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What determines Youth Recruitment level?

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Over on the FM Career Updates board, 'youth only' challenges have become increasingly popular, in which you take over a club (often from a poor country, such as San Marino or the Faroe Islands), and try to make them - as well as the national team - as strong as possible. The catch is, you can't buy any players - every player that plays for your club has to come through the youth system. There are a few facilities that will have a big impact on the success of this challenge (most of these descriptions are taken from Cleon's website):

 

Training Facilities: Pretty straightforward. How good the facilities that your senior squad train on are. The higher the level, the faster the rate of development for your senior squad players.

Youth Facilities:  The quality of the training facilities used by the players currently in your youth team. Good youth facilities will help your youth players improve more. Essentially, Youth Facilities are just the equivalent of Training Facilities, but for your youth team. Nothing to do with the quality of youth players that come in through your youth intakes.

Junior Coaching:  The quality of the coaching of the lower levels of your youth system. Basically, this represents coaching of youth players before they’re generated as 14/15 year-olds. In terms of game mechanics, high junior coaching will increase the average current ability of your youth players when they’re first generated. Junior Coaching = higher CA.

So far, only Junior Coaching has any impact on the quality of youth players that come through your intakes (the training and youth facilities just determine how quickly they can grow once they are at your club). But what about Youth Recruitment? Well, according to Cleon's website:

Youth Recruitment:  Increases likelihood of recruiting high PA youth and increasing how far your youth recruitment network will reach (low recruitment means you will probably only get local players who aren’t recruited by bigger clubs, high recruitment means you will get top talent from all over the world). Youth recruitment, however, is also affected by your club’s reputation.

There's also this quote:

 

"Youth recruitment rating is not only tied to finances, but it is also dependent on club location and nationality as these will affect the recruitment possibilities in the nearby regions. Having all the money in the world will not suddenly make the local talent pool amazing or even much better than it has been previously, but having more money and better facilities means you can make the most out of the talent that you can recruit to your youth system.

Look at it this way (an extreme example I know), if you took the richest team in the world with the best facilities and coaching staff and placed the team into Greenland, would you expect them to churn out golden generations of newgens all the time?"

 

So, Youth Recruitment determines the PA of your youth intakes - the higher the Youth Recruitment level, the higher the PA of your generated players will be. Youth Recruitment also appears to be affected by location, nationality, club reputation and club finances. This all makes sense.

One problem, though. Over on FMCU, some people have found that despite having by far the highest reputation and most money in the country, the option to upgrade youth recruitment just wasn't appearing for them - whilst AI managed teams with a significantly lower reputation and budget were able to upgrade their youth recruitment levels.

Now, I'm not saying the AI are cheating - far from it. Instead, I'm wondering just exactly what it is that's triggering certain teams to be able to upgrade their youth recruitment, whilst preventing others who appear to be better positioned. In an attempt to find out, I'm going to run some tests with the editor using Claasen's San Marino file to see if I can work out how important certain factors are in upgrading Youth Recruitment, and if there are any 'surprising' factors that influence the ability to upgrade it.

Why am I using San Marino? A few reasons:

It's a tiny country. Location of the teams shouldn't matter, considering they're all basically on top of each other. You're not going to find better players in the north of San Marino than the south, considering it's about a 20 minute car journey.

All the teams start off at basically the same level, and none of them have the option to upgrade youth recruitment at the start of the game.

I just like the place.

 

Here's how the teams in San Marino start off at the beginning of the game:

4a614504f9949d10eca87c29e6ccfb2e.png

All very similar. Juvenes Dogana are the only ones with significantly better facilities, although Fiorentino and Cailungo do both have slightly better Youth Recruitment than the rest of the pack.

 

I have no idea how this is going to go, or if I'm even going to learn anything from doing this. It's worth a try, anyway.

Edited by Jupjamie

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I've used four teams for these tests - Cailungo, San Giovanni, Fiorentino and La Florita. Gives us a decent range of starting facilities.

 

So the first test I did was to bump their reputations all up to 5000, and change nothing else from the default starting state. The lowest reputation value possible is 0, and the highest is 10,000, so 5000 is bang smack in the middle. I presumed that this should be enough to at least improve a Youth Recruitment Rating from 2 to 3, but that wasn't the case.

