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1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

OMG where does setting defensive mentality = playing defensive football?

 

Ok if I show you stats that showed this:

Real Madrid 0 - 1 Torino 
35% vs 65%
2 Shots on goal vs 20 shots on goal

That match was me playing with a defensive mentality, true, but I also controlled the match, all areas of the pitch, allowed them no counter attacks, instead I was the one to control the match and pepper them with goals. It's because you are so rigid in your own definitions of the game that you can see the possibilities that lie in front of you.

 

Edited by James9

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In your 4312formation what PI do you give to your 3 central midfielders. I think you mention in post 4 that players who are not expected to create would be given shorter passing and play less risky passes. Would this apply to your central midfielders in your system. 

I am assuming that you are play with a high block in your 4312 meaning the front 3 are all pressing 

Edited by James9

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On December 3, 2016 at 04:52, Rashidi said:

The Wolves Experiment - Crossover - The Holiday Mode Test

So if you've been following my Torino Diaries lately, I have been talking about Counter Pressing. I don't claim that we can produce or replicate the 3 styles entirely, but I do believe we can capture the essence of the systems in tactics that we make. I do believe that these systems need to be well thought out and we need to give a lot of thought to who plays. So I decided wouldn't it be interesting to cross over to a club in the Championship, that isn't a favorite for promotion and try and see if the principles worked? So the goal of the experiment is to find out how a side would do after being set up to follow these principles, the assistant manager will be in charge of all games while this game is run on holiday mode.

  • Counter Pressing Principles
  • Prevent Counter attacks
  • Dominate games
  • Fluidity of roles
  • Working together as a unit

How do we Counter Press and achieve the goals?

451Tactic.jpgWe will be using a 451, this system plays with 2 Inside Forwards and 1 Striker

Attributes (Teamwork, Work-rate)
Players need these attributes otherwise, they don't have the quality needed to have positional fluidity. By positional fluidity I am only explicitly expecting them to support transitions. They need to work as a unit.

Fluidity 
We need to play on Very Fluid mentality, to allow for more players to participate in transitions

High Block/Medium Block 
Players in the forward strata are given close down much more. Depending on the grid you want closed down, selected players in midfield strata are given close down much more

Short Passing
To dominate games, Wolves need to ensure they don't give the ball unnecessarily, so selected players will be given short passing, these include those that don't have roles that explicitly require them to create. These positions will also be told to play less risky passes. 

Roles
Attack roles increased since we will be playing Very Fluid, I need a bit more movement to generate chances.  3 Attack Roles, 4 Support Roles. Each strata placed with one attack role to allow dynamic movement. This is to ensure that even with very fluid, we get more movement vertically across the pitch. I require this for some positional flexibility. Right roles are vital, we need pivots in every area we want our attacking thrusts to come from. For example if I plan to drive through the middle and come in late from midfield there must be an Attack Duty in midfield and a Support/Defend duty in attack to encourage vertical movement. 

Defensive Line
For this experiment the Asst Manager will run the whole season, while I watch television. To encourage the High Block we will play on a pushed up defensive line.

Tempo will be increased slightly

To encourage lateral movement around the final third we will use the Work Ball into Box instruction

Prevent GK short distribution - this shout seems extraneous because we are not operating with a narrow attack and 3 in the box, we will still leave it in

Interesting experiment Rashidi. You mentioned using 2 Inside Forwards and 1 Striker. What is the Striker's role, CF-S? Are IFs both Attack or Support duty? I would guess the rest of the roles are:

SK-S

DL = FB-S

DCR+DCL = CD-D

DR = FB-A

MC = CM-D

MCR = CM-S

MCL = CM-A

Are the defenders and the most defensive CM the only players instructed to play short passing and less risky passes?

Regarding the pressing, who closes down much more from the midfielder roles? I know you said "depending on the grid" and I assume the middle or the outer grids on either side. Therefore, either the CM-D will close down much more (middle grid) or the MCL and MCR will (the outer grids), or third option is to make just one side press much more. Is this type of pressing kind of illustrating Pep's model?

And lastly, in Very Fluid shape is the duty more important or the role when creating lateral movement? I'm thinking duty more so than role, am I correct?

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I've experimented

1 hour ago, yonko said:

Interesting experiment Rashidi. You mentioned using 2 Inside Forwards and 1 Striker. What is the Striker's role, CF-S? Are IFs both Attack or Support duty? I would guess the rest of the roles are:

SK-S

DL = FB-S

DCR+DCL = CD-D

DR = FB-A

MC = CM-D

MCR = CM-S

MCL = CM-A

Are the defenders and the most defensive CM the only players instructed to play short passing and less risky passes?

