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Adrià Planes

Are dribbles nerfed this game?

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All i see is mediocre players  never getting dribbled or skinned by world class dribblers. Messi for instance just gets robbed 9/10 by a mediocre la liga defender like that player has a magnet and just lodges himself on him like a leech

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Yeah I rarely see any good dribbles, I.e. quick feet, body swerves or step overs. The only dribbles I see is knocking it past a man.

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Interceptions this game are very strong. Need to get a bit toned down imo. Most of the times when the dribbler attempts to run at his man and loses the ball,  i feel like SI forgot to put the dribbling animation

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I'm not certain, but maybe skills just aren't represented by the 3D match engine. If that's the case then that's the next step for the 3D ME. Even just add a roulette or something in there to add to animations.

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The sorrow i feel when we can manage a player like Messi but the game wont let us take advantage of his majestry. I guess im gonna have to wait the next lifetime when the game has advanced a bit more. Smh...

 

EDIT: Tbh though its not like the dribbles are not there. Its just the defender is a leech with a magnet in his legs. Nothing goes past. Ridiculous and messes with the immersion

Edited by Adrià Planes

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6 minutes ago, Adrià Planes said:

The sorrow i feel when we can manage a player like Messi but the game wont let us take advantage of his majestry. I guess im gonna have to wait the next lifetime when the game has advanced a bit more. Smh...

 

EDIT: Tbh though its not like the dribbles are not there. Its just the defender is a leech with a magnet in his legs. Nothing goes past. Ridiculous and messes with the immersion

If you look at his RL stats here: https://www.whoscored.com/Players/11119/Show/Lionel-Messi you can see this season he averages 3.5 dribbles per game.  This matches up fairly well with his stats in FM, in fact he probably averages more dribbles per game in FM than he does IRL.

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Can't argue with that. But you can't really defend the ME when even the average defender steals his pocket money like it is a walk in the park.

 

Edit: I loved how the attacking wide roles upfront worked on 2015. Messi scored 107 goals in his top season and a thousand overall before he retired at the age of 37. Now that years ME was worse than the current but now its too hard to replicate such performance in 2017. Messi barely scored half (49) on my latest season and half of them were from the dead ball situations

Edited by Adrià Planes

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Well, it's the first FM where I've used the "dribble less" TI regularly. It seems that players running with the ball just end up losing it constantly.

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34 minutes ago, Adrià Planes said:

Can't argue with that. But you can't really defend the ME when even the average defender steals his pocket money like it is a walk in the park.

 

Edit: I loved how the attacking wide roles upfront worked on 2015. Messi scored 107 goals in his top season and a thousand overall before he retired at the age of 37. Now that years ME was worse than the current but now its too hard to replicate such performance in 2017. Messi barely scored half (49) on my latest season and half of them were from the dead ball situations

and on the other side of the coin another person would say Messi scoring 107 goals means the ME isn't working correctly and is too weighted towards attacking.

If defenders are taking the ball off him too often then you need to look at your tactics, why is he losing the ball? why isn't he passing? does he have options? or have your tactical choices forced him into a cul-de-sac where he takes a player on when its not suitable to do so.

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Sorry friend your impossible to deal with. Always the tactics. I feel our discussion won't take us anywhere. So i'll opt to seek my answer elsewhere

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1 hour ago, Adrià Planes said:

Sorry friend your impossible to deal with. Always the tactics. I feel our discussion won't take us anywhere. So i'll opt to seek my answer elsewhere

No the discussion won't go anywhere because you are blinded by your opinion and refuse to accept that you could be doing something wrong.

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1 hour ago, kozmik said:

Well, it's the first FM where I've used the "dribble less" TI regularly. It seems that players running with the ball just end up losing it constantly.

Do your players have low strength attributes? I had players that kept losing the ball over at Leipzig, but as it turned out all of those particular players that lost the ball consistently had low strength. Perhaps try changing your player roles to something not so reliant on strength. 

E.g. Roaming Playmaker to Advanced Playmaker on Attack

Complete Forward to Poacher/Advanced Forward/Target Man/False Nine.