When reputation is at 5,000 for these teams but nothing else has been changed, their youth recruitment can still not be upgraded.

I ran another test, bumping their reputation all the way up to 10,000. Once this happened, their youth recruitments could all be upgraded. I wonder if 5,000 reputation plus money in the bank changes anything?

Well, 10m in the bank isn't enough. Even with 5,000 reputation + 10m, the Youth Recruitment still can't be upgraded from 2 to 3. Considering the maximum value is 20, that's pretty surprising. What about if we just chuck all the money in the world at them?

We've given San Giovanni 124m, which is the most they're allowed in the editor, as well as the 5,000 reputation. Does that change anything?

It does. With 124m and 5,000 reputation, the option to upgrade Youth Recruitment is there. This means that finances must have some impact on youth recruitment. 

However, when I go to bump San Giovanni's Youth Recruitment rating from 2 to 3 and then start a new game to try and improve it in there, the option is no longer there. Even with 124m in finances and 5,000 reputation, the highest that a San Marinese club's Youth Recruitment can go is to level 3.

How high can it go with maximum reputation but no money?

6.

With 10k reputation but the default value for money, the maximum value that Youth Recruitment can get upgraded from is 5 to 6. Considering with maximum money (for a San Marinese club, anyway) and half reputation, Youth Recruitment could still only go to 3, it doesn't seem like finances are a huge deal. I can't test what maximum finances but default reputation does, because the maximum finances a team can have with default reputation is barely over 5m - at which point, I'd assume that Youth Recruitment can't change at all.

 

I need to think about what tests to run next, but for now, it seems like:

Reputation has a fairly significant impact on Youth Recruitment.

Finances do affect it, but seemingly only slightly.

Presumably, location, population and youth level are all big influences, but as those are things out of the user's control. I'm not sure how much point there is in testing those right now.

 

@Ceching You Out @Jimbokav1971 @BoxToBox @Keano16 @Chantu9Y @Warg92 @Notorious SPC @Cardiovascular @Shevchenko @ManUtd1, you guys may be interested in this. 

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Interesting, so currently in my save at 2029(in the Faroe Islands), I have a rep of 2.5* out of 5*, I don't know what that is in the numbered, but exactly half the stars makes sense that I'm 5000 give or take. I also have over 70m in the bank, which in the grand scale isn't much, but am the 76th highest value club in the world with a value of 112m. The club is ranked at 57th, though that's close to updating.

At the moment, our Recruitment is Basic, which I'm assuming is 2, and we haven't had the upgrade option for 3 or so years.

In the same league as me, I've been keeping an eye on all the other clubs, I know none started with more than Basic Recruitment(I can double check if needed, still have the day one save), and looking today, three of them have upgraded past Basic to Fairly Basic(one only recently), all three have far inferior finances and reputation. One of them is a semi-pro side.

None of these have good facilities, compared to mine which are maxed.

They have upgraded Junior Coaching, some to Average, one to Above Average. I do have the edge here, I had the option to upgrade a few times, and have it to Excellent. Last upgrade was the same day as the Recruitment, and hasn't been available since.

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11 minutes ago, BoxToBox said:

Interesting, so currently in my save at 2029(in the Faroe Islands), I have a rep of 2.5* out of 5*, I don't know what that is in the numbered, but exactly half the stars makes sense that I'm 5000 give or take. I also have over 70m in the bank, which in the grand scale isn't much, but am the 76th highest value club in the world with a value of 112m. The club is ranked at 57th, though that's close to updating.

At the moment, our Recruitment is Basic, which I'm assuming is 2, and we haven't had the upgrade option for 3 or so years.

In the same league as me, I've been keeping an eye on all the other clubs, I know none started with more than Basic Recruitment(I can double check if needed, still have the day one save), and looking today, three of them have upgraded past Basic to Fairly Basic(one only recently), all three have far inferior finances and reputation. One of them is a semi-pro side.

None of these have good facilities, compared to mine which are maxed.

They have upgraded Junior Coaching, some to Average, one to Above Average. I do have the edge here, I had the option to upgrade a few times, and have it to Excellent. Last upgrade was the same day as the Recruitment, and hasn't been available since.

Actually, basic is between 3-5. Fairly basic is 6-8. Can you tell me what cities the ones with Fairly Basic are from?

