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Reddiablo

The Addition of Dutch Lower Leagues (HELP thread)

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I am creating an update which will contain at least the Tweede Divisie, but preferably also the Derde Divisie and who knows - lower down the pyramid.

I am struggling, however.

I can add the Tweede Divisie and have made it playable. It has one team promote into the Jupiler League (2nd tier) and from said division one team relegates.

Now for the fun part:
There is a Derde Divisie Zaterdag -> Games play on Saturday.
There is a Derde Divisie Zondag -> Games play on Sunday.

Two teams should relegate from the Tweede Divisie. I need to add more leagues as when I do not; the issue raised is:
Teams should not be relegated from Dutch Tweede Divisie as there is no division below it.

That means I need the Derde Divisies added, do I create them as a sub league or a new league?  One team to promote from each. And two to relegate (down into the pyramid)
But so far I'm failing altogether :D  And each situation offers a new challenge...

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"Dutch Derde Divisie Zondag has the wrong division level set. This should be set to 5 in the Derde Division Zondag competition record in the database"

Hmm no, it should be the same Division level as the Derde Divisie Zaterdag :D

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 I have been trying to accomplish this myself, I have been at the same point as you. But I have noticed an annoying problem, the teams from the Tweede Divisie don't seem to join the KNVB beker at all once the division is playable (only random lower division teams seem to join besides the professional clubs). I have no idea how to fix that, probably the only way is to replace the cup, but I am not an expert in the editor.

About your question: You should create a new Division: "Derde Divisie" , which is the 'parent' league of the two subdivisions Derde Divisie Zaterdag & Derde Divisie Zondag. That much I am certain about, when you use the generator option to create a competition in the existing pyramid then you can select the division with subleagues. After that in options of Derde Divisie Zaterdag & Zondag you can then click on the option: "Parent Competition", which is above the option Reputation, and select Derde Divisie.

But of course you also need them to relegate to the 4 Hoofdklasses (2 x Zaterdag, 2 x Zondag). You should probably add the Hoofdklasse (just like the Derde divisie with sub-leagues) as an inactive division (unless you want to go that far of course). Then set up the relegation.

By the way, about your plan to have two teams relegated from the Tweede Divisie, I think you probably decided to do that because it is easier? Because in real life, the bottom two will relegate (17, 18), but the nr's 15 & 16 will play in the relegation playoffs together with 6 teams from the Derde Divisie (3 periodekampioenen from each division). It seems too difficult / impossible to go that advanced with periods, but I think you could set it up that you have nr's 17 & 18 relegate, then have the nr's 15 & 16 in the relegation playoffs together with the nr's 2,3,4 from both the Derde Divisies join in. Seems to be possible as much as I can see in the editor. This means you won't have periodekampioenen (too difficult for my knowledge), but you will have it somewhat correctly.

The same thing applies to Derde Divisie -> Hoofdklasse, 2 teams direct relegation from each division, and 2 teams play-offs from each division. So you have the 4 champions from the hoofdklasse going to their respective Derde Divisie (Depending on Zondag or Zaterdag) , then you have the periodekampioenen from each hoofdklasse again. But again, too difficult. So I think you would have the nr's 2 til 4 from each Hoofdklasse joining the playoffs for example. Which means you have a total of 4 spots up for grabs from the two Derde Divisies, where there are a total of 16 teams fighting for it (4 derde divisie, 12 hoofdklasse).

Edited by CrowBar

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Awesome, yes. I figured... hey... Let me copy the English Vanarama structure - and there was a parent Derde Divisie that needs to be created.
Let's start with that. One step and division (and cup!) at a time :D

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Yeah, exactly :). I am already happy that practically all the Tweede Divisie teams have the correct and real players. Derde Divisie too, mostly I think.

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1 minute ago, CrowBar said:

Yeah, exactly :). I am already happy that practically all the Tweede Divisie teams have the correct and real players. Derde Divisie too, mostly I think.

Yep, I spent a lot of time to get the Tweede Divisie teams sorted.

 

The Derde Divisie teams a little less so. I did give them an overlook, there are a lot of missing players - but I did set loads of players that were already in the database in the correct sides. But 2e Divisie should be 90-95% accurate :) 

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I tested out the vanilla game how things are with the KNVB Beker. To my surprise, In the normal db without any editor files, none of the Tweede Divisie or Derde Divisie teams participate in the KNVB Beker, not one single team.

