Making Instructins Work

[daleuk8]

15 minutes ago, llama3 said:

Good result - it's a balance between your style and making adjustments. I generally like possession football and pressing, but i'll sit deep and hit opponents on the break sometimes if I need to.

Would you press someone with a high line then?

[llama3]

1 hour ago, daleuk8 said:

Would you press someone with a high line then?

Well yeah, it's kind of critical to it. If you're leaving that much space in behind you, then you need to stop the opponents having time to pick a pass and make a run.

[facman]

And I always use the offside trap when pressing.

[daleuk8]

38 minutes ago, llama3 said:

Well yeah, it's kind of critical to it. If you're leaving that much space in behind you, then you need to stop the opponents having time to pick a pass and make a run.

I mean would you press if your opponents have a high line?

[llama3]

7 hours ago, daleuk8 said:

I mean would you press if your opponents have a high line?

Once again daleuk8 - it depends!

[facman]

11 hours ago, daleuk8 said:

I mean would you press if your opponents have a high line?

If my opponents are playing a high line, it is usually an indicator that they are confident of securing a result (i.e. they have a better squad/reputation than I do). So I tend to start quite defensively in these circumstances, and try to hit them on the break over the top. If this isn't working, and they are dominating the game, I may switch to a pressing game to see if I can unsettle them and wrest control of the football. If, on the other hand, I'm getting success 'over the top', I'll leave things as they are.

[luka_zg]

It would be nice if you could instruct your IF to cut inside occasionally instead of having them cutting inside even where there would be clear that hugging the line is logical thing to do. This really annoys me so much. So much open space on the wing but my IF will still cut inside and run himself in a wall of defenders. Why there isn't a role that mixes hugging the line with cutting inside I don't understand. Just make a player decide what is best in given situation.

[facman]

1 hour ago, luka_ said:

It would be nice if you could instruct your IF to cut inside occasionally instead of having them cutting inside even where there would be clear that hugging the line is logical thing to do. This really annoys me so much. So much open space on the wing but my IF will still cut inside and run himself in a wall of defenders. Why there isn't a role that mixes hugging the line with cutting inside I don't understand. Just make a player decide what is best in given situation.

Raumdeuter is the nearest thing to what you are suggesting I think. It has the PIs 'Roam from position' and 'move into channels' which will allow for drifting wide and cutting inside. It isn't exactly what you are looking for, but I think its the closest available.

[daleuk8]

On ‎16‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 18:38, herne79 said:

I was talking about adding creative freedom.  More Fluid team shapes add creative freedom, more Structured team shapes reduce it - Very Fluid is most, Highly Structured is least - so I was talking about increasing team shape further away from Highly Structured as an option.

Thank you for this advise.. Just came back to win 2-1 away from home. Although I've changed my shape again:) Started off with 4-2-3-1DM on counter-Structured. I was playing well but went a goal down. On the hour mark I changed to 4-2-3-1 Wide- Control-Fluid as I needed a goal and I had loads of possession but before that hit in I got the goal back from some great passing and moving. I then decided on the 80th min to move to attacking and very fluid and direct passing and with 2mins to go I grabbed the winner.

[Rashidi]

On 14/11/2016 at 21:53, daleuk8 said:

OK. Stupid question: What shape has natural triangles?

Alright, what you are looking for are passing triangles. For triangles to be effective you need the ball to go from one triangle to another and one player to also move into the new triangle.

This can be achieved in FM, it just requires you to choose the right balance of duties and roles. In order to create really nice passing moves you will need players to have good off the ball attributes.

[poobington]

This has been a really informative thread for me and has led me to actually playing matches on full and creating my own tactics. The way you have walked dale through his queries has been awesome

[daleuk8]

1 hour ago, poobington said:

This has been a really informative thread for me and has led me to actually playing matches on full and creating my own tactics. The way you have walked dale through his queries has been awesome

Yes it has been, which is what I was looking for. I've now gone back to my 4-2-3-1. Will update in a few days.

