Wales at Euro 2016 (Highly Structured)

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

Welcome to my first thread of Football Manager 2017. If you've been reading along so far you'll know that I've enjoyed re-creating the tactical styles of some of my favourite teams using the Football Manager tactics creator.

If you've yet to read previous threads, I recommend that you start there in order to understand the background of the concepts I am talking about:

1. Johan Cruyff's 3-4-3 Diamond
2. Arrigo Sacchi's 4-4-2
3. Arsene Wenger's Invincibles
4. Brazil's Jogo Bonito style

Now, in a list containing Cruyff's Dream Team, Sacchi's Milan, Wenger's Invincibles and Brazilian Jogo Bonito - whilst a fantastic achievement - Wales' team of Euro 2016 isn't necessarily the next team to roll off the tongue - so, why Wales?

Previous threads have inspired some great discussions and choosing Wales is a response to two common pieces of feedback:

1. So far I've always chosen and developed world-class squads and regularly been asked how I'd play with lower quality teams.
2. I've also played varying styles of attacking, attractive football and yet to talk about anything on the other end of the spectrum.

The most common queries have been about recreating Simeone's Atletico, Ranieri's Leicester and - lately - Conte's Chelsea. I think that the points covered in this thread should offer insight for anyone looking to re-create those styles.

Resources on Wales at Euro 2016

• Spielverlagerung - Wales v Northern Ireland
• Spielverlagerung - Wales v Portugal
• Zonal Marking - Wales v Belgium
• YouTube: Wales v Belgium (Highlights)
• Zonal Marking - Portugal v Wales
• Outside of the Boot - Wales v Northern Ireland
• Underdog status (stats courtesy of ESPN):
  • Only 11 of the 23 players in the Wales squad played predominantly in the Premier League.
  • Of the other 12, eight played in the Championship, one in League One, two in Scotland plus Simon Church on loan in both the Championship and the Scottish Premiership.
  • Wales had only Swansea's Ashley Williams and Arsenal's Aaron Ramsey who made more than 30 Premier League appearances.

Theory

As usual, the formation Wales used is highly subjective - different people will see it differently - could be described as a 3-5-1-1, 5-3-1-1 or 3-4-2-1.

Using the excellent analysis from Spielverlagerung, this is the shape we're trying to create:

Here is a summary of some of the interesting traits I will be looking to implement in my own team:

• Off the ball:
  • Compact 5-3-1-1 shape in defence.
  • Low / Medium defensive block - medium defensive line, low pressing to retain shape.
              I like the Spielverlagerung description - "a fairly passive medium-block".
• On the ball:
  • 3-4-2-1 shape in attack.
  • Wingbacks providing width.
  • Bale playing a free-role, primarily off the shoulder of the striker but also threatening wide.
  • Ramsey as a more advanced playmaker and Allen as a deep playmaker.
• Transitions:
  • Fast transition in counter-attack aiming to use Bale's pace and dribbling in space behind, or running at the defence.
  • More controlled build up play through playmakers, Joe Allen and Aaron Ramsey with wingbacks providing width and Bale making runs.
     

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In Football Manager 2017

Before I take about tactics, let's take a look at the squad. As you can see, 2-years on and we're playing a similar squad to the Class of 2016.

Notable changes:

• Cardiff City are now in the Premiership, although both Cardiff and Swansea are fighting relegation.
• Injury to Taylor, replaced by Declan John.
• Ashley Richards has now overtaken Gunter as my right back, currently playing Premiership football at Cardiff.
• Captain, Ashley Williams is 33 and slowly deteriorating but still first team at Everton. Likely to be his last international tournament.
   

Key

• Dashed yellow lines indicate divisions, grouping relevant attributes together to allow for easier analysis:
  1. Work rate, determination, fitness.
  2. Technical ability.
  3. Defensive ability.
  4. Attacking ability.
• Green boxes indicate strengths.
• Thick green boxes indicate major strengths.
• Red boxes indicate weaknesses.

In previous threads, at this stage I am talking about world class, complete players. In this case, Wales are more of an underdog so it's a case of playing to their strengths and mitigating their weaknesses.

Strengths

• Work rate, determination and fitness reasonably high across the squad.
• Ramsey, Allen and Ledley are all reasonably 'complete' midfielders.
• Strong defensive unit and an intelligent back 3.

Weaknesses

• Poor ball-playing ability in defence.
• Declan John is potentially a defensive weak spot (forced change due to injury to Taylor).

Major Strengths

• Outstanding attacking attacking talent of Gareth Bale.
• Aaron Ramsey is an excellent playmaker.

Mentality, Team Shape and Team Instructions aka Playing Style

Continuing the theme of previous discussions - I see Mentality, Team Shape and Team Instructions as the backbone of my tactics yet also one of the most commonly overlooked aspects of the game, particularly team shape.

In my opinion - Mentality is the most significant single decision you'll make inside the Tactics Creator. Quite simply - no other single setting has anywhere near as much influence. As you are probably aware by now, your Mentality determines:

• Base individual mentality.
• Defensive line.
• Closing down.
• Width.
• Tempo.
• Time wasting.
• To a smaller extent - passing.

As with most things in FM, nothing is set in stone. Defensive line, closing down, width, time wasting and passing are all easily modified by Team Instructions however I am increasingly finding that selecting the appropriate Mentality a much simpler solution than applying extensive Team Instructions.

In my summary of the traits Wales played at Euro 2016 I identified two which I can implement using the mentality:

1. Low/Medium Defensive Block - medium defensive line, low pressing to retain shape.
2. Mixed transition play:
   • Quick counters exploiting Bales pace and attacking talent.
   • Controlled build up through Allen & Ramsey.

Mentality: Counter

Tactics Creator description:

Team Instructions base settings in the Tactics Creator:

Overview of Settings:

• Medium defensive line.
• Low closing down.
• Pretty narrow width.
• Lower medium tempo.
• Medium passing.

The counter mechanism means that when the counter-attack is on - i.e we turnover possession and the opposition has over committed forward - we play direct, fast and attacking football to take advantage of the situation.

Summary:

• The medium defensive Line and lower closing down gives me the low / medium block or, as per Spielverlagerung, the "passive medium block".
• Lower medium tempo and reasonably conservative mentality gives me the platform to combine with playmaker roles to create the controlled build-up through Allen & Ramsey.
• The counter attacking mechanism gives me the quick counter attacking play, when the opposition overcommit.

Team Shape works hand-in-hand with Mentality and influences two key factors:

1. Determines the distribution of individual players mentality across your team, based on your overall team mentality.
2. Creative freedom across the team.

