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FM17: Pochettino's 3-4-2-1

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Hi guys

Looking to create a tactic based around the 3-4-2-1* tactic Spurs have employed over the last couple of games.  I love the style of play Spurs have at the moment and have used their 4-2-3-1 formation previously to good effect.  In all my CM / FM saves I have tended to stick with 4 at the back so this is a new one for me.  Debatable whether you would call this a 3 or 5 at the back tactic, however the full backs spend so much time in the opposition half they should be looked at as midfielders.

 So below are my thoughts on how it should be deployed, however I do have some queries so any input would.  I have only just started this save so will add updates for those (if any) are interested.

                                                                 GK - DE - Lloris

                    BPD - DE - Alderweireld       CD - DE - Dier      BPD - DE - Vertonghen

CWB - AT - Walker                                                                                                   CWB - AT - Rose

                                    BWM - DE - Wanyama     BBM - SU - Dembele     

                                        AP - SU - Eriksen        AM - AT - Alli

                                                                 CF - AT - Kane

Team Instructions:  Control mentality, Fluid

Closing down more

Play out of defence

Exploit the flanks

 

So my initial points to ponder:

Debated between having Walker and Rose as Defensive wingers (SU) due to their average positions in game they are pretty much midfielders however purely based on the descriptions of each role the complete wing backs (AT) seem more realistic.  Also has anyone had any success retraining these two as wing backs?

Centre backs - having never tried three at the back this is one I am not sure on. IRL all three are ball playing defenders (each even supported attacks further afield at points of the game against Chelsea!) however I am bot sure this would work well in the game.  Does FM respond well to two BPD's?  Any thoughts on if this can be improved?

Hugo Lloris - The defence will pass the ball back to him often (irl) in order to draw the opposition further upfield and start periods of possession.  In this sense I would see him more as a sweeper however he rarely leaves his area so this doesn't translate well to the game. So my thoughts are to have him as GK-DE

 

All comments / input greatly received.

 

Thanks

Darren

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Edited by Hackers76

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A target man will have long balls knocked to him very often, Tottenham don't play like that so I'd say Kane is a deep lying forward. Look for overlap is a pointless instruction when you aren't playing with wingers, who are the fullbacks going to overlap?

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Thanks for that, I had already changed Kane to complete forward as I feel that best suits his role.  The overlap was more down to me not fully understanding the instruction.  I always assumed the full backs would be looking to get forward ahead of the midfield, no matter how narrow.  Have amended it thanks.

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You can see in the above image that Alterweireld averaged a bit deeper than the other two CDs.  It is pretty common in FM when playing with 3 in the back to give the middle CD a Cover duty.  You can probably leave the other two on Defend rather than Stopper.

Also, notice how much more central Wanyama is compared to Dembele who favored the left side.   I'm unsure whether you want to move Wanyama to a more central position or not with Dembele playing just off him to the left but worth exploring.

The BWM Defend vs. BBM Support split looks good, however you should look at how often Wanyama closed down vs. held his position just to make sure that an alternative role isn't more accurate.  

I also agree about Ali as a SS.

Edited by Columnarius

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I haven't watched a huge amount of Spurs games this season, but is Dembele really playing as a box to box midfielder? I feel that he does offer support, but probably not quite so much as a B2B does in the game. He and Wanyama tend to stay a little deeper, with Dembele moving forward only when the space is there.

The combo of BWM and B2B could leave the centre of the park wide open, particularly if your wing-backs are called into action further upfield and then you turn the ball over. With three at the back you should have time to recover, but I would keep an eye on this pairing, with the idea that one of the two players would be a holding midfielder and pivot player, linking your defence and attack.

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Would imagine that Ozil's 3421 based around Wales isn't too far away from what you want especially with Eriksen as AP-a and a bit deeper than Alli as SS. Kane could do a job as defensive forward or could be changed to complete forward. 

 

Might need to Dembele-Wanyama roles though as Ozil has a BWM-d and DLP-s combo and neither Dembele or Wanyama are good enough on the ball to be a playmaker. As previously mentioned Wanyama stays very central and maybe a more disciplined role than BWM, maybe anchorman or a normal defensive midfielder. As far as Dembele is concerned he is one of my favourite players in the league with his rare mix of skills and I'd probably use him as DM-s but left of centre with Eriksen playing right of centre in the CM strata to allow Dembele space to make use of his fantastic dribbling ability. So I would line up something like this:

 

GK - Lloris - SK/s

RCB - Dier - CB/d

CB - Alderweireld - BPD/c

LCB - Vertonghen - BPD/d

RWB - Walker - WB/s or CWB/s

DMC - Wanyama - AM/d

DMLC - Dembele - DM/s

LWB - Rose - WB/s or CWB/s

RCM - Eriksen - AP/a

AMLC - Alli - SS/a

ST - Kane - DF/s or CF/s

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12 hours ago, DBurns said:

Would imagine that Ozil's 3421 based around Wales isn't too far away from what you want especially with Eriksen as AP-a and a bit deeper than Alli as SS. Kane could do a job as defensive forward or could be changed to complete forward. 

 

Might need to Dembele-Wanyama roles though as Ozil has a BWM-d and DLP-s combo and neither Dembele or Wanyama are good enough on the ball to be a playmaker. As previously mentioned Wanyama stays very central and maybe a more disciplined role than BWM, maybe anchorman or a normal defensive midfielder. As far as Dembele is concerned he is one of my favourite players in the league with his rare mix of skills and I'd probably use him as DM-s but left of centre with Eriksen playing right of centre in the CM strata to allow Dembele space to make use of his fantastic dribbling ability. So I would line up something like this:

 

GK - Lloris - SK/s

RCB - Dier - CB/d

CB - Alderweireld - BPD/c

LCB - Vertonghen - BPD/d

RWB - Walker - WB/s or CWB/s

DMC - Wanyama - AM/d

DMLC - Dembele - DM/s

LWB - Rose - WB/s or CWB/s

RCM - Eriksen - AP/a

AMLC - Alli - SS/a

ST - Kane - DF/s or CF/s

Totally agree with this outlook on the formation. Very well thought out and great roles to compliment transition play from defence to attack.