So the conclusion is that there is something wrong with the KNVB Beker the way SI set it up. The only lower league teams that join-up in the early rounds are random 'lower division teams', lower than Derde Divisie. Teams like Naaldwijk etc.

 

TL/DR Version: The teams from the top two Amateur / Semi-Pro leagues teams never participate in the KNVB beker, only teams who are set as "a lower division" (non-attached) do join the KNVB Beker in the early rounds besides the Professional teams. This is incorrect.

Edited by CrowBar

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I already have made the entire dutch division in the FM 2015 Editor including the Tweede Divisie, Derde Divisie, Hoofdklasses and their period play-offs. Also the reserve league, Eredivisie u19, Eerste divisie u19, tweede divisie u19 and their championship play-offs. Not to forget a proper KNVB-Beker that had 2 preliminaries with some Topklasse teams and Tweede Divisie Teams. It has it all.

 

I can upload it for you if you want to. You can import it and check the advanced rules. It really was a hassle to create but it's my blueprint for this FM.

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@ Slabbekoorn, that is great. I would appreciate if if you could upload it? I am also trying to add everything myself, but I am running into a wall myself with the periods. I checked everything thousand times, but I keep getting an error: "Fixture date in Dutch Tweede Divisie (Monday 1st 1900) lies outside competition range date July 2016 to July 2017". I did fix the KNVB beker myself, somewhat, not exactly how I like it. The schedule with the rounds is the frustrating part. I can get all the divisions to join in, but I can't get it to work like it does in real life (that the professional clubs get a 'by' the first few rounds). Because somewhere you have to get to 128 - 64 - 32 etc. That calculation is annoying.

It is also very difficult to get it working right with periods. Because I won't settle for just having regular promotion/relegation.

Edited by CrowBar

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I'll upload it this day. I've also had the first problem, don't really remember what caused it but I fixed it.

The second problem is fixed by adding 'draw by seeding (ascending)' and signing seeds to the league teams.

The only downside to my file is that I've edited everything I wanted in that file so you can't import and save it without my unwanted player edits. So that's why I'm going to make a file myself in some weeks unless you already made it.

 

The only things that I can't seem to fix is how to give the second placed team a play-off spot when the team who has finished first already got one. That and players won't go on holiday in december (the game doesn't respond to anything in the editor so it is bugged) and clubs promoted to the Jupiler League gain automatc pro status while they should've stayed semi-pro (although this is hardcoded so pretty much impossible unless I create a new nation).

 

But the rest is in the file including different starting dates and multiple kick-off times of the lower divisions and for instance the amateur league clubs play at home when they're up against pro clubs in the 1st and 2nd round (excl. preliminairies) of the KNVB-Beker.

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Ah, I see. The player edits I don't mind, as it happens I also have a personal file of player edits, so it doesn't really matter that much to me (for example, I disliked the fact that Robben has gotten a downgrade in FM17, only based on the injury time, but he proves time and time again he is still amazing  and fast even after any injury so far, CA 167 is too low for my taste). But that's a bit off-topic, haha.

You have gotten further than me, this would help a great deal. From there I could tweak some things myself.

 

 

Edited by CrowBar

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Yeah but I haven't uploaded it for eveyone because of all the edits and it is for FM 2015 instead of 16. But I now have 17 so'll make a fresh file.

Here is a link on how to fix your KNVB-Beker. It's actually quite easy when you see it, but still difficult to think of when you're creating it yourself. 

 

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Thanks! I think I know what to do know with that. The only problem I need to fix is the error message I get with '1900', which is weird because I can't find any reference of a date of 1900 in my edited Tweede Divisie. It only happens when I have added the periods-stage, when I remove it, I don't get the error I mentioned above.

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Maybe this will help:

The competition date range in the main competition page are the dates of the regular season. Play-offs will be held after that date and might be outside the Dutch overall competition date range.

 

My problem was that the round names weren't the same as how they were called in the fixture dates. So it should be one of these 2 problems.

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Alright, this is how I have it:

-Netherlands -> Nation -> Season Update Day is 5 July (reset date for new season).