Essentially, Team Shape determines how far individual mentalities deviate from the base mentality set by your overall Mentality.
 

On 17 November 2015 at 16:48, THOG said:

The mentality of the player still matters, so on the same setting, you should see a difference between a Structured set-up with an attack duty up top and a Structured set-up with a support duty up top. Right now, team shape works like this:

Very Fluid = Most Compact

Fluid = Compact

Flexible = Default

Structured = More Depth

Highly Structured = Much More Depth

However, within that, you also have the effect of duties so the ST's role/duty in particular will have a big influence on how stretched you become in build-up play. So, for example, an F9 is still going to be an F9 on Highly Structured whilst a Poacher will still tend to hang on the last defender on Very Fluid.

The underlying design philosophy seems to be that Role/Duty are primary, at least in terms of build-up play, with everything else being a smaller modification.

My Interpretation

This could easily be an entire thread. The above definition is excellent, but the key - for me - is to tweak the definition above so you're considering how far individual player's mentality will deviate from your base mentality rather than "compactness / depth".

     Very Fluid = Very low deviation 
     Fluid = Low deviation
     Flexible = Standard
     Structured = More deviation
     Highly Structured = Much more deviation

There are a few reasons I prefer considering deviation to compactness / depth: 

• Compactness is a positive term - who doesn't want their team to be compact?
• Team Shape is not the only way to achieve compactness.

An example of a common confusion would be wanting to play a compact, defensive system. Logically, you could select a combination of Defensive mentality for the low-block and mentality, then Very Fluid for the compactness. Given that Very Fluid organises your team as one unit, this sets every player - including strikers and attacking midfielders - to a significantly lower mentality. Very Fluid also gives a higher creative freedom to every player. If you're playing a defensive system, you've probably got more limited players - do you really want to give them a "licence to thrill .... slowly". Not saying it could never work, but it's extreme to say the least.

In addition, and more of a personal bugbear, but how many very fluid defensive teams do you see in real life? Personally, I can't think of too many free-flowing defences! 

Methods of achieving Compactness

1. Team Shape - yes, it's very effective at achieving compactness. Just be aware it effects your entire team and their creative freedom.
2. Player Roles - here's a pretty extreme example but regardless of team shape, this is going to be pretty compact:
   
   
    
3. Formation - this 3-man defence with a 4-man shield in the DM strata will be pretty compact, regardless of team shape:
   
   

Putting this into application..

     Key Considerations for Wales' Team Shape:

• Already decided that I am playing a Counter mentality.
• My squad contains a number of players who are very limited technical ability, including first team and particularly defence.
• I do want compactness but I also want my star players - Bale & Ramsey - in attacking roles.

Team Shape: Highly Structured
 

Ignore the middle paragraph of the description. Not accurate. See THOGs description above.

Summary:

• We have a Counter mentality which sets my base mentality slightly lower than average.
• Combined with Highly Structured means my individual players mentality will have a high deviation from the base mentality - in other words, setting an individual to Defend, Support or Attack is going to have a greater influence.
• We will play precise and controlled football, with low creative freedom.

Team Instructions: None

Simple 

The mentality and team shape above combine with the formation and player roles coming next to give a balanced system that plays as I'd like it to. Team Instructions remain good options for game-to-game tweaks but not required as a key component of the system.

 

Formation, Player Roles / Duties and Player Instructions

Playing a Highly Structured team shape means we have additional considerations, in comparison to previous systems using Very Fluid or Fluid.

• The high deviation of individual mentality from the base mentality - counter - means that I need to use formation and duties to achieve compactness.
• Low creative freedom across the team means I need to use Playmaker roles to add some spark to the team.
• Highly Structured allows me to assign Gareth Bale an aggressive role to take advantage of his world-class ability.

Experimented with a 5-3-2 which also worked well however I found the 3-4-1-2 above more compact and the wing backs offered better width.

Player Instructions:

Goalkeeper (Defend): N/A
Central Defender (Defend): N/A
Central Defender (Defend): N/A
Central Defender (Defend): N/A
Wing Back (Support): N/A
Deep-Lying Playmaker (Support): N/A
Ball-Winning Midfielder (Defend): N/A
Wing Back (Support): N/A
Advanced Playmaker (Attack): Get Forward More
Shadow Striker (Attack): Roam From Position
Defensive Forward (Support): Move Into Channels

Gareth Bale

In previous threads, we have been talking about squads containing generally world-class, 'complete' players. We've talked about attacking using intelligence (Ajax & Milan), rapid pace (Arsenal) and flair (Brazil) all generally combined with movement and technical ability. This time around, Wales have a more limited squad with a world-class talisman - Gareth Bale.

Gareth Bale is an absolute beast - he's quick, strong, great on the ball, great finisher, great movement, dangerous from long range, set-pieces, good in the air and - crucially - versatile enough to play through the centre or both wings.

My 'plan A' is always that he plays through the centre, in a free-role off the shoulder of the striker with Ramsey providing attacking support in his Advanced Playmaker role from midfield.

The main risk of relying heavily on a world-class talisman is that the opposition mark him out of the game. I also notice that - particularly at international level - opposition defences regularly have a defensive weak spot which I can use Bale's versatility to exploit.

Bale can be lethal cutting inside onto his left-foot from the right-flank as an Inside Forward (Attack) with Ramsey moving left to attack the space.

Alternatively Bale can move left and play the Winger (Attack) he originally broke through as world-class at Spurs, targeting the opposition right back and stretching the defence for Ramsey to attack from deep.

Always roaming from position, although sadly never quite as much as I'd like.

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In-Game Analysis

Defensive Shape

When talking about Team Shape, I made some bold claims about compactness. As a reminder, I am playing the "least compact" team shape available - aka the team shape that distributes individual mentality with the highest deviation from your core mentality - and I am using a tight formation, and conservative player roles to create compactness.

The screenshots below are taken from my defence's greatest achievement, shutting out Argentina and the best player in the world - Mesut Ozil Lionel Messi.

Argentina are attacking down the left-flank.

• Wing backs have dropped deep to create a solid 5-man defence standing firm just ahead of the 18-yard box.
• Ramsey has also fallen back to join Allen and Ledley in a compact 3-man midfield triangle ahead of the defence.
• Bale and Vokes are also deeper, troubling the Argentinian holding midfielders.
• The measure at the bottom shows the compactness of my entire team.

Argentina now attack down the opposite flank.

• This time my left wing back has been drawn out wide to press the opposition.
• My centre backs have compensated by shifting left as not to leave any gap.
• The opposite wingback has tucked in as a right back, creating a solid back four - again - standing firm just ahead of the 18-yard box.
• Ramsey has once again combined with Allen and Ledley creating a compact 3-man shield ahead of the defence.
• Attackers aren't as deep this time, but not a major concern.
• This time the measure at the bottom shows the compactness between my defence and midfield.

