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michmich

4-1-4-1 - cannot make it work

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Hi.

I want to play 4-1-4-1 (flat) possession oriented, I was struggling in any FM edition so far (from 15-17).

In fm16 I was struggling, I used to play with some shouts and control mentality with a small team (Bournemouth), then, I started to read many people advices, guides about shape and mentality and how it works.

Then, I understood that I made a mistake, because control mentality is misleading and it's fairly attacking minded football which I played with a small team that supposed to mostly sit deeper due to the lack of quality we have.

so, after I understand the team mentality temp, width etc... I switched my mentality to a more defensive and even counter attack sometimes, because it\s more suitable to what I want to play, and also depends on the club I faced and I really had a lot of improvements in terms of the performance and even really beautiful play by my players.

but this was, FM16 and I managed to improve my game in FM16 later and very close to fm17 beta release.

In fm17 it's totally a different story.

I already rage quit many saves in fm17 and came back to the fmbase forum or searching on google if there are any advices that can open my mind, again.

I'm always looking for challenge, if I will pick a big team to manage I start losing interest fast because I don't feel it's challenging enough, and why I mentioned the big team's thing, because when I read articles and guides people suggesting to "take control over a big team and to implement a tactic and if it works, it might also can work in low level teams as well.

but it doesn't make sense because before, the article mentioned I need to adapt my playstyle to the players I have, so what's the point of taking a bigger club with high quality players which almost everything can work with their players no matter what's your approach of the game.

I saw some people streams and they are "overcomplicating" things (too many team instruction to players) and they still manage to win games and even to the title, but guess what, it's a big club so this is probably why they manage to take the title (and it also could be a plug and play tactic which makes more sense, I never saw a plug and play tactic with few team instructions).

 

Anyway, I really need help.

I'm playing 4-1-4-1 with defensive mentality and flexible shape, team instructions: prevent short GK distribution, play out of defense, wiped crosses.

I have only 3 players with a specific player instruction, it's the striker, and 2 WM with close down much more.

                         DLF (S)

WM (A)   DLP(S)   CM (s)  WM (s)

                         DM(d)

FB (S)      CD(d)       CD(d)   FB(A)

                          GK (D)

as I said, I ragequitted my save many times, when I saw that defensive mentality cannot work, so I tried counter and I still didn't have much luck when it becomes to at least performing well (I really don't care about losing, I want my player to play better at least), it became worse when I switched to attacking or control mentality, but I tried the last 2, just because I was desperate.

My defense which supposed to be solid with such formation and mentality conceding goals and we cannot really hold the ball, my defenders hoofing the ball away (like they are panicked) even when they have no pressure on them, there was many times they had some pressure on them so I understand I might need to increase the tempo.

and I also struggle to score (I understands while I'm playing with 1 striker)

I tried to tweak some roles, I tried to go with CM(a) to give more support to my striker, didn't worked.

I saw that my striker being isolated, I tried to change his role to defensive forward with support duty because the opposition played with high defensive line, seems like defensively my players doesn't react like I want to.

I tried to go with also close down more, so my players will press the opposition in my own half so it will harder for them to create something in my own half.

I also tried to go with winger's roles in one of my saves instead of width, which i think isn't good for the way I want to play because wingers tend to dribble more, which is the opposite of how I want to play, but anyway for the sake of see how my team is doing on the pitch, it wasn't good at all.

I believe that I have some good understanding of the football game itself, but in terms of FM17 I'm really missing something.

Sorry if I sound a little harsh, I'm really desperate.

Edited by michmich

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Don't use the TI "prevent short GK distribution". It means your wide players will man mark the full backs at the other end of the field which really shouldn't be happening in a defensive 4-1-4-1. In fact, don't close down so much. Just take the standard defensive mentality and don't change the closing down or defensive line height at all. Also don't instruct your defenders to play out of defense. Let them decide for themselves what to do. Also I'd try to stretch the field a bit more when in possession. Put both WM's on attack duty and both fullbacks on support duty to prevent getting caught out when losing possession and threaten the opponents more with runs behind the defense.

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Some of your instructions are a bit counter-intuitive. A few thoughts....

-why defensive instead of counter? Not saying defensive is wrong, but that mentality likely explains the safety-first approach of your central defenders just getting rid of the ball.

