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The Addition of Dutch Lower Leagues (HELP thread)

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On 29-12-2016 at 14:11, Slabbekoorn said:

I edited the local regions, changed Noord-Holland into District West I added population and cities, next I deleted the Holland/population info for Utrecht but I could not delete the region in the editor, next I moved some cities from outside of their local region to the right district (Hillegom from South-Holland is in West I, Dordrecht from South-Holland is in Zuid I, Cuijk, Oss, Helmond from Noord-Brabant are in Zuid II, Flevoland is split into West I for Almere, Oost for Lelystad and Noord for Emmeloord) etc etc. The game uses this info only if you seperate teams using local regions and with reserves/u19s and the Dutch competitions are split into 6 anyways so it all works out fine.

The game is throwing some curveballs at me though, I ran a long-term file yesterday and the game stopped updating at 2020 but I've fixed the problem in the meantime. The relegation playoffs were too close to the season update day and the KNVB Beker voor Amateurs was in the way. I changed the Hoofd/Eerste Klasse promotion/relegation playoff into one with one match each round to save some time and I changed one KNVB Beker voor Amateurs date from saturday to wednesday and now it is fine.

It is necessary to delete the population from the local region? Just curious. And could mean I have to add population to an edit I am working on.

Edited by Wolf_pd

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I don't think you have to delete the population from the regions that you are removing but is not that difficult to do so I did it anyways. 

Adding population to the other regions is more important but it was more a rough guess than it was calculated. I just checked the bigger cities and added the half of the max number. And then readjusted to get 17 million people.

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10 hours ago, Slabbekoorn said:

I don't think you have to delete the population from the regions that you are removing but is not that difficult to do so I did it anyways. 

Adding population to the other regions is more important but it was more a rough guess than it was calculated. I just checked the bigger cities and added the half of the max number. And then readjusted to get 17 million people.

Adding population determines regens or something? In case you want to go for (admitted, it is overdoing it) realistic numbers, calculate the sum of the various municipalities.

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12 hours ago, Wolf_pd said:

Adding population determines regens or something? In case you want to go for (admitted, it is overdoing it) realistic numbers, calculate the sum of the various municipalities.

Yes I don't know what it is for either since the cities already have population set but the game draws most regens out of the local regions so it's better to be safe than sorrow. It took only 5 minutes anyways so it's no big deal.

I'm almost done with the file btw. I've added (generic) stadiums for all Eerste Klasse teams that were missing one (102 to be precise) and now I will have to test how the reserves get drawn. I'll add the correct names in a future update.

I also added and changed every team's local regions. I had to change some since the Hoofdklasse Zaterdag A/B are an east/west split instead of a north/south split like the Hoofdklasse Zondag A/B.

I also changed team reputations in every division because some Derde Divisie teams had a lower rep than some Eerste Klasse teams. Jong Ajax/PSV have a higher rep (and I also found out that we can change custom added B-team's info since the update and that is great so I also changef AFC 2 and Westlandia 2).

I also adjusted some youth facilities etc for realistic regens especially for amateurs (like AFC, Alphense Boys for example that have good u19s irl) that won't have a fantastic PA but a higher CA to make it more realistic.

So now I'll test the file to see how everything goes and if it updates past ~2024.

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Why past 2024? Is that just a number you use for a save amount of years, or does something happen in 2024?

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No its just a number to check a long-term file. Earlier versions would not update after 2021 but I fixed that problem and I'm now at 2020 and all is good.

Reserves are tested and looking great btw. 

I'm polishing the file now. Maybe I'm going to add the Marleveld u19s pre-season tournament just to show off:p Shouldn't take up much time anyways.

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This week i've comleted the kits for the Noord 1e klasse. I'm now working on the oost teams. It's going to take some time to finish the eerste klasse but it gets along quite well.

 

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Nice, great work. Btw you don't have to create them for AFC 2 in Eerste Klasse Zaterdag West I because I deleted that team and added them through AFC reserves.

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Ok thanks. The away kits are sometimes a pain. But through local media it can be done.

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I just looked at that Marveld tournament. That would be a great addition :)

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I've made my last edits. Changed every team's six-letter name, added sponsor money for each club, added some missing (and lower league) derbies and club rivalries, added/deleted club affiliates and made Holland transfer preference edits (added belgium and scandinavia).