[Rashidi]

On 16/11/2016 at 23:10, daleuk8 said:

@llama3 @herne79

I've just played PSG at home. I'm Liverpool. Started with my standard set-up. I went 1-0 with a lucky goal. They were all over me. I noticed they were playing a high line, I went to counter, passed into space and direct passing, changed my fb-winger again..i won 3-0

I hope you are coming to terms with mentality Shape and roles. Like Herne explained when you go Fluid the team tend to be more creative not only that, they tend to deviate from their instructions. 

You will sometimes see them losing shape especially during transitions.

I will always recommend people use flexible as a shape at the start while they come to terms. When we start using structured shapes the players tend to find themselves in more space. Times like these you need to identify players who can distribute the ball over larger distances you will also need players who can take advantage of the shape by running into space.

In my latest video I went to structured shape with a deep dline played control and asked my front trip to close down much more. To increase pressure ineven man marked their fullbacks. 

This forced the AI to launch balls to isolated final third players which my players dealt with.

These kind of changes are CONDITIONAL and not the rule.

Take things a step at a time and post your pkms too. That way some of us can tak a look and spot things you may not have.

I like the part when you went direct passing in ur Liv win.

 

[daleuk8]

11 hours ago, Rashidi said:

I hope you are coming to terms with mentality Shape and roles. Like Herne explained when you go Fluid the team tend to be more creative not only that, they tend to deviate from their instructions. 

You will sometimes see them losing shape especially during transitions.

I will always recommend people use flexible as a shape at the start while they come to terms. When we start using structured shapes the players tend to find themselves in more space. Times like these you need to identify players who can distribute the ball over larger distances you will also need players who can take advantage of the shape by running into space.

In my latest video I went to structured shape with a deep dline played control and asked my front trip to close down much more. To increase pressure ineven man marked their fullbacks. 

This forced the AI to launch balls to isolated final third players which my players dealt with.

These kind of changes are CONDITIONAL and not the rule.

Take things a step at a time and post your pkms too. That way some of us can tak a look and spot things you may not have.

I like the part when you went direct passing in ur Liv win.

 

Thank you Rashidi, Yes I'm starting to get to terms with things. Something I should've done years ago:) Ok I will take a look at your video. I will try and post some PKM's aswell..

[daleuk8]

Ok Guys..

My new system..

PLAN A.

4-2-3-1Wide

                                                                                                         GK- Defend

                                                                      WB-Attack   DC- Defend  DC- Defend  WB- Support

                                                                                            CM- Defend   RPM- Support

                                                                        I/F- Support           A/P-Attack       I/F- Attack 

                                                                                                        CF- Support

TI's

Short Passing

Roam

Play out of defence

Work Ball Into Box

 

                                                                        

[daleuk8]

I have just played Rapid at home. They were playing a 4-4-2, as I had the extra man in the middle I felt I should be able to dominate that area and possession. I decided to lower the tempo to aid this- I was using a control mentality. Although I dominated the attempts Rapid still held more of the ball. At half time I decided to close down more to try and gain more of the ball. This didn't really work. Are my ideas the right thoughts? I did win 4-1, am I expecting to much?

[facman]

56 minutes ago, daleuk8 said:

I have just played Rapid at home. They were playing a 4-4-2, as I had the extra man in the middle I felt I should be able to dominate that area and possession. I decided to lower the tempo to aid this- I was using a control mentality. Although I dominated the attempts Rapid still held more of the ball. At half time I decided to close down more to try and gain more of the ball. This didn't really work. Are my ideas the right thoughts? I did win 4-1, am I expecting to much?

What is more important, winning or possession? I regularly win games with less than 50% possession. I won a game a season or two ago with less than 40% possession. Possession can be a means to an end, but is not an end in itself. The question to ask is 'what is the opposition doing with its possession?' If the answer is 'very little' then giving them lots of possession is not going to result in a threat to your goal. So long as I am threatening when I have the ball, I would happily lose the possession battle.