Regarding the pressing, who closes down much more from the midfielder roles? I know you said "depending on the grid" and I assume the middle or the outer grids on either side. Therefore, either the CM-D will close down much more (middle grid) or the MCL and MCR will (the outer grids), or third option is to make just one side press much more. Is this type of pressing kind of illustrating Pep's model?

And lastly, in Very Fluid shape is the duty more important or the role when creating lateral movement? I'm thinking duty more so than role, am I correct?

i've experimeted in the formation creator and the most similar* is:

                                  CF-S                                                                                                                               CF-A

IF-A                                                       IF-A                                                                  IF-S                                                           IF-S

                CM-A       CM-D     CM-S                                                       OR                                       CM-A     CM-D       CM-S

 

FB-S              CD-D           CD-D          WB-S                                                                 FB-S              CD-D                 CD-D            FB-A   

 

                                SK-S                                                                                                                                   SK-S

 

 

*I say the most similar because for me is just the same looking at the image of Rashidi's formation but i'havent got the same skin as him and dont know if we have the same resolution as i play in a laptop. But as he says he has and Attacking duty in all the stratas and 3 of them in the whole tactic (must have then a FB-A) maybe is just as you pointed being IF-S and CF-A.

Edited by Omaxo

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A think that is with IFa left  and Wing a right  with FBs and Fba CMa CMd CMs

Edited by BojanVu

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13 hours ago, James9 said:

In your 4312formation what PI do you give to your 3 central midfielders. I think you mention in post 4 that players who are not expected to create would be given shorter passing and play less risky passes. Would this apply to your central midfielders in your system. 

I am assuming that you are play with a high block in your 4312 meaning the front 3 are all pressing 

He playing Control - structured  with  2x CMs and CMd butt sometimes CMd put on DLPd 

AMC a + DLFs + CFs  FB s +FBa + 2c CDd

PI instuction none have but you can looking all of that in youtube chanel

Edited by BojanVu

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Great so what are the team intructions and player roles. 

I play 4-3-3 wide very fluid attacking with d-line at normal

 

On 05/12/2016 at 18:09, Johnleegriffin said:

this is what I have come with, based on Ö-zil to the Arsenal! and what i believe is Klopp's tactic for Liverpool

this is a very fluid, attacking tactic.

The wide forwards have player instructions to get further forward when the team have the ball, my reason for them to be on support is because i want them both to track back to help out in midfield but still get forward when the attack is on.

Both CM/S also get further forward making the attack into a front 5.

Switching to a defensive mentality during a game when they have all the possession works really well to get them on the counter with out changing any other team instructions.

I have changed the f9 into a CF/A so now i have 4 support and 3 attacking players.

when up against park the bus teams i select shorter passing and much higher tempo.

 

 

On 05/12/2016 at 18:09, Johnleegriffin said:

Untitled.png

Untitled1.png

Screen Shot 2016-12-05 at 17.42.11.png

 

Edited by Johnleegriffin
update

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im sorry im still laughing at the discussion between fmjeros and Rashidi. 

you can take a horse to water...

people are just obsessed with other people defeating the game, its not about that its about trying to get your team to play the way you want it to. and if 70% possession and 30 shots happens when on defensive but SI are incorrectly labeling or whether it just works is irrelevant. who cares about if you chose "attacking, overload or defensive" its what happens with your team on the pitch that matters.

great thread though ignoring that bit of stupidity. really good to see people trying new things

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Rashidi tends not to show the roles/TI's/PI's as he wants people to learn it for themselves instead of being spoonfed it.

I think that is why he has chosen to not show them on the tactic screen.

Love the idea though so if he is going to show how it is done I look forward to it.

Great work.

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I really wish he would show the roles and instructions, as it would help learning it easier. He has said the in-game descriptions of the roles are misleading  so I think explaining his role and duties for the counter press would be more beneficial to people.

 

Looking forward to see how this counter press gets on!

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Turns out it is very simple actually to find out. The Wolves Experiment on Football Manager 2017

Counter/Very Fluid

TI's - Shorter Passing, Play Out of Defence, Work Ball into Box. Whipped Crosses. Push Higher Up, Use Offside Trap, Higher Tempo, Prevent Short GK Distribution.