-being defensive in a shape like 4-1-4-1, the two banks of four and the DM being hard to break thru is one of the main advantages. Upping the closing down then breaks that shape and leaves gaps to exploit.

-playing defensive, or even counter, is accepting that you are going to concede the ball to the opponent a lot and try to soak up a lot of pressure. Which is why a solid shape and most players back is important. Your players aren't trying to hold onto the ball much because as a whole, that's not what you asking them do by playing defensive.

-why prevent short GK distribution but also play thru the defense? Why play thru the defence at all if you are wanting to be very defensive and get the ball away from your goal as quick as possible?

-DLP is the one role that kinda sticks out to me. Not wrong at all but seems a bit odd to have a distributor role in an approach that isn't going to want to keep the ball as a whole

-a lone striker in a defensive tactic is always going to be somewhat isolated but he can still do some work. I've had good success with DF, DLF, and CF but it depends on the player. PPMs will play a role. For example, a Likes to Breka Offside Trap PPM will keep the player higher up against the defensive line and less involved.

 

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@Bigpapa42 makes some good points in the comment above and I agree with what he has said. 

When you're making changes to your setup do you have any reasoning for it? Why did you choose to close down more? Because you thought it would lead to more possession or because you decided you wanted to pin them back and stop them from slowly building up towards your goal? Did you make any other changes to supplement closing down more? I.e. Did you change to control or attacking mentality to push higher up the pitch and close down more aggressively by default? 

I'm not saying it can't work but the way you have set up seems very defensive to me therefore closing down the opposition isn't going to work. To me in a 4-1-4-1 I expect my team to stay solid in their defensive shape and contain the opposition (like what happens when you use the defensive mentality) and i would look to hit them on the counter.

Think about different things when deciding how you want to play. For example if you want to soak up pressure, win the ball back in your defensive third when the opposition have committed too many men forward before launching a deadly counter using the space in behind the defence and on the wings that they have left open then should younreally be choosing play out of defence? Once your team wins the ball back they will look to play their way out of the situation until it reaches the midfield and they carry it into the middle third of the pitch, thus counteracting against your initial philosophy. 

In regards to your defenders hoofing the ball when not under any pressure, using the defensive mentality causes players with defend duties to play a much more direct passing style. This is going to lead to longer passes up to the strikers in order to be more direct and start attacking. Maybe this could be countered by using shorter passing PIs on each defender? 

Also, the DLP will be slowing down the play when in possession like a true playmaker does in order to find the right pass so this will also go against a counter attacking style. Something like a box to box midfielder here would be much more direct when on the break. I know you said you want a possession based tactic but you have to consider whether this is doable due to the players you have and more importantly - when on the ball do your players have options around them? In order to be successful in possession the player who has the ball must have options otherwise this will result in a hoof up the pitch. 

There's always a reason for the actions of your players and it just takes a little bit of time to notice and understand why they're doing what they're doing. Good luck with the tactic and hopefully this has helped 

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3 hours ago, Chip said:

 

3 hours ago, Chip said:

Think about different things when deciding how you want to play. For example if you want to soak up pressure, win the ball back in your defensive third when the opposition have committed too many men forward before launching a deadly counter using the space in behind the defence and on the wings that they have left open then should younreally be choosing play out of defence? Once your team wins the ball back they will look to play their way out of the situation until it reaches the midfield and they carry it into the middle third of the pitch, thus counteracting against your initial philosophy. 

 

 

I don't think this is correct (at least with a counter mentality).  Although I could be wrong, when there is a counter-attacking opportunity, all of your team's mentality will increase to the maximum attacking mentality.  To an extent, this is true with all mentalities, but the counter mentality is a little more aggressive regarding what it considers a "counter-attack opportunity".  When a counter attack is triggered, you will ignore instructions such as "play out of defense" and aggressively pursue the counter.  However, the play out of the back TI will shorten your defenders default passing distance when a counter attack is not deemed possible.  I believe Cleon covered this in his brilliant "art of counter attacking" thread.  It also bears mentioning that the default passing length for defenders in a counter mentality is rather long and this TI could help you build up play when the counter attack isn't triggered.