Etc

Edited by Fer Fuchs Ake

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Only on here could a thread about the lack of dribbling demonstrated in the ME turn into "it's your tactics" :D

 

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1 hour ago, Fer Fuchs Ake said:

Do your players have low strength attributes? I had players that kept losing the ball over at Leipzig, but as it turned out all of those particular players that lost the ball consistently had low strength. Perhaps try changing your player roles to something not so reliant on strength. 

E.g. Roaming Playmaker to Advanced Playmaker on Attack

Complete Forward to Poacher/Advanced Forward/Target Man/False Nine.

Etc

Could be, the TI has done the job well enough so I haven't really even tried to analyze what's going on. But I do know that I've felt the need to use that instruction on all levels from vanarama south to premier league. I use several dribbling roles (if's, f9, ap/a) and they do run with the ball quite a bit, but in general they seem to pick the right moments better.

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If you check the bugs forum, you'll find someone else complaining about the exact opposite: attackers dribbling too much and defenders can't tackle.  And yet it's the same ME...

Best bet - check the link that cougar posted about real life stats and see how you compare.

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I won the league in my first season at Liverpool, but had to drop Coutinho because every time there was an extended highlight and he had the ball, he just walked into a tackle (even though he had about four easy passing options a lot of the time).

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27 minutes ago, dannysheard said:

I won the league in my first season at Liverpool, but had to drop Coutinho because every time there was an extended highlight and he had the ball, he just walked into a tackle (even though he had about four easy passing options a lot of the time).

i see the same thing .. top with Liverpool but Coutinho giving the ball away so much as AM, AP, IF or TQ. It seems I only get success, dribbling, from speed merchants. The smaller technical players really struggle to beat a man.

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In all this back and forth, I'm seeing very little in the way of either stats from in game and FM, and qualitative and quantifiable examples.

So far Cougar is the only person to offer anything up. Given so many people are pitching in here, I look forward to seeing plenty of the above soon...

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13 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

In all this back and forth, I'm seeing very little in the way of either stats from in game and FM, and qualitative and quantifiable examples.

So far Cougar is the only person to offer anything up. Given so many people are pitching in here, I look forward to seeing plenty of the above soon...

I will check stats in my game tonight ... but this is 'general discussion forum'... not 'absolute fact forum'. We are sharing common frustration ... I don't care enough to investigate and raise a bug about my perception of Coutinho's dribbling effectiveness in the ME compared to real life... but agreed with Danny that I share his frustration about Coutinho losing the ball an awful lot.  

Also I don't know Klopp's exact formation, tactics and instructions for his team and specific individuals ... so any data would be completely un-comparative and useless. It's a subjective opinion of mine that I think Coutinho is pretty good, IRL, in tight spaces to beat a man using a trick or two or just good body shape and balance to protect the ball... and that in FM it's hard to replicate because he get's tackled a lot easier, than say, Origi if I play them in the same role in the same tactic.

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16 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

In all this back and forth, I'm seeing very little in the way of either stats from in game and FM, and qualitative and quantifiable examples.

So far Cougar is the only person to offer anything up. Given so many people are pitching in here, I look forward to seeing plenty of the above soon...

Quite.

Just had a quick look at Messi in my current save (I'm not managing Barcelona).  He's averaging 6.47 dribbles made per game, which is significantly higher than the 3.5 per game in real life that cougar linked above.

By way of comparison, Alexis Sanchez is averaging 6, Neymar 6.5, Hazard 5.52 and Coutinho 2.8.

This probably doesn't tell us an awful lot, although once you start drilling into the actual stats perhaps the issue becomes more about our perception than anything else?

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19 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

I will check stats in my game tonight ... but this is 'general discussion forum'... not 'absolute fact forum'. We are sharing common frustration ... I don't care enough to investigate and raise a bug about my perception of Coutinho's dribbling effectiveness in the ME compared to real life... but agreed with Danny that I share his frustration about Coutinho losing the ball an awful lot.  