[daleuk8]

On ‎30‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 15:41, facman said:

What is more important, winning or possession? I regularly win games with less than 50% possession. I won a game a season or two ago with less than 40% possession. Possession can be a means to an end, but is not an end in itself. The question to ask is 'what is the opposition doing with its possession?' If the answer is 'very little' then giving them lots of possession is not going to result in a threat to your goal. So long as I am threatening when I have the ball, I would happily lose the possession battle.

This is true, I guess I'm slightly possession mad....

[daleuk8]

OK guys..

I am playing Leicester away, now I tend to play more reserved away from so maybe a standard mentality and a 4-4-1-1. Leicester are playing a 4-4-2, I've decided to stick with my 4-2-3-1 but on a standard mentality to try and push on there midfield, is my thinking correct?

[facman]

On 12/6/2016 at 19:25, daleuk8 said:

This is true, I guess I'm slightly possession mad....

Just thought I'd share an example - this is the last game I played in my long term Leeds save in FM16. We had only 39% possession, but had more shots on goal, twice as many shots on target, and 3 of those 7 were clear cut chances.

 

[daleuk8]

@faceman @herne79 @Rashidi @llama3

At the moment I'm playing:

RPM- MC-Defend and an AP-Attack in front of them in in either a 4-2-3-1/4-4-1-1.

If I need to reduce the gap between the AP and the two MC'S what kind of roles would I need to look at?

For example in my last game away at Stoke, I changed the RPM to DLP-Support to stop him roaming as I noticed the AP was to far a head of them both. I also noticed that my average position of my midfield were all over the place. I was playing my 4-4-1-1, it should still line up as a 4-2-3-1. My Wp, was almost right next to my AP along with the RPM.

[facman]

Having trouble visualising what you mean - could you post a screenshot?

[daleuk8]

On ‎10‎/‎12‎/‎2016 at 11:12, facman said:

Having trouble visualising what you mean - could you post a screenshot?

I am unable to post a screen shot at the moment.

 

[daleuk8]

@Rashidi @llama3 @herne79 @facman

Just noticed the CM-Defend closes down by default. Was it like this in FM16? I have changed it to DLP-Defend to see if that makes it more solid? Also noticed that BWM has close down much more and hold position, does this not contradict itself?

[llama3]

1 minute ago, daleuk8 said:

@Rashidi @llama3 @herne79 @facman

Just noticed the CM-Defend closes down by default. Was it like this in FM16? I have changed it to DLP-Defend to see if that makes it more solid? Also noticed that BWM has close down much more and hold position, does this not contradict itself?

Yes the CM(D) has always had close down more by default.

You could always just change the instruction to close down less instead for exactly the same effect defensively.

Hold Position refers to offensive behaviour - i.e. not pushing forward when in possession.

[daleuk8]

14 minutes ago, llama3 said:

Yes the CM(D) has always had close down more by default.

You could always just change the instruction to close down less instead for exactly the same effect defensively.

Hold Position refers to offensive behaviour - i.e. not pushing forward when in possession.

I don't think you can change the instruction?

Ok thank you.

So if you had a STC with hold position, would he look to play the ball instantly?

[llama3]

38 minutes ago, daleuk8 said:

So if you had a STC with hold position, would he look to play the ball instantly?

That depends on things like tempo and passing options

[daleuk8]

13 minutes ago, llama3 said:

That depends on things like tempo and passing options

OK.

In a 4-2-3-1, I'm playing a CM-Defend along side a BBM. Would you consider changing the CM role so it enables close down less?

I'm just interested as isn't it a good starting point to have a sitter? With both closing down that leaves you open?

[Rashidi]

You can still use the CM(S) and get the same effect as a CM(D) you just need to PI him now.

[daleuk8]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

You can still use the CM(S) and get the same effect as a CM(D) you just need to PI him now.

Wouldn't CM(S) Mentality be higher?

[daleuk8]

@llama3 @Rashidi

When using roam from position as a TI, what actually happens? which players are asked to roam more?