I had to delete the Marveld tournament because the file is cropped as it is. I will add it using a seperate file as I'll do with the Premier League International Cup and the La Peronne Cup.

So now I'll make one final testrun until 2024 and then I will finally upload the file!

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That sounds great!! I'm really looking forward to this file and to start a save in the Dutch lower leagues :) 

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2 hours ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Have fun! Don't forget to download Etzella's kit files, I'm finally starting a save file and I'm leaning towards VC Vlissingen.

 

Dutch Pyramid v3.0.fmf

Gonna give this one a try too. What I forgot to ask you: did the teams hold their right competitions during your testrun until 2024, or was there a big resuffle going on?

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1 hour ago, Tobcoach said:

Gonna give this one a try too. What I forgot to ask you: did the teams hold their right competitions during your testrun until 2024, or was there a big resuffle going on?

Luckily ther are no big reshuffles. SI has fixed this problem pretty good. But if 4 sunday teams relegate from the Tweede Divisie then the Derde Divisie will have some shuffling teams (they don't reshuffle each year so the same teams stay in the other division)  but if the saturday/sunday teams are even numbered again then they all will ga back to the right division.

The regional divisions will have the highest priority and next are the competition boundraries. Ajax Amateurs are quite often found in Zondag north-east instead of Zaterdag west but that is because there are a lot of saturday west teams in the game so Ajax Amateurs move because of the boundraries.

Long story short: they work pretty good, not perfect but that is impossible with leagues that have a fixed number of teams.

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Great to hear Slabbekoorn!

Thanks for all the work you did with this file :) :thup:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what is the "official file" to use? I guess it is the 3.0 version you posted today.
The topic in the download forum had no update since version 2.5 on novermber 19th, when I look in the opening post.

Edited by Jorgen

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10 hours ago, Jorgen said:

Great to hear Slabbekoorn!

Thanks for all the work you did with this file :) :thup:

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what is the "official file" to use? I guess it is the 3.0 version you posted today.
The topic in the download forum had no update since version 2.5 on novermber 19th, when I look in the opening post.

Yeah I know, I still have to summarize everything I've done and then I'll also post it there.

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Marveld will be played in may, I'll also make the La Peronne Cup that is the pre-season french u19s that's played in august and I've already finished the Premier League International Cup that I'll post next week.

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The 3.1 version will be online soon, I've added a winterbreak where players will go on holiday. It's not a big change but great if you have a busy season. I also added the option for clubs to give players amateur contracts since it was not in the game yet and clubs do give amateur contracts irl so it's great if you want to have some talents but don't have the money to hand out a lot of full-time contracts (or semi-pro for semi-pro clubs). And this update will have Etzella's kits integrated.

Then 3.2 version will be the same as 3.1 but imported to SI's winterbreak database.

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@Wolf_pd

I checked the KNVB District map and checked them with the Dutch municipalities and collected the cities/municipalities that are set in a different district than the province normally would.

Utrecht -> West II
Woerden
Oudewater
Lopik

Zuid-Holland -> West I
Hillegom

Flevoland -> West I
Almere

Flevoland -> Oost
Zeewolde
Lelystad
Dronten

Flevoland -> Noord
Noord-Oostpolder
Urk

Zuid-Holland -> Zuid I
Overlakkee
Dordrecht
Dirksland
Papendrecht
Alblasserdam
Molenwaard
Sliedrecht
Giessendam
Giessenlanden
Gorinchem
Leerdam
Zederik

Gelderland -> Zuid I
Lingewaal
Zaltbommel
Geldermalsen
Culemborg
Neerijnen
Tiel
Maasdriel

Noord Brabant -> Zuid II
Oss
Maasdonk
Bernhaze
Schijndel
St oudenrode
Son & bruegel
Nuenen
Geldrop
Cranendonk
Someren

(And every village to the right of this Zuid I/Zuid II border)

Overijssel -> Noord
Steenwijkerland (Steenwijk)
Staphorst
Zwartewaterland
Genemuiden
Vollehoven
Zwartsluis

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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This should be written in Database and Research Issues if all data are from default database.