-I have the Start Month and the End Month of the Tweede Divisie at August - May, that is the regular season, that seems OK to me.

- I got 2 stages, stage 0 is the League stage (regular), stage 1 is the playoff (Cup) stage. Stage 0 is working fine on its own.

- Stage 1 (Playoff) has 2 rounds called First Round and Second Round. Starting with 8 teams (6 coming from the two Derde Divisies), then 4 remaining in the Second Round, and after that 2 remaining are the ones that promote or stay in the Tweede Divisie. I set it up in the way that the 2 teams from the Tweede Divisie should never be able to play against each other (I used the Cup Tie Mappings within each round). So that seems fine to me, hopefully.

EDIT: I think I found it out now, I will report back when it works. I found the 'fixture dates' , and I think I know what to do.
 

EDIT 2: Yep, I fixed it, thanks! No more errors, so far so good.

 

Edited by CrowBar

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Nice, great! What was your problem exactly?

My Tweede Divisie has a date range from August to June to avoid these problems because the Tweede Divisie league schedule is from august 19 to may 20, leaving little room for a lot of play-off matches.

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The problem was I forgot to set the Fixture Dates for the specific rounds from Stage 1. Which I have done now.

But I might have celebrated a bit too early, I got a new error. It says: "Dutch Tweede Divsie has not finished in time for the season update day 6/7/2017".... hmm, that's odd. Because I seem to have given enough space now for all the matches.

I did this in Fixture Dates:

8 may Playoff First Round

15 may Playoff First Round (option 2)

11 may Playoff Second Round

15 may Playoff Second Round (option 2)

 

No clue why I got that error?

 

Edited by CrowBar

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That's a difficult problem, it means that their is an error somewhere in the  play-off. I've bumped into one of those too. Sometimes the problem lies in at the start (does the regular Tweede Divisie and Topklasse end before the play-offs because it should), sometimes it is the league date range (but you seem to already have it well before the end of may) and sometimes it is that the fate actions are not set right (meaning that the game won't relegate/promote properly).

Fate actions should look like this:

(note: I used two rounds, round 0, the semi-final, with 8 teams and 4 matches and round 1, the final, with 4 teams and 2 matches)

First go to Fate Actions (Tweede Divisie -> Stage 1 -> Fate Actions)

next you'll need a list like this:

 

Set League Fate, Semi Final, Losing team, Relegated, leag, leag

Set League Fate, Semi Final, Losing team, Derde Divisie, No Fate, leag, leag

 

Set League Fate, Final, Losing team, Relegated, leag, leag

Set League Fate, Final, Losing Team, Derde Divisie, No Fate, leag, leag

 

Set League Fate, Final Winning Team, No Fate, leag, leag

Set League Fate, Winning Team, Derde Divisie, Promoted, leag, leag

 

I'm uploading my file in the meantime but I hope that this will help.;)

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That did do something, I set it up like that now. Now the error is gone, but I am back to the previous error. I guess I have to look around at the fixture dates again. The editor is very sensitive...

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And if you save, close the editor, start it up again and verify the database? Sometimes resetting will help if you've made a lot of changes in the DB.

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That didn't work, I got back to the second error still. Weird, I have the League Fate exactly set-up as yours. I must be doing something wrong, but I am not sure.

I think the editor is faulty, because even if I change the Netherlands Season reset date, it still says 6/7/2016 as season update time in the error. Even if I change it to 13/7, or 20/7.

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I can't really help you any further at this point. It looks like you made an error somewhere and it could be anywhere in the play-off. But here is my FM2015 file, I haven't imported it in FM2017 myself yet so I don't know if you're able to import it properly. Your best bet is to load it in the FM2015 editor and check if you've followed all those steps. Keep in mind though that I created the rules from scratch so my Holland file has "Override Rules in Code". If you're having problems with the reset date not changing then you possibly have "Combined Rules wih Code" instead of the third option "Edited Rules (Override all Original Rules)" which you probably should have. You can check if you go to Advanced Rules -> List -> Holland.

Here is the file btw:

http://www12.zippyshare.com/v/zYh6cfDb/file.html

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Oh I forgot to mention that I have 2 versions in the Editor, one from 2014-2016 where I've removed all relegations/promotions and one with 2016 which is the one you should check. There also are some youth international cups in it and the Premier League International Cup so you'll have plenty of blueprints for different kinds of tournaments.