Also I don't know Klopp's exact formation, tactics and instructions for his team and specific individuals ... so any data would be completely un-comparative and useless. It's a subjective opinion of mine that I think Coutinho is pretty good, IRL, in tight spaces to beat a man using a trick or two or just good body shape and balance to protect the ball... and that in FM it's hard to replicate because he get's tackled a lot easier, than say, Origi if I play them in the same role in the same tactic.

Sums it up for me. 

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Just now, westy8chimp said:

I will check stats in my game tonight ... but this is 'general discussion forum'... not 'absolute fact forum'. We are sharing common frustration ... I don't care enough to investigate and raise a bug about my perception of Coutinho's dribbling effectiveness in the ME compared to real life... but agreed with Danny that I share his frustration about Coutinho losing the ball an awful lot.  

Also I don't know Klopp's exact formation, tactics and instructions for his team and specific individuals ... so any data would be completely un-comparative and useless. It's a subjective opinion of mine that I think Coutinho is pretty good, IRL, in tight spaces to beat a man using a trick or two or just good body shape and balance to protect the ball... and that in FM it's hard to replicate because he get's tackled a lot easier, than say, Origi if I play them in the same role in the same tactic.

You're still expected to contribute accurately where you can. In game stats and real life stats are easily accessibly. If you're saying he is tackled too easily and too often, then it's very easy offer examples from your save. So saying "but this is 'general discussion forum'... not 'absolute fact forum'" is completely beside the point.

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35 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Quite.

Just had a quick look at Messi in my current save (I'm not managing Barcelona).  He's averaging 6.47 dribbles made per game, which is significantly higher than the 3.5 per game in real life that cougar linked above.

By way of comparison, Alexis Sanchez is averaging 6, Neymar 6.5, Hazard 5.52 and Coutinho 2.8.

This probably doesn't tell us an awful lot, although once you start drilling into the actual stats perhaps the issue becomes more about our perception than anything else?

What would be good to see, and I'll have a look when home tomorrow, is attempted dribbles vs completed dribbles, and a dribble completion rate. Get that from both real life and FM and you can build a much closer picture too. I've got a couple of specific examples I'm uploading later of players dribbling directly at the man, where they can attack the space instead

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3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

You're still expected to contribute accurately where you can. In game stats and real life stats are easily accessibly. If you're saying he is tackled too easily and too often, then it's very easy offer examples from your save. So saying "but this is 'general discussion forum'... not 'absolute fact forum'" is completely beside the point.

I get your point but only if the stats are applicable. But something like dribbling is so linked into formation/tactics that we could never compare. So the facts are irrelevant. I was being constructive in as much that I had the same observations as another user had added to the discussion.

i.e. as stated above... this season Messi real life dribbles are 3.5 per game. And in Herne's game they are 6.47... what does that tell us? Nothing because in real life;

is he performing slightly below par?

are the team performing below par?

is he having lots of unsuccessful dribbles?

is he playing in a refrained role i.e. expected to be a playmaker or poacher in the current managers plans?

and in FM is he being asked to play on the wing, or as an AM?

Stats are mostly more useless and less constructive than observations.

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

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4 minutes ago, westy8chimp said:

I get your point but only if the stats are applicable. But something like dribbling is so linked into formation/tactics that we could never compare. So the facts are irrelevant. I was being constructive in as much that I had the same observations as another user had added to the discussion.

i.e. as stated above... this season Messi real life dribbles are 3.5 per game. And in Herne's game they are 6.47... what does that tell us? Nothing because in real life;

is he performing slightly below par?

are the team performing below par?

is he having lots of unsuccessful dribbles?

is he playing in a refrained role i.e. expected to be a playmaker or poacher in the current managers plans?

and in FM is he being asked to play on the wing, or as an AM?

Stats are mostly more useless and less constructive than observations.

Lies, damned lies and statistics...

As I also said, qualitative and quantifiable examples are also important. Still absolutely none of that either. 

Not one person has actually posted an example, with the very details you describe.

Both stats and examples are applicable, and none have been offered. 