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Well SI uses all Dutch provinces as local regions but I and Wolf_PD made them like the KNVB divided Holland in 6 districts and we use it for the local regions.

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Thanks. Appreciated!

Since I am from Geldrop, I know that the ones around and between Eindhoven and Helmond (Nuenen, Geldrop, Son en Bruegel) change a bit from year to year. The border between Zuid I and II is usually depends on how much clubs from Limburg are on which level, but that is impossible to implement. The same applies for Someren and to a less extent Cranendonck. Every year there is a lot of moaning in the newspapers about the division.

 

Edited by Wolf_pd

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The file is almost done. I've had some errors regarding a team that was in Eerste Klasse that the editor and game were not responding well too and that was my AFC 2 (Eerste Klasse Zaterdag West I) that I added as B-team to AFC (Tweede Divisie), probably due to the updates. I removed the problem by removing it and adding a new one again.

Next there was a problem in the relegation playoffs which I had to redo again for Hoofdklasse to Eerste Klasse but that's fixed now. And I also changed the relegation team draws and will post how I did it. The right way for Dutch teams to draw the teams is (for Eredivisie) when the lowest 4 of the eight qualified Jupiler teams go into the first quarter final of Eredivisie playoff, those winners will play against the Eredivisie teams that landed in the relegation spots and finally taking it up against the remaning 2 teams (that also had a round in the playoff). It also is not correct in the standard game if you load up the Eredivisie in Editor Data. So to get the right result you'll need this:

In stage (relegation playoff):
General -> tick "reverse teams"
General -> Sort Teams -> Seeding (ascending)

Teams -> "get qualified teams from Jupiler League" add stage name that hands out playoff in JL (mine was promotion playoff), tick reverse teams and be sure that the second box is unticked and the main part is "team seeding" -> give all teams same seed -> 1

Do the same for Eredivisie but give them seed 0
(plus don't forget to add "add top playoff teams if division below is inactive" for the Jupiler League and add team seed of 1)

Round default -> chose draw rules
select "Fixed draw (1v2, 3v4 etc.)" and the most important is "Seeded Draw"

You can apply these techniques to every (Dutch) league if you want the same results.

Now my last error I got, well not an error but a mistake I got was that the European Playoffs were given kinda randomly and that is also in the 3.0 version (just like the relegation playoff). I fixed it by changing Eredivisie rules from "Edited Rules override rules in code" to "Combine rules with rules in code". I also ticked the "get continental teams from this stage" to be sure, With these combined rules I could change the European places playoff for the Eredivisie (last European ticket is awarded from a playoff), last year that default was place 5 to 8 but Holland last a ticket so it should be place 4 to 7 now. I changed it by going to Eredivisie -> stage 0 (league stage) -> qualification rules -> set the qualification for "European playoff stage" and top team qualified for playoff was -1 just like bottom ranked team and because of the hardcoded rules and the -1 now the Eredivisie European playoff will change accordingly with the amount of tickets Holland has gotten. But I'm running into some trouble with this playoff since the winner should get the ticket but it does not get the ticket at all which is weird. I tried setting ranking levels but I can't because the playoff places are awarded through the amount of tickets Holland has. If Holland has 7 tickets then (1 ticket goes to cup winner) place 6-9 will get in the playoff, if Holland has 6 tickets then place 5-8 will qualify for playoff, if Holland has 5 tickets then place 4-7 will go in playoff. So I might just delete this playoff overall until I found the solution.
 

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I'm going to add the new rules in future updates. I just figured out how to change the number of teams throughout the seasons and will explain down here (plus an example fmf file).

So in my file I used the following set ups:
- In the first season 2016-2017 I had a normal season with 18 teams in the Eredivisie and a simple relegation rule that 1 team relegates to the Jupiler League
- The second season 2017-2018 is also a season with 18 teams but it is the season before the league gets smaller so instead of 1 relegated team I created 3 relegated teams
- The third season of 2018-2019 is the season where the changes are having affect and the league has 16 teams instead of 18.
- The Jupiler League will keep its 20 teams throughout the seasons so in 2017-2018 two extra teams will be relegated to the inactive division below (Tweede Divisie)

So you create the rules like you normally would and convert to advanced rules. Now copy each league (except the inactive one ofcourse) so that you have 3x the same league in the Editor, one will be for the first season, one for the second season (the season before the change) and one will be the third season that will be the new ongoing league system.