Cap docked sir

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I'd say if you want to replicate it as it was vs. Chelsea, I'd say go: 

 

752f3d61dbc56913bf1d9a89dc87a418.png

note: the outer cb's are stoppers

Instructions:

Exploit the left-wing [if you want it to be that similar to reality], work ball into the box, higher tempo [?], play wider, close down more.

Mentality and Shape:

Standard - should be adapted depending on situation - and structured.

PI's:

Dembele: Dribble more. Walker: Dribble less, fewer risky passes, pass shorter. Eriksen: More direct passes.

It's a bit tough to judge, as there's only a small sample size of games and Chelsea sat rather deep. This is based on a mixture of watching the game and pass-maps. The PI's like Eriksen for example, passing more direct to Alli and Kane, may have been an exploitation of Chelsea's lack of height on the right side of defence as Alli repeatedly targeted Azpilicueta and Moses in the air. Another example of the pass-maps influence is with Walker playing it short to Eriksen, for him to then make the killer ball; hence the lack of any real creativity coming from Walker. If you wanted to use this tactics, they'd be an example of a couple of adjustments you should make. 

Edited by DerKopite

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I'd already been using a version of this tactic for the last few months but with an out and out front three - CS AS CS, and a roaming playmaker in central midfield.

 

Tactic beats virtually everyone as the wing backs get forward to cross and have four players in the box to aim at - very rare for the opposition to have more than two-three players back to mark them so there's always someone free to score.

You also catch loads of teams on the break as the front three are normally matched up against two centre backs when the oppositions attacks break down.

 

 

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Thanks for the feedback so far.  While I am trying to replicate the tactic in general I am not focussed too much on the Chelsea game specifically, I agree with DerKopite that the left was exploited due to the opposition rather than an ongoing plan.

Played three league games prior to catching up with the thread with mixed results.  After thumping Man U 4-0 first off have then lost away to Sunderland 1-0 and beat Crystal Palace 1-0.  First thing of note is that I have had a rough start with injuries this save which have hampered things and exposed that when Rose is injured Davies is not good enough at WB to be effective in attack. 

Against Man U I was dominating until a couple of defensive injuries forced me to revert back to 4-2-3-1, still managed to add the last goal after this but possession dropped a little.  In the loss an errant back pass cost us (FM proving a point on two BPD's?) and despite 26 shots could not break through.  The Palace game was played 4-2-3-1 so nothing to focus on.

 

Things I am going to tinker with following the feedback:

Change the roles of the three defenders, agree with DBurns on this one.

Dembele, CM SU with the dribble more instruction is definitely the way to go.  However he is serving a big suspension following last seasons Chelsea game so the instruction will wait.

Eriksen more direct with the passing is also a must.

Dele Alli, Taking the Watford game into account as well I am still not sure shadow striker is the one to go for.  plus he scored, set up two and got MotM for the Man U game so will stick as is for now : )

 

 

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From the OP i would only really change a couple of bits... Shape from Fluid to Structured (Eriksen Alli and Kane do not drop back to defend and the distance from front to back is usually quite big i.e. long passes from verthongen or alderwiereld... also structured makes better use of playmakers)

in line with that i would change dembele to a DLP D and wanyama as DM S or BWM S

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I would be very curious to see how this progresses (and may even test a variation myself) as I am a fan of the way Spurs play when they employ 3 at the back.

Where you would need to be a little more cautious is on the roles you assign. There was an excellent post on a 12-step guide to playing FM (I can't remember the source, but I remember it being quoted several times since it was written) that talked about the number of specialist roles being dependent on the team shape. Whilst not hard and fast, I think it may prove to be a good baseline. For the fluid structure you're aiming for (which I would go along with), you want to have 1-2 specialist roles (give-or-take). You're initial setup scored, if my maths is right, 5.5 (0.5 attributed to any role that was borderline). 

Whilst I'm a big fan of O-zil's writing, the Wales setup (in its entirety) does not have the right team shape or mentality to replicate Spurs. 

I think DerKopite comes close, scoring 3.5 on the team shape (reducing to 3 if you change Rose to a WB). That said: 

I think the higher tempo may cause more shots to be rushed and be off-target (plus Spurs, annoyingly sometimes, don't move the ball as quickly as they are capable of). The higher tempo would also (I suspect) mean that you will have to drop the Control mentality as I don't think the 2 would combine well.

Which side you look to exploit is should factor in the opposition formation as well - where are the gaps to be exploited? If the opposition is playing narrow, consider putting both WB to CBW and possibly adjust your midfield to sit a little more rather than push forward (BBM -> CM perhaps). If you are exploiting either flank...possibly consider removing the "Play out of Defence" so that Lloris looks to play the ball to the relevant WB? (That said, Lloris does not have the best distribution...may want to work on that.)

IMO (though I'm still learning at this stage), the roles for Kane & Erikson are pretty mush set; the rest may need to be tweaked from time-to-time depending on what formation / style you are playing against.

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1 hour ago, westy8chimp said:

 

in line with that i would change dembele to a DLP D

Dembele definitely does not have the attributes or technicals to be a top DLP IMO. I see him more as a DM S in the left centre DM strata alongside Wanyama as a AM D centrally also in the DM strata.

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1 hour ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

Dembele definitely does not have the attributes or technicals to be a top DLP IMO. I see him more as a DM S in the left centre DM strata alongside Wanyama as a AM D centrally also in the DM strata.

he may not be great at it .. but i place more emphasis on the role than the player. bbm and bwm would create too many moments of poor positioning, congesting the attack and being open at the back... need someone to actually hold.. wanyama as an anchor man or DM (D) would suffice but makes the overall tactic worse by having the dm cm am line ... so better to have either a CM d or DLP d in CM strata. Dembele isn't outstanding but is ok in the role.

dropping both to DM is good choice too as you suggest. but then you curtail dembeles occasional brilliant attacking moments.