Here's our average defensive positioning from the game.

A nice, compact 5-3-1-1 shape as we discussed at the start.

Heartbreak

Ultimately, this game ended in heartbreak for Wales. Despite Argentina's 62% we managed to all but nullify the attacking threat of Messi & Co. for 89 minutes, before Captain Ashley Williams was sent off for a two-footed challenge and conceding the winning penalty after having missed one ourselves just 10 minutes earlier.

 

Despite the disappointment, it was a fantastic tournament and the Welsh fans repeated their Euro 2016 performance with messages after every game about their delight from the results - even after the defeat.

 

Attacking Shape

One of the pleasant surprises of this experience has been the attacking shape. A highly structured, counter-attacking 5-3-2 variant hardly screams, "great football" but I really enjoyed the way we played. Particularly given that we were using largely inferior quality players to much of our opposition.

At the out-set I defined two distinct approaches Wales showed in possession:

• More controlled build up play through playmakers, Joe Allen and Aaron Ramsey with wingbacks providing width and Bale making runs.
• Fast transition in counter-attack aiming to use Bale's pace and dribbling in space behind, or running at the defence.

Highlights
 

How we got here..

Road to FIFA World Cup 2018...

Wales' World Cup qualifying campaign was an interesting challenge. With a reputation clearly enhanced by the success of Euro 2016, overcoming lower-ranked yet equally-matched opposition became difficult. We started in the 5-3-2 I mentioned briefly earlier. The 5-3-2 worked to an extent but was somewhat disjointed; the wing backs weren't providing enough width and we weren't compact enough with the opposition finding space between defence and midfield - the result being 3 draws in our first 4 games.

We moved to the 3-4-2-1 in order to offer more width and a compact block in-front of the defence - the result being 5 wins from the last 6 and an unbeaten qualification.

 

FIFA World Cup 2018 - Group D

Wales first World Cup appearance since 1958. The World Cup group stage continued where the qualification campaign had left off. Comfortable qualification with 2 wins and a draw.

Knock-Out Stages

The knock out stages were my highlight of Football Manager 2017, so far. We started by holding Holland to a 0-0 draw where we defended very well and created a few chances to win outright but in the end it was heroics from Hennessy - saving 3 penalties in the shoot-out - which sent us through. Spain was the performance of the tournament. You can see from the highlight reel that it could easily have been 3 or 4 against them. Argentina - as you've heard - solid for 89 minutes with heartbreak at the end. We then finished strongly with a comfortable 3-1 win over Norway courtesy of a Gareth Bale wonder-goal.

Speaking of Gareth Bale, his talisman role went rather well and earned him this little accolade.

 

2018 World Cup Review

That's quite enough from me. Hope you've enjoyed reading and hopefully there's some useful information you can take away to apply in your tactics. Lots of you have asked me about tactics that'd lean towards the structured end of the scale - Simeone, Ranieri, Conte, Mourinho etc - and a common misunderstanding is on 'compactness' so you should be able to use this.

Cheers, everyone 

 

[kevinstates]

Amazing work again. What do you mean by deviations in the team shape section. Is that reflected in the tactics creator? I did not notice any difference between support and attack duties with fluid/structured. Did you mean it is different strata to strata? I'm not sure I understand.

[EuanDewar]

Great write-up as always mate.

Compactness is something they really need to be clearer about in terms of what affects it, how to go about achieving it etc. There are also some facets of compactness real life-teams that aren't replicable through reasonable means within the game right now (such as elements of the strikers' positioning). 

[tyler16]

This thread couldn't be better. I'm going to return to it all the time.

That Bale 1v1 miss against Argentina... ohhhh no!

[nick1408]

Great write up.  A bit of curiosity - when you switch around Bale and Ramsey do you switch the players around behind them?

[Kuldaniss]

I was a very big fan of your Invincibles thread, but always wanted to see something more defensive/counter attacking from you. This is it ! Amazing thread, very nice analysis. The part where you explained why you opted for very structured and how it affects everything was an eye opener. Please keep making these kind of threads. 

Subscribed to you on youtube, will look forward to more content like this. 

[enigmatic]

Surprised you didn't experiment with Bale as a Trequartista. Granted, that means he doesn't use his half-decent defensive ability, but on the other hand "let him do his own thing and feed him the ball a lot" is pretty much exactly how I'd want to use him for Wales.

[MHovel]

I always wanted to create a tactic with highly structured shape, but I always found it very boring to watch, because the lack of opportunities my team had in front of goal, it might be something related to my tactics while my English back than wasn't really good so I might made some mistakes using some kind of mixed shouts which lead everything look badly in terms of team performance.

Since some real life tactics doesn't always can work, I have a tactical question about my new tactic that I want to create, but I will open a new thread for that.

I really enjoyed reading, thank you.

[PonjaConRulos]

Amazing article, I really liked how you achieved compactness with a highly structured shape. I've always been confused and I tried compactness only with team shape and not with the formation or roles. The video helps a lot to understand all the things you explained earlier. 

Thank you!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

9 hours ago, kevinstates said:

Amazing work again. What do you mean by deviations in the team shape section. Is that reflected in the tactics creator? I did not notice any difference between support and attack duties with fluid/structured. Did you mean it is different strata to strata? I'm not sure I understand.

By deviation I am referring to how far an individual player's mentality will differ from your team mentality - for example, if you're playing a counter mentality how far will your attacking midfielder's mentality deviate from that? In an attacking mentality, how far do your defenders deviate?

Using the range posted above, you can see that there will be low deviation in a Very Fluid system - using the examples above, my attacking midfielder would be more conservative and my defender more attacking - whereas in a Highly Structured system there is more deviation - again using the examples above, your attacking midfielder would be more attacking and defender more defensive.

This is illustrated in the match engine. In the Player Instruction screen.

However - in my opinion - it is ridiculously unusable. In order to gain any insight you'd need to individually check the mentality of each of your players, remember them and then assuming you'd like to compare with another setting, make the change and check each players mentality again whilst comparing from memory. I tried it once and it was like the scene from A Beautiful Mind.

As I mention in the post - this is easily the topic for an entire thread and discussion!

 

8 hours ago, EuanDewar said:

Great write-up as always mate.

Compactness is something they really need to be clearer about in terms of what affects it, how to go about achieving it etc. There are also some facets of compactness real life-teams that aren't replicable through reasonable means within the game right now (such as elements of the strikers' positioning). 

Thank you very much and I agree with you. I'm very impressed with the current match engine but there are still elements which need ironing out.