 

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I've had this feeling in the last few builds. I wouldn't say there's a big tweak needed but a small one wouldn't hurt. I've noticed that assigning roles with dribbling-instructions is more risky than before. Like @kozmik I have also been using the 'Dribble less' instruction. For me it's always on when I'm up against better teams. I've also been avoiding central roles that have 'dribble more' toggled.

I haven't actually gone and checked the stats, so it's just based on what I've seen in the matches and general the feeling of it's benefit or lack thereof.

You might look at the stats and see that this player made so and so many dribbles and that it compares to real life... but what the stats doesn't show you immediatly, is how many times your players attempt dribbles and loses the ball. You have to go into the analysis tool and checked the lost possession highlights and watch each one individually. I checked one match so that's by no mean something to go by. Muniain as a treq had 5 dribbles but of the 15 times he lost possession he also lost the ball 5 times while dribbling. Inaki Williams had 4 dribbles playing on the right wing, but got tackled 6 times while running with the ball. I wonder what the stats are for players the don't have great physicals in roles like IF, CF, AP, AF, etc. Those are the only two players in my team I dare giving dribbling instructions to.

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3 minutes ago, eple said:

I've had this feeling in the last few builds. I wouldn't say there's a big tweak needed but a small one wouldn't hurt. I've noticed that assigning roles with dribbling-instructions is more risky than before. Like @kozmik I have also been using the 'Dribble less' instruction. For me it's always on when I'm up against better teams. I've also been avoiding central roles that have 'dribble more' toggled.

I haven't actually gone and checked the stats, so it's just based on what I've seen in the matches and general the feeling of it's benefit or lack thereof.

You might look at the stats and see that this player made so and so many dribbles and that it compares to real life... but what the stats doesn't show you immediatly, is how many times your players attempt dribbles and loses the ball. You have to go into the analysis tool and checked the lost possession highlights and watch each one individually. I checked one match so that's by no mean something to go by. Muniain as a treq had 5 dribbles but of the 15 times he lost possession he also lost the ball 5 times while dribbling. Inaki Williams had 4 dribbles playing on the right wing, but got tackled 6 times while running with the ball. I wonder what the stats are for players the don't have great physicals in roles like IF, CF, AP, AF, etc. Those are the only two players in my team I dare giving dribbling instructions to.

This is the point I was saying to Herne about needing attempted dribbles too, dribble completion rate. And then looking at specific dribbling examples.

There is so much more context needed

For what it's worth, in my United save, Mata does exceedingly well with his dribbling despite not being quick or strong (AMC advanced playmaker attack). Entirely anecdotal, ill put some more qualitative stuff up tomorrow evening

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16 hours ago, puffascruffowitz said:

I'm not certain, but maybe skills just aren't represented by the 3D match engine. If that's the case then that's the next step for the 3D ME. Even just add a roulette or something in there to add to animations.

Messi doesn't really use skills though.

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Just now, themadsheep2001 said:

This is the point I was saying to Herne about needing attempted dribbles too, dribble completion rate. And then looking at specific dribbling examples.

There is so much more context needed

Yes, I very much agree. I set out to do that, I guess, but at least for the time-being I was put of by the sheer amount of highlights to go through in each match and the time it took. Feel free to have a go at it :)

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2 hours ago, Baptista_8 said:

Messi doesn't really use skills though.

That wasn't my point. I'm just guessing here, but maybe there aren't "skills" represented in the ME, or at least they're not represented by the 3D depiction of the ME. As far as the ME is concerned a player either dribbles by someone or doesn't, and it's represented in 3D only by players ghosting past other players or knocking it past them, not roulettes or stepovers.

The lack of skills in FM aside, I have players who consistently dribble past players. They're not doing skills, but the commentary says "x player skinned x player" so they're definitely beating players off the dribble.

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I think dribbling is poor in the ME because (1) players fail to shield the ball while dribbling, like they do in real life. They often just run directly at the opponent and fall over constantly;  (2) there isn't any curved movements, either with running or dribbling (at least none that i have seen) which essentially means it's inherently harder to skip past a defender and adjust, and (3) Agility may have been nerfed, so players like lallana who are very press resistant irl get dispossessed constantly because their high agility does not make up for their lack of strength like it does irl.