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2 hours ago, jakem016 said:

I don't think this is correct (at least with a counter mentality).  Although I could be wrong, when there is a counter-attacking opportunity, all of your team's mentality will increase to the maximum attacking mentality.  To an extent, this is true with all mentalities, but the counter mentality is a little more aggressive regarding what it considers a "counter-attack opportunity".  When a counter attack is triggered, you will ignore instructions such as "play out of defense" and aggressively pursue the counter.  However, the play out of the back TI will shorten your defenders default passing distance when a counter attack is not deemed possible.  I believe Cleon covered this in his brilliant "art of counter attacking" thread.  It also bears mentioning that the default passing length for defenders in a counter mentality is rather long and this TI could help you build up play when the counter attack isn't triggered.

Yeah this is true however as stated in Lines & Diamonds on defensive and counter settings "the team is more likely to break forward immediately if the opposition leaves itself defensively exposed in the transition phase". This reads to me that a "counter" as such will be launched and TIs such as play out of defence will be ignored only when the opposition are out of shape and vulnerable after they lose the ball. Any other times play out of defence will be activated and used. 

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16 hours ago, Frank27 said:

Don't use the TI "prevent short GK distribution". It means your wide players will man mark the full backs at the other end of the field which really shouldn't be happening in a defensive 4-1-4-1. In fact, don't close down so much. Just take the standard defensive mentality and don't change the closing down or defensive line height at all. Also don't instruct your defenders to play out of defense. Let them decide for themselves what to do. Also I'd try to stretch the field a bit more when in possession. Put both WM's on attack duty and both fullbacks on support duty to prevent getting caught out when losing possession and threaten the opponents more with runs behind the defense.

Thank you for trying to help.

when I choosed to go with GK distribution, it's because i read this:

5110182.jpg

I don't see anything related to man marking there for my wide players, and i didn't saw by my self in the ME that my wide players marking the full backs, they are not marking the full backs unless i will give them mark tighter instruction and specific players.

But i never heard that GK distribution TI instruct to mark players, if that's true, it's not working because my wide players doesn't mark (even though this is not what i really intended to do).

any way my main point behind the GK distribution is: when there is a goal kick for the opposition, my players will be in the opposition half and trying to steal the ball and pressure them up, but Incase the opposition managed to advance the ball with possession, I want my defensive line and not to play high defensive line.

My idea behind closing down with defensive mentality is, to let them have possession in their own half if there was no goal kick and they just passing the ball around in their own half this is not a concern, but when they reach my half, i want my players to press them up and to lead for lose ball and we go counter immediately after the lossing ball.

about play out of defence, defensive mentality = more direct passing from the back and patient approach on the attack third, so i tried to decrease the direct passing from the back with play out of defense instruction which my thought was to encourage my players to find a short pass and to build up from the back instead of direct ball or hoofing the ball away.

 

16 hours ago, Bigpapa42 said:

Some of your instructions are a bit counter-intuitive. A few thoughts....

-why defensive instead of counter? Not saying defensive is wrong, but that mentality likely explains the safety-first approach of your central defenders just getting rid of the ball.

-being defensive in a shape like 4-1-4-1, the two banks of four and the DM being hard to break thru is one of the main advantages. Upping the closing down then breaks that shape and leaves gaps to exploit.

-playing defensive, or even counter, is accepting that you are going to concede the ball to the opponent a lot and try to soak up a lot of pressure. Which is why a solid shape and most players back is important. Your players aren't trying to hold onto the ball much because as a whole, that's not what you asking them do by playing defensive.

-why prevent short GK distribution but also play thru the defense? Why play thru the defence at all if you are wanting to be very defensive and get the ball away from your goal as quick as possible?

-DLP is the one role that kinda sticks out to me. Not wrong at all but seems a bit odd to have a distributor role in an approach that isn't going to want to keep the ball as a whole

-a lone striker in a defensive tactic is always going to be somewhat isolated but he can still do some work. I've had good success with DF, DLF, and CF but it depends on the player. PPMs will play a role. For example, a Likes to Breka Offside Trap PPM will keep the player higher up against the defensive line and less involved.

 

Thank you for trying to help.

-why defensive instead of counter? Not saying defensive is wrong, but that mentality likely explains the safety-first approach of your central defenders just getting rid of the ball.