 

6 hours ago, tyler16 said:

This thread couldn't be better. I'm going to return to it all the time.

That Bale 1v1 miss against Argentina... ohhhh no!

Absolute heartbreak - as a Welsh rugby fan it somehow felt a fitting end. We actually missed a penalty 10 minutes before the end too.

I was actually very impressed with the Wales team in this system. If I'd made a backup save before the championship I'd be tempted to take a second attempt and I'd fancy my chances. Look at the Argentina results. They were nothing special.

 

5 hours ago, nick1408 said:

Great write up.  A bit of curiosity - when you switch around Bale and Ramsey do you switch the players around behind them?

No. I cut them out of the shot for simplicity as nothing else moved. It was a simple tweak but - at times - significantly changed dynamic.

 

4 hours ago, Kuldaniss said:

I was a very big fan of your Invincibles thread, but always wanted to see something more defensive/counter attacking from you. This is it ! Amazing thread, very nice analysis. The part where you explained why you opted for very structured and how it affects everything was an eye opener. Please keep making these kind of threads. 

Subscribed to you on youtube, will look forward to more content like this. 

Thank you very much and I will do. Cheers.

 

3 hours ago, enigmatic said:

Surprised you didn't experiment with Bale as a Trequartista. Granted, that means he doesn't use his half-decent defensive ability, but on the other hand "let him do his own thing and feed him the ball a lot" is pretty much exactly how I'd want to use him for Wales.

Sometimes I think I'm the only one around here who's not a fan of the Trequartista!  I don't like the lack of defensive effort and I can't stand the lateral movement.

Whenever I play an Attacking Midfielder I almost always need them offering forward movement. The only circumstance I can think of where I wouldn't is behind two strikers in a diamond but I rarely, rarely do that.

I'd take an Advanced Playmaker (Attack) over a Trequartista every day of the week.

 

1 hour ago, MHovel said:

I always wanted to create a tactic with highly structured shape, but I always found it very boring to watch, because the lack of opportunities my team had in front of goal, it might be something related to my tactics while my English back than wasn't really good so I might made some mistakes using some kind of mixed shouts which lead everything look badly in terms of team performance.

Since some real life tactics doesn't always can work, I have a tactical question about my new tactic that I want to create, but I will open a new thread for that.

I really enjoyed reading, thank you.

Until a couple of days ago I felt entirely the same way but I enjoyed the experience. It was an interesting challenge and - having played mainly Very Fluid or Fluid - felt it probably improved my game quite a lot.

Thanks for the feedback and good luck with your tactic.
 

2 minutes ago, PonjaConRulos said:

Amazing article, I really liked how you achieved compactness with a highly structured shape. I've always been confused and I tried compactness only with team shape and not with the formation or roles. The video helps a lot to understand all the things you explained earlier. 

Thank you!

Thank you very much. I think that a lot of people share your confusion on compactness which was a major motivation to write this.
 

[Anaconda Vice]

Ozil, I was very happy to see this in the morning. 

I have been banging on at you about counter tactics with the likes of Simeone and Conte, so seeing this made me very happy, and also for you, hopefully means I will be less annoying with those PM's

I look forward to reading this all now. What I like the look of is that it seems we can play Bale on either flank as well as in the center to perhaps exploit various weaknesses in opposition teams.

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Kuldaniss said:

I was a very big fan of your Invincibles thread, but always wanted to see something more defensive/counter attacking from you. This is it ! Amazing thread, very nice analysis. The part where you explained why you opted for very structured and how it affects everything was an eye opener. Please keep making these kind of threads. 

Subscribed to you on youtube, will look forward to more content like this. 

I'd like to watch some videos too - can you post a link to the channel?
Thanks

[RozA]

Hi Ozil I love this thread. 

I tried recreating a Wales tactic over the summer because of their success and think your one represents them very well. 

I wonder if you will do your own spin on Contes Chelsea as I imagine the core of the formation and tactics won't change more just the Ramsey Bale and Striker roles perhaps. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

33 minutes ago, Anaconda Vice said:

Ozil, I was very happy to see this in the morning. 

I have been banging on at you about counter tactics with the likes of Simeone and Conte, so seeing this made me very happy, and also for you, hopefully means I will be less annoying with those PM's

I look forward to reading this all now. What I like the look of is that it seems we can play Bale on either flank as well as in the center to perhaps exploit various weaknesses in opposition teams.

Fantastic! Some of this should help you out. Enjoy!

 

4 minutes ago, charisma_charisma said:

I'd like to watch some videos too - can you post a link to the channel?
Thanks

 

It's right in the middle of the post in the Analysis section but not very clear.

 

 

3 minutes ago, RozA said:

Hi Ozil I love this thread. 

I tried recreating a Wales tactic over the summer because of their success and think your one represents them very well. 

I wonder if you will do your own spin on Contes Chelsea as I imagine the core of the formation and tactics won't change more just the Ramsey Bale and Striker roles perhaps. 

 

I'm a bit put off doing the Conte system right now, firstly as he's Chelsea  but also because there are so many other people on the forum doing it.

You're right yea, depending on your interpretation I'd say a Structured or Highly Structured system. Very similar compact 3-4 set up in defence and then - for me - an AM-AM-FC combination up front.

Football is very subjective - this is the reason I always start by determining exactly how I interpret a team and then what I want to achieve in FM - always clear about defence, transition and attacking play.

[jukilo]

Hi Ozil!

Been a fan of your threads in the past. But this one is certainly my favorite. I'm the other way around, I'm a fan of the Flexible to Highly Structured spectrum. So this thread have definitely caught my interest.

I'm studying a bit of classic teams to replicate them on the game. Mainly teams with this kind of philosophy (specially Mourinho's teams until Madrid). This thread will help me but the challenge is put all of this with wingers or wide midfielders. I've tried but couldn't do it. Any pointers on this but with wingers? 

Hope that I can have more interest in the game again or I'll return to FM13 haha. FM has become a little bit uninspiring since FM15 but I hope to get better and learn more. This certainlly helps.

Thanks and please continue with this kind of threads!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

26 minutes ago, jukilo said:

I'm studying a bit of classic teams to replicate them on the game. Mainly teams with this kind of philosophy (specially Mourinho's teams until Madrid). This thread will help me but the challenge is put all of this with wingers or wide midfielders. I've tried but couldn't do it. Any pointers on this but with wingers? 

Thank you for the feedback. You're very welcome.

What are you trying to achieve and what is the problem? I agree with you that Wingers in the AMR/L strata are difficult to make compact. For this reason I only use them when a) I don't need them to be compact as the rest of the team can compensate or b) my off-the-ball approach is aggressive pressing.