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2 minutes ago, Jupjamie said:

Actually, basic is between 3-5. Fairly basic is 6-8. Can you tell me what cities the ones with Fairly Basic are from?

The pro sides, one is Vikingur Gota from Nordragota(pop-527), the other is IF from Fuglafjordur(pop-1,511) and the semi pro side is HB from the capital Torshaven(pop-12,648).

We're(Giza/Hoyvik) also from Torshaven. Now, those populations are probably out of date since they're old and from Wikipedia, but they're probably not massively so.

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Ecstatic to see someone testing this based on all the recent discussion! :applause:

Other potential variables, some of which you can't get to in the editor:
* Population -- set the population of the respective cities at different levels (100-250k, 250-500k, etc.) 
* Game importance -- not directly editable, but could find a country with the right settings and test clubs with same reputation and money
* Economic development -- same as above
* League reputation/ranking
* Season tickets/average attendance -- proxy for local popularity, although there may be a better way to do this

There's still some je ne sais quoi lurking out there though, since none of the above variables explain why other clubs in Luxembourg can upgrade while my Avenir Beggen can't. Although even if we can't figure out the unknowns, understanding the above (plus their relationship with balance and reputation) might give us a better idea of the clubs/countries/leagues where youth challenges quickly approach impossibility.

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1 hour ago, BoxToBox said:

The pro sides, one is Vikingur Gota from Nordragota(pop-527), the other is IF from Fuglafjordur(pop-1,511) and the semi pro side is HB from the capital Torshaven(pop-12,648).

We're(Giza/Hoyvik) also from Torshaven. Now, those populations are probably out of date since they're old and from Wikipedia, but they're probably not massively so.

Well, I just looked at a map to see if any of those cities were bordering on bigger places, not realising that the 'Islands' part was a bit of a clue. Doh! 

Populations check out in the editor. Not a clue how Gota are doing it!

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1 hour ago, Ceching You Out said:

Ecstatic to see someone testing this based on all the recent discussion! :applause:

Other potential variables, some of which you can't get to in the editor:
* Population -- set the population of the respective cities at different levels (100-250k, 250-500k, etc.) 
* Game importance -- not directly editable, but could find a country with the right settings and test clubs with same reputation and money
* Economic development -- same as above
* League reputation/ranking
* Season tickets/average attendance -- proxy for local popularity, although there may be a better way to do this

There's still some je ne sais quoi lurking out there though, since none of the above variables explain why other clubs in Luxembourg can upgrade while my Avenir Beggen can't. Although even if we can't figure out the unknowns, understanding the above (plus their relationship with balance and reputation) might give us a better idea of the clubs/countries/leagues where youth challenges quickly approach impossibility.

League Reputation! I didn't even think of that. That's my next test.

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6 minutes ago, Jupjamie said:

Well, I just looked at a map to see if any of those cities were bordering on bigger places, not realising that the 'Islands' part was a bit of a clue. Doh! 

Populations check out in the editor. Not a clue how Gota are doing it!

If you count the area outside the city proper, the Torshaven region goes up to 16k, 32% of the countries population.

It boggles the mind that we can't have recruitment on par with a town of 500.

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When League Reputation is 200 (the max) but no other factors are changed - no Youth Recruitment upgrades available.

200 League Reputation + 5k Team Reputation - no Youth Recruitment upgrades available.

200 League Reputation + 10k Team Reputation - Still only goes up to a maximum of 6.

 

League Reputation, therefore, has ZERO affect on Youth Recruitment.

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26 minutes ago, Jupjamie said:

When League Reputation is 200 (the max) but no other factors are changed - no Youth Recruitment upgrades available.

200 League Reputation + 5k Team Reputation - no Youth Recruitment upgrades available.

200 League Reputation + 10k Team Reputation - Still only goes up to a maximum of 6.

 

League Reputation, therefore, has ZERO affect on Youth Recruitment.

Buh-whaaaa? I suppose it only has an indirect impact via club reputation and TV money then. We can cross that one off the list!

 

Another possibility -- chairman attributes e.g. for business, ambition, etc.?

Edited by Ceching You Out

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Looking at the pre-game editor, "Game Importance" could be key.

In our cases, San Marino, Luxembourg and the Faroes are all "completely useless".

That doesn't explain the ability of the other clubs to pull ahead of us though.