Roles:

                                  DLF-A

IF-S                                                           IF-S

                    CM-A     CM-D       CM-S

 

FB-S              CD-D                 CD-D            FB-A   

 

                                    SK-S      

 

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Why do you limit yourself talking about the mentality with the defensive one, why don't you ever talk about the contain mentality? Isn't it the less risky one? Also how do you think OI can influence the pressing, like pressing other teams fullbacks and making them go wide, like Klopp's teams do, do you think that's important in FM and gegenpressing in particular? Sorry if you answered this questions already.

Edited by drigaco

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10 minutes ago, drigaco said:

Why do you limit yourself talking about the mentality with the defensive one, why don't you ever talk about the contain mentality? Isn't it the less risky one?

Erm no it isn't ..

Anyway I wanted to try something out, remember I am talking about the best way to reproduce counter pressing while still having high possession and maintain the organisational structure to give good support. The whole goal was to create football games that produced a high number of chances. Now I have raised mentality gone all the way up to Attacking, when I wanted to take risks. The possession numbers would never be as close to they were on defensive. There's nothing to stop anyone from playing on other mentalities, but they raise the amount of risk as they go up. Players may not do as they expect, passes may suddenly go long. I wanted them to do everything I wanted them to do.

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40 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Erm no it isn't ..

Anyway I wanted to try something out, remember I am talking about the best way to reproduce counter pressing while still having high possession and maintain the organisational structure to give good support. The whole goal was to create football games that produced a high number of chances. Now I have raised mentality gone all the way up to Attacking, when I wanted to take risks. The possession numbers would never be as close to they were on defensive. There's nothing to stop anyone from playing on other mentalities, but they raise the amount of risk as they go up. Players may not do as they expect, passes may suddenly go long. I wanted them to do everything I wanted them to do.

Yeah I got that idea from your videos, maybe I didn't  explain myself in my question, what I want to know is why do you stop at the defensive mentality, why don't go all the way to contain? Is there any specific reason?

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Oh...if I can on defensive and still play attacking football, its fun to watch the other team suffer. You can actually watch an entire game and not be bored, cos you wouldn't know where the goal was going to come from. I never play on contain, its too low. It's like pure defensive, that is tony pullis football area.

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10 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Oh...if I can on defensive and still play attacking football, its fun to watch the other team suffer. You can actually watch an entire game and not be bored, cos you wouldn't know where the goal was going to come from. I never play on contain, its too low. It's like pure defensive, that is tony pullis football area.

Oh okay I got it, less risks doesn't mean don't risk at all :) . What about the OI's, I asked sooner. Do you think they're fundamental for a gegenpress or even in FM in general?

Edited by drigaco

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OI are situational I tend to use them in big games when I think I don't have a chance, and I want to try everything to win

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Im using OI on the full back positions, DR and DL, WBR and WBL and MR and ML

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Hello Rashidi, big fan of your work. I've been into LLM this year and this was the chance to really get into tactics and see what I was doing wrongly the past years. (I play since 2006)

I have a couple of questions if you don't mind. My approach in the LLM save is that we will win or draw if we make less mistakes than our opponent. I want to achieve this by keeping the ball patiently and find an opening because Positioning and Concentration is bad in the Lower Leagues.

I mistakely thought that Control was the way to go, I wasn't aware of the risk/reward that goes with each mentallity. I've been reading your threads plus "Lines and Diamonds" and I decided to play with Defensive mentality, Keep Possession and Fairly Wide Width because I'm using a pair of Wingers and I wanted to stretch the play. If I got your ideas right, I need to have 1-3 players with Attacking mentalities or Creative P.Is in order for them to be the ones to create, to penetrate or to create spaces for their teammates.

Is this correct? Thanks for your amazing work throught the years and your time to respond to posts with stupid questions like mine! :)

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5 hours ago, Anaconda Vice said:

Turns out it is very simple actually to find out. The Wolves Experiment on Football Manager 2017

Counter/Very Fluid

TI's - Shorter Passing, Play Out of Defence, Work Ball into Box. Whipped Crosses. Push Higher Up, Use Offside Trap, Higher Tempo, Prevent Short GK Distribution.

