From FM 16 to 17: A 4312 Journey

[Draktor]

Introduction

So, where to start? My journey to FM 17 has been a long one, I started playing FM 16 as I normally do, with a lower league journeyman save. I ended up starting in the bottom Belgium league at Overijse who were at the bottom, after a relatively good first season I then began to struggle, season after season. I spent 5 years at Overijse getting relegated in the final season. Disaster really, I was struggling but then ended up at Francs Borains. The first 5 years I spent going from 12^th to 6^th back to 12^th again, I couldn’t get anything to work. Complete nightmare and something had to change.

After this constant plodding along for 10 season and numerous computer monitors being smashed I started to count the cost, I was around 300 GBP down. I then reached out to @Rashidi on the forums to help me create a better ROI for my time (and money). He agreed to help me with some consulting, exchanging his normal business consulting services for Football Manager (yes, really!). A good ROI for me, and a saving of many computer monitors.

How did the 4312 come about?

To cut a long story short I learned about various systems and how to put them together with Football Manager’s tactic builder. Originally I had a 442 with Francs Borains that got us promoted to the Belgium 2^nd division, my first ever promotion on the game after around 13 seasons stuck in the der klasse. A great achievement from where I came from. I then spent a few seasons keeping us in the Belgium 2^nd division but due to a falling out with the board I ended up at Antwerp.

At Antwerp things moved fast, I got promoted to the top division using a 442 again and then went with a 352 to try and keep my place in the 1^st division. Having secured that I found tere was a lack of good wing backs available to me which would allow me to progress the club so switched to a 433. 

I made good progress season after season and ended up winning the league a few times. As time went on teams started to get very defensive so I needed something different as the 433 wasn’t cut it anymore…enter my own product, the 4312.

4312

I went with a 4312 as it created more of an overload to teams who were playing extremely defensively against me. I am especially proud of it as my work with @Rashidi had got to the point where I was able to see a problem myself and create a formation I had never used or done before as a solution.

 

Let’s take a look at what’s going on:

 

CD(d): Pretty standard two central defenders

FB(a): The fullbacks are attacking as I want maximum width from them, however, if the other team are attacking I may change the fullbacks to FB(s), to steal a quote from @Rashidi….shut down the flanks.

On these fullbacks I want them to stay wider to provide an outlet. In lower leagues you can also add on Fewer risky passes to stop wild passes with fullbacks of less ability.

DLP(d): I need a playmaker and in this instance, I prefer a deeper one as he would get more space deeper and it affords me more attacking options further up the pitch.

CM(s): This is probably the most controversial points; in this position, I need players to cover the flanks, but also support the defence and attack, thus I need support players in these positions. Then as I need the players to go out wide to put in tackles it boils down to two roles, CM & BWM. The reason I chose CM(s) instead of BMW(s) is predominantly a choice of player available. I chose aggressive, hardworking players for those roles so I didn’t want to combine this with a BWM(s) role.

At the moment, I do not have any PIs on these players but you can set them up as BWM using CM(s) and not use hard tackling just by increasing the closing down.

AM(a), F9, AF: The 3 roles were chosen very carefully, basically I wanted one player to push the defensive line so chose the AF. I then chose a F9 to create movement up front and drag defenders out of place allowing the AM to enter the space and score.

Mentality, team shape and instructions

With my Antwerp side generally expected to win I wanted to control the play but didn’t want to start as attacking I wanted to measure my approach to the game. So, would start on control along with structured. Structured as it spreads the players out and asks them to stick to the roles and instructions I have given, thus limiting the initial risk taking for the start of the matches.

However, one of the main things that has been taught throughout my sessions with @Rashidi was that you should have a base tactic that can be used on several mentalities with different team shapes, so I do tend to switch these depending on the circumstances. Here’s a very quick summary with team instructions:

 

 

Control – Structured – base to start from

Attacking – Structured – want to take a few more risks, but still want to keep the team performing as I want

Control – Fluid – need a goal more, want to take a bit more risk and give the players a few more decisions to make and not push up against their defensive line as much

Attacking – Very Fluid – We need a goal; I want them to take much more risks and cause the opposition the maximum amount of problems.

When you have a balanced tactic you should be able to switch between these mentalities & team shape depending on what happens in the match.