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4 minutes ago, BoxToBox said:

Looking at the pre-game editor, "Game Importance" could be key.

In our cases, San Marino, Luxembourg and the Faroes are all "completely useless".

That doesn't explain the ability of the other clubs to pull ahead of us though.

I have a feeling Game Importance, Youth Level, Population and Location are all going to be big factors. But there's two reasons I'm not looking at those right now:

1: They can't be changed. Nothing we can do about them.

2: They're the same for every team in the league. They don't explain why other teams are getting the upgrades we're being denied.

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You could always try asking SI.

fyi, that quote in the OP about Youth Recruitment was originally written by someone from SI:

5 hours ago, Jupjamie said:

"Youth recruitment rating is not only tied to finances, but it is also dependent on club location and nationality as these will affect the recruitment possibilities in the nearby regions. Having all the money in the world will not suddenly make the local talent pool amazing or even much better than it has been previously, but having more money and better facilities means you can make the most out of the talent that you can recruit to your youth system.

Look at it this way (an extreme example I know), if you took the richest team in the world with the best facilities and coaching staff and placed the team into Greenland, would you expect them to churn out golden generations of newgens all the time?"

 

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One thing that I think could really affect it is Nation Rep. I had a good couple of years with the San Marino NT and not long after this I was able to improve the youth recruitment.

Does AI have a slightly different way of increasing? I imagine its not the same ''board request" system.

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Getting off that first rung of limited recruitment seemed to be difficult too. Im tempted to start a SM save again now and see how it goes!

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10 hours ago, herne79 said:

You could always try asking SI.

fyi, that quote in the OP about Youth Recruitment was originally written by someone from SI:

 

 if I have the richest team, best coaches, highest facilities, youth level and a great head of youth development... should I expect golden generations?

I am intrigued... I played over 40 seasons with Arsenal in a FM16 save ... and nearly every youth intake was poor. i.e. 30 players.. 20 would have potential 1-2 stars... 5 would be 2-3 stars ... and of the remaining 5 players maybe 1 or 2 per year/every 2 years would be 4-5 star potential.

is it possible, should I hope for, years where the intake might give me 5+ players with 4-5 * potential?

 

I've always wondered if it's something under the hood that some clubs just start with great youth intakes but you can't influence it at your club (to that extent) during your saves. i.e. porto, benfica, sporting, ajax, santos, Marseille, lyon ...  

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f102e555663286117ec2df418a7ff6b1.png

This was my furthest in update from my Fiorentino save on FM16 - NT rep isn't on there but you can see by the NT ranking where it was likely to have increased significantly.

 

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Am I missing a trick here? Taking the example of the Faeroes, whether the local league has the reputation of the English Premier League or an Alaskan outpost, your recruitment pool is still the same few dozen spotty-faced 13 or 14 year old lads who happen to be growing up there. They're not going to fly in from Scotland or Denmark or anywhere - you only have that very limited pool to recruit from. Again, regardless of how many millions TV companies or chairmen sink into training facilities and coaching - it's still the same few kids.

Now if your club was based in Hackney Marshes and you sunk billions into it, kids who otherwise would be hoovered up by your Arsenals and Chelseas will come first to you, so your youth recruitment will eventually hit 20. As they say, it's all about location, location, location!

 

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1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

 if I have the richest team, best coaches, highest facilities, youth level and a great head of youth development... should I expect golden generations?

I am intrigued... I played over 40 seasons with Arsenal in a FM16 save ... and nearly every youth intake was poor. i.e. 30 players.. 20 would have potential 1-2 stars... 5 would be 2-3 stars ... and of the remaining 5 players maybe 1 or 2 per year/every 2 years would be 4-5 star potential.

is it possible, should I hope for, years where the intake might give me 5+ players with 4-5 * potential?

 

I've always wondered if it's something under the hood that some clubs just start with great youth intakes but you can't influence it at your club (to that extent) during your saves. i.e. porto, benfica, sporting, ajax, santos, Marseille, lyon ...  

The star ratings are relative to other players at your club.

If you are 40 years into an Arsenal save, the betting is you probably have exceptionally talented players in your first team squad in every position.  As an example, lets say they all have a PA of at least 170. 

