Making Instructins Work

[daleuk8]

I've been meaning to ask for advice for a while now. I want to create a 4-4-2 looking like this:

                                                                 GK- Defend

                        FB- Support   DC- Defend  DC- Defend  FB- Attack

                        W/Attack        BBM- Support  CM- Defend  W/Support

                                              DLF- Support      ADF- Attack

 

Now where I struggle is instructions: I've read many posts by different users offering different advice. For example one user suggests a 4-4-2 works best as a direct system. Others believe it can be used with more support duties, my two questions there are: 1: Would that make it more possession based? 2: Would to many Support roles unbalance the team?

Now going with a direct system- Would it be best to stick to Standard and Attacking mentalities? I always worry starting with attack leaves you no where to go. So lets say I start with Standard.

My thoughts for instructions for a direct system are this- TI'S- Direct Passing, Higher Tempo, Pass into Space and Exploit the Wings? I would then decide on high or low block depending on the situation.

My next question is: Can/how can I make a 4-4-2 into a defensive tactic for trickier games?

Is it wise to play a low block with a 4-4-2? I would consider dropping my CM's into the DM positions.

I would go to a Counter mentality- Again I struggle with TI's, I would consider going to Shorter Passing? Is this wise in a 4-4-2? I would drop Higher Tempo but I struggle with replacing them.. Do I need to?

I really hope people can help, I feel this is the one thing holding me back creating solid tactics.. 

[llama3]

A 4-4-2 is the most balanced system you can use to be honest. It's built on 5 pairings and relationships:

• Central Defence
• Central Midfield
• Strikers
• Wide Men (x 2)

You can play it direct, possession, pressing, sitting, whatever - so pretty much - how do you want to play? What is your squad capable of? It's a very open question at this stage.

[daleuk8]

12 minutes ago, llama3 said:

A 4-4-2 is the most balanced system you can use to be honest. It's built on 5 pairings and relationships:

• Central Defence
• Central Midfield
• Strikers
• Wide Men (x 2)

You can play it direct, possession, pressing, sitting, whatever - so pretty much - how do you want to play? What is your squad capable of? It's a very open question at this stage.

OK, I suppose to start with I'd like a direct attacking style. Like 90's Man u? What about my Counter style? When I've tried in the past my counter system tends to sit to deep. When accessing my squad what am I looking at? How do I know the attributes for the roles?

[llama3]

I would try reading The Hand of God's Lines and Diamonds guide - he has a section where he discusses styles and how to achieve them in there. The roles you have outlined are pretty balanced. Obviously if you want to play a direct attacking style your passing range and tempo should reflect this too. Direct and counter attacking aren't quite the same either - Klopp's Dortmund and Liverpool press very heavily off the ball, but move it very quickly as soon as they win it back.

[daleuk8]

12 minutes ago, llama3 said:

I would try reading The Hand of God's Lines and Diamonds guide - he has a section where he discusses styles and how to achieve them in there. The roles you have outlined are pretty balanced. Obviously if you want to play a direct attacking style your passing range and tempo should reflect this too. Direct and counter attacking aren't quite the same either - Klopp's Dortmund and Liverpool press very heavily off the ball, but move it very quickly as soon as they win it back.

Ok I will take a look. Would you advise higher tempo with counter then with direct passing?

[llama3]

Well what I am saying is - it doesn't have to be Counter. If you play at a higher mentality, your tempo naturally raises with it, what you need to decide is - is that tempo high enough, or do you want to raise it higher still?

[daleuk8]

31 minutes ago, llama3 said:

Well what I am saying is - it doesn't have to be Counter. If you play at a higher mentality, your tempo naturally raises with it, what you need to decide is - is that tempo high enough, or do you want to raise it higher still?

OK. Briefly read THOGS guide, In the past people have suggested if you close down a lot then you should press high? Or is it the other way round, I can't remember. From what I've read you can press heavy whilst sitting deep? Also on the Counter strategy, other users have suggested not to higher tempo due it being at maximum in possession?

[llama3]

Yes if you press heavily, your defensive line should sit higher. If you sit high but don't press you're gifting space in behind. 