One things of note, I do use Stay on Feet and Use offside trap as you can see above, however, you have to make sure that you have the right players for that. In addition, at each point of the above setups you can increase/decrease the width or increase/decrease the defensive line, don’t be frightened to do that I do that sometimes.

What attributes do I need?

Generally, I tend to favour, acceleration, bravery, concentration and positioning, though I do factor in work rate and teamwork. This is because @Rashidi told me too, just joking, somewhat. It was brought to my attention by @Rashidi that these are extremely important and are even more important in a 4312 as you have a relatively narrow and grouped formation so if you want to control the game you need to be first to the ball. Those highlighted attributes are essential to that.

Apart from that let’s look at a few recommended attributes per position.

CD(d): Acceleration, pace, tackling, marking, positioning, bravery & concentration. You need fast defenders for a high line

FB(a): Same as base stats with tackling, marking and crossing

DLP(d): Base stats with good defensive and playmaking abilities

CM(s): Some aggression, base stats as well as high work rate and teamwork I would say

AM(a): Fast, brave, good off the ball, good playmaking abilities with a good mentality such as anticipation

F9: Fast, good off the ball, finishing, dribbling, play making abilities a bonus

AF: Extremely fast, good finisher, off the ball and anticipation & composure

The above is just a quick guide, obviously, some attributes are more important than others

Does this work in FM 17? What about lower league?

Yes, it does work in FM 17, works well. I am using it with Dag & Red (lower league) as we couldn’t buy any players over the summer due to a transfer embargo. Let’s take a look.

 

So, are there any differences? A few at the moment, my fullbacks are generally set at support and are told fewer risky passes. That’s about it for changes, it seems that the majority of the formations I have used in FM 16 also work nicely in FM 17 with the systems that were laid out.

[Jungztar]

Excellent thread..... Basically I have gotten to the same conclusions by following Rashidi's Youtube channel and reading his blogs.....

It's a real eye opener and you suddenly realise that if you follow the basic concept (your own concept) then you can succeed with any formation or playing style....

I haven't played FM17 yet but I'm guessing that it will Work if you follow the same principles..... 

[imabearlol]

Got a 4312 working very well in FM2016, I talked about it in this thread further down. With the Daggers as well, no less.

[Rashidi]

Thanks for the shout out Draktor.

The one thing I always do when I pick a new team is to see how they stack up against the rest of the league with respect to attributes. Without a doubt, this knowledge will prove pivotal when you need to design your systems. Ultimately, your players determine what you can do.

It was good to see how you adapted once you started getting a better squad.

Proud of you.

[danfmnoob]

im at Weston Super Mare using the same formation. I have found 3 CM with good work rate, team work and tackling! I want good protection for the defenders. also using DLP-D with 2 BWM -s either side of him, I find that the 3 in the middle stay to close together and with BMW the spread is a bit better. im playing with a balanced width too, I must try fewer risky passes on FBs as mine keep trying to hit a long pass in to the corner of the pitch where there is no player

[Draktor]

On 11/7/2016 at 20:55, Jungztar said:

Excellent thread..... Basically I have gotten to the same conclusions by following Rashidi's Youtube channel and reading his blogs.....

It's a real eye opener and you suddenly realise that if you follow the basic concept (your own concept) then you can succeed with any formation or playing style....

I haven't played FM17 yet but I'm guessing that it will Work if you follow the same principles..... 

Yes his youtube channel really is a great watch! I really do find it much easier to play now just having a base tactics and changing the mentality, shape and, occasionally, the instructions.

Absolutely, my 4312 is going good guns in FM 17 as well, exactly the same setup basically. I have also had good results from the 442 as well. 433, not as much as my 3 forwards weren't good enough to pull off the system. So if you do purchase 17, then your tactics and methods from 16 should work.

 

On 11/8/2016 at 02:00, imabearlol said:

Got a 4312 working very well in FM2016, I talked about it in this thread further down. With the Daggers as well, no less.

Thanks for this, I will check it out! Just a quick question, with a WB(s) on your left along with a BBM(s), did you get exposed at all? What did the BBM add going forward for you? Looks an interesting setup actually.

 

On 11/8/2016 at 07:44, Rashidi said:

Thanks for the shout out Draktor.

The one thing I always do when I pick a new team is to see how they stack up against the rest of the league with respect to attributes. Without a doubt, this knowledge will prove pivotal when you need to design your systems. Ultimately, your players determine what you can do.