[daleuk8]

@Rashidi I've been reading your guides on your site, something I should've done a long time ago. I have a few questions:

 

1. When would you look to bypass the midfield?

2. A players duty has it's own mentality, does it alter the players creative freedom? I.E. Would an Attack minded duty have more freedom than a Support duty? I am just interested because we can alter the teams framework by shape but I just wondered what if we just to give more freedom to one player? (sorry if that is an obvious question).

[herne79]

On ‎30‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 14:31, daleuk8 said:

Ok Guys..

My new system..

PLAN A.

4-2-3-1Wide

                                                                                                         GK- Defend

                                                                      WB-Attack   DC- Defend  DC- Defend  WB- Support

                                                                                            CM- Defend   RPM- Support

                                                                        I/F- Support           A/P-Attack       I/F- Attack 

                                                                                                        CF- Support

TI's

Short Passing

Roam

Play out of defence

Work Ball Into Box

 

                                                                        

You sent me a PM asking how play against a Burnley team using a 442DM formation.  No more info than that, I assume they were sitting deep, very defensive, parking the bus?

Also assuming you are still using the same system as above (don't know the mentality/team shape though), essentially all your attack is running into a very congested central area patrolled by two central defenders and a two defensive midfielders.  You need to create space, or have a creative genius moment.

Changing an IF to a winger (for example) may help to stretch the play a bit, pulling the defence wider so creating space in the middle.  Maybe give your striker an attack duty so that your AP gets more wiggle room.  Or change the AP role/duty.  Lowering mentality so that you sit deeper can help pull a stubborn defence out.  Altering team shape to something more fluid can add creativity.

These are all options that may work (and more besides), assuming that my assumptions (if I can put it like that ) are correct.

[daleuk8]

15 hours ago, herne79 said:

You sent me a PM asking how play against a Burnley team using a 442DM formation.  No more info than that, I assume they were sitting deep, very defensive, parking the bus?

Also assuming you are still using the same system as above (don't know the mentality/team shape though), essentially all your attack is running into a very congested central area patrolled by two central defenders and a two defensive midfielders.  You need to create space, or have a creative genius moment.

Changing an IF to a winger (for example) may help to stretch the play a bit, pulling the defence wider so creating space in the middle.  Maybe give your striker an attack duty so that your AP gets more wiggle room.  Or change the AP role/duty.  Lowering mentality so that you sit deeper can help pull a stubborn defence out.  Altering team shape to something more fluid can add creativity.

These are all options that may work (and more besides), assuming that my assumptions (if I can put it like that ) are correct.

Thank you. And yes still using the same system. I will remember this for next time. When trying to judge if a team is very defensive, what am I look for? Obviously the sitting deep I can get from average positions. Are there any other stats I could look at to help with this?

[herne79]

A lack of attempts on goal.

But really just watch the action.  When your opponent has the ball what do they with it?  Make fast penetrating runs or just plonk it around slowly in their own half?  How isolated is their striker?  And when you have the ball, are they holding a deep defensive line without much (any) closing down?

[daleuk8]

3 minutes ago, herne79 said:

A lack of attempts on goal.

But really just watch the action.  When your opponent has the ball what do they with it?  Make fast penetrating runs or just plonk it around slowly in their own half?  How isolated is their striker?  And when you have the ball, are they holding a deep defensive line without much (any) closing down?

Ok thank you.

I'm currently trying to create a 4-3-3. (Liverpool fan)

 

                                                                                                  GK- Defend

                                                   WB-Attack          DC- Defend        DC- Defend    WB- Attack

                                                                                                   DM- Defend

                                                                                         BBM          CM- Support

                                                                      

I am struggling to decide on my front 3? as both MC's are on support, I feel the middle SC should be on an attack duty. I'm struggling with the other two. Also do you feel this shape could be used as a possession tactic?

 

[herne79]

If you check Cleon's Possession thread, you'll see he used the 4123DM formation so yes, it can be used as the basis of a possession tactic (Barcelona might also agree ).

If that's what you're looking to do, I'd start there and try to understand some of the principles that Cleon is getting across (link is in the Guides sticky at the top of the forum).