Roles:

                                  DLF-A

IF-S                                                           IF-S

                    CM-A     CM-D       CM-S

 

FB-S              CD-D                 CD-D            FB-A   

 

                                    SK-S      

 

 

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Rashidi, thank you so much for all the content you produce. I have learned so much from your videos and guides - before you did your experiment with Wolves, I've been tinkering around with a 4-1-4-1 at very fluid, wanting to produce quick, attacking football with a hell of closing down. Never thought about going defensive, didnt cross my mind. On the attacking mentality I saw players rushing the play too much, like in panic. When going on defensive mentality, we look way more comfortable, passing it around patiently, and then, like a lightning strikes, we explode, carve through the defense with immense speed and team work. And the front guys closing down is so enjoyable to watch. And most importantly; we wear our opponents down through the thing I cherish most; hard, hard, hard work. 

With a less risky mentality I actually achieved the attacking football I wanted. Thanks, man. 

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<slow clap>

Kudos, Rashidi. I've read your work before but after meaning to watch some of the videos for the longest time, finally managed to. Great work. Re-reading this and your other threads with some new thoughts. I've been using a 4-1-4-1 DM Highly Fluid high press system on Standard (based on Ozil's posts). I'm now rather eager to take it to counter (which I've used only occasionally) or even defensive. Thank again and keep up the great work. I will be reading and re-reading

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On 3/12/2016 at 14:52, Rashidi said:

The Wolves Experiment - Crossover - The Holiday Mode Test

Attributes (Teamwork, Work-rate)

 

Players need these attributes otherwise, they don't have the quality needed to have positional fluidity. By positional fluidity I am only explicitly expecting them to support transitions. They need to work as a unit.

Fluidity 
We need to play on Very Fluid mentality, to allow for more players to participte in transitions

Roles

Attack roles increased since we will be playing Very Fluid, I need a bit more movement to generate chances.  3 Attack Roles, 4 Support Roles. Each strata placed with one attack role to allow dynamic movement. This is to ensure that even with very fluid, we get more movement vertically across the pitch. I require this for some positional flexibility. Right roles are vital, we need pivots in every area we want our attacking thrusts to come from. For example if I plan to drive through the middle and come in late from midfield there must be an Attack Duty in midfield and a Support/Defend duty in attack to encourage vertical movement.

I'm a bit surprised that you mention lack of movement in 'Very fluid' . Isn't movement in this structure generated almost by itself? Also, isn't it a (big) risk to have attacking runners from defense in very fluid? I have always chosen attack duties only on the top in very fluid in an attempt to stretch the compact shape a bit. Should i reconsider?

Also, conversely, in one of your videos i watched, you had a big win playing a 4231 structured with the 3 attackers upfront. Wouldn't this push them very far away from the rest of the team and have them rely on themselves?

Edited by difran8

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Rashidi I have watched your video on Counter Pressing and I am trying to figure out how I can achieve this with a 4231 wide formation. 

Do you think it is possible to achieve with a 4231 wide formation. 

I have some good wins so far and other times have been very hard. 

This what I am doing at the moment

Counter/Very Fluid

Push Higher Up

Play out of Defence

Work Ball Into Box

Whipped Crosses

Use Offside Trap (because I am playing with a higher line)

Both of my Inside forwards have been told to  close down much more. 

I am not sure if I want to close down the grid around the AMC and CF. I did not see you mention this in video so I thought this grid does not play a part in Counter Pressing. Would that be correct.

Also the grid in the CM STRATA causes me a bit of confusion because in a 4231wide the CM are important to shield the defence so if these two players are told to close down more then this will lead to others problems.

The DLP D comes with Close Down Less hard coded in the player instructions. The CM D comes with Close Down More. I do not want my creater in deep midfield because I have one of the best 10 in the game.

So if I play with a CM D he is going to close down more because that is what is in the player instructions. If I gave this player instructions to close down less will this override the player instructions that comes with the role and follow my instructions. 

 

I have given both players less risky passes and shorter passing and dribble less instructions also. 

In my set up I am also trying encourage movement so I gone with having 1 player with Attack in front 4 and I player on Attack in the defence which will the full back. 

I am still working on PIs 

my backline all have been told to play less risky passes and the full backs have been told to dribble less. Because I playing with a Counter Mentality I have told my CD to pass it shorter.  I find that when I play Counter Mentality the defence line tends to go for more direct passing. 

Coukd just ask if you found yourself a goal down playing with Counter Pressing  with Torino what did you do.

This I think is where I am tactically weak I do not know how to change things well as yet. I get it right at times with my changes but other times it goes wrong. 

If you have any advice that would be great

Edited by James9

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2 hours ago, difran8 said:

I'm a bit surprised that you mention lack of movement in 'Very fluid' . Isn't movement in this structure generated almost by itself? Also, isn't it a (big) risk to have attacking runners from defense in very fluid? I have always chosen attack duties only on the top in very fluid in an attempt to stretch the compact shape a bit. Should i reconsider?

