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The Addition of Dutch Lower Leagues (HELP thread)

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13 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Ok, I already posted it. I'll also report an Editor bug because we can't really change Tax rules but I managed to do so by going to the FM2015 editor, add the tax rules in an extinct country (east germany), also for some reason I needed to divide the amounts by 0.86291 because otherwise the ammounts would not be imported correctly. Imported it into FM2017 editor, copied using the edit button. cleared the Holland Tax Rules data, pasted the data from E Germany, went back to the east Germany and cleared the Tax Rules.

You're not making it easy for me, lol. But I managed.

Here's the download. Unfortunately I don't think it's possible to merge data but you could always try. 

Dutch Tax Rules 2016.fmf

Awesome, nice job! Don't think I can merge (not possible in advanced rules, and going back to basic is suicide, haha).

But doesn't matter, just load this file too. Once I release my file, I'll add that one too in the zip file.

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5 hours ago, Karld50 said:

Completely agree with this! Ever since the creation of the topklasse I've wanted to do a Dutch lower league challenge but have nowhere near the knowledge to be able to do the work you guys have done! Great work so far and thanks for all your efforts!

My one query is how will club affiliates work in the game? To my knowledge teams like feyenoord amateurs have no link to the professional club in regards to loaning players so how will it effect the game in regards to applying for parent clubs from the same region or just eerste divisie teams who have reserves they want to loan out? Thanks

It does not effect them whatsoever because the 'loan players' box stays unticked.

@CrowBar

Nice, I have a logo pack somewhere for Holland (not mine btw). I don't know if SI changed the unique IDs of the clubs in FM2016 or 2017. Otherwise we could add it (I should be able to find the link again) .

But were you able to fix the Derde Divisie periods?

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13 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

It does not effect them whatsoever because the 'loan players' box stays unticked.

@CrowBar

Nice, I have a logo pack somewhere for Holland (not mine btw). I don't know if SI changed the unique IDs of the clubs in FM2016 or 2017. Otherwise we could add it (I should be able to find the link again) .

But were you able to fix the Derde Divisie periods?

I use the "Standard Logos Megapack" from FM Scout, which does contains all of the needed Holland logos, at least all from active divisions. Doesn't contain all from the lower league clubs (which isn't really needed, but that is personal preference), but if needed I also have a gigantic logo pack (from the Project Holland pack back in FM 14).

Yes, I fixed the periods, it's working:

Naamloos.jpgNaamloos.jpg

Edited by CrowBar

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Perfect, really I have nothing else to say, you're a beast!:D And it was indeed the Project Holland 2014 Logo Pack I was talking about.

As a side note, I don't really know if we want to keep the Tweede Divisie etc youth contract types. Probably personal preference but we can discuss it.

Edit: btw shouldn't the Tweede and Derde Divisie yellow cards ban rules go like this: 5,6,7,8,9,10 etc instead of 5,7,9,11 etc?

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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1 minute ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Perfect, really I have nothing else to say, you're a beast!:D And it was indeed the Project Holland 2014 Logo Pack I was talking about.

As a side note, I don't really know if we want to keep the Tweede Divisie etc youth contract types. Probably personal preference but we can discuss it.

Yeah, not entirely sure about that yet.

By the way, I remember you mentioned having difficulties being able to make the nr. 2 in a period win the spot for the playoff when the nr.1 already did win a period? Any clues if that might be possible now in FM 17?

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32 minutes ago, CrowBar said:

Yeah, not entirely sure about that yet.

By the way, I remember you mentioned having difficulties being able to make the nr. 2 in a period win the spot for the playoff when the nr.1 already did win a period? Any clues if that might be possible now in FM 17?

I haven't compared the custom periods with the default Jupiler League one so I'll do that tomorrow. That's the only way to confirm.

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Sorry for the double post. But I already compared the leagues. Found the following mistakes (on my side):

Tweede Divisie/Derde Divisie/Hoofdklasse -> Stage 1 rlpl (Cup)-> General, tick reverse teams box

Derde Divisie/Hoofdklasse -> Stage 1 Peri -> League Settings (all groups) -> League Fate Actions
I missed the second 'Set other league fate', copy it but change Stage 0 into Stage 1

Maybe it is the last one, I can't verify yet. I'll run a game tomorrow.