When you get your youth intake, your new youngsters' potential is being compared to your world class first team squad.  As a yard stick, 2.5 stars is roughly the on par rating.  So a 2.5 star potential rated youngster may actually have a PA in the ball park of 170.  A 3 star youngster might be slightly higher than 170.  And so on.

It's all relative.  A 2.5 star youngster in my West Ham save in the first youth intake will be in the region of 140 PA.  Once I've developed West Ham into a team of world class players like your Arsenal squad, a 2.5 star newgen could be in the region of 170 PA.  Getting a 5 star newgen under those circumstances will be rarer than hens teeth, and practically guaranteed to be the next Messi.

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13 hours ago, herne79 said:

You could always try asking SI.

fyi, that quote in the OP about Youth Recruitment was originally written by someone from SI:

 

Ah, thanks Herne. I didn't notice that thread.

2 hours ago, smp20 said:

One thing that I think could really affect it is Nation Rep. I had a good couple of years with the San Marino NT and not long after this I was able to improve the youth recruitment.

Does AI have a slightly different way of increasing? I imagine its not the same ''board request" system.

Good shout. Nation Rep is definitely something to test. I imagine that they do have a slightly different way of increasing it, but it shouldn't have overly different requirements to the user's way of doing it.

 

2 hours ago, smp20 said:

f102e555663286117ec2df418a7ff6b1.png

This was my furthest in update from my Fiorentino save on FM16 - NT rep isn't on there but you can see by the NT ranking where it was likely to have increased significantly.

 

Just from that table - I wonder if average attendances may be a factor?

 

2 hours ago, phnompenhandy said:

Am I missing a trick here? Taking the example of the Faeroes, whether the local league has the reputation of the English Premier League or an Alaskan outpost, your recruitment pool is still the same few dozen spotty-faced 13 or 14 year old lads who happen to be growing up there. They're not going to fly in from Scotland or Denmark or anywhere - you only have that very limited pool to recruit from. Again, regardless of how many millions TV companies or chairmen sink into training facilities and coaching - it's still the same few kids.

Now if your club was based in Hackney Marshes and you sunk billions into it, kids who otherwise would be hoovered up by your Arsenals and Chelseas will come first to you, so your youth recruitment will eventually hit 20. As they say, it's all about location, location, location!

 

No, you're completely right. One thing I would say on that though as is San Marino is literally inside Italy, I'd expect that that would help their Youth Recruitment ability due to location - but in general, you'd expect that a team from the Faeroes are going to be very limited based on the fact that they're from the Faeroes. 

The thing is, that limitation should be the same for all teams in that country, but that doesn't seem to be the case. AI teams have been able to upgrade their Youth Recruitment whilst the significantly stronger human controlled teams haven't been, and I'm wondering if there's a reason behind it.

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52 minutes ago, herne79 said:

The star ratings are relative to other players at your club.

If you are 40 years into an Arsenal save, the betting is you probably have exceptionally talented players in your first team squad in every position.  As an example, lets say they all have a PA of at least 170. 

When you get your youth intake, your new youngsters' potential is being compared to your world class first team squad.  As a yard stick, 2.5 stars is roughly the on par rating.  So a 2.5 star potential rated youngster may actually have a PA in the ball park of 170.  A 3 star youngster might be slightly higher than 170.  And so on.

It's all relative.  A 2.5 star youngster in my West Ham save in the first youth intake will be in the region of 140 PA.  Once I've developed West Ham into a team of world class players like your Arsenal squad, a 2.5 star newgen could be in the region of 170 PA.  Getting a 5 star newgen under those circumstances will be rarer than hens teeth, and practically guaranteed to be the next Messi.

This is correct .. I know the star system is linked to the comparative nature of the squad. I guess it's more the rarity of the great players that I get frustrated with. I miss the 90s where everyone was a worldy instead of just a handful of players. Remember CMs where you had a plethora of strikers that would score 30+ goals a season for fun ... Kluivert, Raul, Vieri, Crespo, Larson, Shearer, Yorke, Cole, Weah, Shevchenko, Baggio, Viali, Ronaldo, Owen, Bergkamp, Salas, Rivaldo, Fonseca, Koller, Batistuta ...

have players gotten worse or just not as amazed by footballers as I get older. Seems like I have so few world class players to choose from nowadays.