It was good to see how you adapted once you started getting a better squad.

Proud of you.

Thanks Rashidi, frankly I wouldn't be anywhere near this level without your personal help and your videos!

 

21 hours ago, danfmnoob said:

im at Weston Super Mare using the same formation. I have found 3 CM with good work rate, team work and tackling! I want good protection for the defenders. also using DLP-D with 2 BWM -s either side of him, I find that the 3 in the middle stay to close together and with BMW the spread is a bit better. im playing with a balanced width too, I must try fewer risky passes on FBs as mine keep trying to hit a long pass in to the corner of the pitch where there is no player

Yep! That's awesome, I found that you can interchange CM(s) (with no instructions) with BMW(s) so long as they have a bit of aggression, but interestingly @Rashidi showed me a tip  a while ago that you can replicate the BWM(s) with a CM(s) without the need to accept the hard tackling. However, I do like that the BWM(s) starts a bit deeper, how have you found it? With the BWM(s) how do you fit your FBs in? Are they actually the Full Back role or do you go with something more adventurous like a wing back?

The Fewer Risky Passes could help with that, though occasionally it can make it worse as booting the ball up is the safest way of doing it, depends. I added it as at this level my FB(a)'s aren't great. However, at Antwerp didn't have that on, in fact I always retrained midfielders to play at fullbacks as they were essential to breaking teams down so wanted them passing well.

[Jungztar]

How do you setup your AMC in the 4312? As a shadow striker or playmaker? I'm guessing that he is a runner to exploit the Space created by the F9?

I have tried different Things like Roam from position or Move into Space.... but none of them seem to get the best result... I am using Zivkovic and it's just not clicking

[danfmnoob]

49 minutes ago, Jungztar said:

How do you setup your AMC in the 4312? As a shadow striker or playmaker? I'm guessing that he is a runner to exploit the Space created by the F9?

I have tried different Things like Roam from position or Move into Space.... but none of them seem to get the best result... I am using Zivkovic and it's just not clicking

I go with a simple AMC-A as I feel he runs in the box more allowing my DLF-S to drag defenders away and my AMC to run in to the space.

[danfmnoob]

4 hours ago, Draktor said:

Yes his youtube channel really is a great watch! I really do find it much easier to play now just having a base tactics and changing the mentality, shape and, occasionally, the instructions.

Absolutely, my 4312 is going good guns in FM 17 as well, exactly the same setup basically. I have also had good results from the 442 as well. 433, not as much as my 3 forwards weren't good enough to pull off the system. So if you do purchase 17, then your tactics and methods from 16 should work.

 

Thanks for this, I will check it out! Just a quick question, with a WB(s) on your left along with a BBM(s), did you get exposed at all? What did the BBM add going forward for you? Looks an interesting setup actually.

 

Thanks Rashidi, frankly I wouldn't be anywhere near this level without your personal help and your videos!

 

Yep! That's awesome, I found that you can interchange CM(s) (with no instructions) with BMW(s) so long as they have a bit of aggression, but interestingly @Rashidi showed me a tip  a while ago that you can replicate the BWM(s) with a CM(s) without the need to accept the hard tackling. However, I do like that the BWM(s) starts a bit deeper, how have you found it? With the BWM(s) how do you fit your FBs in? Are they actually the Full Back role or do you go with something more adventurous like a wing back?

The Fewer Risky Passes could help with that, though occasionally it can make it worse as booting the ball up is the safest way of doing it, depends. I added it as at this level my FB(a)'s aren't great. However, at Antwerp didn't have that on, in fact I always retrained midfielders to play at fullbacks as they were essential to breaking teams down so wanted them passing well.

I love @Rashidi advice, he simplifies the game for me.

it depends on the game situation really, I start with FB-S and if I feel the front 3 cant break the team down I will move to WB-S I don't think you need them on A as with the WB PI he gets far enough to offer an outlet out wide. the main reason for the BWM was to see if my 3 in the middle spread out a bit more. I only get to play the game 3 nights a week so I haven't tried anything more with the full backs. I might try 1 BWM and one CM-s with the PI's set to a BWM without the tackling set high. see how that plans out.

[Draktor]

On 11/9/2016 at 18:37, Jungztar said:

How do you setup your AMC in the 4312? As a shadow striker or playmaker? I'm guessing that he is a runner to exploit the Space created by the F9?