Edited by westy8chimp

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10 hours ago, westy8chimp said:

he may not be great at it .. but i place more emphasis on the role than the player. bbm and bwm would create too many moments of poor positioning, congesting the attack and being open at the back... need someone to actually hold.. wanyama as an anchor man or DM (D) would suffice but makes the overall tactic worse by having the dm cm am line ... so better to have either a CM d or DLP d in CM strata. Dembele isn't outstanding but is ok in the role.

dropping both to DM is good choice too as you suggest. but then you curtail dembeles occasional brilliant attacking moments.

If I recall correctly you can put both Dribble More and Get Further Forward on a DM-s, which would still give you a few of those mazy runs every game.

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I'd say Wanyama was a lot more involved than an Anchor man. Also completely owned Kante but that's another discussion.

 

 

Edited by Tiger666

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I wanted to share how I am faring with the formation (I hope you don't mind me adding to your thread Hackers76, but I thought that a single thread on the topic would be better than starting a different one - any feedback can then be found in one place).

I'm going to ignore the friendlies as I tend to find they have little bearing on the first few games of the season. 

My base setup (players initialed except for purchases) is as follows:

                                   GKd (HL)

                  CDd (ED)       BPDc (TA)      BPDd (JV)

WBa (KW)                                                          WBa (DR)

                          CMd (Thiago Maia)  DLPs (TC)

                        APs (CE)          AMa (DA)

                               CFs (HC)

 

I have opted to play a Structured / Control style - higher defensive line, width fairly wide, tighter marking & prevent GK dist. PooD 

Player instructions: WB dribble less; CMd shoot less, dribble less, fewer risky passes; DLP dribble more; AP more direct passes; AM dribble more; CF move into channels

 

My opponents were Bournemouth, playing 4-4-2 and I am at home. I had decided to watch until at least HT before making any adjustments.

Right from the start I saw that Bournemouth were having some joy playing balls through to the strikers and getting between my CBs. They were pretty good in possession and had pulled TA out of position to close down, only to slide a ball through the an onrushing player that darted through that gap. 0-1 on 7 minutes. It wasn't the only time they got through, though it was the only time they scored. 

We equalised in the 20th minute - though via a corner so neither here nor there on the tactical front. 

My other concerns watching the first half were: 

My CMd was not covering my back line as much as I would have liked. 

I was taking too many potshots from outside the box. My SoT was horrendous. There would be some nice short passing between my 3 advanced players, but it almost always culminated in a shot from distance that flew over the bar.

 

At HT I adjusted TA to close down less and decided to try to work the ball into the box.

There was very little change in the 2nd half - DA had to be subbed due to injury (Onamah came on and role adjusted to SS); TC was replaced by Sissoko and adjusted to CMs

Having TA close down less did seem to help and I'm wondering if I should have 2/3 set up that way...for now I will stick as is.

Working the ball into the box didn't help. I didn't have a single shot on target in the 2nd half. It finished 1-1 and both DA and HK played particularly poorly. 

I have attached the match stats, but I couldn't work out how to get the screenshots into the reply, so I have no idea if anyone will be able to see the files I attached.

 

Post-match

I will definitely decrease the closing down for my BPDc

I think I will adjust my AM to roam from position - he and the AP seemed to occupy the same space more than I would like.

Even with a structured setup, I'm wondering if having 2 play-makers is a mistake. I will adjust the DLPs to a CMs and see how that fares.

I'm not sure how to adjust the CMd. I don't really want to drop him into the DM strata and create yet another layer through the middle. At little more watch and see I think.

I'm also not sure if I need to adjust something with the CF. He managed 7 shots; 4 off target and 3 blocked. It could just be a bad day at the office, or congestion due to the midfielders behind him. I will see how the next couple of games pan out.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Game 2: Southampton (away) playing 4-1-2-3 DM Wide

My changes to the first game are:

  • BPDc set to close down less
  • WBs have dribble less removed
  • DLPs changed to CMs
  • AM changed to SS and set to roam (DA injured, replaced by SHM)
  • Width changed from fairly wide to balanced - I wasn't sure what effect this was having on my 3 defenders.

The first half had me banging my head against my desk. There were far too many balls over the top of my defence (mainly over TA) and, whilst the others would manage to prevent a chance at goal, they didn't do so regularly. I was lucky to only be 1-0 down at the break. I don't remember much of note going forwards...a few half chances from the edge of the box, but nothing to write home about.

My HT adjustments:

  • Defensive line reduced to normal - try to reduce balls over the top
  • WBs changed to CWBa (I had a facepalm moment when I realised that my WB were set to support rather than attack)
  • Include the instruction to exploit the flanks - that's where the space is.

The 2nd half performance was better.

  • There were still balls over the top, but less of them and they were less effective.
  • My WB play improved and they contributed more going forward.
  • CE created space by pulling 3 players towards him, laid it off to TC who pushed the ball to the side and unleashed a shot from the edge of the box that couldn't be stopped. 1-1
  • DR, late on, found himself in the box thanks to the new role, pulled the ball back to sub VJ and his shot was deflected into the net. 1-2
  • Southampton then renewed their attacking efforts, but to no effect. FS 1-2
  • Subs: Maia>Wanyama; Son>Onamah; Kane>Jansson

 

Post Match

  • Whilst I will not always operate with CWB, I will at least remember to change them from support to attacking as standard!
  • I'm not sure about the structured setup. I'm wondering if it is adversely affecting the movement and play of my advanced players...maybe it's worth adjusting against "weaker" sides...something to consider.
  • Given the games so far, I think I'm going to drop my d-line for a little while...or find quicker defenders (though the d-line for now).

 

..and then game crashes and I lose the games played today...