You can still press a little if you're a touch deeper, but it does come with some risks - it's about doing it at the right time, unsettling your opponents before they can get into a rhythm and then attacking the space they vacate.

[RTHerringbone]

I genuinely believe that you over think this game dale. Just focus on how you want your team to play. You've said you want to play like 90's Man Utd? Think how they played and try to recreate it. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Don't start muddying the waters by contemplating a "counter style" too, just do one thing at a time.

 

[Cleon]

5 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

I genuinely believe that you over think this game dale. Just focus on how you want your team to play. You've said you want to play like 90's Man Utd? Think how they played and try to recreate it. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Don't start muddying the waters by contemplating a "counter style" too, just do one thing at a time.

 

I'd just come to basically say something along the same like as this. Ignore what you've read, ignore what other people say and just focus on what you want. Start with the shape and no TI's or PI's, then gradually add them to make the player more suited to what you want and something you are happy with. I feel you're currently working back to front and have the idea that you must use some TI's without really understanding how the base you use (just the shape and roles nothing else) all interact with each other. 

[daleuk8]

10 minutes ago, Cleon said:

I'd just come to basically say something along the same like as this. Ignore what you've read, ignore what other people say and just focus on what you want. Start with the shape and no TI's or PI's, then gradually add them to make the player more suited to what you want and something you are happy with. I feel you're currently working back to front and have the idea that you must use some TI's without really understanding how the base you use (just the shape and roles nothing else) all interact with each other. 

 

18 minutes ago, RTHerringbone said:

I genuinely believe that you over think this game dale. Just focus on how you want your team to play. You've said you want to play like 90's Man Utd? Think how they played and try to recreate it. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Don't start muddying the waters by contemplating a "counter style" too, just do one thing at a time.

 

 

29 minutes ago, llama3 said:

Yes if you press heavily, your defensive line should sit higher. If you sit high but don't press you're gifting space in behind. 

You can still press a little if you're a touch deeper, but it does come with some risks - it's about doing it at the right time, unsettling your opponents before they can get into a rhythm and then attacking the space they vacate.

Ok, I will go back to basics and start by watching games in full. I've explained to cleon before I struggle to spot things in games. I will come back for more advice as I get into thIngs.

[Cleon]

2 minutes ago, daleuk8 said:

 

 

Ok, I will go back to basics and start by watching games in full. I've explained to cleon before I struggle to spot things in games. I will come back for more advice as I get into thIngs.

 

This should be easy to do because all you're wanting to see is if the players are playing like you expected and hoped. You're looking at how the players play rather than trying to spot tactical issues/mistakes etc. Anyone can see if the team is playing as fast they want. Anyone can see if the players are playing the kind of passes they expected to see and so on.

[daleuk8]

11 minutes ago, Cleon said:

This should be easy to do because all you're wanting to see is if the players are playing like you expected and hoped. You're looking at how the players play rather than trying to spot tactical issues/mistakes etc. Anyone can see if the team is playing as fast they want. Anyone can see if the players are playing the kind of passes they expected to see and so on.

Very true. I will look at things tonight. 

[westy8chimp]

Looks like you've been influenced by other tactical threads before creating your 442.. Left side: FB Attack, WG Support, ADF Attack and then done the opposite on your left... reeks of having read too much about 'in between the lines' and not occupying the same space.

Are you talking early 90s or late ... I'd argue neither really fit the roles you've selected. If you want to recreate ... start with putting people in their best fit... it may not work but as Cleon says you then tinker with the instructions to try and make them act the way you want. Lets say early 90s...

Schmeichel - GK Defend

Iriwn/Parker FB (l)/FB(r) - Def (maybe support, but id argue defend as very few goals and majority of assists from wingers)

Pallister/Bruce - Limited Defenders

Kanchelskis/Sharpe - Wingers Attack

Keane/Ince - Arguably both box to boxers or ball winning midfielders hard to gauge. they certainly weren't playmakers but both scored at a decent rate for CMs... CM Support

Hughes/Cantona - Cantona DLF Attack Hughes TM Support

 

How did they play as a team - Attacking, Very Structured... High Tempo, Very Wide, Normal Defensive line, Normal Closing down, Exploit the flanks,

And individuals - GK - distribute to flanks

Wingers Dribble more, run at defence, cross more.