I have tried different Things like Roam from position or Move into Space.... but none of them seem to get the best result... I am using Zivkovic and it's just not clicking

 

On 11/9/2016 at 19:28, danfmnoob said:

I go with a simple AMC-A as I feel he runs in the box more allowing my DLF-S to drag defenders away and my AMC to run in to the space.

 

@Jungztar I have similar to @danfmnoob, playing an AMC(a) along with a F9 & AF upfront, my F9 takes the defenders away and the AMC occupies the space. I haven't tried a SS, however, one thing I found and do enjoy is the AMC(a) does get involved in defensive situations. When the ball gets into your half he tends to come back and help out (if hardworking enough).

To show you this is my best AMC(a) I have had, he tends to have pace, bravery, off the ball, first touch, vision and passing. I would also point out that his PPMs were great and seemed to fit the role perfectly. However, performance does vary depending on how good or what strengths your F9 has. For example, his second season wasn't as good but that is due to an upgrade in F9 that was much better at finishing. 

 

[Draktor]

On 11/9/2016 at 19:33, danfmnoob said:

I love @Rashidi advice, he simplifies the game for me.

it depends on the game situation really, I start with FB-S and if I feel the front 3 cant break the team down I will move to WB-S I don't think you need them on A as with the WB PI he gets far enough to offer an outlet out wide. the main reason for the BWM was to see if my 3 in the middle spread out a bit more. I only get to play the game 3 nights a week so I haven't tried anything more with the full backs. I might try 1 BWM and one CM-s with the PI's set to a BWM without the tackling set high. see how that plans out.

Sounds interesting, I haven't tried a WB(s) before in that position, I tended to go between FB(a) & FB(s), I will give that a try.

[Jungztar]

3 hours ago, Draktor said:

 

@Jungztar I have similar to @danfmnoob, playing an AMC(a) along with a F9 & AF upfront, my F9 takes the defenders away and the AMC occupies the space. I haven't tried a SS, however, one thing I found and do enjoy is the AMC(a) does get involved in defensive situations. When the ball gets into your half he tends to come back and help out (if hardworking enough).

To show you this is my best AMC(a) I have had, he tends to have pace, bravery, off the ball, first touch, vision and passing. I would also point out that his PPMs were great and seemed to fit the role perfectly. However, performance does vary depending on how good or what strengths your F9 has. For example, his second season wasn't as good but that is due to an upgrade in F9 that was much better at finishing. 

 

 

Great thanks.... Do you use any Player Instructions or do you rely soly on his PPMs?

[Draktor]

On 11/11/2016 at 03:10, Jungztar said:

Great thanks.... Do you use any Player Instructions or do you rely soly on his PPMs?

I never use PIs on the AM(a) and in fact until this player never trained them in those PPMs, just fell upon it by accident!

[Coolio5]

do you have a more defensive set up for when you are looking to see a game out? I.e switch to defensive/structured or do you stick with the base tactic and lower defensive line?

 

[Rashidi]

I reckon he'd either change shape or mentality, maybe add in the shout retain possession if he wanted to go more defensive. I doubt he is going to mess with the roles

[Coolio5]

36 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

I reckon he'd either change shape or mentality, maybe add in the shout retain possession if he wanted to go more defensive. I doubt he is going to mess with the roles

ok, thanks

[Coolio5]

This tactic works very well for me and I also have a 4132 that I use against teams that play wingers in the AML or AMR or against 4231.

where I put fb on defend with more direct passes and a cm on attack.

I'm buying and training players against the system and it was a bit of a light bulb moment.

Thanks for the post.

[Coolio5]

how do people deal with teams parking the bus after a little success with this tactic. Do you switch to counter/structured to make them come out or do you go control/fluid to allow more individual decisions/creativity? Normally I would play wider to stretch the play, but this is a narrow formation.

[Jessan]

On 3-1-2017 at 09:22, Coolio5 said:

how do people deal with teams parking the bus after a little success with this tactic. Do you switch to counter/structured to make them come out or do you go control/fluid to allow more individual decisions/creativity? Normally I would play wider to stretch the play, but this is a narrow formation.

I usually put my fullback on attack, put the central midfielder as a CM on defend and put the playmaker on MCL or MCR when a team parks the bus against me. Yes it's more risky cause of counters but the CMd tends to drop a bit lower to cover and your fulbacks will bomb up the flank giving you width.