 


First season (2016-2017)
In the first season of 2016-2017 you go to your original league (in my case Eredivisie):
Eredivisie -> Competition -> "base year" 2016, "start year" 2016 and "end year" 2016. The end year is the year where the start of that season begins, so in my case 2016 because the 2016-2017 league starts in 2016. 

Then in the normal stage I have the same number of teams relegated like always (1 in my case).

Do the same for the division below.

 


Second season (2017-2018), the year before the change
Go to your first copy of your league:
Eredivisie -> Competition -> "base year" 2017, "start year" 2017 and "end year" 2017. Just the same like you would do in the original first season. (Also do this for the division below)

In this league you already set the league up for next year, so in order to do that you need to insert a number at:
Eredivisie -> Competition -> (tick the box) "Number of extra teams to be promoted" (it's halfway down the page) and give it the number of teams that you want the league to change next season. In my case I wanted the league to go from 18 to 16 teams the next year, so that gives us the number -2. Now you don't have to add this to the league below the Eredivisie, it's only about the promoted teams for some reason and I don't know why. If you do get some "number of promoted/relegated rules" error then you'll have to go to this option and mess around with it.

Because I want to change the number of teams from 18 to 16 that means that I want to relegate 3 teams instead of 1 (and the JL still has one promotion place for the champion so the math adds up), so I go to:
Eredivisie -> Stages -> Stage 0 -> League Settings -> (tick the box) "relegation rules" -> "Number Of Relegation Places" is 3 like I mentioned above and they relegate to the division below. (I also did this for the division below so that division will keep the same teams in the league which is 20 in my files)

And thats it for this season, now you made sure that more teams than usual will relegate because of this, ofcourse you can also set up a specific playoff for this league like you normally would want for this to happen.

 

 

Third season (2018-2019 and after that), the year where the number of teams change
Go to your third and last copy of your league:
Eredivisie -> Competition -> "base year" 2018, "start year" 2018 and "end year" you leave this blank. (also do this for the division below)

Now in this league you change the number teams, you don't have to have more promotion places and you can change the relegation rules back to how you want.
Eredivisie -> Stages -> Stage 0 -> General -> "number of teams" 16.


 

Now for the last part you need to go to your nation rules, in my case Holland
Holland -> Required Teams -> set the minimum (16) and maximum (18) for Eredivisie, set 20 for Jupiler League and set an nice window for your last inactive division (2-200 always works for me but it depends on how much teams you think that it will have).

 

So I hope you all understand it a bit, I'll post this in the editor file examples topic too tomorrow. I know that I'm going to have a blast with this for sure.

 

League with different number of teams throughout the seasons.fmf

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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I am using your editor file -  Nice for FC Groningen (trying to move the reserved up to the eerste divisie).  With the orinial save my reserve team could only play friendly matches..   Not sure it's because of your editor, but there are no more play-offs for the Europa league.  Ajax got 4th place, and are not playing in the Europa league.   Holland moved down in the ranks for europe spots (2 teams in the champsleague play-in games) but still 4 teams for the Europa league. 

Standings Eredivisie:
1. FC Groningen

2. PSV

3. SC Heerenveen

4. Ajax

Cup final:  PSV beating FC Groningen

FC Groningen and PSV got in the Championsleague qualifications,  but only Heerenveen made it in to the Europa league...  

Is this because of the edt file or a FM17 bug? 

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Cool stuff with the changing teamcount for Eredivisie. Is that in the version 3.X (or 4.X) you will release or a little side hobby?

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@Holland98

What version are using? I had some problems with qualifiers but fixed it quickly and the fixed file is that one that is in my edited post in the other thread. I will look into it anyways. It's more likely a bug but it's caused by the big number of edits that the file has. And also the reason that I'm creating version 4.0.

@Wolf_pd

I'm creating the 4.0 and will add the KNVB's decisions that they make in may. So if they want to change league size then I'll add it to the file so we can get a dynamic system just like irl. The upcoming and possible upcoming changes are listed in the other thread.