I'll also add to always be aware of the default PIs that each of your chosen roles come with.  eg., Wingback Attack with Cross More Often - good or bad for possession?  (I'm taking it a little out of context here to demonstrate the point, as WB-A can be fine in the right set up).

[daleuk8]

4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

If you check Cleon's Possession thread, you'll see he used the 4123DM formation so yes, it can be used as the basis of a possession tactic (Barcelona might also agree ).

If that's what you're looking to do, I'd start there and try to understand some of the principles that Cleon is getting across (link is in the Guides sticky at the top of the forum).

I'll also add to always be aware of the default PIs that each of your chosen roles come with.  eg., Wingback Attack with Cross More Often - good or bad for possession?  (I'm taking it a little out of context here to demonstrate the point, as WB-A can be fine in the right set up).

Thank you. I keep flipping between formations this year. I should really settle on one.

[daleuk8]

@herne79 @Rashidi

 

4-3-3

Counter

Structured

 

                                                                                                               GK- Defend

                                                WB-A       DC- D     DC- D    WB- A

                                                                          DM- D

                                                                 BBM-S   CM-S

                                             DLF- S         ADF- A     DLF- S

TI'S- Get stuck in, play narrower, more direct passing, clear ball to flanks and close down less

[herne79]

I'm not saying it's good or bad, just a couple of questions:

- You are using a narrow formation with a mentality that decreases width.  Why Play Narrower?

- With More Direct Passing, Clear Ball to Flanks, no wingers and a deep defensive line, who on your flanks will be picking up the ball?

- If you are aiming for a possession tactic, did you read the thread I mentioned above?

[daleuk8]

20 hours ago, herne79 said:

I'm not saying it's good or bad, just a couple of questions:

- You are using a narrow formation with a mentality that decreases width.  Why Play Narrower?

- With More Direct Passing, Clear Ball to Flanks, no wingers and a deep defensive line, who on your flanks will be picking up the ball?

- If you are aiming for a possession tactic, did you read the thread I mentioned above?

I'll work backwards,

 

This was a counter system, for stronger teams/away games. My possession tactic will have the same formation but different instructions and starting on a Control strategy.

Your second point: This is something I got from rashidi that a 4-3-3 was a good counter formation and the Clear ball to flank would mean the forwards would pick up the ball?

The play narrow bit was something I read from cleon, basically if you have a narrow shape why wouldn't try and use that? Maybe I've not understood correctly? Any other advice would be great.

 

[daleuk8]

@Cleon @Rashidi Would be great to get your advice about the above points.

[herne79]

How's it actually working out for you?  When you clear the ball to the flanks do your players pick it up?  Do you have enough space and movement with your width settings?  Anything else not related to the above points you've noticed?

btw, if you keep restricting yourself to asking specific people you may be missing out on advice from other very knowledgeable people.

[daleuk8]

@herne79 Sorry, I'm not trying to single people out or stop people from giving advice.

In the first few games I've played they seem to pick up the ball well, yes the width is something I've kept on eye on, in one of my games I knocked it off as I need to try and stretch the play a bit more. I have not used my possession variant yet, I am just about to play my first game with that.

[daleuk8]

POSSESSION VARIANT

 

                                                                             GK- Defend

                                                            WB-A     CD-D     CD-D     FB-S

                                                                       BBM-S     CM-S

                                                        IF-S                                   AP-S

                                                                             ADF-A

The IF is asked to sit narrow.

Team Instructions:

Pass it short

Play out of defence

Work ball into box   

[daleuk8]

I have just played Palace with this. In the first half I played well had lots of possession, I went in 1-0 up.

In the 2nd half I wanted more going forward, I changed my CM support to attack, Palace then got a man sent off. I noticed that they left there right side without a winger, they were playing a 4-4-2, I decided to overload that right side.

I changed my FB to a WB-Attack, I changed my AP to a Winger Attack (To stretch them) I then exploited the right side.

I won 3-0. Are my ideas on the right track?