 

Overview 1.docx

Stats 1.docx

Edited by Jorsin

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Ok, having had to replay my competitive fixtures, I made the adjustments I had identified in the games above to have a setup of:

 

                         GK(d)

          CD(s)     BPD(c)     BPD(s)

WB(a)                                          WB(a)

                 CM(d)    CM(s)

                AP(s)     SS(a)

                       CF(s)

I started with a Structured / Control setup but, after the first couple of games, changed from Structured to Fluid. I found that, whilst the defence was fine (no goals conceded and very few chances presented), my front 3 were not playing well.

I have a normal d-line to negate the balls over the top that I was frequently seeing, maxed closing down + ticking the other closing down boxes & play out of defence. Other instructions tend to be added during the game depending on any problems I see or opportunities that I want to exploit (usually exploiting flanks & playing wider). The setup tends to see most of my attacking play going through the middle.

The BPD(c) closes down less, the CM(s) dribbles more (taking into consideration the Dembele posts above, I used Tom Carroll during the suspension and he performed well enough to keep his place in the side. He links up very well with the AP); the SS roams and the CF moves into the channels.

So far (I'm only 10 competitive games in...the 2nd time round) it seems pretty solid. I'm 8-2 in all competitions and 16-3 on goals scored/conceded. My blips were 1-0 away losses (Man U and PSG). My only other game against "bigger" sides was a 3-0 home win against Chelsea. 

My front 3 are playing better, but I still don't think they are performing to the best of their abilities. They are nice and intricate up to the edge of the area, then they seem to run out of ideas - even though I will see an opening they should exploit / through ball to be played. I will sometimes change Alli from SS to AM(a)...but I haven't seen too significant a change between his roles and the SS role tends to stop him bumping into Erikson as much. 

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Might be worth switching Erikson to a Trequartista role, to get him drifting about more, IIRC he's been floating out to the wing to provide width and deliver killer crosses quite a bit?

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8 minutes ago, BoxToBox said:

Might be worth switching Erikson to a Trequartista role, to get him drifting about more, IIRC he's been floating out to the wing to provide width and deliver killer crosses quite a bit?

Interesting...certainly worth a trial I think.

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29 minutes ago, JayJay8 said:

Passmap from today's game:

 

C2JSUbIWQAIJ6Z1.jpg

Interesting that Wanyama is as high up as Dembele. I wonder how much of that was down to the opponent.

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I've been following this topic with a lot of interest, i do have a question though. I'm 2-3 season's in and having a look around to replace Dembele as he's getting old (what's old in Fm17?)

i was thinking of using Dier in his position and Carter-vickers in defense. But maybe Winks might be a decent option as well. Otherwise i was looking at buying players, either a defender or midfielder. Having a look at N'zonzi

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3 hours ago, Colouredindigo said:

I've been following this topic with a lot of interest, i do have a question though. I'm 2-3 season's in and having a look around to replace Dembele as he's getting old (what's old in Fm17?)

i was thinking of using Dier in his position and Carter-vickers in defense. But maybe Winks might be a decent option as well. Otherwise i was looking at buying players, either a defender or midfielder. Having a look at N'zonzi

Mario Lemina if you can get him.

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Anyone had much luck getting the outside CB's to push forward when in possession a la Dier and especially Vertonghen?

I'm doing a second Spurs save, this time with no transfers and trying to mimic Poch's 3-4-2-1 initially, although with room for further experimentation.

CB's on Defend duty are hard-coded to Hold Position, and while Stopper and Cover aren't, none of the CB roles allow you to encourage forward movement when you are in possession. I've had Vertonghen with a Dribble More PPI, but that doesn't seem to make much difference. There is the possibility to train them to Get Forward Whenever Possible, but I'm struggling to find how else I might be able to get them doing this.

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37 minutes ago, dojoneil said:

Anyone had much luck getting the outside CB's to push forward when in possession a la Dier and especially Vertonghen?

I'm doing a second Spurs save, this time with no transfers and trying to mimic Poch's 3-4-2-1 initially, although with room for further experimentation.

CB's on Defend duty are hard-coded to Hold Position, and while Stopper and Cover aren't, none of the CB roles allow you to encourage forward movement when you are in possession. I've had Vertonghen with a Dribble More PPI, but that doesn't seem to make much difference. There is the possibility to train them to Get Forward Whenever Possible, but I'm struggling to find how else I might be able to get them doing this.

Have the same issue and going to try one of the most radical approachs I've gone for in FM - moving the outer CBs into the DM strata as Defensive Midfielders as part of an extremely fluid, high-pressing system.

Mentality: Attacking

Team Shape: Very Fluid

Team Instructions: More Closing Down, Prevent Short GK Distribution, Get Stuck In, Work Ball into Box, Roam From Positions

Lloris: SKd. Tackle Harder, Roll It Out, Distribute Quickly, Shorter Passing, Fewer Risky Passes, Distribute to Centre Backs. A very heavily modified sweeper keepers, with the aim being for Hugo to still come out quickly to deal with any trouble, balls over the top etc but to forgo the counter-attacking passes in favour of just keeping possession while taking as few risks as possible. 

Alderweireld: BPDd. Shoot More Often to take advantage of his superb Long Shots and Technique if he's ever in a position to - maybe from a set play or if we're chasing a goal at the end of a game, but I expect it to hardly ever come into play.

Vertonghen: DMs. Dribble More, More Risky Passes. Trying to replicate the extremely aggressive CB role he plays in real life.

Dier: DMs. More Risky Passes. Same as above, but without the dribbling due to his lesser technical ability.

Walker/Rose: DWs. Get Further Forward. The aim here is to counter the attacking full/wing-backs employed by much of the league by giving these two the role of closing them down and punishing any forays forward, relying on the DMs to help deal with any wingers if they're caught too far up the pitch while the other-sided DM helps out Alderweireld. Again risky, but all part of the experiment.

Wanayma: BWMd. Self-explanatory really, close down as much as possible and choke the opposition.