Also, conversely, in one of your videos i watched, you had a big win playing a 4231 structured with the 3 attackers upfront. Wouldn't this push them very far away from the rest of the team and have them rely on themselves?

Very fluid systems tend to produce congested areas for me in the final third, especially when I am playing a narrow 4312, in certain systems like the 4231 and the 451 you don't really notice that as much. When I played the 451 with Wolves I had an attacking duty with two support duties and I also flipped it to create one with 2 attacking duties and 1 support one. 

Structured systems have many ways of playing in my 4231, I was relying on those attack duties to break past teams defensive lines, so yeah I would depend on their individual skills. In fact, for structured systems I tend to rely more on players individual abilities.

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50 minutes ago, James9 said:

Rashidi I have watched your video on Counter Pressing and I am trying to figure out how I can achieve this with a 4231 wide formation. 

Do you think it is possible to achieve with a 4231 wide formation. 

I have some good wins so far and other times have been very hard. 

This what I am doing at the moment

Counter/Very Fluid

Push Higher Up

Play out of Defence

Work Ball Into Box

Whipped Crosses

Use Offside Trap (because I am playing with a higher line)

I have my front 4 close down much more and tighter marking

I want to close down the outer grid so the players in the AMR/AML position and also the grid around the AMC and CF.

I do not want my two central midfielders closing down because I think they will just get dragged out of position so the CMD and CMS will be instructed to close down less, less risky passes and shorter passing.

In my set up I am also trying encourage movement so I gone with having 1 player with Attack in front 4 and I player on Attack in the defence which will the full back. 

I am still working on PIs 

my backline all have been told to play less risky passes and the full backs have been told to dribble less. Because I playing with a Counter Mentality I have told my CD to pass it shorter. 

Coukd just ask if you found yourself a goal down playing with Counter Pressing  with Torino what did you do.

This I think is where I am tactically weak I do not know how to change things well as yet. I get it right at times with my changes but other times it goes wrong. 

If you have any advice that would be great

Sounds exactly like how I would play :-) and you raise an interesting point. Do I always stay on defensive or counter. No I don't. There have been games where sitting on that mentality was just too risk averse. I'd go 60 minutes desperately watching my side shooting and failing to create great chances. So in those kind of matches I usually play the game like it was a tactical battle. I'd start the match on counter...and a high line. This would ensure I was pressing really hard but with the option of cover. Naturally I'd need the right players to pull that off, because it's still risky. You are compact and your flanks will always be open. So if your fullbacks and side midfielders don''t have the right mentals you will be vulnerable.

I'd start a match on defensive, high, and observe how we played.  If we went a goal down, I'd first consider what kind of goal it was. If it was a set piece, sometimes I get emo, and I just switch up to Attacking/very fluid and drop the Dline to normal. I'd give that like 10 minutes. During that time I would go comprehensive to make sure that I wasn't too exposed. If we score I drop to standard/pushed up. If we don't score I drop to control/normal, I'd rather not stay on attacking for too long, if I spot that they are getting a lot of chances as well. The goal is to find some kind of "mean" where you can increase pressure and risk without compromising your backline. The key here is to spot how much risk can you take without your backline being pulled out of shape.

When you play like that I would suggest you start looking at the zones where you are the weakest. See how you fare there. Second thing you want to do is to ensure that your midfield screen is doing all the work. If they aren't they need to be improved. That's usually the best 2 options.

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4 hours ago, Gegenklaus said:

Rashidi, thank you so much for all the content you produce. I have learned so much from your videos and guides - before you did your experiment with Wolves, I've been tinkering around with a 4-1-4-1 at very fluid, wanting to produce quick, attacking football with a hell of closing down. Never thought about going defensive, didnt cross my mind. On the attacking mentality I saw players rushing the play too much, like in panic. When going on defensive mentality, we look way more comfortable, passing it around patiently, and then, like a lightning strikes, we explode, carve through the defense with immense speed and team work. And the front guys closing down is so enjoyable to watch. And most importantly; we wear our opponents down through the thing I cherish most; hard, hard, hard work. 

With a less risky mentality I actually achieved the attacking football I wanted. Thanks, man. 

It's for people like you, I did this thread and those experiments, those willing to see things in a different light. Thank you for restoring my faith in the community. You have no idea how your comments have provided some encouragement for me to continue. There have been days I have been wracked with doubt as to whether this was all worth it, your comment is very much appreciated.