Of course this is all anecdotal, but yes I do believe it's a lot harder to dribble without a certain amount of acceleration/ strength. For instance, I was running a test save with Chelsea, and hazard was seriously under-performing in his IF role. Using the editor, i bumped up his acceleration by 1, and afterwards his agility, balance & strength. Watching the subsequent matches, I saw him dribble more successfully with higher acceleration/ strength, while higher agility/ balance was not that consequential. IMO either press resistant players should get a balance & agility boost in the next update, to reflect their real life ability, or dribbling should be somewhat independent of/ less reliant on these physical attributes. Also, acceleration should only tie in after a successful dribble is made, at which point they begin to accelerate away with the ball (the exception being with the "knocks ball past opponent" ppm).

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On 09/01/2017 at 05:28, martplfc1 said:

Yeah I rarely see any good dribbles, I.e. quick feet, body swerves or step overs. The only dribbles I see is knocking it past a man.

Have to agree with this. When I first got FM I did a little practice save as Arsenal, and Chamberlain was my only player that seemed to beat his man with any regularity. He had pace and the Knocks Ball Past opponent PPM. The rest of the supposed dribble wizards just seemed to run (or sometimes even walk) straight into tackle. You still do see the effects of a good dribbler in the game, but they tend to be very situational like when you're on a counter or have dragged a defender out of position. But when you're building up play, the opponents have a load of men behind the ball, and some bastard goes 'time to run through the entire team', you can only put your head in your hands.

Edited by Sudodoodo

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On 09/01/2017 at 01:44, Adrià Planes said:

The sorrow i feel when we can manage a player like Messi but the game wont let us take advantage of his majestry. I guess im gonna have to wait the next lifetime when the game has advanced a bit more. Smh...

 

EDIT: Tbh though its not like the dribbles are not there. Its just the defender is a leech with a magnet in his legs. Nothing goes past. Ridiculous and messes with the immersion

Actually dribblers are there but as someone said earlier the match engine does not support many things I think that is the case but if u r fond of dribbler u should look at 2 supporting attributes with dribbling n pace those are flair n technique probably u watch ur matches in extended mode which just shows exciting scenes like goalscoring n opprtunities, but there is a chance that u r missing those dribbles bcz they are not part of those moves, watch a full match n u can see those, which of course are not even close to original dribbling but u ll be excited to see those those little sways n good knocking past the opponents.

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I had a winger during my stay at Ajax (regen) who would outplay his man at every possible occasion. Strong points for flair, pace, acceleration, dribbling, technique and agility made him pretty much unstoppable. Apart from that some very meagre stats but because of those he continuously kept performing very well.

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On 10/01/2017 at 00:35, themadsheep2001 said:

As I also said, qualitative and quantifiable examples are also important. Still absolutely none of that either. 

Not one person has actually posted an example, with the very details you describe.

Both stats and examples are applicable, and none have been offered. 

 

We would also need to know what the game classifies a Dribble as?  Does it have to include the beating of a defender to be counted or does it just mean running with the ball?

Collecting the ball in the centre circle, running forward with it for tem meters then passing it is different to collecting it, beating two players and passing it. 

This might account for the higher than IRL stats.

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Hello. I am new but i was trying to find some information about Football Manager dribling, as long as its frustrating for me to see a great game doing 0 improves in this.

I come from Pcfutbol Spanish Saga in 90´s and they had great driblings. If you had Ronaldo Nazario he was Ronaldo Nazario dribling one oponent after another inside area. 
It seems Sega graphics make the gameplay compromise with some moves, turning players into a clumsy players. No matter if you have Isco or Messi or Neymar. at some point the look Clumsy.
This is the worse of this game. You cant barely see the high quality  when you bough a great player with a lof of money..  And this is getting worse and worse every year.
I remember back in 2010-2012 having a very young Neymar dribling some players in a row. Ok, it was like he was ice-skating but who cares that? I preffer my player to do what he suppoused to do.