Dembélé: B2Bs.  Again, just let Dembélé do as Dembélé does as part of the fluid system.

Eriksen: AMs. More Risky Passes, Move Into Channels. Slightly unusual role choice but I think AP would often leave him too uninvolved for my liking, so I adapted the AM role with risky passing instead.

Alli: SSa. Should contribute quite a few goals, and his PPM of Drops Deep to Get Ball should balance out the role somewhat and keep him involved.

Kane: CFa. Lead the line, score, do everything, just continue being the best striker in England.

 

Here goes nothing! Going to play in Touch mode to concentrate on the tactics and streamline things a bit, especially as this idea is tailored to the team and could go to **** quickly if anybody suddenly decides they want to join Abu Dhabi City or whatever other nonsense.

 

 

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1 hour ago, Spurs08 said:

Have the same issue and going to try one of the most radical approachs I've gone for in FM - moving the outer CBs into the DM strata as Defensive Midfielders as part of an extremely fluid, high-pressing system.

Mentality: Attacking

Team Shape: Very Fluid

Team Instructions: More Closing Down, Prevent Short GK Distribution, Get Stuck In, Work Ball into Box, Roam From Positions

Lloris: SKd. Tackle Harder, Roll It Out, Distribute Quickly, Shorter Passing, Fewer Risky Passes, Distribute to Centre Backs. A very heavily modified sweeper keepers, with the aim being for Hugo to still come out quickly to deal with any trouble, balls over the top etc but to forgo the counter-attacking passes in favour of just keeping possession while taking as few risks as possible. 

Alderweireld: BPDd. Shoot More Often to take advantage of his superb Long Shots and Technique if he's ever in a position to - maybe from a set play or if we're chasing a goal at the end of a game, but I expect it to hardly ever come into play.

Vertonghen: DMs. Dribble More, More Risky Passes. Trying to replicate the extremely aggressive CB role he plays in real life.

Dier: DMs. More Risky Passes. Same as above, but without the dribbling due to his lesser technical ability.

Walker/Rose: DWs. Get Further Forward. The aim here is to counter the attacking full/wing-backs employed by much of the league by giving these two the role of closing them down and punishing any forays forward, relying on the DMs to help deal with any wingers if they're caught too far up the pitch while the other-sided DM helps out Alderweireld. Again risky, but all part of the experiment.

Wanayma: BWMd. Self-explanatory really, close down as much as possible and choke the opposition.

Dembélé: B2Bs.  Again, just let Dembélé do as Dembélé does as part of the fluid system.

Eriksen: AMs. More Risky Passes, Move Into Channels. Slightly unusual role choice but I think AP would often leave him too uninvolved for my liking, so I adapted the AM role with risky passing instead.

Alli: SSa. Should contribute quite a few goals, and his PPM of Drops Deep to Get Ball should balance out the role somewhat and keep him involved.

Kane: CFa. Lead the line, score, do everything, just continue being the best striker in England.

 

Here goes nothing! Going to play in Touch mode to concentrate on the tactics and streamline things a bit, especially as this idea is tailored to the team and could go to **** quickly if anybody suddenly decides they want to join Abu Dhabi City or whatever other nonsense.

 

 

Please let us know how this goes

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Hi all. I've read this thread with interest as both a Spurs fan, and an FMer looking to do something similar to this with Monaco. We had a good first season playing with a tried and tested Simeone/Atletico replica I've developed over the last couple of FMs, but second season syndrome hit pretty hard - I lost a couple of key players to big clubs, and it seems the AI has figured me out - and so have been working on a 3-4-2-1.

I wondered if you have guys have considered using opposition instructions to help develop this? When replicating Simeone, who has a very specific press rather than just a general one, I found that useful. I was thinking that for Spurs, it might make sense to "always" close down the opposing keeper, and players in the defensive line or wing back/defensive midfield line, rather than to have the more general "close down more often" TI. I thought this might more accurately replicate the way Spurs harass the opponent when they have the ball at the back. What do you think?

Also, I saw someone here talking about Davies being an unsuitable back-up to Rose. I recommend taking a look at both Jorge and Benjamin Mendy at Monaco - they're not 4 or 5 star players but their attributes are perfect for the wing-back role. Fabinho is also an ideal replacement for the ageing Moussa Dembele, which I know someone mentioned above.

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Very interesting thread, and an extremely difficult tactic to try and replicate. Attempted this at Everton but results were so poor it doesn't bear sharing! I would suggest though that the only way to get a CB to play as a high as the outside ones do for spurs, particularly Super Jan, would be with the PPM get forward whenever possible. One thing I don't like about this FM is the relatively limited options of specific PIs for certain positions; the get further forward PI would be ideal for the wide CBs at spurs but sadly can't be selected.

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I think I've got a formation in my Spurs save that emulates the way they play in real life quite effectively with a high line, aggressive pressing and the wing backs bombing on, neat interplay between the front 3 and even the centre backs on either side pushing on and joining in attacks.

Control / Very Fluid

GK - SK (S) - distribute to CBs. Hugo LLORIS. 

CB - BPD (D) - dribble more, shorter passing. Eric DIER. He will bring the ball out effectively and even pop up on the edge of the penalty area. Cameron CARTER-VICKERS is a very good back up.

CB - BPD (C) - more direct passing. Toby ALDERWEIRELD. Does perform well on FM and in my save has the highest average rating in the team behind Kane. But while he dominates the defence like in real life, he doesn't dictate the passing tempo of the team from the back acting like that 'quarter back' role as he does for real. 

CB - BPD (D) - dribble more, shorter passing. Jan VERTONGHEN. See Eric Dier. I also find Kevin WIMMER is a great understudy for this position.

RWB - CWB (A) - fewer risky passes, shorter passing, shoot less often. Kyle WALKER. Although he got injured in my save for 7 months and TRIPPIER excelled in his place bombing up and down and getting plenty of assists.