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Rashidi, you mention in your video the difference between Klopp & Guardiola & how it's easier to set up a team to play more like Klopp than Guardiola. Why is this & what are the differences in terms of FM? Is it to do with what the team does when they win the ball or how they set up defensively? 

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I didn't say we could easily reproduce Guardiola or Klopp, I just said its easy to reproduce their pressing systems. Guardiola you need to play on defensive, but the positional flexibility is a lot tougher. Klopp you play on standard to control with the same pressing elements that are in Guardiola system. When you create both systems you will see that Klopp setup mimics to some extent the real life weaknesses of his system. And you will also see that Guardiola's is entirely reliant on having versatile players.

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It seems to me that pressing is much better executed and followed by the players when done through PIs rather than through TI. When using Global (TI) pressing instructions it looks to me like the players loose their shape much too easy. On the other hand when using PIs for pressing it looks like it's more specific and well executed. So I have concluded that it's best to leave closing down on sometimes as Team Instruction and then just go to PIs of different levels of closing down for each individual. I don't know if this is influenced only by the use of Very Fluid shape and if it's the same for other shapes. Rashidi for sure can say more about it.

I just want to ask what is your take on using Tight Marking, either as TI or PI and even OI? How does it help pressing? Is there a difference between using it as TI, PI or OI?

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I don't know why but the positioning in a flat three midfield compared to one with a DMC is much better and this helps very much in pressing traps. Especially the functioning of the 2 outer midfielders is great and they seem to perform a lot better than in a 1-2 midfield triangle. Certainly the pressing as yonko mentioned is much better when is executed through Pis, and this is one thing SI must address in future versions of the game. When i use the global pressing as a TI it seems that the other team has at least 2 pirlos in midfield and always they make the ball over the top for the forward to score. 

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19 minutes ago, fmjeros said:

I don't know why but the positioning in a flat three midfield compared to one with a DMC is much better and this helps very much in pressing traps. Especially the functioning of the 2 outer midfielders is great and they seem to perform a lot better than in a 1-2 midfield triangle. Certainly the pressing as yonko mentioned is much better when is executed through Pis, and this is one thing SI must address in future versions of the game. When i use the global pressing as a TI it seems that the other team has at least 2 pirlos in midfield and always they make the ball over the top for the forward to score. 

We should be able to achieve different things in PIs than TIs, I dread to think how the general public would react if they faced an AI manager who played like that.

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Rashidi I just looked at your video again and you have the CMD in close down more which I believe comes with the role selection. Do you change this to close down less because you did mention that the CMD is not the player to be closing down in that area. 

Also my question about the Counter Pressing in 4231 wide if it is possible to achieve this. I am struggling to understand what grids I need to close down so far I have gone for the grid on the AMR/AML and the grid for the AMC and CF. I have left the CM grid alone to avoid being dragged out of shape.

I am just trying and experimenting on my game to see what works really but I am finding It really challenging with the 4231 wide 

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Brilliant thread....I am a CM FM player since day 1 and I am still learning stuff thanks to threads like this. My SD Eibar team will play a little different next season thanks to this thread. Keep up the good work and thanks for the early morning read.

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9 hours ago, Rashidi said:

It's for people like you, I did this thread and those experiments, those willing to see things in a different light. Thank you for restoring my faith in the community. You have no idea how your comments have provided some encouragement for me to continue. There have been days I have been wracked with doubt as to whether this was all worth it, your comment is very much appreciated.

Keep it coming!

I don't commend much, neither here or on your site but I have been a long time reader of your stuff. I would really mis your content because it gives me some clue every time I start with a new FM (I don't get every version I skip one or two years)

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12 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I didn't say we could easily reproduce Guardiola or Klopp, I just said its easy to reproduce their pressing systems. Guardiola you need to play on defensive, but the positional flexibility is a lot tougher. Klopp you play on standard to control with the same pressing elements that are in Guardiola system. When you create both systems you will see that Klopp setup mimics to some extent the real life weaknesses of his system. And you will also see that Guardiola's is entirely reliant on having versatile players.

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted what you said. When you talk about positional flexibility, what exactly do you mean? 

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12 hours ago, James9 said:

Rashidi I just looked at your video again and you have the CMD in close down more which I believe comes with the role selection. Do you change this to close down less because you did mention that the CMD is not the player to be closing down in that area. 