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4 hours ago, smp20 said:

f102e555663286117ec2df418a7ff6b1.png

This was my furthest in update from my Fiorentino save on FM16 - NT rep isn't on there but you can see by the NT ranking where it was likely to have increased significantly.

 

One, I'd forgotten just how ridiculously fast you progressed in your San Marino save. Two, I'm struggling to reconcile these data with my save -- in 29/30 you're able to go Fairly Basic with a Club Rep at 2*, Leauge Rep at 2*/55th, average attendance at 3.8k. We're a decent margin better in all those categories yet still at Limited; the only factor substantially worse is NT Rank. Surely it's not that important to club development, is it? Suppose we (and by we, I mean @Jupjamie :D) will have to test.

Or alternatively, there was a substantial change between FM15 (me) and FM16 (you). Always a possibility but it's the kind of thing typically mentioned somewhere as a feature -- "more realistic facilities requests!".

 

2 hours ago, Jupjamie said:

Just from that table - I wonder if average attendances may be a factor?

Attendances haven't had a direct impact for me in Luxembourg. We're been averaging over 20K per game for more than a few seasons now. Maybe a more indirect effect we're missing? I'm stuck on NT Rank, as much as that would be a surprise.

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I'd be surprised if the Youth Recruitment system had changed from 15 to 16. Seems the type of thing you develop and then leave alone unless you're making a major overhaul.

Looks like NT Rep (and world ranking) are my next two big things to test, definitely. Hopefully I'll get enough time to do that today.

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4 hours ago, Jupjamie said:

The thing is, that limitation should be the same for all teams in that country, but that doesn't seem to be the case. AI teams have been able to upgrade their Youth Recruitment whilst the significantly stronger human controlled teams haven't been, and I'm wondering if there's a reason behind it.

Bingo, this is the real problem.

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So, next thing to test: Nation Reputation.

When Nation Reputation is upgraded to the maximum but nothing else is touched: No Youth Recruitment upgrades are available.

When San Marino's ranking is bumped up to #1 in the world with default reputation - No Youth Recruitment upgrades available.

When San Marino's ranking is bumped up to #1 in the world with maximum reputation - No Youth Recruitment upgrades available.

When Nation Reputation is upgraded to the maximum and San Giovanni are given maximum club reputation - No Youth Recruitment upgrades available (beyond level 6, which is the same as without the Nation Reputation boost).

When Nation Reputation is upgraded to the maximum, San Marino are #1 in the world and the club have maximum reputation - No Youth Recruitment upgrades available beyond level 6.

 

Conclusion: Well, it doesn't look like Nation Reputation or Nation Ranking have any impact. I did not expect that at all.

Edited by Jupjamie

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8 minutes ago, Ceching You Out said:

I'm surprised as well; I thought that might've been our silver bullet. Chairman attributes maybe?

Only Chairman attribute I can find in the editor is whether or not they have a sugar daddy. Is that what you mean? 

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7 minutes ago, Jupjamie said:

Only Chairman attribute I can find in the editor is whether or not they have a sugar daddy. Is that what you mean? 

No, in the editor that comes with FM15 you can find owners under the "People" section. For example, I can then search for someone like Roman Abramovich and he has the same attributes as players (both the hidden ones and visible), unique non-player attributes like Business, Interference, Patience, Resources, and a checklist under tendencies. None of them jump out at me as decisively related to youth recruitment at first glance though.

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Just now, Ceching You Out said:

No, in the editor that comes with FM15 you can find owners under the "People" section. For example, I can then search for someone like Roman Abramovich and he has the same attributes as players (both the hidden ones and visible), unique non-player attributes like Business, Interference, Patience, Resources, and a checklist under tendencies. None of them jump out at me as decisively related to youth recruitment at first glance though.

Ah hah, I've found it. I'll fire all his chairman attributes up to 20 and see if that does anything.

Nope. Nothing.

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I wonder if there is some kind of 'time factor' to prevent clubs developing unnaturally quickly?  I had a save with Hull where we were consistently finishing between 7th-3rd in the table, a couple of cup wins here and there, no massive increase in finances, no significant increase in attendances etc.  I could improve YR for the first time after 7 seasons, but it didn't seem like anything significant had changed at the club, and then again no option to improve for another 10 seasons or so.