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For those with editor testing errors: If you use another language than English, please change the language in the editor before testing to English.

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Have we tried setting up periods by the way? I'm not even sure where to begin in that section :D

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Another question

How do we changes the Club Names:

 

Football Club Utrecht

Betaald Voetbal De Graafschap

Sportclub Heerenveen

Roda Kerkrade

 

Really now.... ;)

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This is the exact reason why I wasn't going to upload this file in the first place. I told you not to edit this file but use as an example since it is full of other unwanted edits.

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Is that addressed to me? Haven't touched yours yet. Am referring to the actual FM17 game release.

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I have it almost figured out, including periods. Getting close, I compared it with Slabbekoorn's file (FM 15 editor).

The odd thing is, sometimes I get verifying issues with the edtor (something about too many teams promoting to Eredivisie), and sometimes it's fine (restarting editor). I got it almost completely (Eredivisie, JL, Tweede Divisie, Derde Divisie, Hoofdklasse) and the Eerste Divisie as inactive division.

Only issue left is between Hoofdklasse and Derde Divisie, somewhere. I have to figure this out, it's an error that is always there (not gone after I restart). About there being too many teams in Stage 0 Derde Divisie (this is the play-off stage for relegation).

edit: I only edit in English.

Edited by CrowBar

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@CrowBar

 

Would it be possible to do a guide or something for the playoffs? You're definitely doing this faster than I am. 

ps - adding clubs to a cup isn't a smart thing as it deletes them from a league. I do that kind of stuff ha.

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50 minutes ago, Reddiablo said:

Is that addressed to me? Haven't touched yours yet. Am referring to the actual FM17 game release.

Oh I thought you were talking about my file. I did make those changes that you've listed. Sorry mate. The best way to create play-offs is by staying out of the advanced rules as long as possible. If you want to create a relegation playoff than you have to create it in the highest league of the 2 leagues. So you need to go to the Tweede Divisie go to play-offs, tick the Relegation Playoff box, number of teams from this division (Tweede Division) is 2, number of teams from lower division is 6 (3 from Derde Divisie Zaterdag and 3 from Derde Divisie Zondag), so your total number of teams is 8 (but isn't used unless you use the Advanced Rules) and thus 'number of relegated teams from playoff' is 6. 

@Crowbar

The verifying issues are normal when you make a lot of changes in the league structure. Its something you have to work with. The too many teams stage means that you have too much teams qualifying from either the Derde Divisie as the Hoofdklasses. Probably just a typo or an oversight. You could compare using my file.

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13 minutes ago, Slabbekoorn said:

Oh I thought you were talking about my file. I did make those changes that you've listed. Sorry mate. The best way to create play-offs is by staying out of the advanced rules as long as possible. If you want to create a relegation playoff than you have to create it in the highest league of the 2 leagues. So you need to go to the Tweede Divisie go to play-offs, tick the Relegation Playoff box, number of teams from this division (Tweede Division) is 2, number of teams from lower division is 6 (3 from Derde Divisie Zaterdag and 3 from Derde Divisie Zondag), so your total number of teams is 8 (but isn't used unless you use the Advanced Rules) and thus 'number of relegated teams from playoff' is 6. 

@Crowbar

The verifying issues are normal when you make a lot of changes in the league structure. Its something you have to work with. The too many teams stage means that you have too much teams qualifying from either the Derde Divisie as the Hoofdklasses. Probably just a typo or an oversight. You could compare using my file.

So I set a promotion playoff as well in both Derde Divisies?? As now it tells me:
Number of teams promoted from Derde Divisie doesn't match with number of teams relegated from Dutch Tweede Divisie

Teams relegated from upper division: 2
Teams promoted via upper division playoff: 4  -- yeah, well this all depends, doesn't it?
Teams promoted from lower division: 2
 

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21 minutes ago, Reddiablo said:

So I set a promotion playoff as well in both Derde Divisies?? As now it tells me:
Number of teams promoted from Derde Divisie doesn't match with number of teams relegated from Dutch Tweede Divisie

Teams relegated from upper division: 2
Teams promoted via upper division playoff: 4  -- yeah, well this all depends, doesn't it?
Teams promoted from lower division: 2
 

You always set the promotion play-off in the parent division (never in sub-divisions like Derde Divisie Zaterdag or Zondag) and if you want a promotion playoff between the Tweede Divisie and Derde Divisie then you have to create it (Relegationi Play-off) in the Tweede Division. If you want to create one between the Derde Divisie and Hoofdklasse then you have to create it in the Derde Division. 