Also my question about the Counter Pressing in 4231 wide if it is possible to achieve this. I am struggling to understand what grids I need to close down so far I have gone for the grid on the AMR/AML and the grid for the AMC and CF. I have left the CM grid alone to avoid being dragged out of shape.

I am just trying and experimenting on my game to see what works really but I am finding It really challenging with the 4231 wide 

Not that I'm Rashidi or to pretend to know as much as him. But I think you are on the right track with your pressing settings. I believe you can afford to have your AMC not pressing much (leave it on default) if the opposition doesn't use a DMC, that way he can be fresh and focused on the attacking phase when you do have the ball or win the ball back (defense to attack transition). 

But be careful if the opposition starts bypassing your front press and finds spaces behind, especially out wide. I would have the FBs close down more in that case. In fact I would do that anyway.

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17 hours ago, James9 said:

Rashidi I just looked at your video again and you have the CMD in close down more which I believe comes with the role selection. Do you change this to close down less because you did mention that the CMD is not the player to be closing down in that area. 

Also my question about the Counter Pressing in 4231 wide if it is possible to achieve this. I am struggling to understand what grids I need to close down so far I have gone for the grid on the AMR/AML and the grid for the AMC and CF. I have left the CM grid alone to avoid being dragged out of shape.

I am just trying and experimenting on my game to see what works really but I am finding It really challenging with the 4231 wide 

No I don't do close down much less. I leave it on default for the CM(D) position and avoid roles like BWM there.

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9 hours ago, retrodude09 said:

Sorry, I must have misinterpreted what you said. When you talk about positional flexibility, what exactly do you mean? 

No worries, Guardiola expects his players to be able to perform multiple roles, so if a winger drops into a central midfield's to defend an area because the CM is somewhere else, then the winger is expected to fulfil the roles of that position. That requires a certain positional flexibility

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Rashidi,

I'm mostly a lurker here but I wanted to post and thank you for changing the way I see the game.

I had taken a long break from FM (14 was the last version I played) and I was finding this version frustrating and challenging.  My own tactics (based upon my own 'understanding' of football) were falling apart, mainly due to conceding far too many goals. My frustration led to giving up trying to create anything of my own and I turned to tactics others had made. Although some are relatively successful, I never felt satisfied as I didn't feel in control of how we played and therefore didn't feel in a strong position to know how to alter the outcome of matches using those tactics - especially as they are invariably overflowing with TIs/PIs.

After following your recent postings I realised that my misunderstanding of mentality was rendering everything else I was trying to create in my own tactics more difficult. I now understand the folly of taking SI's descriptions of the various mentalities as literal and correct, and that has completely changed my game experience. As you have already mentioned, this really needs addressing by SI as I think it is a core element contributing to the exasperation of many who post in the forums admitting nothing seems to be working for them. It's probably no coincidence that most of those who struggle are playing with control or attacking mentalities.

For anyone wondering if what Rashidi has mentioned works, I am unbeaten since changing my approach and my defence is rock solid (despite it being a fairly standard back 4 set-up that had previously been leaking goals left, right and centre). My most recent match was as heavy underdogs away to a strong side.  I played defensive mentality with a pushed up back line and strategically targetted certain areas of the pitch for heavy closing down. The opposition had 1 shot on goal the whole match (it was an off-target long shot!) whereas I had 19 (with 10 on target). I had 68% possession and completely bossed the match from start to finish. Yes, it was defensive mentality but it was certainly not a defensive performance.

Again Rashidi, thank you for continuing to share your ideas and for trying to help others find the game more enjoyable and rewarding.

Edit - forgot to add, I also prioritised players who are strongest in work rate & teamwork instead of picking my 'best' players and I feel that is having a positive impact too - so much so that I'll likely be offloading the ones who fall short in this area.

 

Edited by happyhoopy
added text

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7 hours ago, Rashidi said:

No I don't do close down much less. I leave it on default for the CM(D) position and avoid roles like BWM there.

Thanks Rashidi just a quick question do you have your full backs press also. 

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@Rashidi What is the minimum value of Team Work and Work Rate you look for in a player for this pressing system?

Edited by Gee_Simpson

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On December 7, 2016 at 19:07, yonko said:

I just want to ask what is your take on using Tight Marking, either as TI or PI and even OI? How does it help pressing? Is there a difference between using it as TI, PI or OI?

Rashidi, could you please reply regarding Tight Marking? Thanks.

In theory, it should help pressing, no? But is there a difference between using it as TI vs PI, as it does with the Closing Down instructions? And how does it differentiate further with using it as OI?