I posted the explanation here for all the other editors so they can learn how to do it. I could keep it to myself but what's the fun in that? It is easier then it looks like, but the key is finding out how to do it.;)

 

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I'm sorry for the inconvinience, I was aware of the problem before where random teams were receiving European spots and was under the impression that I fixed it but apparently I didn't as I can see now. The thing is that I create, adjust and test each single division myself incl holidaying for ~8 in-game years as I have no playtesters so errors like this are inevitable.

I will look into the problem tonight and hopefully it will be fixed for the 3.1 version.

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The file is already done and I'm playtesting it now but the rules give a good signal. KNVB Beker gives Europa League qualification, the rest of the spots are allocated through the Eredivisie .

I also added the changes for the KNVB Beker for 2017-2018 (3 out of 12 and 1 extra time sub that they are going to add and the qualifying rounds for amateurs are drawn regionally) and the 2018 changes to the Johan Cruijf Schaal that will be played in the stadium of either the division or cup winner. I chose cup winner because league winners are generally stronger than cup winners so the home advantage evens it out a little. But thats my interpretation, if you want to see it differently then I'm open for discussion. I'm trying to get the Dutchies more active on this matter because now this topic is just my mémoire where I post my ramblings.:D

@Wolf_pd
Did you btw file your competition in the bugs section of the forum? I don't know if you already did but if you didn't then I'll probably holiday to 2050. If you could post it then it would help me out to get things sorted for other users of the file.

 

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I think it will be a hell of a challenge to get the new rules regarding the Jong-teams into the game. The KNVB has proposed to set the maximum number of Jong-teams per competition to 4 as of season 2018/2019. I assume that the 4th Jong-team per competition will be relegated and the 1st Jong-team will get a promotion (except from Eerste Divisie to Eredivisie and in case the A-team drops to the competition in which the Jong-team plays. In that case the Jong-team is automatically relegated). And the KNVB has stated that Jong-teams of professional clubs that haven't entered the piramid yet, would be granted a start as high as 3e Divisie or Hoofdklasse. Until now, new Jong-teams had to start all the way down the piramid.

It probably requires two or more hidden stages to determine the relegated teams. One hidden stage for the regular teams, and at least one hidden stage for the Jong-teams.

I'm trying to get to grips with this issue, but still haven't found the best way to get this into the game.

On a different note: my own database with 10 tiers of Dutch football is done, and works like a charm. It's a mix between the real life piramid and some fantasy elements (such as a League-cup) but people doesn't seem to mind that. I haven't released the database on this forum yet, because I still need to see what havoc the 17.3.0 update has wreaked to my database. Bit nervous to open the database with the editor...

Edited by Tobcoach

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We still dont know the exact plans since there are two versions and the KNVB hasn't released anything official other then that they are going to talk about it this month, but I also saw it and that is going to be a pain. Krljenjushka's thread is going to help us with this problem and otherwise we can ask him ourselves since he is way better then me anyways and he's helped me so much and open for questions etc. This thread will help us:

I haven't tackled the problem yet but it is possible because we can sort B-teams easily when selecting teams and thus create an hidden stage, we have to give every league an hidden B-team stage and then we need to use "other league fate" which can let us relegate teams even if they finished 10th or something. same goes for promotion. make those hidden stages with 4 teams, if one relegates normally then that league will have 3 teams and we tick the box "don't add stage if not enough teams" which will make the normal rules apply and another team can promote freely. The difficult part lies in the situation when two B-teams from the Derde Divisie promote through playoffs and then we have to schedule an extra playoff match to decide which team gets promoted. This can also give those annoying season update problems.

Let's hope they decide otherwise.:D

Btw, the 3.0 update did not mess up may nation rules so that's a plus.

 

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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21 hours ago, Slabbekoorn said:


Did you btw file your competition in the bugs section of the forum? I don't know if you already did but if you didn't then I'll probably holiday to 2050. If you could post it then it would help me out to get things sorted for other users of the file.

 

I forgot, apologies for that. I have managed to have a few holidays beyond 2100, so it's not a persistent error.

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23 hours ago, Reddiablo said:

Legend!!!!

Thank you.

You can upload it here again, then I'll verify it, test it and upload it as the 3.2 version.