I think the Stats are wrong. i mean, in real life what we consider a good drible is diferent from what the game consider. 
What would be really clarifier is how much balls a player loose trying to drible (aka run with ball until he loose it). Sometimes in some match i se a player loosing ball like 10 times in few minutes trying the same play. Runing until he loose the ball. Its frustrating as clearly this is not football.

I dont know how Sega can fix this. But i think they just must focus in what i call "the beauty of football"..  You dont spend 60 € for see an ugly match, and your players runing like a chicken without head. So they must to develope moves according with players quality, introduce real dribles not connected with aceleration or strengh (Isco is great dribling and he is slow in real life). Even making new parameters, like keeping ball quality, for example Isco, iniesta, they are players who can protect the ball amazingly, very hard to quit.  But in this game actually, defenses very very easy quit the ball to stars players. Can be magically, with a tackle even from behind and almost always accurate, or just quit while player stop and dont know what to do, and look behind very slow until opponent steal ball. And you know this is 90% of the times your player do that. And no matter his price or quality. Its frustrating..


In the last years, i can say the same with spectacular passing.. You CANT barely see a great pass for put your striker in front of the goalkeeper. Its like players are so fat compared with field.. No spaces at all.. Looks likie handball match your players just passing around area and its imposible they filter a good pass to some forward..
Again. UGLY game..  This should be the real focus.
 Also the way forwards face the goalkeeper, dribling goalkeepers.  PcFutbol had ALL of this.. It was amazing seeing your Ronaldo Nazario put in front the Goaly and drible him. And i am talking about 90`s, with poor technology and computers, and being a very very humble game compared to Sega..

But i dont know how we can say that to Sega..  We remaing buying the game because its nice and we do every year. But version after version 3d match is getting more and more boring..
Also Injuries mean you loose some minutes seeing nothing. You even cant quit the animation, and you have a lot injuries.. Making gameplay something not for enjoy but for sleep..  

I font know what we can do for make Sega reaction a bit and build something finally atractive..  I am not saying matches end 10-10..  You can see great play but finally ball is saved by a defense or goalkeeper. In some matches you see nothing more than midfields trying wrong pass and runing with ball until loose. No real goal chances even if match end 2-2 with some randoms crossballs.. 

Edited by josem

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The only thing i can do is..  Buy the Ingame Editor.  And take a very good team. For example this year i used old stars posted in workshop. Di Estefano, Ronaldo Nazario, pele, etc. Move up their real skills (from real life). So i can see something "similar" to Football. But VERY important.. I need to move up teamwork almost to maximum in every player, so they can do something more than run and run with the ball until they loose it..  In very hard cases i use "dont run with the ball" in attributes. 
Also i taked from workshop something that  quit the injuries posibility. So in matches no loose time...  And finally i use tactics that try to play fast and make spaces for my fordwars.  I have Ronaldo naz, Pele and Maradona up xDD.

Sega must face the fact, some players want that.. Enjoy their football matches. I had all my life for develop teams with previous version and games. Now with less time, i want less complications, and i want see my team with great players (Real madrid my case) playing good with my improves, new players bough and tactics. 
But cant work if the game make something ugly to see..  

What i would consider important..  Make more chances if you have stars players. More dribling actions, more passing until your forward is alone in front the goaly sometimes in a match.. this is something i almost see NEVER even in a few matches seen..  Only happend if a lot of space in some counter attack with some random very long pass. But i am talking a real passing near area with defenses in front.. And in previous versions we had this.. Like 6 years ago or more. 
Then forwards can drible goalkeepers, or vaseline, etc (vaseline you see some very few times). 
Also agility in the game. For example.. Why injured cross all the freeking field to go out?? If they can do near where they fall (as in real life by the way). and why we must see all the animation, and why we cant quit?
I know you can avoid with exaustive instead complete match. 

Its just focus in make something that you can enjoy..  Like seeing the majority of good footall matches with great players.. 

Edited by josem

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16 hours ago, weezy3313 said:

This game is about strategy and football management... Not beautiful dribbling graphics.

By your logic the game would have never moved beyond 2D/text matches.