LWB - CWB (A) - fewer risky passes shorter passing, shoot less often. Danny ROSE. He is just a beast in this position. Although i had to sell Ben DAVIES as unlike in real life in FM i just couldn't train him to adapt to the role. I bought Guilherme ARANA as a back up to Rose.

DMRC - RPM (S) - shorter passing. Victor WANYAMA. I started off with him as a BWM but my formation really came into its own when i gave him a roaming playmaker role from the DM (right) position. He picks the ball up deep and bursts forward with it like he has done this season roaming about the midfield breaking up play and rocking up on the edge of the opposition box as well. I've actually recently dropped him for Alessandro MURGIA who i picked up on the cheap from Lazio and who is turning into a beast after being tutored by Wanyama! 

MLC - BWM (S) - shorter passing, shoot less often, dribble more, fewer risky passes. Mousa DEMBELE. The guy is a monster in this role. In my current save he's still the number one pick in my midfield. He always gets decent ratings with a simple passing game, winning the  a ball back and occassionally goes on those mazy runs before laying it off to a team mate.

AMRC - SS (A) - shorter passing. Christian ERIKSEN. As an AP both S and A he did nothing, poor average ratings, no passing, no assists, no goals. As a shadow striker he plays much like he does in real life, getting involved in the build up play high up the pitch, playing one-twos with the wing-back, playing off Alli and Kane and getting goals and assists. He is injury prone in my save though with two lengthy injuries and i have started playing Milinkovic SAVIC who I originally bought as a long term replacement for Dembele in this position and he is a BEAST.

AMLC - SS (A) - shorter passing, shoot more often, roam from position. Dele ALLI is given a free role in the real Spurs team and so too in mine. With his drop deep to get ball trait and the roam from position instruction selected he plays just how he does in real life. He's second too goal scorer behind Kane for me.

CF - DLF (A) - shoot more often, dribble less, fewer risky passes. Who else but Harry KANE? I've found if he's getting marked out the game or crowded out switching him between this and a CF (S or A) and a DLF (S) is effective.

The only thing i cant seem to replicate despite his player trait of tries long range passes and asking him to play more direct passes is Alderweireld pinging balls right onto the feet oofthe wing backs as they run wide in behind the opposition.

As a Spurs fan that is a big feature of our counter attacking play using this formation and it's the one thing missing from the replication I've come up with.

Edited by Monkeynuts

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On 4/4/2017 at 23:34, Monkeynuts said:

I think I've got a formation in my Spurs save that emulates the way they play in real life quite effectively with a high line, aggressive pressing and the wing backs bombing on, neat interplay between the front 3 and even the centre backs on either side pushing on and joining in attacks.

Control / Very Fluid

GK - SK (S) - distribute to CBs. Hugo LLORIS. 

CB - BPD (D) - dribble more, shorter passing. Eric DIER. He will bring the ball out effectively and even pop up on the edge of the penalty area. Cameron CARTER-VICKERS is a very good back up.

CB - BPD (C) - more direct passing. Toby ALDERWEIRELD. Does perform well on FM and in my save has the highest average rating in the team behind Kane. But while he dominates the defence like in real life, he doesn't dictate the passing tempo of the team from the back acting like that 'quarter back' role as he does for real. 

CB - BPD (D) - dribble more, shorter passing. Jan VERTONGHEN. See Eric Dier. I also find Kevin WIMMER is a great understudy for this position.

RWB - CWB (A) - fewer risky passes, shorter passing, shoot less often. Kyle WALKER. Although he got injured in my save for 7 months and TRIPPIER excelled in his place bombing up and down and getting plenty of assists.

LWB - CWB (A) - fewer risky passes shorter passing, shoot less often. Danny ROSE. He is just a beast in this position. Although i had to sell Ben DAVIES as unlike in real life in FM i just couldn't train him to adapt to the role. I bought Guilherme ARANA as a back up to Rose.

DMRC - RPM (S) - shorter passing. Victor WANYAMA. I started off with him as a BWM but my formation really came into its own when i gave him a roaming playmaker role from the DM (right) position. He picks the ball up deep and bursts forward with it like he has done this season roaming about the midfield breaking up play and rocking up on the edge of the opposition box as well. I've actually recently dropped him for Alessandro MURGIA who i picked up on the cheap from Lazio and who is turning into a beast after being tutored by Wanyama! 

MLC - BWM (S) - shorter passing, shoot less often, dribble more, fewer risky passes. Mousa DEMBELE. The guy is a monster in this role. In my current save he's still the number one pick in my midfield. He always gets decent ratings with a simple passing game, winning the  a ball back and occassionally goes on those mazy runs before laying it off to a team mate.

AMRC - SS (A) - shorter passing. Christian ERIKSEN. As an AP both S and A he did nothing, poor average ratings, no passing, no assists, no goals. As a shadow striker he plays much like he does in real life, getting involved in the build up play high up the pitch, playing one-twos with the wing-back, playing off Alli and Kane and getting goals and assists. He is injury prone in my save though with two lengthy injuries and i have started playing Milinkovic SAVIC who I originally bought as a long term replacement for Dembele in this position and he is a BEAST.

AMLC - SS (A) - shorter passing, shoot more often, roam from position. Dele ALLI is given a free role in the real Spurs team and so too in mine. With his drop deep to get ball trait and the roam from position instruction selected he plays just how he does in real life. He's second too goal scorer behind Kane for me.

CF - DLF (A) - shoot more often, dribble less, fewer risky passes. Who else but Harry KANE? I've found if he's getting marked out the game or crowded out switching him between this and a CF (S or A) and a DLF (S) is effective.

The only thing i cant seem to replicate despite his player trait of tries long range passes and asking him to play more direct passes is Alderweireld pinging balls right onto the feet oofthe wing backs as they run wide in behind the opposition.

As a Spurs fan that is a big feature of our counter attacking play using this formation and it's the one thing missing from the replication I've come up with.