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Thanks, I will start to work on it tomorrow and I'll have it ready in the weekend. Your file is called 3.0 but you did use my 3.1 (new) file right? Just to be sure.

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On 22-3-2017 at 12:24, Reddiablo said:

Here it is. Have made a bunch of data adjustments. Transfers, but also contract renewals of eg. Schone, El Ahmadi as well as a few player changes and manager adjustments

FM Nederand FM2017 Update 3.0_B5E3FB65-AE9B-4896-967A-9EE8AD3879D5.fmf

 

On 22-3-2017 at 17:54, Slabbekoorn said:

Thanks, I will start to work on it tomorrow and I'll have it ready in the weekend. Your file is called 3.0 but you did use my 3.1 (new) file right? Just to be sure.

So which file do I use? Can I start with Reddiablo's fmf file, or do we need to wait for something else?
No pressure, no worries, by the way. :thup: Just trying to find out, if I need to wait, or can start already.

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I haven't released the file yet. It's not ready because I've had other things to do. Don't worry since I haven't forgotten it.;)

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I tried the 3.1 file. I notice that the lowest active divisions don't relegate to the Lower Division (Lagere Divisies). Also, very often, the U19s/Reserves leagues still have fixtures even though the main team has been done playing the league for weeks. I find that the U19s structure very complicated too. I had thought that it would follow the usual FM model where the league models the main squad's division, starts roughly at the same time or before the main squad and ends up roughly before the main squad is done playing the league (minus the playoffs). I say that because after doing a season (Koninklijke HFC, Tweede Divisie) where I was done in early May with the league, my players wouldn't go on holiday at the very least until my U19s were done with their league... which ends almost in early June despite there being only 10 teams in the league. Meanwhile, Ajax wasn't on holiday either and with that complicated U19s structure, their U19s were done with their league... in March.

EDIT: Actually my players had to wait for the league to be officially over on June 2nd to enjoy their holidays. I haven't seen that in leagues with playoffs elsewhere: generally, all the teams not concerned by the playoffs would go on holiday. It's the case in Bundesliga for example (unless the team is concerned by the CL/EL or/and the Pokal final).

Not sure if I made myself clear here, but overall I think that in a quest to achieve "realism", some points of this database made the game unpractical to play. Perhaps some more pragmatic answers and setups could be considered.

Edited by BMNJohn

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Thanks for your feedback @BMNJohn, I really appreciate it and I will look into those problems. Player holidays are one of my main issues that I can't seem to get a grip on. I'm also still learning while I'm creating the files. There's hardly any help because it is really complicated.

But it is correct that nobody relegates from the Eerste Klasse because I haven't created the Tweede Klasse yet. My file was originally until the Hoofdklasse and the Eerste Klasse was actually not active but some people asked for it and I just added it as a bonus so to speak. 

 

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11 hours ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Thanks for your feedback @BMNJohn, I really appreciate it and I will look into those problems. Player holidays are one of my main issues that I can't seem to get a grip on. I'm also still learning while I'm creating the files. There's hardly any help because it is really complicated.

But it is correct that nobody relegates from the Eerste Klasse because I haven't created the Tweede Klasse yet. My file was originally until the Hoofdklasse and the Eerste Klasse was actually not active but some people asked for it and I just added it as a bonus so to speak. 

 

From my experiments creating completely custom databases, this kind of issues comes from some competitions interfering with holidaying. If the team or part of the team is still supposed to play a match, the whole squad stays. It can be CL/EL finals (obviously), cup ties, U19s, Reserves, poor end date for the stage the team is in even if there aren't any more matches left, so on so forth. This probably won't be anything new for you, but it is why I generally do as much as I can in terms of rules and settings before entering Advanced Mode and only tweak the fine details in Advanced Mode. Advanced Mode isn't straightforward and it makes it pretty difficult to diagnose something wrong with the database.

When I'm really stumped, I just wipe everything and redo it from the ground up. :lol: When an error's cause is buried that deeply into the data, I don't bother finding it because it's hell to do in Advanced Mode.

Edited by BMNJohn

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Its actually not a bad idea. I'll create a new league in normal mode, then I'll go to advanced rules and compare that file with my own. This way I can compare.

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