I said im playing mostly defensve but im switching to counter depends on the opposition.

from what i start to understand from people around here, defensive mentality is kind of useless mentality, I don't see anyone who wants his defenders to hoof the ball away or get rid of the ball unless it's the less couple of minutes (makes contain mentality totally useless because defensive mentality is quite the same).

when i see my players playing on the defensive mentality it's really a disaster, the opposition doing whatever he wants which is fine, because i set my defense to play deep, but the defense cannot even be solid defending, conceding 3 goal is quite annoying with such formation and mentality, my players upfield the lone striker for example he gets the ball and instead to pass backward to some of the players that is alone he turn around and try to drible DF (s), it didn't happen once, it happend many time that why im really frustrated about this.

because this backward pass can give my team some time to breath and hold the ball but instead he turns around and runs like blind horse forward and there is like 4 players in front of him ready to close him down.

and i also understand regardless defensive mentality from what people saying here, it's useless for possession orianted game, while, this mentality worked flawlessly in FM16 when i tried to create a possession orianted game (but i understand it's a different game).

or im just getting confused here, because from all the guides and article i read i have a different prespective of how the game engine works.

regardless DLP, the only reason i changed it from Box to box to DLP is that when my full backs have the ball, my 2 cm's doesn't come to offer a pass, it's like they are saying, **** the full back let him deal by himself.

while when i played with DLP he came closer to get the ball from the full backs or someone that needed passing support.

also take a note, this player (DLP) have a PPM come deep to get the ball, so im not sure if that's the reason he offers, but as i said before when i played BBM it was total disaster, because midfielders doesn't offer passing options.

 

about the lone striker, i tried many roles that are relevant to my tactic.

but now while typing this, i didn't checked calumn wilson ppm before, he have knocks ball past opponent (which encourage him to dribble more? and it's kinda answer my question why he doesn't pass back to retain possesion?)

actually klose have a ppm which he plays with his back to goal, but klose isn't my main striker, he is slow in pace but if im playing possesion orianted game he might suits the way i guess.

 

anyway from all this, im getting confused, but i will try your suggestions, i will play counter with no team instructions and i will remove the player instructions from the wide players.

 

edit: i don't tend to see players doing 1 two passes, this is a shame you need a trait for a player for such basic move.

 

Edited by michmich

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i played with counter mentality with the only TI whipped crosses which i forgot to remove, but no PI's as you guys suggested.

i switched the DLP to BBM, as like i told you before it gets even worse.

I started to watch the game in full match highlight, in the 14 minutes Morgan Schneiderlin with attribute of 5 with long shots scored a goal from distance which makes a "lot of sense".

the second goal came from juan mata, look at my full back (simon francis #2), look the distance between the defender and the full back, why the hell simone francis doesn't close the center?

this is the moment when i just gave up on the game and wanted the game to just run on key because i already had enough with this game already. i tried many varations and nothing work.

as i said before in my above post ,i don't care about losing, if i lose atleast i would like my players to perform.

after 26 minutes it was already 2-0, i switched to key because yeah, what can i do? switching mentality to control? attack? overload?!
I don't even want to know what happens if i go more risky mentality.

Untitled.jpg

11121.jpg

 

edit: sorry, i want to add that i was playing with play out of defense on the start and took it off i think after the 2nd goal but maybe even earlier.

Edited by michmich

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Playing more narrow and giving your MR an attack role and your DR a support role might help. At least it will make sure your fullbacks do a better job helping out the centrebacks. Also gives more options to your striker in transition.

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6 minutes ago, Frank27 said:

Playing more narrow and giving your MR an attack role and your DR a support role might help. At least it will make sure your fullbacks do a better job helping out the centrebacks. Also gives more options to your striker in transition.

that's the way i started the game.

here is a screenshot how i approach the game, and as i said on my last comment, i removed the play out of defence after the 2nd goal (maybe even before but im not sure, so let's say i removed it after the 2nd goal which was after 26 minutes of the game.

 

Untitled.jpg

34444.jpg

Edited by michmich

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In the second photo you posted your team are playing with what looks like a back 3 in that situation - I'm assuming one of your centre backs has went to close down Ibrahimovic? This had led to a huge gap in your defence and if this is something which happens on a regular basis then maybe you need to set your CBs to close down less? 