Then again, it could just be completely random and this is all moot :D But I noticed when @Ceching You Out suggested improving the Chairman ratings, you replied within half an hour saying it hadn't worked.  Could you run a save without improving anything for, say, 5 seasons, and compare that to another 5 season run with whatever changes you make?  I realise this is way more time consuming, and if there is some kind of random factor it would give you a bogie answer anyway, but it might give you a better idea of what is affecting what.  

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Oh, when you boosted the Nation and Club reputation, did you boost the reputation of all the clubs in San Marino or just San Giovanni?  It could be that, despite being the best club in the world, players still wouldn't want to come and play for you against a bunch of diddys :D There could also be a balancing act in game, so that if for example Man Utd, Man City, Arsenal, Liverpool and Chelsea have maxed out YR, it isn't possible for other English teams to get up to 20 without those clubs coming down first.   Does that make sense? 

As far as I see, there'd be two tests here:
- All clubs in SM having max reputation but absolute minimum YR (except SG with its normal YR setting, is it the minimum anyway?) - to rule out the reputation question completely.
- All clubs in SM having max rep and max YR except SG with max rep and default YR, to see if it's possible to increase at all/up to 6/higher.  This would rule out any kind of balancing act between clubs to stop some kind of world dominance of one league.

Again, all just theoretical I suppose :D

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Thank you, @mjaferrie. They're all superb suggestions, none of which I'd thought of. I'll run those tests in the second post when I can, and then I'll get around to doing the five year one. The problem in the five year one might be that their reputation and finances very quickly shrink back down towards default, but I'm sure there's a way around that.

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4 minutes ago, Jupjamie said:

Thank you, @mjaferrie. They're all superb suggestions, none of which I'd thought of. I'll run those tests in the second post when I can, and then I'll get around to doing the five year one. The problem in the five year one might be that their reputation and finances very quickly shrink back down towards default, but I'm sure there's a way around that.

Hmm, yeah you're right with that one...

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8 minutes ago, mjaferrie said:

Hmm, yeah you're right with that one...

If I give every single club in San Marino maximum reputation and bump up the league and cup reputations to the max, I think that should work? The problem will come when they get battered in Europe by teams with significantly lower reputation, but hopefully that's not going to make a huge impact on every team in the league over just five years.

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It'll no doubt decrease after the odd 10-0 drubbing aye :D But it should give you enough time to get a good idea.

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So are you testing these just over a 1 year period? YR will only go up 'one notch' at a time I imagine? There's got to be a trigger somewhere. A whole load of factors coming together.

2015 - basic

2030 - fairly basic

2033 - average

2035 - above average

It took a while for mine to get going with Fiorentino.

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Well... I've just gone back to my FM 16 save with San Giovanni and I've found something veeeeeery interesting. Update coming when I get time, but this is a big one.

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3 hours ago, Jupjamie said:

@BoxToBox, would it be possible for you to upload a copy of your save? I've got something in mind that I want to test out.

I can do let me know if you still want it or if what's going on with San Giovanni has you sorted.

3 hours ago, mjaferrie said:

I wonder if there is some kind of 'time factor' to prevent clubs developing unnaturally quickly?  I had a save with Hull where we were consistently finishing between 7th-3rd in the table, a couple of cup wins here and there, no massive increase in finances, no significant increase in attendances etc.  I could improve YR for the first time after 7 seasons, but it didn't seem like anything significant had changed at the club, and then again no option to improve for another 10 seasons or so.

Then again, it could just be completely random and this is all moot :D But I noticed when @Ceching You Out suggested improving the Chairman ratings, you replied within half an hour saying it hadn't worked.  Could you run a save without improving anything for, say, 5 seasons, and compare that to another 5 season run with whatever changes you make?  I realise this is way more time consuming, and if there is some kind of random factor it would give you a bogie answer anyway, but it might give you a better idea of what is affecting what.  

I'm sure in my last save in Germany, once I cracked up the leagues I was able to consistently upgrade my recruitment most years if not every.

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Just now, BoxToBox said:

I can do let me know if you still want it or if what's going on with San Giovanni has you sorted.

I'm sure in my last save in Germany, once I cracked up the leagues I was able to consistently upgrade my recruitment most years if not every.

If you could still send it, that'd be great. That'd let me get a second, closer look at some things.