Mind sharing the tactic? or the team instructions?

And how do you make the BPD (C) play more direct passes?

Edited by poma

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On 07/04/2017 at 11:37, poma said:

Mind sharing the tactic? or the team instructions?

And how do you make the BPD (C) play more direct passes?

 

Okay so I checked over the weekend and I'm afraid I was mistaken about the BPD on cover duty. He is limited by the tactic to shorter passing. This may have come via the move to control and my selection in the team instructions which i did to improve performances and to replicate the kind of football Pochettino plays at Spurs. But i did mention that the sacrifice in this tactic is that i cannot replicate in FM17 the "quarter back" type role that Alderweireld plays in this Spurs team, hanging back and being able to see the whole pitch ahead of him before hitting a long raking pass usually to the wing-backs or full-backs but also to Kane, Alli or Son on occasion.

 

So to the team instructions:

Control / Very Fluid

Lower tempo

Fairly Wide

Defensive line as high up as it will go

Closing down much more (as high as it will go)

Prevent short GK distribution

Play out from the back

Shorter passing

Wait for overlap

Work the ball into the box

Whipped crosses

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Having a very high defensive line against good sides like City, Utd etc might be risky. Not sure what the overlap is for since there are no side midfielders so that's pretty pointless.

Also, lower tempo might do well, but Pochettino generally wants the team to move the ball around with some quickness.

Edited by Armistice

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Maybe move Aldererield to Half Back, Sweeper or Regista?

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31 minutes ago, Teabs said:

Maybe move Aldererield to Half Back, Sweeper or Regista?

I don't know about Sweeper because I never used that role before, but I don't think Halfback or Regista replicates Alderweireld. The former returns to a DMC position when team is not in possession and the latter acts as a playmaker and moves further up the field when team is in possession.

Edited by Armistice

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Sweeper might be appropriate for Alderweireld. I've been using it lately in Italy and the role combined with two other CB's turns into a nice back three when in possession. I don't know though if it really preserves the offside trap enough in FM terms, which can be important for a side with a high line.

The real interesting thing that is not really replicable in FM terms is Vertonghen and Dier's roles in the Pochettino 3-4-3. Occasionally during the match you'll see one of them drive forward and contribute to the attack. This can be helpful in unparking a bus because it brings an extra unexpected body who may be unmarked. I would like this to be possible with a "Very Fluid" system, but FM doesn't seem that sophisticated. Perhaps CB's can be given a role option that lets them drive forward now and again, similar but not the same as a Libero.

Lately we've been playing with the ol' 4-2-3-1 again, with Dier acting as a Half Back. Will be interesting to see what Poch brings against Chelsea tomorrow. Davies is a poor substitute for Rose as a wingback, so we may not be able to thrash them again with a 3-4-3.

EDIT: Well, it turned out to be Son at wingback who then conceded a penalty. Who would have guessed?

Edited by Argonaut

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@Argonaut What if you train your player with the "Gets Into Opposition Area" ppm or the "Gets Forward Whenever Possible"?
Have you tried that?

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I have a centre back with Runs With Ball Often (in an FM15 save). I don't think I've ever seen him do anything of the like. I get the feeling CBs are coded to be very conservative in possession.

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Let me quote from http://www.guidetofootballmanager.com/players/player-preferred-moves about the "Gets Into Opposition Area":
"The player will be more likely to enter the opposition penalty area when your team is attacking.
This can allow him to receive the ball in threatening positions close to the opposition goal more often.
It is similar to the Gets Forward Whenever Possible, but even more offensive".


So, it's more likely he does that instead of "runs with ball often", cause it's more "simple", right?
 

Edited by ilkork

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I don't think a PPM is the answer. For instance, if you switch to a back 4, then you'll want your CB's to hold position while the fullbacks are the ones who bomb forward. Vertonghen and Dier in the 3-4-3 are really CB's who need something other than the usual BPD/CD/LD roles to replicate what they do. Then if you switch to 4-2-3-1 you can change your CB's back to BPD or CD.

SI should get this right for FM18, especially since back 3 systems are starting to get hot in the football world.

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Not FM specific, but a good general overview of Poch's tactical approach this season.

 

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On 21 April 2017 at 19:39, Argonaut said:

Vertonghen and Dier in the 3-4-3 are really CB's who need something other than the usual BPD/CD/LD roles to replicate what they do. Then if you switch to 4-2-3-1 you can change your CB's back to BPD or CD.

SI should get this right for FM18, especially since back 3 systems are starting to get hot in the football world.

At the moment the BPD fits Alderweireld's role better, with Hold Position (on Defend duty) and More Risky Passes both hard-coded. Making these two PI's plus the Dribble More/Less options and Get Further Forward all selectable would allow us to create different types of Ball-Playing Defenders, with the ability to select Get Further Forward allowing you to have centre-backs stepping up into midfield in the way Vertonghen and Dier do, or the way Luiz does for Chelsea.

Edited by dojoneil

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@dojoneil Yeah I agree it could be done with selectable instructions. I worry though that this would make them do it all the time rather than once in a while (and never at the same time) like the Tottenham CBs.

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@Argonaut Get Further Forward should only increase the frequency of those moves forward rather then telling them to continually get forward (in the way that an Attack or Support duty would), and of course CB's have a pretty low mentality so they'd be relatively conservative anyway. Then it's down to the players attributes (Decisions, Positioning, Off the Ball etc.) in deciding how effective they are playing that role.

Generally speaking, I'm not a fan of having so many PI's hard-coded on and off for certain roles, I'd much prefer them to be pre-selected but with the option to tweak in order to create more specialised roles for a certain system or player. That would be something I'd like to see in future versions.

Edited by dojoneil

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This is created based on the passmap above. I started with control but Kane just can't score to save his life in the league. Alot of players seems to be playing too fast and rushing their shots. I switched to defence(from that Burnley game onwards) and Kane from CF(A) to DLF(S) so he won't dribble so much. He scored 5 goals in 7 games from open play. The defence is also tighter as well with 6 clean sheets in 7. 

