(A) and CM(S) mentality.

The CM(A) can certainly be more of a runner from deep / additional attacking player, although I'd expect a CM(S) to get forward nicely towards the edge of the box to support attacks (especially with the Get Forward PI selected).  I guess that depends on how quickly you are looking to play the ball forward however and so whether he's able to keep up with the play.

And exclude @Dr. Hook at your peril !  He'll just invite himself to the party anyway .

[Dr. Hook]

1 minute ago, herne79 said:

And exclude @Dr. Hook at your peril !  He'll just invite himself to the party anyway .

I know, I'm always turning up where I'm not wanted or needed- no wonder I have no social life

[Rashidi]

I like playing with multiple playmakers in fact, I have a system that successfully uses 2 playmakers. The priority system may be hardcoded but it depends on a lot of other factors too. For instance, your passing style, mentality and the roles and duties that surround the playmaker(s).  I have an upcoming video of Torino vs Real Madrid where we demolish them with a double playmaker combination. In that game I was specifically setting up my system so that we had options in two types of transitions. I was actually rather surprised at how it worked. 

Going into it, I knew that triggering actions through the playmakers would be key, however for that to work successfully I needed to get the balance right between Mentality, Defensive line, Roles and duties and how each role was meant to interact with the others during each phase of play.

Here you have to lay down the overall system you want to use. How each playmaker gets triggered will be subject to which part of the transition you are in, ie. where the ball is on the pitch and how you have designed the rest of the team around your playmakers.  I actually played the match on overload and then did the same thing again against Juventus again on Overload mentality.  Mentality plays a part but so do the rest but there are so many things that go into it. Your overall design of the system is the real key. You can control how the playmaker performs of that I am 100% certain, however this depends largely on how you adapt to the system you are facing and that should be very obvious.

[aderow]

Ö-zil, what you're experiencing is one of the reasons I ended up making my DLP the deepest midfielder in my tactic. It actually solved 2 issues for me; keeping my playmakers from playing on top of each other (at times) and having my DLP behave more like the control center like I wanted him to.

[grimness]

Maybe this still holds.

[sipsi]

Well there are many many factors affecting your teams ball magnet. In previous games can't recall exactly which versions was; we're able to choose the playmaker from a box on the tactics.

Currently it's pretty much up to what herne79 said before. There are also more factors in detail which i'd like to add. The reputation of the player, the friendship levels of players and cohesion level of player. Also while you have the ball with any player of the pitch "off the ball" and "anticipation" level of the playmaker is also in count.

For example if you have a deep lying playmaker with 15 off the ball and 15 anticipation, on the other hand you have an advanced playmaker with 12 off the ball and 12 anticipation. Even your tactics and everything is set constant, your deep lying playmaker will most likely be get the ball most often. But be careful here I'm not saying this is the exact thing to happen, I'm just pointing out that this is also a factor affecting the mechanics of the gameplay also.

What I want to add also is, I'm quite sure you all also experienced this... After 2 or 3 seasons you begin to see that your team begins to play the exact game you have in mind from the beginning. I suppose that's how it happens. This is like a band trying to play a song. Every musician is good at their own instruments at first but at the beginning nobody knows who is the real frontman. But after practise and concerts the frontman shows himself orchestrating the whole band.

Most of my games the real trick comes sooner or later but not that fast even you have the best instruments or acoustic studio. Other than that it's pretty much your tactic, strategy, formation etc. but the real melody you want to play just settles in time without requiring any further instruction or touch.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

10 hours ago, grimness said:

Maybe this still holds.

So to confirm with the mods - it sounds like this is still the case?

Interestingly - I've made some changes to alter the 'flow' of possession to hit the deep-lying playmaker more and he is now hitting over 100 touches in most games, which is more than satisfactory.

My latest challenge is that my advanced playmaker is regularly hitting 90 - sometimes 100 - but he's now doing more ball circulation rather than directly creating chances which is interesting. Any inputs welcome but not the purpose of the thread. Couple more games of experimentation and I'll crack it.

[A.Pierfrancesco]

22 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

So to confirm with the mods - it sounds like this is still the case?

Interestingly - I've made some changes to alter the 'flow' of possession to hit the deep-lying playmaker more and he is now hitting over 100 touches in most games, which is more than satisfactory.

My latest challenge is that my advanced playmaker is regularly hitting 90 - sometimes 100 - but he's now doing more ball circulation rather than directly creating chances which is interesting. Any inputs welcome but not the purpose of the thread. Couple more games of experimentation and I'll crack it.

What about player PPM's? I think "tries killer balls more often" will help your AP to try that key pass instead of simply retain the possession in certain situation. Also "Likes to switch ball to other flank" will probably help as he will try to change the focus of the attack and hopefully find one of the wide players in good position to create problems or force the other team to stretch the pitch and create more space.

About Ti's, Exploit the middle with Pass into space could help to increase the number of through balls and focus to plays in the middle.

Also what can help is the role and duty of your wide players, an Inside Forward will make some diagonal runs that will help your AP to find them if he plays through balls.

[Dr. Hook]

6 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

So to confirm with the mods - it sounds like this is still the case?

Interestingly - I've made some changes to alter the 'flow' of possession to hit the deep-lying playmaker more and he is now hitting over 100 touches in most games, which is more than satisfactory.

My latest challenge is that my advanced playmaker is regularly hitting 90 - sometimes 100 - but he's now doing more ball circulation rather than directly creating chances which is interesting. Any inputs welcome but not the purpose of the thread. Couple more games of experimentation and I'll crack it.

There is a coding aspect to prioritize playmakers, but the order of it is not certain, only because I believe (would like to make certain) that it is more situationally dependent than it used to be. The ME has come an extraordinarily long way since WWFan posted that- that was for FM 12, so we are five versions and thousands of ME changes along now. I think the larger point is what you are discovering now with the DLP, than even if there is some code that prioritizes which playmaker gets used, the user can change things to create what he wants. As regards the AP, you can add more direct passing to him which will help with the penetrating passes. I have done this with my AP(S). I do have him trained to "try killer balls often" as well, but the role already gets "more risky passes" attached, so not sure it is all that helpful- probably in one or two cases where he would otherwise play a safe pass.