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34 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Sorry for the double post. But I already compared the leagues. Found the following mistakes (on my side):

Tweede Divisie/Derde Divisie/Hoofdklasse -> Stage 1 rlpl (Cup)-> General, tick reverse teams box

Derde Divisie/Hoofdklasse -> Stage 1 Peri -> League Settings (all groups) -> League Fate Actions
I missed the second 'Set other league fate', copy it but change Stage 0 into Stage 1

Maybe it is the last one, I can't verify yet. I'll run a game tomorrow.

Thanks, I'll change it.

Edit: I found this: http://www.voetbalopzaterdag.com/pd/1a/PD-regeling

That set-up is so interesting (also because there are 11 eerste klasse with only 4 hoofdklasses), my hands are itching to see if I can add it to the game aswell with a fully functional Eerste Klasse.

Edited by CrowBar

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31 minutes ago, CrowBar said:

Thanks, I'll change it.

Edit: I found this: http://www.voetbalopzaterdag.com/pd/1a/PD-regeling

That set-up is so interesting (also because there are 11 eerste klasse with only 4 hoofdklasses), my hands are itching to see if I can add it to the game aswell with a fully functional Eerste Klasse.

You have to look out tho, adding too much leagues in one nation can mess up the game while playing. But I won't stop you from adding it. 

If you add it we can als consider and try to figure out the Districtbekers. Qualifying would be the same like normal leagues/cups qualify for European matches.

But we also have to finish it in time for Reddiablo.

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You're right. I'll probably do a quick long run test and upload it here tomorrow. Probably best anyhow. It is functional as of now. It is a good basis to build on. It has all that is needed to play and with a decent sense of realism, I think. All the clubs have the correct stadiums where I could find, the basic competition history is there for each one. I fixed some clubs with wrong city, some were pointing to the District (gemeente) instead of the city/village (SteDoCo for example).

And then all the other stuff I could add later without any stress to reach a deadline:-). That would probably be the correct kits (not gfx files, I mean the editor kit colours), correct consistent club names (I don't like the way the club names in the Netherlands are not in a consistent format), 1e klasse, maybe districtsbeker too. But depends on how it goes really.  

Edited by CrowBar

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Wonderful.   Yes. the Club Names bother me as well - for some reason some licensing person decided this would be a great solution. While it is pretty accurate on an "encyclopedic" type of fashion, it should be more cosmetic than it is now.

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But can we edit the club names? I haven't tested it yet but I saw someone on this forum not able to edit them. 

I personally don't like a lot of JL names. Almere City is only called Almere, FC Eindhoven does not have FC in its name etc.

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Just now, Slabbekoorn said:

But can we edit the club names? I haven't tested it yet but I saw someone on this forum not able to edit them. 

I personally don't like a lot of JL names. Almere City is only called Almere, FC Eindhoven does not have FC in its name etc.

No, you can't from the editor that I know of.  I agree... Roda Kerkrade, but then they use the full names during the match game play as well- so you get Roda Juliana Combinatie Kerkrad (the e doesn't fit) or player comes on for Football Club Groningen....    Not something that I favour either.

I think it has to be done via a separate file, like how people change INTER into Inter etc.

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1 minute ago, Reddiablo said:

No, you can't from the editor that I know of.  I agree... Roda Kerkrade, but then they use the full names during the match game play as well- so you get Roda Juliana Combinatie Kerkrad (the e doesn't fit) or player comes on for Football Club Groningen....    Not something that I favour either.

I think it has to be done via a separate file, like how people change INTER into Inter etc.

Thats weird. Maybe changing it in an older FM editor and importing the file will work? Otherwise we could try saving as xml and edit in notepad.

Now that I think of it, I can try to copy/paste my created tax rules through the xml files to get rid of that extra editor file.

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You can change fullnames and short names, mind you... But somehow they have included other long names.

So you get fullname

FC Utrecht (changeable)

Not directly changeable full name

Football Club Utrecht

 

 

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Yes, I meant the short & full names. Changing Almere to Almere City FC, Emmen to FC Emmen, Katwijk to vv Katwijk etc. This can be corrected in the editor.