[shaunwwfc]

This is a bloody brilliant thread. First class. Always easy on the eye and you make idiots like me make actually some sense of tactics in FM. 

Ozil, I was wondering if this system could be adapted to include wide players that get crosses in? Everything about this system ticks all the boxes for me other than the fact it does not include wide players. Do you think moving the wing backs up to the MR/ML strata perhaps using DW would hurt it too much?

If not, do you have any interpretations on Highly Structured/Counter "British" type of 4-4-2? Think Martin O'Neill at AVFC.

[RozA]

1 hour ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I'm a bit put off doing the Conte system right now, firstly as he's Chelsea  but also because there are so many other people on the forum doing it.

You're right yea, depending on your interpretation I'd say a Structured or Highly Structured system. Very similar compact 3-4 set up in defence and then - for me - an AM-AM-FC combination up front.

Football is very subjective - this is the reason I always start by determining exactly how I interpret a team and then what I want to achieve in FM - always clear about defence, transition and attacking play.

I thought the Chelsea factor might have played a part  Also hurts me a bit being an Everton fan considering the 5-0 hammering but at the same time is part of the reason I want to make one to use against Conte and get FM revenge 

 

love your threads anyway Ozil I look forward to seeing what you have got in store for the future 

[Anaconda Vice]

Ozil, quick question if I may,

Do you think this would work as well with a top team such as Atletico, Juventus, PSG?

I ask because I know Wales would be considered a more underdog team and therefore they would find it easier to counter attack teams as the opposition would attack them more than say the teams I mentioned above.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

4 hours ago, Shauny1990 said:

This is a bloody brilliant thread. First class. Always easy on the eye and you make idiots like me make actually some sense of tactics in FM. 

Ozil, I was wondering if this system could be adapted to include wide players that get crosses in? Everything about this system ticks all the boxes for me other than the fact it does not include wide players. Do you think moving the wing backs up to the MR/ML strata perhaps using DW would hurt it too much?

If not, do you have any interpretations on Highly Structured/Counter "British" type of 4-4-2? Think Martin O'Neill at AVFC.

I'd probably push the Team Shape up to structured (to close the gap between midfield and defence) and think carefully about my two MCs. A Defensive winger isn't right for a low-block as a defensive winger has maximum closing down. You'd actually probably be better with a normal winger and hard-working midfield, particularly for the old-school British type team.

 

1 hour ago, Anaconda Vice said:

Ozil, quick question if I may,

Do you think this would work as well with a top team such as Atletico, Juventus, PSG?

I ask because I know Wales would be considered a more underdog team and therefore they would find it easier to counter attack teams as the opposition would attack them more than say the teams I mentioned above.

I'd have to try and see but my guess would be yes, but you'd need to have some kind of more attacking threat. Losing the underdog status means that teams are more likely to sit back against you. You'll need to figure that out.

[Anaconda Vice]

Just now, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

I'd have to try and see but my guess would be yes, but you'd need to have some kind of more attacking threat. Losing the underdog status means that teams are more likely to sit back against you. You'll need to figure that out.

When you say a more attacking threat, do you mean another attacking minded player? Maybe another roamer to open space?

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

15 minutes ago, Anaconda Vice said:

When you say a more attacking threat, do you mean another attacking minded player? Maybe another roamer to open space?

I mean something to break down the sides who don't come forward. Teams will naturally fancy their chances against Wales so commit men forward therefore I can afford a 7-man block and open up lots of space for Bale. The sides you mentioned may not be that lucky. You may need to commit one of the defenders to a more attacking position.

[Colorado]

Not a question but just to say, great thread.

Very interesting to read your take on structured/flexible, something I've never fully grasped.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

15 hours ago, Colorado said:

Not a question but just to say, great thread.

Very interesting to read your take on structured/flexible, something I've never fully grasped.

Thank you very much. Appreciate it.

[Anaconda Vice]

Edit - PM'd you

[jukilo]

On 11/11/2016 at 16:59, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Thank you for the feedback. You're very welcome.

What are you trying to achieve and what is the problem? I agree with you that Wingers in the AMR/L strata are difficult to make compact. For this reason I only use them when a) I don't need them to be compact as the rest of the team can compensate or b) my off-the-ball approach is aggressive pressing.

I don't have any concrete problems to show you or to open a thread about it.

I've played dumb saves to get used to the game again but generally, using structured or highly structured, my wide midfielders on the midfield strata (wingers or standard midfielders) don't approach the striker in enough time to not make him isolated. The football played can become a bit mechanic but I accept that this is part of the limitations occuring from the philosophy.

Usually I put my wingers in the AMLR strata only if play a high pressing game. But it's rare as I don't want them high up when the others teams come and attack me.

I will start a thread in the upcoming days to bot derail yours where I'll try to replicate a classic Mourinho team, using a structured shape. I'm clearly a manager from this part of the shape theory so I want to make this work.

In the meantime maybe I'll use this basic tactic to have fun with another national team. Something like Argentina with Messi a la Maradona upfront on his own doing his magic ^^ 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

5 hours ago, jukilo said:

In the meantime maybe I'll use this basic tactic to have fun with another national team. Something like Argentina with Messi a la Maradona upfront on his own doing his magic ^^ 

Good luck - I must admit that Gareth Bale's brilliance in this save, combined with a weaker overall team had me thinking about a more individualist system.

If I could find a player with that spark, available for a mid / lower end, yet still top division club, I think I'd give it a shot. Coric has potential.

[kandersson]

11 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Good luck - I must admit that Gareth Bale's brilliance in this save, combined with a weaker overall team had me thinking about a more individualist system.

If I could find a player with that spark, available for a mid / lower end, yet still top division club, I think I'd give it a shot. Coric has potential.

Another great read after your FM 16 threads, thanks!

Not sure if you'd have any interest in this, but given your excellent analysis skills and understanding of the game it would be very interesting (at least for me!) to see you revisiting and reinterpreting this old thread by Ackter, not necessarily with Messi or Barcelona but maybe with a particular player/team or specific type of player/role.

 

[poobington]

Great thread. Very interesting to see the opposite spectrum of Team Shape. I have tried my hand at making a 4-4-2 variant Simeone style variant but with not much success. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how you  may set up a compact 4-4-2ish system.

[Bunkerossian]

Well, there goes my premise that a Fluid shape is required for the team to defend well. I am managing a team which has some high mental attributes, but scores low on others (mostly those that govern players' intelligence). So I wasn't sure what to set as the shape.