 

My next example is in Basic Rules, A promotion play-off for 3 teams each of the Derde Divisie Zaterdag and Zondag (total Derde Divisie play-off teams is 6) and the Tweede Divisie will have nr 17 & 18 with an automatic relegation and 15 & 16 will participate in the promotion play-off

If you want to set automatic relegations then you have to go to

Tweede Divisie -> General -> Number of Relegation Places; 2

Derde Divisie (the parent division) -> General -> Number of Promotion Places 2 (don't create it in the sub-divisons)

This way there are 2 automatic relegations from the Tweede Division (one to Derde Divisie Zaterdag and one to Zondag) and 1 automatic promotion in both Derde Divisie Saturday and Sunday.

 

Now you create the play-off with the steps in my previous post.

Go to Tweede Divisie -> Playoffs

There you can pick between Chamionship, Promotion or Relegation Playoffs. Pick the latter one (Relegation Playoff)

Type -> Cup

Number of teams from this Division in Playoff -> 2 (as this is set in the Tweede Divisie this way you pick the last two teams excl the automatic relegation spots which are nr 16 and 17)

Number of teams from lower Division in Playoff -> 6 (these 6 are a total of both Derde Divisie Zaterdag and Zondag, 3 teams each excl the automatic promotion spot so that are the teams placed 2nd 3rd and 4th)

Number of teams relegated from Playoff -> 6 (the Playoff is set in the Tweede Divisie so those 6 teams added should eventually relegate before the next season starts, which means that there should be 2 winners from the play-off and thus you need 6 teams of 8 total (2 from Tweede Divisie, 3 from Derde Divisie Zaterdag and 3 from Derde Divisie Zondag)

Match Rules -> Extra Time, Penalties (whenever the matches end in a draw)

Number of Legs -> 2 (home and away game in Holland)

 

If you double these digits then you'll get data you'll need for a relegation play-off between the Derde Divisie and Hoofdklasse, However this is just a regular play-off, You have to add the Dutch periods in the Advanced Rules.

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Much appreciated. Thank you.

I should have done exactly this, and now I still get an error:

 

Conflicting number of promoted teams between Dutch Divisie (main division) and Dutch Derde Divisie Zaterdag.

 

Tweede Divisie:
Number of promotion places: 1
Number of relegation places: 2

Relegation Playoff:
Teams from this division: 2
Teams from lower division: 6
Teams relegated: 6

Derde Divisie:
Number of promotion places: 2

Sub-Divisions
Derde Divisie Zaterdag & Zondag:
Number of promotion places: 0
 

 

 

edit - ok, fixed.   Number of promotion places unticked.

 

Grr :D

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You're welcome. I also just saw the option in Advanced Rules where we can block specific teams from promoting and we can use it for teams like Ajax Amateurs, SC Feyenoord PSV/av etc. etc. I don't know if it was in the editor last year but this is great!

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Nice, you have to go to Advanced Rules for the periods, just look at the JL stage 1 and you'll need to replicate it. The exact numbers are in my uploaded file like usual.

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22 hours ago, Slabbekoorn said:

You're welcome. I also just saw the option in Advanced Rules where we can block specific teams from promoting and we can use it for teams like Ajax Amateurs, SC Feyenoord PSV/av etc. etc. I don't know if it was in the editor last year but this is great!

Where did you find this? I am now trying to block some teams from ever reaching the Jupiler League (Ajax Amateurs for example). Also I want to block all the reserve teams (Jong teams) from promoting to Eredivisie, I saw it somewhere randomly, but I can't find it again.

I did manage to get everything working by the way, the periods, the promotion and relegation. It seems to be functioning.

EDIT: I found it :). Took me a while, my eyes got a bit tired staring at the editor.

Edited by CrowBar

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I can't for the life of me figure out the periods. It keeps telling me Teams 2-4 qualify for promotion playoff.


i do have the periods set up though in its basis. so I suppose that is good... they do show for the 3rd Divisions.