 

See how you get on - in essence you want quick wingers putting in lots of crosses in a direct style i.e. few transition phases .. get it out wide, cross it in.

[daleuk8]

46 minutes ago, Cleon said:

This should be easy to do because all you're wanting to see is if the players are playing like you expected and hoped. You're looking at how the players play rather than trying to spot tactical issues/mistakes etc. Anyone can see if the team is playing as fast they want. Anyone can see if the players are playing the kind of passes they expected to see and so on.

I struggle to go against the theory of playing between the lines and having the same duties on the same side 

[daleuk8]

On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 14:00, llama3 said:

Yes if you press heavily, your defensive line should sit higher. If you sit high but don't press you're gifting space in behind. 

You can still press a little if you're a touch deeper, but it does come with some risks - it's about doing it at the right time, unsettling your opponents before they can get into a rhythm and then attacking the space they vacate.

I'm creating a 4-1-4-1 and a 4-3-3 wide, in my 4-1-4-1 I use a Counter mentality, I only had 3 TI's.

Work into box- I don't want to waste chances.

Stay on Feet- I don't want to rush challenges.

Push up slightly- I read somewhere using a DM drops your d-line? I found in certain games I was to deep.

When pushed up slightly, would you advice closing down less?

 

 

[daleuk8]

On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 14:43, Cleon said:

This should be easy to do because all you're wanting to see is if the players are playing like you expected and hoped. You're looking at how the players play rather than trying to spot tactical issues/mistakes etc. Anyone can see if the team is playing as fast they want. Anyone can see if the players are playing the kind of passes they expected to see and so on.

 

On ‎04‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 14:11, RTHerringbone said:

I genuinely believe that you over think this game dale. Just focus on how you want your team to play. You've said you want to play like 90's Man Utd? Think how they played and try to recreate it. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Don't start muddying the waters by contemplating a "counter style" too, just do one thing at a time.

 

Sorry guys I've quoted you because I wanted you to see it. You'll see from my post above I've changed formation. I need some help, I'm using my 4-1-4-1 away at Stoke. I'm on Counter.

Ti's:

Push up slightly

Close down less

Stay on feet

Now I've noticed in a passage of play Stoke are near my goal and my 3 CM's are all closing down one player. They are: Lucas-Anchor Man, Henderson- A/P-Attack and Can B2B. Should they be doing this? If not any advice on what I'm doing wrong and changing it?

 

[HTC]

On 11/4/2016 at 16:11, RTHerringbone said:

I genuinely believe that you over think this game dale. Just focus on how you want your team to play. You've said you want to play like 90's Man Utd? Think how they played and try to recreate it. Doesn't have to be more complicated than that. Don't start muddying the waters by contemplating a "counter style" too, just do one thing at a time.

 

Thats exactly my problem in the game. I dont know how to emulate specific styles. Its not that i want 100% emulation, even with (lets say) 30% i will be happy.

The reason i buy this game is to emulate Porto's Mourinho and Markarian's Panathinaikos. Thats the styles i like.

 

 

We need a guide to this  How to translate tackles / pressure / width / passing / defensive line etc.

 

I feel comfortable to distinguish roles and formations, but not team and individual instructions.

[herne79]

dale, if you've changed to a 4-1-4-1 and want help, you need to tell us your detailed system again and the problems you are having.

Also, what type of football are you trying to create?  You mentioned Man Utd above, is that still the case?

[FestyF]

Hi daleuk8, before you invest further time into your 4-4-2, beware that it is unplayable in the current state of the match engine. See this thread:

Just wanted to help save your time and efforts, thanks.

[daleuk8]

On ‎12‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 04:53, FestyF said:

Hi daleuk8, before you invest further time into your 4-4-2, beware that it is unplayable in the current state of the match engine. See this thread:

Just wanted to help save your time and efforts, thanks.

Ok thanks.

[daleuk8]

On ‎11‎/‎11‎/‎2016 at 22:12, herne79 said:

dale, if you've changed to a 4-1-4-1 and want help, you need to tell us your detailed system again and the problems you are having.