@smp20's log shows that he was able to upgrade his recruitment 3 times in 5 years after 2030, even with a team from San Marino. It's worth checking the idea that Recruitment may be able to be upgraded with some of the conditions I've tested plus a little bit of time, although what's happening with both you and @Ceching You Out suggests that time isn't an issue.

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6 minutes ago, Jupjamie said:

If you could still send it, that'd be great. That'd let me get a second, closer look at some things.

@smp20's log shows that he was able to upgrade his recruitment 3 times in 5 years after 2030, even with a team from San Marino. It's worth checking the idea that Recruitment may be able to be upgraded with some of the conditions I've tested plus a little bit of time, although what's happening with both you and @Ceching You Out suggests that time isn't an issue.

Uploading now, but it'll be a while with my super crappy internet service.

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1 hour ago, Jupjamie said:

 

@smp20's log shows that he was able to upgrade his recruitment 3 times in 5 years after 2030, even with a team from San Marino. It's worth checking the idea that Recruitment may be able to be upgraded with some of the conditions I've tested plus a little bit of time, although what's happening with both you and @Ceching You Out suggests that time isn't an issue.

 

1 hour ago, BoxToBox said:

I'm sure in my last save in Germany, once I cracked up the leagues I was able to consistently upgrade my recruitment most years if not every.


Fair enough!

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28 minutes ago, Ceching You Out said:

@Jupjamie, are you more of a Fred or a Velma?

 

scooby-doo-gang.png

I see a bit of Fred in myself, although I'd say I'm definitely more of a Shaggy!

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So, what are some things we know? Well:

Despite making the Europa League groups 11 times and a pretty much guaranteed appearance in at least the Europa Playoffs for about 50 years, my San Giovanni team couldn't upgrade their Youth Recruitment on FM 2016 from the starting level of 2 - but Cailungo, who made it to CL Qualifying just once (and got smashed in the first round) and who never got past the first round of Europa Qualifying, were able to upgrade theirs. Note that other teams probably were able to as well at some point, but finances would have meant that they had to cut back. Speaking of finances, Cailungo also went into administration 6 times.

 

@BoxToBox has taken Giza/Hoyvik insanely far in under 15 years, far and beyond the stature of any other team from the Faroe Islands. They're constantly in the CL Groups, with a high reputation and a load of money - but three teams from the same league have a better Youth Recruitment rating  - despite having a far lower reputation and finances, and not starting with a higher rating.

 

@Ceching You Out is the second biggest club in Luxembourg in terms of reputation, with the best facilities and attendances in the largest city in the country. No option to upgrade Youth Recruitment from it's day one starting point - but every other top division club bar one has been able to. One of them have even reached above average!

 

So, I decided to run a little test on my San Giovanni save, and resigned in 2100. I simmed forward five years, just to see what would happen when they were managed by the AI.

  • Results dropped in Europe. They found it a lot harder to beat teams in Europe when managed by the AI. Only once in the last 40 years had I been knocked out with San Giovanni in the CL 2nd Qualifying Round - they did it twice in five years. Domestic results kept up to par.
  • They signed players. That's not really surprising. They were all players who had previously played in Italy, except for loaning in one Turkish defender. Lots of kids from Napoli. Some of the players they signed did look pretty good, but none of them stuck around long.
  • Their reputation didn't increase. Not surprising, considering they were doing worse in Europe.
  • Their finances decreased - again, because they weren't faring as well in Europe.

 

But guess what? In the five years that I hadn't been managing San Giovanni - and despite them doing worse than they had been previously - they were able to upgrade their Youth Recruitment from limited to basic. An upgrade that I wasn't able to make in 85 years there, with better reputation and finances.

So, there's either two reasons for that:

1: Transfers impact the ability to upgrade Youth Recruitment.

Or, much more likely...

2: AI teams have a major advantage when it comes to upgrading youth recruitment.

Edited by Jupjamie

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38 minutes ago, Jupjamie said:

So, there's either two reasons for that:

1: Transfers impact the ability to upgrade Youth Recruitment.

Or, much more likely...

2: AI teams have a major advantage when it comes to upgrading youth recruitment.

It's plausible the former is a factor. The board may feel that if you're using youth players and succeeding there's no need to upgrade it, whereas if you're signing players they may feel that the youth players your bringing through aren't good enough for the first team and would sanction the upgrade.

Were the players signed any better than the players that were already there?

Edited by Clyde1998

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