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

6 hours ago, poobington said:

Great thread. Very interesting to see the opposite spectrum of Team Shape. I have tried my hand at making a 4-4-2 variant Simeone style variant but with not much success. I would be interested to hear your thoughts on how you  may set up a compact 4-4-2ish system.

People seem to really worry about compactness in a 4-4-2. I assume it's down to the lack of players in the defensive midfield strata however the game compensates for this.

Look at your defensive line with a DM verses your defensive line with two banks of four. The DM drops the line back so you actually lose some compactness, playing a DM.

You could further compensate by using a Structured, rather than Highly Structured system and conservative roles in central midfield.

Whenever I see Simeone he's generally got two conservative central midfielders and more aggressive wide midfielders, so compact 4-4-1-1 in defence and a 4-2-2-2 in attack.

 

5 hours ago, Bunkerossian said:

Well, there goes my premise that a Fluid shape is required for the team to defend well. I am managing a team which has some high mental attributes, but scores low on others (mostly those that govern players' intelligence). So I wasn't sure what to set as the shape.

 

Sorry, I don't understand the question how can you have high mental attributes but low intelligence? I'd define 'intelligence' at the combination of the different mental attributes.

[Bunkerossian]

30 minutes ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

People seem to really worry about compactness in a 4-4-2. I assume it's down to the lack of players in the defensive midfield strata however the game compensates for this.

Look at your defensive line with a DM verses your defensive line with two banks of four. The DM drops the line back so you actually lose some compactness, playing a DM.

You could further compensate by using a Structured, rather than Highly Structured system and conservative roles in central midfield.

Whenever I see Simeone he's generally got two conservative central midfielders and more aggressive wide midfielders, so compact 4-4-1-1 in defence and a 4-2-2-2 in attack.

 

 

Sorry, I don't understand the question how can you have high mental attributes but low intelligence? I'd define 'intelligence' at the combination of the different mental attributes.

I take Aggression, Work Rate, Bravery and Teamwork also as mental attributes. The intelligence ones- Decision, Positioning, Anticipation, Composure...these are the ones my team hasn't got.

[HTC]

Ö-zil to the Arsenal! i just wanted to thank you man, enjoying reading and implementing your ideas. Cant wait for more of your topics.

[Jonny2J]

This is a great read. I look forward to seeing how you move on with this style.

[WhyMe]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 21:26, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Ozil, quick question if I may,

Do you think this would work as well with a top team such as Atletico, Juventus, PSG?

I ask because I know Wales would be considered a more underdog team and therefore they would find it easier to counter attack teams as the opposition would attack them more than say the teams I mentioned above.

I'd have to try and see but my guess would be yes, but you'd need to have some kind of more attacking threat. Losing the underdog status means that teams are more likely to sit back against you. You'll need to figure that out.

Hi Ozil,

I'm hoping you can give me some advice and as will become very clear I am not very good at tactics or understanding FM so I apologise if I miss anything obvious.  If you want me to move this question into a new thread then just let me know and I will but I figured I could also bump your excellent thread while I was at it.  Anyway to the story and question.  I found this thread really interesting because before I got FM17 I had it in my mind to try a very similar formation because I loved the idea of an incredibly compact back 7 that forced the opposition into repeatedly wasteful long shots.  The only real difference was 2 AMCs rather than 1 CM and 1 AMC.  Anyway after I finally got FM17 I set about trying to set up such a system using this thread as a baseline.  Much like the quoted post and your response earlier I thought I'd test the system at a top side so I could check and see if it would work without worrying about player quality being the problem and then move to a smaller team to start my career game.  In this case I tested it at Juventus and then moved to Notts County in league 2.  After much trial and error at Juventus I managed to cobble together two related systems that sort of played how I envisioned. 

These were a 3-4-2-1 with the 4 in the DM line and the 2 in the AM line with the following roles:

GK-d

CB-st CD-c CD-st

CWBL-s DMCL = RPM-s DMCR = DM-s CWBR-a

AMCL = SS-a AMCR ENG-a

ST = F9-s

The F9 and SS were given roaming instructions due to the narrow nature of the formation in an attempt to create space and the RPM was told to shoot less and play more direct (so he could switch the play to the other wingback).  The ENG was told to get further forward so he would occasionally get beyond the F9 (though this rarely worked).

The second system was the same except for moving the F9 into the left striker position and moving the SS up to playIng as a central striker with CF-a or AF-a role

In terms of team instructions I have tried numerous combinations but eventually settled on two systems.  The first was a more passive defensive system designed to frustrate the opposition into long shots.  Counter on structured with Drop deeper and no other defensive settings.  Going forward it was shorter passing, wide (an attempt to avoid congestion), more expressive, roam from positions and work ball into box (due to chronic long shot problem).

The second system was a high pressure system for when I needed to chase the ball much like your very fluid pressing system i.e. high line much more closing down and tighter marking often using a control mentality but still with structured.

The idea was that the ENG would sit and link the DM line with the front players and then after play got to the final third occasionally break forward.  The F9 was intended to create space for the SS by dropping deep and then make runs into goal scoring positions from deeper.  The RPM was intended to combine with both the F9 and the ENG to provide control of possession on the edge of the area looking for forward breaking players to slip in.  The DM-s was intended to provide an outlet to recycle possession and provide cover against the counter attack.  Finally the two CWBs were intended to provide the width to the system to stretch the play and of course to cross the ball into the box when appropriate.

However, the whole system Is a bit toothless.  It was fairly successful at Juventus but it was largely dependant on moments of brilliance or set pieces to score goals rather than the tactic truly working.  The problem basically is that the SS doesn't get beyond the F9 anywhere near enough and the ENG almost never does (though that was less expected) and F9 barely contributes to attacking threat.  Basically at its best I get a lot of sterile possession outside the opposition box with no one making aggressive runs into the box and eventually taking a long shot (though I have scored some belters from range) and at worst I lose the ball after getting bogged down in midfield with no threat on goal at all.

Often the wingbacks seem to get isolated from the rest of the team and if I try putting the striker on attack duty to attempt to carry some threat he basically never sees the ball.  Clearly I am going something wrong and I feel that of the front three I need at least two of them to be a decent goal threat (my original plan was the F9 and SS to be the main threats in the team) but it hasn't worked.  I am very open to any changes to the roles, system, mentality or shape  but I would very much like to keep the formation as it is if at all possible as I really like the idea.  I am not trying to play like Conte (fellow Arsenal fan) or anything I just wanted to get a three at the back solid defensive system working as I was almost exclusively flat back four in FM16 and I fancied a change in FM17.  If you can help it would be greatly appreciated and if you would rather I move this request into a new thread then just let me know.

Thank you

[Rashidi]

When you mentioned the need to use a playmaker within a highly structured shape to compensate for the mentality splits.  I knew then that you understand how it works.