But I haven't seen the things which you both mentioned ingame, " Roda Juliana Combinatie Kerkrad". Maybe because I have been using the Sortioutsi mod to fix the names and stuff? I don't get any weird long names. I don't know what the default situation is, as I never started a game without the fix/mod.
Every year I use that file. Look it up on google, can't give the link (not allowed).

 

Edited by CrowBar

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I use it too, but I had a fun season that I took over from the beta and that still has the original names

 

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I have a question though, does anyone know how it is possible that the KNVB lets 11 eerste klasse champions promote to the Hoofdklasse? http://www.knvb.nl/downloads/bestand/5766/knvb-pd-regelingen-mannen-zaterdag-t-m-2e-klasse

8 Hoofdklasse teams have automatic relegation, which means there are only 8 spots for the 11 champions? How is this possible? The KNVB rules don't explain how they intend to fix the issue with uneven teams.

I am not talking about the playoff promotion-relegation set-up, because that is a different matter.

Edited by CrowBar

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1 hour ago, CrowBar said:

Here is the file with the latest version (together with the tax changes by Slabbekoorn), functional til Hoofdklasse.

http://www38.zippyshare.com/v/KBDPeFXh/file.html

I have a question though, does anyone know how it is possible that the KNVB lets 11 eerste klasse champions promote to the Hoofdklasse? http://www.knvb.nl/downloads/bestand/5766/knvb-pd-regelingen-mannen-zaterdag-t-m-2e-klasse

8 Hoofdklasse teams have automatic relegation, which means there are only 8 spots for the 11 champions? How is this possible? The KNVB rules don't explain how they intend to fix the issue with uneven teams.

I am not talking about the playoff promotion-relegation set-up, because that is a different matter.

Cool man thanks, I'll check it one last time for errors. 

The rules are explained on wikipedia. Hoofdklasse has 8 automatic relegation places and 8 relegation playoff places. Eerste klasse have 11 automatic promotion placed 3 teams each klasse in promotion playoff 33 total. Now for simple maths:

8 relegation minus 11 promotion is -3. 

The promotion play-off takes the hit. 8 relegation places and 33 promotion places fight for 8 minus 3 spots.

So in the end only 5 of the 41 teams can win a place for hoofdklasse through the play-off.

https://nl.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hoofdklasse_(Nederlands_amateurvoetbal)

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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Ah, I see. I have a feeling it is somewhat impossible to create that in the editor. I have a feeling the editor will have trouble seeing 8 automatic relegation spots and 11 automatic promotion, and compare it with the play-off.

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Few issues

- The file is not verified by default when I load it in my editor.

- Don't forget to rename the cups. Dutch Cup is called ; KNVB Beker', Dutch Super Cup is 'Johan Cruijff Schaal'.

- You have the KNVB rounds teams not set right, First Round has to have 64 teams not 128, Second Round has to have 32 teams not 64. The best option should be if you change the first round into the third qualifying round (add the round in the fixture dates) and make that third qualifying round not available on television and the date could be a week later (31st of August).

- The First and Second round of the KNVB Beker need a stage flag (go to General -> Draw Rules -> tick the box -> select 'lower division team plays at home if outside of top 2 divisions'.

- I don't know if there is a way to make sure that teams that play in European competitions can't draw eachother in the First and Second round but I can't see the option.

- It seems like you didn't add the things from the following post?

17 hours ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Sorry for the double post. But I already compared the leagues. Found the following mistakes (on my side):

Tweede Divisie/Derde Divisie/Hoofdklasse -> Stage 1 rlpl (Cup)-> General, tick reverse teams box

Derde Divisie/Hoofdklasse -> Stage 1 Peri -> League Settings (all groups) -> League Fate Actions
I missed the second 'Set other league fate', copy it but change Stage 0 into Stage 1

Maybe it is the last one, I can't verify yet. I'll run a game tomorrow.

- Also can't seem to find the individual group rules for Derde Divisie Zaterdag/Zondag so I don't know how you fixed the period problem (with minimum 12 games in the first period).