 

Tottenham Hotspur_  Senior Fixtures-3.png

Tottenham Hotspur_  Overview-2.png

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1 hour ago, vasilli07 said:

This is created based on the passmap above. I started with control but Kane just can't score to save his life in the league. Alot of players seems to be playing too fast and rushing their shots. I switched to defence(from that Burnley game onwards) and Kane from CF(A) to DLF(S) so he won't dribble so much. He scored 5 goals in 7 games from open play. The defence is also tighter as well with 6 clean sheets in 7. 

 

Tottenham Hotspur_  Senior Fixtures-3.png

Tottenham Hotspur_  Overview-2.png

I like this interpretation! It reminds me of Chelsea when they play tougher opponents. They then let Pedro play the Eriksen role and drop besides Kanté to strengthen the midfield.

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After a while of playing with the 4-2-3-1, Spurs went back to the 3-4-2-1 today, and carved open a rubbish Leicester side. They went from champions to Championship quality in the last year, what a disaster. Anyway.

The biggest change in the last couple of games with this formation is Eric Dier playing as the sweeper in the middle, and Alderweireld on the right side of the back 3. Toby is still very much a BPD, spraying a patented long switch ball for one of the early goals. He also did what I talked about earlier, surging forward to the byline and putting in a cross for one of Kane's goals in the second half. Like I said, no real way to replicate this in FM now. But a backline of BPD-X -- CD-C -- BPD-X might work well in FM, with the increased mentality of the stopper duty Jan and Toby might do some cool things.

Eriksen was resting today, and Dele Alli and Son played behind Kane as two Shadow Strikers to good effect. Because of injury Sissoko played at RWB. I would prefer if he was on the bench because everytime he's on the pitch his re-sale value goes down.

I think Poch's preferred 11 with this formation would look like the below, with Wanyama in the empty slot (took this shot with FM16). You could argue he prefers Tripper nowadays over Walker, but we'll see what happens in the summer. Son has been so good this year that you have to work him in the team often, likely in a 4-2-3-1 in the band of three, dropping Dier from the back. I think Dier is the worst player in our usual lineup, but he seems much loved by Poch.

tottenham.png

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3 hours ago, Argonaut said:

After a while of playing with the 4-2-3-1, Spurs went back to the 3-4-2-1 today, and carved open a rubbish Leicester side. They went from champions to Championship quality in the last year, what a disaster. Anyway.

The biggest change in the last couple of games with this formation is Eric Dier playing as the sweeper in the middle, and Alderweireld on the right side of the back 3. Toby is still very much a BPD, spraying a patented long switch ball for one of the early goals. He also did what I talked about earlier, surging forward to the byline and putting in a cross for one of Kane's goals in the second half. Like I said, no real way to replicate this in FM now. But a backline of BPD-X -- CD-C -- BPD-X might work well in FM, with the increased mentality of the stopper duty Jan and Toby might do some cool things.

Eriksen was resting today, and Dele Alli and Son played behind Kane as two Shadow Strikers to good effect. Because of injury Sissoko played at RWB. I would prefer if he was on the bench because everytime he's on the pitch his re-sale value goes down.

I think Poch's preferred 11 with this formation would look like the below, with Wanyama in the empty slot (took this shot with FM16). You could argue he prefers Tripper nowadays over Walker, but we'll see what happens in the summer. Son has been so good this year that you have to work him in the team often, likely in a 4-2-3-1 in the band of three, dropping Dier from the back. I think Dier is the worst player in our usual lineup, but he seems much loved by Poch.

tottenham.png

Won't the CD(c) interfere with the offside trap? I would also question the wing backs, in relation to mirroring real life. Rose (when fit) does a lot more work, in terms of build up, than Walker. Walker has pretty much two modes. (1) chasing back & (2) overlaps in the opponents half. Rose is a much less penetrative player* but makes up for it by being an excellent support player along the left flank as the ball moves up the lines.  I realise that this creates balance problems but that may be a limitation of the game itself, much like the inability to recreate offensive centre backs in the mould of TA&JV.

*When I say that I mean that often Walker's first thought is to drive at the opposition defence or play a penetrating pass into space/a forwards' feet. Where as Rose' style of build up is more team based. He rarely just bypasses midfield. He works his way forward in a sequence of one twos and little triangles.

Edited by Teabs

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I've had a go, I'm a Spurs fan so I see them every week. I'm going purely on the in-game descriptions and matching it with what I perceive the players to do in real life.

4-2-3-1

GK: Lloris = SK(d)

RB: Walker = WB(s)

RCB: Alderweireld = BPD(d)

LCB: Vertonghen = BPD(d)

LB: Rose = WB(a)

CMR: Wanyama = BWM(d)

CML: Dembele = RPM(s)

AMCR: Ericksen = AP(s)

AMC: Alli = SS(a)

AML: Son = RMD(a)

ST: Kane = CF(s)

 

3-4-3

GK: Lloris = SK(d)

CDR: Alderweireld = BPD(st)

CDC: Dier = CD(d)

CDL: Vertonghen = BPD(st)

RWB: Walker = WB(s)

CMR: Wanyama = BWM(d)

CML: Dembele = RPM(s)

LWB: Rose = WB(a)

AMCR: Ericksen = AP(s)

AMCL: Alli = SS(a)

ST: Kane = CF(s)

You could make an argument about Kane playing as a DF(d) or maybe Alli sometimes playing as an AM(s). Dembele is given greater licence against the weaker sides which could change his role.

There's also a debate to be had about Team Shape. It makes intuitive sense to pick Fluid or Very Fluid given the movement and interchange but in actual fact the shape in transition tends to be quite structured. Defenders hanging back on cover and some immediately exploiting space whilst the others adopt little build-up triangles in the middle third of the pitch.

Edited by Teabs

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