To form a balanced tactic we need to consider mentality shape roles and duties. Nice article.

[westy8chimp]

Excellent read - will take some of these principles into my current save as I've just been promoted to premier league and will be bottom of most of the attributes charts. I've tended to only use highly Structured if I was playing very specific roles/style (either playmakers into a technically strong TM or wingers direct to a tall aerially strong TM) - and if i want a more flair/varied attack I've switched to fluid. You've managed to use high structure much more liberally in tandem with the counter attack mentality to still keep your attacks varied.

The WBs took up some lovely positions so I can focus my budget there ... I see James Tavernier as a great counter attacking WB and I can probably snatch him for less than £1m.

 

[WhyMe]

Just a quick update.  I seemed to have largely solved my problems.  I ended up changing the enganche to a AP support and the striker to a poacher (though he occasionally becomes a DLF-a in certain games against certain formations).  The rest of the team roles have stayed the same.  This has given me two main goal threats in the SS and the poacher, two play makers who control the game in the RPM and AP-s and the DM-s who sits a bit deeper to provide an out ball to recycle possession when needed and cover on the counter (he becomes DM-d against certain top heavy formations).

However, it is in the instructions that there has been the biggest change.  I am now playing on control almost exclusively and with a normal defensive line and very high press with tight marking.  Going forward I am using wide, pass into space, short passing, be more expressive, dribble less, roam and work ball.  It is a lot of instructions though it creates a coherent style of play quite deliberately.

I'm really enjoyed the style of play and the results at Juventus.  However, as soon as I tried it at Notts County the old problems came back.  No penetration, wing backs not as involved as they could be, even the defense was much less effective.  So still would greatly appreciate any advice!

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

On 29 November 2016 at 11:13, Rashidi said:

When you mentioned the need to use a playmaker within a highly structured shape to compensate for the mentality splits.  I knew then that you understand how it works.

To form a balanced tactic we need to consider mentality shape roles and duties. Nice article.

Thank you very much. Means a lot coming from an expert like yourself.

 

On 3 December 2016 at 07:29, WhyMe said:

Just a quick update.  I seemed to have largely solved my problems.  I ended up changing the enganche to a AP support and the striker to a poacher (though he occasionally becomes a DLF-a in certain games against certain formations).  The rest of the team roles have stayed the same.  This has given me two main goal threats in the SS and the poacher, two play makers who control the game in the RPM and AP-s and the DM-s who sits a bit deeper to provide an out ball to recycle possession when needed and cover on the counter (he becomes DM-d against certain top heavy formations).

However, it is in the instructions that there has been the biggest change.  I am now playing on control almost exclusively and with a normal defensive line and very high press with tight marking.  Going forward I am using wide, pass into space, short passing, be more expressive, dribble less, roam and work ball.  It is a lot of instructions though it creates a coherent style of play quite deliberately.

I'm really enjoyed the style of play and the results at Juventus.  However, as soon as I tried it at Notts County the old problems came back.  No penetration, wing backs not as involved as they could be, even the defense was much less effective.  So still would greatly appreciate any advice!

Glad to hear you're having some success. What exactly is the problem? It seems that you're using an almost entirely system to the system discussed in the thread? Poacher, high pressing, control etc, the Wales system above is basically the opposite?

[WhyMe]

Hi Ozil,

Your right I did radically change the system for Juventus as, like you predicted, it wasn't working effectively enough against teams that sat deep to defend against superior opposition.  To be honest the Juventus game was just a test game to try and get a system that worked in order to use it in a career save.  However, I eventually gave up on that as what worked for Juve simply didn't work for Notts County, no big surprise I guess.  Anyway I simply couldn't get a 2 AMC system to work so eventually I switched to a 3-4-1-2 system which works pretty nicely.  It is very different from what you created for this thread though so I won't add it here.  Thanks for your reply and the interesting reading.

[johnnyyakuza78]

Just wanted to mention that Ozil's threads have made him my absolute FM hero! Worship the king!
 
I've recently moved my counter attacking tactic to 'more structured' and I've loved the effect of it. I was scared that it would create far too much space between the lines but that hasn't been the case, I'm guessing because I don't use to many attacking duties? I have seen an improvement in adding an attack duty to strikers when I feel the opposition has pushed too high, and it seems to help me exploit that space a bit better.

I also noticed that I have less crazy defender brainfarts as they don't step out of line so much any more. 

Otherwise just wanted to put some good karma onto this thread and all the other excellent recreations!

[jukilo]

Hey Ozil!

I want to discuss some things with you. I've taken Liverpool in the beginning of the game and I want to play a system based on Simeone/Mourinho old school. I was using the principles outlined here.

I've started with the transfer window disabled. The recruitment of players isn't one of my best facets and I always struggle to identify if or which player is good for my approach. Therefore I left that disabled to not give me additional pressure.

So starting with the original squad, in my mind, my best players are Henderson and Coutinho. The full backs, Lovren and Mane are others that I want to maximize as well. With this in mind I started with the following setup:

Highly Structured/Counter. Zero TI/PIB.  From right to left:

GK (D)

FB (s) for Clyne. 

CD - Lovren and Sakho.

WB (s) for Moreno

DM (s) for Henderson ( 

DLP (d) for Leiva

W (A) for Mane 

B2b for Lallana

WP (a) for Coutinho

CF (s) for Firmino or Origi ( Sturridge was always injured)

The idea was to give Mane and Coutinho an higher variation from the base to make them more effective and fully use their qualities. Moreno would give width on the left and Clyne would support on the right.

This didn't go well. And I don't understand why. For sure I don't have Bale or even Ramsey type of players. But Liverpool had some good players to make this work.

The main problems were linked with errors from the center backs, lack of pressure in front of the defense and lacking quality to bring the ball upfront. 

Now that I wrote this I realise that I could have give a more aggressive role to Henderson. Like regista or Roaming Playmaker. But I don't thrust his decisions and other attributes related. That's why I didn't use it. 

My question is: how can I make this work? Can you give some ideas? I toyed with the idea of 2 strikers with the all the rest the same. But couldn't find an ideal combination neither how to bring the ball forward with quality. 

I'm sure that some of the players lack quality in some departments to play this way. But I would bring new faces in the January market with some already identified.

So, any ideas guys?

Cheers in advance

EDIT: forgot to add that if you feel somehow that this isn't adequate for the discussion you created just let me know and I will start my own thread.

[Romers]

Are there any resources you can recommend for me to build the Conte 343 in the same way? Zonal Marking don't seem to have it. I have a rough idea but want to decide what to do for the defensive line and the pressing - is it a medium block or high etc 

[Rummy]

Great thread @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, really enjoyed it! 