Nitpicking:

The files in the editor have long names with random letters and numbers, you can rename the files like you would do with every file and can get rid of those extra letters and numbers. It'll look a bit cleaner.:D

Edit:

Adding those rules is possible but really dificult to do now we're already in advanced rules. In basic rules you can add the relegation playoff, 8 from this division, 33 from division lower and then relegate 3 extra teams (so 36) relegated teams from the play-off

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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Alright, I'll fix the things you mentioned first.

I think I accidently uploaded a previous version, because I did fix a lot of things you mentioned. Oops.

Edited by CrowBar

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Ok that explains a lot, no problem tho. Also don't forget to copy this into the individual group rules of the Dutch periods as well:

"Derde Divisie/Hoofdklasse -> Stage 1 Peri -> League Settings (all groups) -> League Fate Actions
I missed the second 'Set other league fate', copy it but change Stage 0 into Stage 1"

But I think that we're done after that you've changed it, you did it really fast. It's been only a week since FM2017 is out and it's already completed, really great work as my original file was still a rough prototype with quite some mistakes on my side (although I couldn't do anything about the league dates as they weren't given at the time I was creating the file:D). 

And I'm now reinstalling FM2017 and the editor because I kept receiving those stupid promotion/relegation errors even though everything was correct...

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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Great stuff reading this. Gonna be even better playing.

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21 hours ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Edit: btw shouldn't the Tweede and Derde Divisie yellow cards ban rules go like this: 5,6,7,8,9,10 etc instead of 5,7,9,11 etc?

@CrowBar Have you checked/changed this? Just to be sure it's completely done when you're uploading it.;)

I'm still having verifying issues after reinstall. Only thing that seems to fix it is when I verify each competion one by one, if I get an error then I have to save, exit and verify again. Verifying is taking up a lot of time. And the issue lies between promotion/relegation of the Eredivisie/Jupiler League even if those two leagues are verified...

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7 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

@CrowBar Have you checked/changed this? Just to be sure it's completely done when you're uploading it.;)

I'm still having verifying issues after reinstall. Only thing that seems to fix it is when I verify each competion one by one, if I get an error then I have to save, exit and verify again. Verifying is taking up a lot of time. And the issue lies between promotion/relegation of the Eredivisie/Jupiler League even if those two leagues are verified...

According to: http://www.knvb.nl/downloads/bestand/1904/handboek-competitiezaken-av-veld-tuchtzaken

It is 5,7,9,11,12,13,etc in real life. But I chose 5,7,9,11 because it was was the closest one. See page 5 of the manual concerning Tweede & Derde Divisie.

Edited by CrowBar

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This should be all, I hope there are no issues I forgot about.

Edited by CrowBar

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"Jupiler League -> Competition -> Should Play on International Match Days -> untick the box"

You should check the first box but the second box should be unchecked.

- Dutch Cup and Dutch Super Cup need to be renamed to KNVB Beker and Johan Cruijff Schaal

- KNVB Beker -> Stage 0 -> Rounds -> Round 4 (first round), you accidently hit a flag to much. You need to remove the top placed one (lower division team plays at home)

- Shouldn't we remove contract types of Tweede/Derde Divisie and Hoofdklasses?

- Holland -> Fixture Rules -> Rules 0, untick 'squad selection eligibility' and 'squad registration periods'.

- Holland -> Fixture Rules -> Rules 4, tick the 'youth contract players can play in fixture' (probably an oversight)

 

And that should be it. Sorry for another bothersome list :p

Edit:

- JL -> Competition -> Stage 0 -> League settings -> TV-type, shouldn't we make it national because of FOX Sports that broadcasts every match. Or should these be pay per view (and if so, shouldn't the Eredivisie be that too?)

Edit2:

I already changed it for you, will be uploading soon.

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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31 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

---

All fixed! I decided to make the Eredivisie and Jupiler League pay-to-view, because of Fox Sports like you said. Seems to be the best choice.

I noticed myself I forgot to add "Is Qualifying Match?" -> Yes to the Fourth Qualifying Round. Which I have done also. I am also uploading this.

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12 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Yeah I figured so but it's annoying nonetheless.

The file should be perfect, now we only have to wait for @Reddiablo.

Great job CrowBar!!