As if an entertaining match visualisation would detract from the game - come on now...

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The last couple of posts to me highlight two issues.

- The "genericness" in moves/individual action which in a computer simulation will always be at play. To simplify, any attribute system ensures simply that players with superior attributes will have more successfully outcomes over weaker ones over time. Fifa get around this issue a bit by exaggerating their system. If a player for instance is edited as slow and robust (Luca Toni), he moves and controls and shields the ball like the world's fattest tank. If vice versa he is edited as slight and quick as Marco Reus, he moves like a jet. The Fifa guys ensure this naturally, as they know what their customers "want". Which may be some faux realism, but only to a degree. It may be more important for them to see their "Stars" shine and show. Which is also why the players on the pitch tend to be a bit oversized if you compare it to the size of the pitch. The proportions are adjusted and slightly exaggerated so that you can make out those stars you see on telly every other week on Fifa too.  ON FM's level, this could be adressed some by introducing more PPMs. Like doing stepovers, and the like. However, that's not engouth, as players properly "shielding the ball" etc. has yet to be implemented into the game engine.

- The misperception that people have about competitive sports on any level in the world. Clubs spend billions in attempts to realistically gain a few extra percentages, and oft fail. The expectation as to FM tends to be quite different though. Which is in parts own making, in parts how football is being analyzed in mainstream media. Players (and managers) are either trashed as useless, or football gods who win it all every time alone. That's an inherent thing as to humans in general: We adore stories. Stories need cause and effect, and protagonists that carry that narrative on their own shoulders. This is also reflected on the cover of just about any sport's magazine, as they tend to focus on faces of individual men/women -- typically either portrayed as fallen stars or rising heroes. There's a few elite players that some consistently do some magic, sure. But even so, even they can oft look quite human, after all.

Edited by Svenc

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28 minutes ago, Svenc said:

The last couple of posts to me highlight two issues.

- The "genericness" in moves/individual action which in a computer simulation will always be at play. To simplify, any attribute system ensures simply that players with superior attributes will have more successfully outcomes over weaker ones over time. Fifa get around this issue a bit by exaggerating their system. If a player for instance is edited as slow and robust (Luca Toni), he moves and controls and shields the ball like the world's fattest tank. If vice versa he is edited as slight and quick as Marco Reus, he moves like a jet. The Fifa guys ensure this naturally, as they know what their customers "want". Which may be some faux realism, but only to a degree. It may be more important for them to see their "Stars" shine and show. Which is also why the players on the pitch tend to be a bit oversized if you compare it to the size of the pitch. The proportions are adjusted and slightly exaggerated so that you can make out those stars you see on telly every other week on Fifa too.  ON FM's level, this could be adressed some by introducing more PPMs. Like doing stepovers, and the like. However, that's not engouth, as players properly "shielding the ball" etc. has yet to be implemented into the game engine.

- The misperception that people have about competitive sports on any level in the world. Clubs spend billions in attempts to realistically gain a few extra percentages, and oft fail. The expectation as to FM tends to be quite different though. Which is in parts own making, in parts how football is being analyzed in mainstream media. Players (and managers) are either trashed as useless, or football gods who win it all every time alone. That's an inherent thing as to humans in general: We adore stories. Stories need cause and effect, and protagonists that carry that narrative on their own shoulders. This is also reflected on the cover of just about any sport's magazine, as they tend to focus on faces of individual men/women -- typically either portrayed as fallen stars or rising heroes. There's a few elite players that some consistently do some magic, sure. But even so, even they can oft look quite human, after all.

This is pretty much a filibuster! 

The problem has always been the same... The ME massively favours pace men over technical, agile, low centre of gravity players. The lack of tight turns, clever side steps has always hindered a Coutinho type player vs a very basic player with high pace. 

IRL, much to my frustration (having watched Walcot for a decade), its actually very rare for a pure pace player to dribble past an opponent... Two or three times on a good day a player like walcott will receive a pass 20 yards ahead in space that allows him to win a foot race... But when he receives ball to feet he is more likely to play a simple square pass or look for his supporting fb. 

