Jump to content

Should FM go use a different art style for their match engine?


Recommended Posts

The graphics in FM have always been poor, they have to cater for a casual fan base which means they cant make the game too demanding on the hardware side. Thats fine and i fully understand it.

The problem is, they still try and make the game realistic, which with their hardware limitations just isnt possible.

Im suprised they havent gone down the route that games like parkitect or overwatch have done. Even borderlands to some degree.

Planet coaster has gone for the realistic approach and it looks wonderful, similar to how fifa/pro evo look great. Parkitect knew there limitations so they didnt try to make it look realistic, but it still looks great.

I think they could make the game look better if they changed their art style to something like sensible soccer 2006 (without the big heads)

The latest version of Sensible soccer came out 10 years ago, yet it looks better then FM 2017 because it wasnt trying to imitate fifa/real life. It knew its limits and the casual fan base, it doesnt look realistic but it looked good (for 2006) its GPU specs are also less demanding.

Im not saying make the game completely cartoony, but its trying to be something it cant be right now and it looks poor. I know we dont play FM for the graphics, but its nearly 2017 and it still looks awful

Link to post
Share on other sites
18 minutes ago, trevjim said:

The graphics in FM have always been poor, they have to cater for a casual fan base which means they cant make the game too demanding on the hardware side. Thats fine and i fully understand it.

The problem is, they still try and make the game realistic, which with their hardware limitations just isnt possible.

Im suprised they havent gone down the route that games like parkitect or overwatch have done. Even borderlands to some degree.

Planet coaster has gone for the realistic approach and it looks wonderful, similar to how fifa/pro evo look great. Parkitect knew there limitations so they didnt try to make it look realistic, but it still looks great.

I think they could make the game look better if they changed their art style to something like sensible soccer 2006 (without the big heads)

The latest version of Sensible soccer came out 10 years ago, yet it looks better then FM 2017 because it wasnt trying to imitate fifa/real life. It knew its limits and the casual fan base, it doesnt look realistic but it looked good (for 2006) its GPU specs are also less demanding.

Im not saying make the game completely cartoony, but its trying to be something it cant be right now and it looks poor. I know we dont play FM for the graphics, but its nearly 2017 and it still looks awful

I hope not, after a period of stagnation with the graphics, it is now going in the right direction towards some kind of realism tied into what is happening in the ME.  I would say they are going their own way and not try to be FIFA and I think at last they are on the right road.

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 hour ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

Anyone who plays FM for the graphics needs to have a word with themselves. 

This may be true Dave, but if you are playing in 3D and the animations dont reflect what is going on in the ME it can be frustrating.  As I said I believe that SI are finally going in the right direction,FM17 looks a big improvement on previous versions

Link to post
Share on other sites

After heavily playing FM17 since Beta release (hitting 100 hours), I watched the Wolves v Derby game on Sky today and my mind actually thought for the first few seconds it was one of my matches in FM17 (I am playing L1 atm)....its not about the graphics, but the ME has come along way over the last few years that it is now starting to resemble a real game, the way the players move and kick the ball, and the camera angles too. The first goal scored by Derby was actually quite similar to what I have seen ingame...looking forward to see how it progresses over the next few years!

This game is frustrating me a lot though as I am so obsessed that I havent touched Mafia in 3 weeks, only played an hour of Skyrim Special Edition and I am worried when I get my PS4 Pro on Thursday that I can t take myself away from this game...no other game in the series has got me this hooked!

Link to post
Share on other sites

Yes , even in FM 2017 there alot of actions doesn't samulate well due to lack of 3d animations , although every year they increase these animations , I think that the ME is good , but the graphics and 3d modelling needs to be much better  

Link to post
Share on other sites
7 hours ago, trevjim said:

The graphics in FM have always been poor, they have to cater for a casual fan base which means they cant make the game too demanding on the hardware side. Thats fine and i fully understand it.

The problem is, they still try and make the game realistic, which with their hardware limitations just isnt possible.

Im suprised they havent gone down the route that games like parkitect or overwatch have done. Even borderlands to some degree.

Planet coaster has gone for the realistic approach and it looks wonderful, similar to how fifa/pro evo look great. Parkitect knew there limitations so they didnt try to make it look realistic, but it still looks great.

I think they could make the game look better if they changed their art style to something like sensible soccer 2006 (without the big heads)

The latest version of Sensible soccer came out 10 years ago, yet it looks better then FM 2017 because it wasnt trying to imitate fifa/real life. It knew its limits and the casual fan base, it doesnt look realistic but it looked good (for 2006) its GPU specs are also less demanding.