As we speak I am adding kits to the teams that didn't have one yet. So far, I have done all up til half Hoofdklasse. Only the other half of the hoofdklasse remaining, then all the ones have kits too (primary kit is like real life, secondary kit is mostly fictional).

Edited by CrowBar

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Update v2: http://www53.zippyshare.com/v/9zixXk3N/file.html

-All teams that didn't have any kits up til Hoofdklasse have primary and secondary kits, primary is real compared to real life, secondary is mostly fictional and a few real that I could find.

-All club names from playable divisions in Netherlands changed to be more consistent.

I am confident that this is "complete". I'm going to make a post in the "download" forum, probably.

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Nice, I can't seem to find any errors or mistakes so you got green light from me. ;)

Who would've thought that we were able to do this within a week of the official release. Really amazing. And I'm certain that we made it as close to realism as we possibly could. I hope that a lot of people will enjoy this file. 

Cheers!

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Indeed. I propose that we'll fix the Eerste Klasse and other future additions (u19s, reserves) together. This collaboration couldn't have gone any smoother, faster or better than it did now.

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Yes, Eerste Klasse promotion playoff is a bit tricky. Not just the uneven numbers, but also because it is very different. And the playoffs for hoofdklasse / eerste klasse saturday are also slightly different from the sunday ones. In one there is a group stage and a final play-off stage. In the other one are two group stages. 

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Edit: Nevermind, fixed. Delete this post.

 

Edited by CrowBar

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So here I'll explain everything I've done like I promised in the download section, I've been messing with the editor since FM2012 and I have been actively searching for the Dutch Periods since FM2015 but I've figured it out last night. The key lies in the default Holland advanced nation rules but using these default rules are still a bit wrong (and I don't know why). The key to this puzzle is the period stage group settings (all groups), copying the info into seperate individual rules, deleting the league settings (all groups) and the following edits:

Top position playoff for the first group (group 0 in the editor) has to have 1 playoff place. However the groups followin need an extra playoff place, thus group 2 (group 1 in editor) gets 2 top playoff places, group 3 (group 2 in the editor) needs 3 top playoff places and finally group 4 (group 3 in the editor) needs 4 playoff places. You can copy the rules from an individual group setting when you made one by using the drop down menu 'Edit' at the top of the editor (next to File and Rules) and copy it in the next group but you need to apply the following changes to each group:


- Make sure you have the box left of the 'Create Fixtures' is ticked and the box at the right of it needs to be unticked (copy/paste does not paste this one), same goes for 'Save League History'.
- You need to fill in the rounds manually (also don't forget to add the minimum/maximum rounds otherwise it won't work - 9 rounds per period), scroll down to 'Extra League Games', keep Stage at 1, remove minimum and maximum games and add 'Start Round Index'and 'End Round Index'. The starting/ending rounds for the groups are: group 1 (group 0 in the editor) round 1-9, group 2 (group 1 in the editor) round 10-18, group 3 (group 2 in the editor) round 19-27 and the final gropu 4 (group 3 in the editor) round 28-36. Now you'll think, "wait a minute, the Dutch Jupiler League Periods have 38 rounds" and you are correct. But I have found this page http://www.knvb.nl/competities/competitiestructuur/competitiemodel/periodetitels-in-de-jupiler-league stating that the last 2 rounds do not count towards the periods.

Also don't forget to go to advanced rules -> Jupiler League -> Mode and make sure 'Edited Rules (overrides al original rules)' is set. If you're doing this for Derde Divisie and lower then it probably already has 'Edited Rules Override All Rules in Code' and you don't have to change these. Just make sure 'Combined With Rules in Code' isn't chosen. 

And if you're adding the lower leagues then you'll notice that the 'Top Playoff Rules' stage name is called 'Promotion Playoff' instead of 'Playoff'. This doesn't matter tho, I did not change it into Playoff because well I did and learned the hard way that it doesn't work. 