Its players like Hazard, Coutinho, Messi (low centre, agile, good ball control) that draw players in and beat them with a quick burst of acceleration. 

Perhaps its the lack of collision functionality that makes this impossible? Ive kind of learned to just get over it... Thats FM and i enjoy it anyway. 

All that said, its early days in FM 19 and already ive seen more instances (particularly when a wide player gets to the byline near the edge of the box) of beating an opponent in tighter spaces. 

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Dribbling wide and beating the direct opponent almost always ends with the dribbler being tackled. The only succesful dribbling I have witnessed is inside forward dribbling diagonally. 

This ME does not yet have the funfactor of dribbling in FM17 nor the dribbling qualities provided in the final ME of fm18.

Creating one vs ones and space for others due to succesful dribbling by the likes of Messi, Hazard, Mbappe, Neymar, Bergwijn etc  needs some TLC to make this ME both more fun and lifelike.

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I play with Inside Forwards at Everton and Richarlison, Bernard, Lookman and Walcott often run at defenders and take them on, often after cutting inside and running into the penalty for a shot, overlap pass to WB or killer pass.

Not saying it's right, but I've definately seen a fair amount of dribbling in my save.

EDIT: Although... This fits with what Mensell76 has said here.

19 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

Dribbling wide and beating the direct opponent almost always ends with the dribbler being tackled. The only succesful dribbling I have witnessed is inside forward dribbling diagonally.  

This ME does not yet have the funfactor of dribbling in FM17 nor the dribbling qualities provided in the final ME of fm18.

Creating one vs ones and space for others due to succesful dribbling by the likes of Messi, Hazard, Mbappe, Neymar, Bergwijn etc  needs some TLC to make this ME both more fun and lifelike.

Edited by Robioto
Added quote

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why do players need half an hour to turn? it should take them a split of a second to do that. for example when usually a IF who's instructed to cross less gets to the byline he in 99,9% looses the ball unnesessary just waiting to be tackled instead of simply turning around and save possession.

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29 minutes ago, Mensell76 said:

The only succesful dribbling I have witnessed is inside forward dribbling diagonally.

+1

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6 minutes ago, pauly15 said:

+1

 

19 minutes ago, Robioto said:

I play with Inside Forwards at Everton and Richarlison, Bernard, Lookman and Walcott often run at defenders and take them on, often after cutting inside and running into the penalty for a shot, overlap pass to WB or killer pass.

Not saying it's right, but I've definately seen a fair amount of dribbling in my save.

EDIT: Although... This fits with what Mensell76 has said here.

I have to EDIT myself:

Complete wingbacks dribble past defenders a lot but in this case it is because the wide players just track him and hand him over to the next defender who can't engage in time because the cwb is coded for perfectly timed crossing (A lot). He sort of is undefendable for AI atm. :D

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In FM18 we sometimes saw that weird looking overstep when players started a succesful dribble. It was probably trying to portray the scissor (is that the correct english term?). And even better: knocks ball past opponent worked very well indeed.

So it is not a matter of this ME or FM not being capable of showing great dribbles. But tuning the amount of crossing down by making dribbling slightly less effective and wide tackling more pronounced has had too big an impact on dribbling wide by attackers. 

It is all there for the taking SI, the dream ME is sooo close,  yet still so far away.

Edited by Mensell76
Darn dutch mobile spelling:)

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I think the game looks fantastic.. best it has ever!

 

I hope they spend time on adding more realism to the simulation:

1. More accurate attributes (English teams should not dominate Europe as they do)

2. Advanced AI that adds more of a challenge (AI coaches, transfers, etc.)

etc. etc.

After that is perfected than some cute dribbling animations would be nice.

Oh... Remember you are only seeing the highlights that you chose (key, extended etc.)  If you watch a full game you would be surprised at some of the skills and nice skill moves you see)

Edited by weezy3313

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I don't think they've ever had it wherein the striker rounds a GK. Very strange to not represent this in the engine. 

Not worth saying so and so has 6.5+ dribbles on the stats page, we're talking match engine here

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