Im not saying make the game completely cartoony, but its trying to be something it cant be right now and it looks poor. I know we dont play FM for the graphics, but its nearly 2017 and it still looks awful

I made this suggestion a couple of times before in another thread, too. I completely agree and think that graphics could (or should rather) be better. I think a different direction should be taken with regards to the 3D graphics but unfortunately judging by the progress made with each installment, they will continue down the current path.

I personally stick with 2D as I cannot watch 3D due to skating/floating, inconsistent player movement/animations and goalkeeper animations. I will watch some goals in 3D if they were built-up well however even then, I get turned off after watching it and switch back to 2D and let my imagination do the rest. ;)

Link to post
Share on other sites

YES! Graphics should be better!

A few years ago the general excuse was: "well... Being a strategy simulation, gamers aren't into FM for the graphics...".

But this is 2016, into 2017, folks!

if I can play Rome Total War with 10,000 characters across open uneven terrains, why can't SI/FM visually blow our minds with a flat green pitch with 22 characters (+ referees and fan shadows)? ...

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
4 minutes ago, phd_angel said:

if I can play Rome Total War with 10,000 characters across open uneven terrains, why can't SI/FM visually blow our minds with a flat green pitch with 22 characters (+ referees and fan shadows)? ...

 

Because R:TW isn't making the number of independant decisions & movements that FM is every second?

Its much more limited in its options leading to a much lower number of animations required.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Seems to be a bit of a misunderstanding of the point i was making. Im not saying sensible soccer 2006 looks better, im saying the style it uses lends itself better to the limited hardware.

When you try to make a game look realistic, like fifa, unless you pull it off it will look bad. I feel the match engine would be better if they made the game look good, not necessarily realistic.  Parkitect vs planet coaster is a prime example of what i mean by making the most out of your hardware restrictions. Parkitect looks great yet is probably less demanding then FM gpu wise.

 

Link to post
Share on other sites
16 hours ago, Mennox said:

After heavily playing FM17 since Beta release (hitting 100 hours), I watched the Wolves v Derby game on Sky today and my mind actually thought for the first few seconds it was one of my matches in FM17 (I am playing L1 atm)....its not about the graphics, but the ME has come along way over the last few years that it is now starting to resemble a real game, the way the players move and kick the ball, and the camera angles too. The first goal scored by Derby was actually quite similar to what I have seen ingame...looking forward to see how it progresses over the next few years!

This game is frustrating me a lot though as I am so obsessed that I havent touched Mafia in 3 weeks, only played an hour of Skyrim Special Edition and I am worried when I get my PS4 Pro on Thursday that I can t take myself away from this game...no other game in the series has got me this hooked!

I agree about the game views, yes the graphics could be improved but the ME is great for realistic action. I watch a lot a football live and time & time again you can spot the FM moves happening in real life. Well done SI

Link to post
Share on other sites
15 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Because R:TW isn't making the number of independant decisions & movements that FM is every second?

Its much more limited in its options leading to a much lower number of animations required.

Err, RTW more limited than FM?...  Historically, football simulators were little more than spreadsheet calculators; 2D graphics and more recently 3D were then later added. War simulations also use comparative data analytics (in army clashes and economic growth) but have always used open geographic maps since the beginning.  It's open fields versus fenced pitch.  I love FM but, as I watch the screens rolling, I still have than Excel-with-glitchy-graphics feeling... 

:sega:

Link to post
Share on other sites
1 minute ago, phd_angel said:

Err, RTW more limited than FM?...  Historically, football simulators were little more than spreadsheet calculators; 2D graphics and more recently 3D were then later added. War simulations also use comparative data analytics (in army clashes and economic growth) but have always used open geographic maps since the beginning.  It's open fields versus fenced pitch.  I love FM but, as I watch the screens rolling, I still have than Excel-with-glitchy-graphics feeling... 

:sega:

I don't think you understand just how in depth FM is tbh.

The ME calculates the movement and decisions of 22 players, the referee, linesman and the ball.  It then does that 8 times for every in game second (At least for FM16, I think it was increased for FM17) taking into account the decisions that went previously.

On top of that you have far more attributes for each player (both hidden & viewable), all 22 players are different and have different instructions.

In that regard things like RTW are much more limited as soldiers (Usually grouped) have more limited options (Movement + attack/defend/run) & far less attributes which leads to less calculations.  How many different movements does a pikeman do?  how many different attacks? how many choices does he make and how often?

Don't get me wrong I love the Total War series as well as the likes of Paradox games but as I understand it the FM ME is a different beast altogether.

Link to post
Share on other sites

We could wait another 5-10 years for the developers to add a few more animations and gradual additions to the 3D match experience and it probably still won't resemble a football match, or they could pass the 3D graphics creation over to FM players to mod them the way we want, as they have done with the other graphics within the game.