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55 minutes ago, CrowBar said:

Where did you find this? I am now trying to block some teams from ever reaching the Jupiler League (Ajax Amateurs for example). Also I want to block all the reserve teams (Jong teams) from promoting to Eredivisie, I saw it somewhere randomly, but I can't find it again.

I did manage to get everything working by the way, the periods, the promotion and relegation. It seems to be functioning.

EDIT: I found it :). Took me a while, my eyes got a bit tired staring at the editor.

isn't it easier or maybe even better to prevent teams like Ajax amateur and NEC amateur to become semi pro, this way they will never get the rep to raise too high up the ladder

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27 minutes ago, Reddiablo said:

I can't for the life of me figure out the periods. It keeps telling me Teams 2-4 qualify for promotion playoff.


i do have the periods set up though in its basis. so I suppose that is good... they do show for the 3rd Divisions.

When I am confident it is ready (right now I am testing things ingame by holidaying), I will upload my file. My periods are working. But it was a lot of comparing, so much that I can't even be able to explain it exactly how I did it, lots of trial and error.

 

18 minutes ago, Mr NEC said:

isn't it easier or maybe even better to prevent teams like Ajax amateur and NEC amateur to become semi pro, this way they will never get the rep to raise too high up the ladder

Yes, partly, they could still get to the Jupiler League even if they are amateur (I think) so I made sure that is not possible by setting this as a rule in the Jupiler League. But you are right, I have fixed that, I made them "always amateur" . So now they won't ever go to Semi-Pro and nor will they ever reach the Jupiler League.

Edited by CrowBar

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19 minutes ago, Reddiablo said:

I can't for the life of me figure out the periods. It keeps telling me Teams 2-4 qualify for promotion playoff.


i do have the periods set up though, so I suppose that is good...

Go to Tweede Divisie -> Stage 1 (rlpl) cup -> teams

and compare it with

Eredivisie -> Stage 2 (poff) cup -> teams

Basically you need to change the teams from

Get qualified teams from stage, Derde Divisie, leag, Promotion Playoff, use position in previous stage 

to

Get qualified teams from stage, Derde Divisie, 0, Playoff

And make sure that Derde Divisie -> Stage 2 (peri) group -> League Settings (All Groups), scroll down to 'Top Playoff Rules' has the following:

Number of top playoff places 1

Next Stage - Main Stage Name : Playoff

 

The stage names have to be the same in order for it to work.

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I have the periods but no games are being allocated. Spend the entire afternoon on this ****. Fed up now.

Someone please upload something that works as it should for FM17. PLEASE!!!! :D
or if someone wants to sort out my file that would be great too.

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Yeah it's pretty stupid that we're all creating our own file. 

But we still have a lot to do. The KNVB Beker has to exclude al reserve teams like Jong Ajax, PSV, AZ, Utrecht etc etc. All teams should have their local regions set to the right competitions. Plus league boundraries for the Hoofdklasse (and Eerste Klasse). 

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Well..  I have added quite a few adjustments to the regular database, player changes etc.  It would be worthwhile to have that included.
Maybe I should give up on the league system, although it would be nice if I can do that (first time I'm actually trying it)

Can we somehow integrated the files? So you have my DB changes to the official database as I see appropriate as Head Researcher. I have the official fixtures loaded in as well -- and then we combine it with the playable divisions?

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We can only have one Holland nation rule file. So if all those other edits aren't made in nation rules than you can use and load them seperatley when creating/playing a game.

But if you can explain what is not working in more detail than I can probably help you. Or loading and comparing my FM2015 file will get rid of all problems.

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If I deleted all the divisions (Derde divisie) and lower (I'm thinking the tweede divisie is fine) ---- and start from scratch, would that work?
I'm lost.

 

Right now the issues are:

 

- Periods set for 3rd divisions; but they don't actively get allocated

I somehow created the following error: 
Error in Nation Rules:
Require minimum of 8 teams for Hoofdklasse Zondag A found only 0
Require minimum of 10 teams for Hoofdklasse Zondag B found only 0

Fixed

 

- And before I had the second issue, the tiers through to the 3rd DIvisies were playable, but you couldn't select them in the league selection page in the actual game. So you have to run them all. But can't go back to that now.

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