So this will be the effect in the game:
First period:
1 SC Cambuur (Playoff place 1)
2 FC Den Bosch
3 FC Dordrecht
4 Achilles '29

Second Period
1 - FC Eindhoven (Playoff Place 2)
2 - SC Cambuur (Playoff Place 1)
3 - VVV-Venlo
4 - MVV

Third Period
1 - FC Den Bosch (Playoff Place 3)
2 - FC Dordrecht
3 - FC Eindhoven (Playoff Place 2)
4 - MVV

Now this was a great period to check, in the editor it says top 3 places get awarded a playoff spot in-game but it only gave it to the first placed team and not to whom were in second place

Fourth Period
1 - FC Den Bosch (Playoff Place 3)
2 - SC Cambuur (Playoff Place 1)
3 - Jong Ajax (can't promote)
4 - De Graafschap (Playoff Place 4)

This period was also great for confirmation, the first team already had a promotion playoff place and the secnod team can't because its a B-team, so the third team got it.

 

So I have attached the file for you @CrowBar and now all there is left to do is removing @Reddiablo  his nation rules, maybe look at franss his complaint. I also removed some leftover fixture rules and added non-promotable amateurteams to the Jupiler list.
 

Netherlands - Football Pyramid.fmf

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Nice, I'm currently looking into the youth competitions and making some progress (if you look in the other Editor forum topics, but still haven't solved the puzzle completely:D) but this update will take a while to figure out so that update will not come any time soon. In the meantime we could try to add the dutch Eerste Klasse and start creating the District Bekers. The Tweede Klasse teams should be located in the Dutch Lower Leagues. But I don't think we should go any further down than the Eerste Klasse. 

I know how to add the Hoofdklasse/Eerste klasse playoffs (with the uneven numbers of automatically promoting/relegating clubs and the playoffs) so I'll create them in basic rules in FM2015, turn into advanced rules and this way we can replicate the data fairly easy in the FM2017 file. But one thing that is going to cost a lot of time is setting all the Dutch club region settings for the Eerste (and maybe Tweede) Klasse. And last but not least we could try to link the District bekers and Dutch period playoffs with the KNVB Beker qualification but that would really be next level advanced editing.

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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You're probably right on that, for the moment.

However, it might be interesting to note that the guy who made the Project Holland file for FM14 has returned to FM17. He's working on it (see managers united forum), will possibly be complete somewhere before the end of this year. Which means that ALL the clubs of the Netherlands will be in it, up until the 5e klasse. Now, he did decide not to copy the exact structure of real-life (for gameplay reasons), I think he dropped the saturday/sunday part too. But nontheless, What he accomplishes is impressive, as we seen in FM14.

If I am thinking ahead, technically it wouldn't be beyond the realms of what is possible to merge the two somewhat, the clubs at least. Besides, our only limit at the moment is the fact that not all the clubs are in the game.

One can dream.

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Yeah it would be possible to merge and create an all-out Dutch Pyramid. But my main concern is that we will lose realism (players for instance) when we're going futher down the pyramid. We'll focus on the Eerste Klasse first with a whopping 11 sub divisions. 

But I'm currently having some issues with the u19s. I can create a custom xml but getting the teams is really difficult for the Eerste Divisie u19s (as it's chosing some teams from the Eredivisie u19s as well). But creating the Tweede Divisie A/B (has JL and TD teams) and Derde Divisie A/B/C/D (has Derde Divisie Zaterdag/Zondag plus top Hoofdklasse teams) with automatic region boundraries are done. I'm also going to add the Vierde Divisie A/B/C/D/E/F/G/H (will contain the majority of Hoofdklasse teams and most of the Eerste Klasse teams) to the game. If all else fails then I'll just add the custom Eredivisie u19s with the championship playoffs and leave the Eerste Divisie as default (means no playoffs).

But my main issue is that it only works when I'm creating the Nation rules from scratch meaning that we'll probably have to start over to add the u19s.

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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5 hours ago, CrowBar said:

I ran into some problems, the old rules are still floating around somewhere when I edit these files. So we'll have to create the league from scratch but we have all the techniques now. But it'll take some time. You can post this version in the other thread. 

My other question is if you already have merged Reddiablo's file with yours? We can merge my tax rules too if that merge was succesful.

Edit:

Johan Cruijff Schaal, Round Default has 3 out of 7 sub instead of 3 out of 12 and we need to fix that.

Edited by Slabbekoorn

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