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Been trying to get this system to work (2026/27 season, 2nd Bundesliga 1FC Nurnberg) and it seems to work to a certain degree. In most matches i get most possession, most shots and most on target and most clear cut chances. Still not winning enough tho. After 19 games i'm only 5W-6D-8L. Most of my problems come from the fact that i don't really get the chance to press high up. When we lose the ball in their 3rd they just punt it forward and you get those 50/50 balls. When the team then settles i do see them press hard, but not in the way i want. It seems like most of the time i get two of my midfielders pressing the same opposite player and thus always leaving one man open. What i would like to see is one men pressing and two stepping into the passing lanes. Quite like you describe how the tactic should work. There isn't really a PI for this so does that all come down to poor OTB?

I Have my midfielders set up als CM-s - AP-AT - CM-S with only the AP Close Down More. Should i perhaps make a TI with Close Down Less so that only players with the Close Down PI do the closing down?

 

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Rashidi, can I ask what you consider the best attributes to form an effective midfield screen. I have been going with Anticipation, Positioning & Tackling.

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3 hours ago, tony wright said:

Rashidi, can I ask what you consider the best attributes to form an effective midfield screen. I have been going with Anticipation, Positioning & Tackling.

Are you asking for someone like Makelele used to be? I would say anticipation, concentration, decisions, positioning, marking, tackling.

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20 hours ago, James9 said:

Thanks Rashidi just a quick question do you have your full backs press also. 

No I don't

8 hours ago, PhydomiR said:

Been trying to get this system to work (2026/27 season, 2nd Bundesliga 1FC Nurnberg) and it seems to work to a certain degree. In most matches i get most possession, most shots and most on target and most clear cut chances. Still not winning enough tho. After 19 games i'm only 5W-6D-8L. Most of my problems come from the fact that i don't really get the chance to press high up. When we lose the ball in their 3rd they just punt it forward and you get those 50/50 balls. When the team then settles i do see them press hard, but not in the way i want. It seems like most of the time i get two of my midfielders pressing the same opposite player and thus always leaving one man open. What i would like to see is one men pressing and two stepping into the passing lanes. Quite like you describe how the tactic should work. There isn't really a PI for this so does that all come down to poor OTB?

I Have my midfielders set up als CM-s - AP-AT - CM-S with only the AP Close Down More. Should i perhaps make a TI with Close Down Less so that only players with the Close Down PI do the closing down?

You won't see perfect pressing every game for every incident. That's just the reality. I do expect to see my players press when I lose the ball in the opponents half. When that fails to happen it could be a function of 1 of 2 things: Player has poor attributes for the role, or my line isn't high enough. Sometimes what I end up doing is pushing up mentality so their starting points are higher. If you watch any of my videos, you hardly ever see me sit on defensive for 90 minutes. Most teams are better than me, so sometimes I take the risk of playing with a higher mentality, so I go to counter or standard. That way we end up doing things higher up the pitch. The downside is your backline, so you gotta keep your eyes out. 

I don't know what system you are playing, it could work, but with The Central AP closing down a lot and moving around as an AP you will see gaps opening. I don't like not winning the second ball, and my CM in the middle generally has the highest interceptions. You need to track your interceptions to see whether you are improving or not. Its a multifaceted approach.

4 hours ago, tony wright said:

Rashidi, can I ask what you consider the best attributes to form an effective midfield screen. I have been going with Anticipation, Positioning & Tackling.

Those are decent attributes, I would add, work rate, concentration as well. And that's at the very basic level. I also look at Stamina. Its an interesting question, because you find 2 kinds of player, the Slow and Aware or the Fast and Strong. So you either get a player with great positional awareness of you get one who is fast and strong into the challenge.

 

12 hours ago, yonko said:

Rashidi, could you please reply regarding Tight Marking? Thanks.

In theory, it should help pressing, no? But is there a difference between using it as TI vs PI, as it does with the Closing Down instructions? And how does it differentiate further with using it as OI?

Tight Marking, isn't something I am inclined to do automatically, I may consider it for matches which are super tough. If you have watched any of my videos, you will notice I use them sporadically.  It will help if your player can actually do the job. However if the one you are marking has great balance and acceleration, he can turn the marker.

 

12 hours ago, Gee_Simpson said:

@Rashidi What is the minimum value of Team Work and Work Rate you look for in a player for this pressing system?

For players in the medium block and high block areas I would go for nothing less than 12. If you look at my side the best performing player has 15.

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