Link to post
Share on other sites
17 hours ago, Scatterbrook said:

We could wait another 5-10 years for the developers to add a few more animations and gradual additions to the 3D match experience and it probably still won't resemble a football match, or they could pass the 3D graphics creation over to FM players to mod them the way we want, as they have done with the other graphics within the game.

I don't think you can make the match engine player animations mod-able without revealing rather more about its internal workings than SI want to for competitive reasons.

(Stadiums, pitch colours, and kit styles might be different)

Link to post
Share on other sites

In my opinion the 3D graphics do exactly what they need to do and that is all that is required. Yes they could add more textures and more dynamic lighting etc. but that would then require a much bigger team and potentially lead to development time being taken away from other, far more important aspects of the game.

Link to post
Share on other sites

FM's graphics aren't that of FIFA or PES of course.   But FIFA and PES aren't proper football being played.    Play a 90 minute match of any of those 3, and only one will come back with anywhere near a realistic scoreline.   

 

SO for me, graphics are not a priority, its the ME realism.    Players gliding or not, as long as he marks properly, and heads the ball away when it comes near his head instead of it going straight through it... thumbs up from me

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think the ME has improved over the years but the area its still lagging is the goalkeepers. Especially 2nd balls. It's rare that a keeper will make a save and then pounce on a ball, or block the next shot. Keepers, stadiums and celebrations need to be improved.

Link to post
Share on other sites

From what I understand, the graphics that come with the FM match engine are SI's own proprietary graphics engine. It means for better or worse, SI get full control over where its going and what it focuses on developing, as well as not being potentially hit by any disputes or grievances further down the line. A lot of studios tend to use a third party engine, or are like EA where they ended up essentially having something of a superteam just to work on Frostbite for a huge array of its published titles.

When you're using a third party graphics engine, for whatever reason, you have to adapt your code to work with it. So all of a sudden, the FM match engine needs to be compatible with this new graphics engine rather than vice-versa. It runs the risk of having to strip out functionality if its not supported in this third party graphics engine.

Once you're using it you almost become in some ways beholden to that provider going forward, what happens if they move the goalposts or change the playing field? 

Some of the more notable engines out there right now in terms of Unreal come with a commission % attached I think, and Frostbite is just EA published titles only. There's a whole host out there, but if you plan on being around for years to come (as I imagine SI do) then having your own proprietary system is pretty much the best way to go, even if it takes some time to get it where you want it.

Link to post
Share on other sites

FM 3d graphics are good enough. If they improve too graphics like fifa or pes they will need a bigger team, meaning a more costly project.

FM already consume lot of memory because it load thousands of players, staff, etc. If they improve too much the graphic quality, 3d match playing will require lot of extra resources, demanding a more powerful computer, meaning a lower potential market and probably less sales.

The main market of FM is on a declining phase, offline gaming. The major share of games must have a strong multiplayer presence or they fail.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I dont think they should try and match fifa or pes graphics... it costs to much compared to the actual intention of what the game wants to be

Fm is a simulation of the job of a manager, the actual match is a small part in the entire game.

Also, nobody will buy fm for the graphics. thats what fifa and pes is for.

They buy it for the excellent simulation. if youwant to have an arcademanager game with shiny graphics. there is a mode in fifa that does this as  wel. if you want depth and a 'serious'game. its fm and no other.

 

Also, have you ever tried to watch a game of fifa entirely controlled by the AI? its boring, illogical and full of mistakes. so the ME is also flawed there. it is the human interaction wich is manipulating it into certain 'decision', reacting..

 

That beeing said, i do think they could spice up the graphics a bit more.... immersion wise.

Fans with actual flags , banners and sharps. In some countries with fireworks and stuff. Now its usually only one.

a more vivid sideline with press, teammembers, etc

Like if when they say it is really a living hell playing as a guest in  some stadiums, try to recreate this with small addons...

 

Just my take on the matter...

Link to post
Share on other sites

I like how it is now. I went from watching on 2D to now really enjoying the 3D view. What would be more immersive to me than better graphics is to have at least something resembling actual stadiums. I know this is probably not possible, but idk, maybe just include a bunch more generic ones that can more closely match actual stadiums.

Link to post
Share on other sites

I think FM17 is big improvement to the FM16 especially when the 3D is considered. So I'm hopeful about future, and as Miles has recently announced the number of 3D players is a lot more than it is thought, so FM does not mean only "2D".

 

Just small things would be nice too, such as more hair style & color options. I do not think these would increase the development phase/costs too much.

Link to post
Share on other sites

Archived

This topic is now archived and is closed to further replies.

  • Recently Browsing   0 members

    No registered users viewing this page.

×
×
  • Create New...