Changing mentality isn't always the answer to playing differently. Think about changing roles. Change your full backs to wing backs to increase width and support on the flanks. Something along these lines anyway. Use a more aggressive CM role? Toy around with different things and see what gets the best out of your team and exploits the opposition. 

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13 minutes ago, michmich said:

that's the way i started the game, and as i said on my last comment, i removed the play out of defence after the 2nd goal (maybe even before but im not sure, so let's say i removed it after the 2nd goal which was after 26 minutes of the game.

 

Oh in the first post your system had an MR with support duty and DR with attack duty, now it's on the other flank. The thing is, I'm not a big fan of defensive systems with attacking fullbacks. In general your opponent will try to press you high up the pitch and you'll try to keep hold of the ball. So you need to make the playing field as big as possible which means your fullbacks should probably be looking to drop into space to receive the ball (support) and WM's should look for space behind the defense (attack) or at least force the fullback to get back into the defensive line.

On another note I don't quite understand all the frustration if it's just from a result like this one. You say your team plays like crap but you managed 48% possession away against manchester united and had 10 shots. It sounds to me like you were unlucky as well with the other team being clinical and your team being wasteful. And you have to remember you're one of the lowest quality teams in the league playing away against possibly the highest quality team in the league. You'd have to do an amazing job to get a point from this match.

 

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9 minutes ago, Chip said:

In the second photo you posted your team are playing with what looks like a back 3 in that situation - I'm assuming one of your centre backs has went to close down Ibrahimovic? This had led to a huge gap in your defence and if this is something which happens on a regular basis then maybe you need to set your CBs to close down less? 

Changing mentality isn't always the answer to playing differently. Think about changing roles. Change your full backs to wing backs to increase width and support on the flanks. Something along these lines anyway. Use a more aggressive CM role? Toy around with different things and see what gets the best out of your team and exploits the opposition. 

3 at the back it looks like this maybe because the defensive midfieder is coming too deep because he is on defend duty.

But anyway, even if my defender is closing down ibrahimovic, what is going on with francis the right full back on support duty? it's not what led to the goal, but why he doesn't close down the empty space which the center back leaved open?

this is defently something that the AI can exploit. the goal after all from the same attack came from the center left side, same happened with mings which prefer to mark his own teamate instead to close the area which can be exploited.

5597553.jpg

ball came to ibrahimovic which pass the ball between the defensive midfilder and 2 center backs.

1729318.jpg

it's like my full backs aren't doing anything on defense.

not sure if this is a ME issue, for me when comparing it to real life football, even low level players know's that full backs have more defensive duties and cover the center back incase there is an empty space which can be exploited or when it requires unless the manager instruct the full backs to play more attacking role and he have no duties at the back.

That's the basics in football for full backs roles.

When thinking about it, if i will increase the width or going with a different role to the full back like wing back, it will increase the empty space between the full backs and my center backs which would lead to worse result.

5 minutes ago, Frank27 said:

Oh in the first post your system had an MR with support duty and DR with attack duty, now it's on the other flank. The thing is, I'm not a big fan of defensive systems with attacking fullbacks. In general your opponent will try to press you high up the pitch and you'll try to keep hold of the ball. So you need to make the playing field as big as possible which means your fullbacks should probably be looking to drop into space to receive the ball (support) and WM's should look for space behind the defense (attack) or at least force the fullback to get back into the defensive line.

On another note I don't quite understand all the frustration if it's just from a result like this one. You say your team plays like crap but you managed 48% possession away against manchester united and had 10 shots. It sounds to me like you were unlucky as well with the other team being clinical and your team being wasteful. And you have to remember you're one of the lowest quality teams in the league playing away against possibly the highest quality team in the league. You'd have to do an amazing job to get a point from this match.

 

because at the start of the game i had CM (A) on the right side and WM (A) I thought that i might leave some space that the AI can exploit.

I switched in the middle of the game the roles to look like this: (but there shouldn't be any changes, the changes should make it even better because it's more balanced then before).