I have one question though,

You said that you didn't use a very fluid team shape (which is more compact) because of the creative freedom it gives to the team, but I thought - why didn't you use a very fluid shape with 'be more disciplined' TI? This way you get the compactness of the very fluid shape with the desired discipline.. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

8 hours ago, Rummy said:

Great thread @Ö-zil to the Arsenal!, really enjoyed it! 

I have one question though,

You said that you didn't use a very fluid team shape (which is more compact) because of the creative freedom it gives to the team, but I thought - why didn't you use a very fluid shape with 'be more disciplined' TI? This way you get the compactness of the very fluid shape with the desired discipline.. 

Good question and there are a couple of reasons:

1. I have no idea whether the Be More Disciplined TI reduces creative freedom extensively or marginally, so I avoid using it. To me, Very Fluid gives maximum Creative Freedom and Be More Disciplined gives a mystery amount less. In which case, Very Fluid + Be More Disciplined gives a Creative Freedom of somewhere below maximum  This is opening up a whole can of worms.
2. Given that I am playing a lower mentality, setting Very Fluid would set my entire team's mentality very low whereas I actually want Bale & Ramsey to deviate from this quite a lot. To see what I mean, set any formation with an AMC and a counter mentality. Set the AMC to Shadow Striker (Attack). Firstly set the Team Shape to Very Fluid and then take a look at the Shadow Striker's Mentality in the Player Instruction screen. Then change the shape to Highly Structured and take another look. You'll see a huge difference, possibly 3x higher.
3. I enjoy using the tactics creator in a realistic way - using mentalities, team shapes, formations, roles etc that readers can relate to the actual team I am talking about. I am not sure anyone saw Wales 5-man defence as particularly fluid or "free-flowing". This is why I am not a fan of Very Fluid with Defensive mentalities as a free-flowing defence just doesn't make sense to me. One of my motivations for writing this was seeing users describe Jose Mourinho as Very Fluid due to compactness whereas - to me - that's a long way from the mark. There's obviously more than one way to create most tactical systems but I think that solutions which reader's cannot relate to can be confusing particularly for newer players.

[Rummy]

Got it, that makes a lot of sense. 

[Jean0987654321]

On 12/19/2016 at 12:40, jukilo said:

Hey Ozil!

I want to discuss some things with you. I've taken Liverpool in the beginning of the game and I want to play a system based on Simeone/Mourinho old school. I was using the principles outlined here.

I've started with the transfer window disabled. The recruitment of players isn't one of my best facets and I always struggle to identify if or which player is good for my approach. Therefore I left that disabled to not give me additional pressure.

So starting with the original squad, in my mind, my best players are Henderson and Coutinho. The full backs, Lovren and Mane are others that I want to maximize as well. With this in mind I started with the following setup:

Highly Structured/Counter. Zero TI/PIB.  From right to left:

GK (D)

FB (s) for Clyne. 

CD - Lovren and Sakho.

WB (s) for Moreno

DM (s) for Henderson ( 

DLP (d) for Leiva

W (A) for Mane 

B2b for Lallana

WP (a) for Coutinho

CF (s) for Firmino or Origi ( Sturridge was always injured)

The idea was to give Mane and Coutinho an higher variation from the base to make them more effective and fully use their qualities. Moreno would give width on the left and Clyne would support on the right.

This didn't go well. And I don't understand why. For sure I don't have Bale or even Ramsey type of players. But Liverpool had some good players to make this work.

The main problems were linked with errors from the center backs, lack of pressure in front of the defense and lacking quality to bring the ball upfront. 

Now that I wrote this I realise that I could have give a more aggressive role to Henderson. Like regista or Roaming Playmaker. But I don't thrust his decisions and other attributes related. That's why I didn't use it. 

My question is: how can I make this work? Can you give some ideas? I toyed with the idea of 2 strikers with the all the rest the same. But couldn't find an ideal combination neither how to bring the ball forward with quality. 

I'm sure that some of the players lack quality in some departments to play this way. But I would bring new faces in the January market with some already identified.

So, any ideas guys?

Cheers in advance

EDIT: forgot to add that if you feel somehow that this isn't adequate for the discussion you created just let me know and I will start my own thread.

That shape is a bit weird. Moreover, I'm not a big fan of play a very ridgid shape in a very low 4-2-3-1. You'll leave your striker on a island and you'll lose compactness as Ozil said. Saying that, move everybody in the center up and go for a more 4-4-1-1 shape and change the shape to ridgid. 

[jukilo]

5 hours ago, Jean0987654321 said:

That shape is a bit weird. Moreover, I'm not a big fan of play a very ridgid shape in a very low 4-2-3-1. You'll leave your striker on a island and you'll lose compactness as Ozil said. Saying that, move everybody in the center up and go for a more 4-4-1-1 shape and change the shape to ridgid. 

Why weird? Just tried to apply the principles from this thread with a system that I like. 

[Ö-zil to the Arsenal!]

6 hours ago, jukilo said:

Why weird? Just tried to apply the principles from this thread with a system that I like. 

Apologies for the late reply. Your message caught me as I was flying half way around the world for christmas!

My suggestion would be that - to me - this type of system needs an attacking spearhead, otherwise you're just defending for the sake of defending. Someone who's a goal threat when the opposition overcommits. In my case Bale.

Big fan of Mane, but not overly familiar with his stats. Depending on his off-the-ball movement, composure and finishing he could be a good option. Otherwise - off the top of my head - you may have to look outside the current Liverpool squad.

Klopp's Liverpool are a phenomenal attacking unit, but it's precisely that - a unit - rather than an individual.

[jukilo]

4 hours ago, Ö-zil to the Arsenal! said:

Apologies for the late reply. Your message caught me as I was flying half way around the world for christmas!

My suggestion would be that - to me - this type of system needs an attacking spearhead, otherwise you're just defending for the sake of defending. Someone who's a goal threat when the opposition overcommits. In my case Bale.

Big fan of Mane, but not overly familiar with his stats. Depending on his off-the-ball movement, composure and finishing he could be a good option. Otherwise - off the top of my head - you may have to look outside the current Liverpool squad.

Klopp's Liverpool are a phenomenal attacking unit, but it's precisely that - a unit - rather than an individual.

No worries man! Thank you for your answer.

I did think of Mane to use as that option but I'm just like you. I don't like his stats and I only use him to give me more verticality and flair. But not always, most of the time he his on the bench,

But this doesn't mind. I've unistalled the game. Too much negative emotions to continue playing and this isn't the intention of video games.

Keep up the good work and please show more of that Messi thing you have