1276280.png

 

you didn't got my point, and we didn't really playing well.

atleast not with the key highlight, and i really cannot say we were unlucky by losing 5-0.

if the score was 2-0 2-1, 1-0, yeah i would say we were unlucky.

also, i don't know how we really performed but when i was watching full match the 1st 30 minutes the performance wasn't really promising at all.

as i said i didn't saw the full match so i cannot really analyze if the the possession we had was in our half or in man u half, this could be false indication.

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Please, anyone can help here?

I was thinkin about maybe changins shape to highly structured with counter mentality, no ti's and pi's at all and  maybe even increasing the tempo to high tempo.

does this sound more sensible with the current duties?

if yes and not i would love to get advices and some other thoughts.

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15 hours ago, michmich said:

3 at the back it looks like this maybe because the defensive midfieder is coming too deep because he is on defend duty.

But anyway, even if my defender is closing down ibrahimovic, what is going on with francis the right full back on support duty? it's not what led to the goal, but why he doesn't close down the empty space which the center back leaved open?

this is defently something that the AI can exploit. the goal after all from the same attack came from the center left side, same happened with mings which prefer to mark his own teamate instead to close the area which can be exploited.

5597553.jpg

ball came to ibrahimovic which pass the ball between the defensive midfilder and 2 center backs.

1729318.jpg

it's like my full backs aren't doing anything on defense.

not sure if this is a ME issue, for me when comparing it to real life football, even low level players know's that full backs have more defensive duties and cover the center back incase there is an empty space which can be exploited or when it requires unless the manager instruct the full backs to play more attacking role and he have no duties at the back.

That's the basics in football for full backs roles.

When thinking about it, if i will increase the width or going with a different role to the full back like wing back, it will increase the empty space between the full backs and my center backs which would lead to worse result.

because at the start of the game i had CM (A) on the right side and WM (A) I thought that i might leave some space that the AI can exploit.

I switched in the middle of the game the roles to look like this: (but there shouldn't be any changes, the changes should make it even better because it's more balanced then before).

1276280.png

 

you didn't got my point, and we didn't really playing well.

atleast not with the key highlight, and i really cannot say we were unlucky by losing 5-0.

if the score was 2-0 2-1, 1-0, yeah i would say we were unlucky.

also, i don't know how we really performed but when i was watching full match the 1st 30 minutes the performance wasn't really promising at all.

as i said i didn't saw the full match so i cannot really analyze if the the possession we had was in our half or in man u half, this could be false indication.

What do you want Francis to do? From the screenshot the position he took looks fine, he cant really get any narrower as that would leave united #11 a free run.

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22 hours ago, michmich said:

Please, anyone can help here?

 

Your set-up probably just needs some tinkering with player instructions. I play a 4-1-4-1 in our network save -- we just finished the first season, and I was joint top with Leeds (lost out on goal difference). I didn't switch to the 4-1-4-1 until 10 games in or so, probably would've walked the league otherwise. I can take more caps the next time we play. Topped the possession and passing accuracy charts for the year. Here's the basic setup: https://i.sli.mg/90uMyv.jpg

I played most of the season with a left-footed wide playmaker on the right and a right-footed WM-S on the left set to cut inside. I swap the playmaker role  to either wing depending on who is healthy, and I play a winger on support instead of a wm-s if they are not opposite footed to their wing. I also swap the CMs around depending on which wing player is attacking, so I don't have the attacking CM next to my attacking wing player. 

Player instructions:
GK: Fewer risky passes, slow pace down
Fullbacks: sit narrower, tackle harder, shoot less often (will throw one or both into attack if the other team has a weak fullback or formation vulnerable to overload, or I'm chasing a game)
Centerbacks: tackle harder
DM: fewer risky passes, shoot less often, close down less, hold position -- will swap to DM-D if I also flip to counter at the end to hold a lead, love using him on support though because he gets higher up and recycles possession
BBM: tackle harder
CM: tackle harder, more risky passes, more direct passes
Wing players: tackle harder (if using a wm-s opposite foot I will do cut inside with ball, get further forward, and dribble more if the player has decent dribbling)
F9: tackle harder (will occaisonally switch to DF-D or DF-S when holding a lead, always tick move into channels to get him going wide. I tried tons of roles here including CF-S, DLF-S, DF-S, etc... F9 is the only one that really clicks offensively)

If a guy gets a yellow I untick tackle harder and sub if needed.

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