Also, what type of football are you trying to create?  You mentioned Man Utd above, is that still the case?

Hi I wanted to add screen shots,

How do I take a screen shot? Where do they save to?

 

I have a plan A/B.

Plan A is:

 

4-5-1

Control

 

                                                                                                           GK-Defend

                                                                      WB/Attack  DC-Defend  DC-Defend  FB/Support

                                                                                                           A-Defend

                                                                                      BBM-Support    A/P-Attack

                                                                  A/P-Support                                     I/F-Attack

                                                                                                      CF-Support

TI's

Lower Tempo

Short Passing

Roam From Position

Close Down Much More

Work Ball into Box.

 

Plan B.

4-5-1 Flat

Counter.           

 

                                                                                                               GK-Defend

                                                                                  WB-Attack  DC-Defend  DC-Defend  FB-Defend

                                                                                                                       A-Defend    

                                                                                  W/P-Support  BBM-Support  A/P-Attack  W-Attack

                                                                                                                         CF-Support

TI's

Work Ball In To Box

Stay on Feet

Push Up                                                                         

                                                                                                               

[herne79]

On 12/11/2016 at 04:53, FestyF said:

Hi daleuk8, before you invest further time into your 4-4-2, beware that it is unplayable in the current state of the match engine. See this thread:

Just wanted to help save your time and efforts, thanks.

@FestyF I've politely asked you to stop posting this nonsense, now I'm telling you.

The 4-4-2 is not unplayable, stop spreading myths.  Final warning.

@daleuk8 ignore this "advice".  If you read through that thread you'll notice that SI themselves (and myself) have replied to FestyF saying that the game is not "unplayable" and he/she is completely over exaggerating.  For some reason FestyF persists in ignoring this and continues to post his/her own incorrect opinion and so unduly worrying people.

An issue has been raised with SI and SI are reviewing.  Some positioning of players at ML/R could perhaps be improved, but it's nowhere near "unplayable".  That's all there is to it.

[Overmars]

Player suitability is important too. Your forwards need to have aerial ability and strength if you are going to play this style. Having a tremendous BBM with a nose for the net and endless energy is going to be a huge advantage. Make sure your holding central midfielder is disciplined with high positioning and no reckless player preferred moves. Your wide players can be simple defensive fullbacks with attacking wingers or a mixture of both. It all depends on who you have in your squad, and so far you haven't confirmed where your strengths and weaknesses lie.

But as a general rule, I'm not a fan of playing a slow/possession style with a formation that doesn't have natural passing triangles in its base shape.

[vasilli07]

11 hours ago, daleuk8 said:

Hi I wanted to add screen shots,

How do I take a screen shot? Where do they save to?                                                                       

Alt + f9. It will be saved to your SI folder called screenshots.

[daleuk8]

13 hours ago, herne79 said:

@FestyF I've politely asked you to stop posting this nonsense, now I'm telling you.

The 4-4-2 is not unplayable, stop spreading myths.  Final warning.

@daleuk8 ignore this "advice".  If you read through that thread you'll notice that SI themselves (and myself) have replied to FestyF saying that the game is not "unplayable" and he/she is completely over exaggerating.  For some reason FestyF persists in ignoring this and continues to post his/her own incorrect opinion and so unduly worrying people.

An issue has been raised with SI and SI are reviewing.  Some positioning of players at ML/R could perhaps be improved, but it's nowhere near "unplayable".  That's all there is to it.

Yeah I had a quick skim through. No major problems.

[daleuk8]

11 hours ago, vasilli07 said:

Alt + f9. It will be saved to your SI folder called screenshots.

Thank you.

[daleuk8]

13 hours ago, Overmars said:

Player suitability is important too. Your forwards need to have aerial ability and strength if you are going to play this style. Having a tremendous BBM with a nose for the net and endless energy is going to be a huge advantage. Make sure your holding central midfielder is disciplined with high positioning and no reckless player preferred moves. Your wide players can be simple defensive fullbacks with attacking wingers or a mixture of both. It all depends on who you have in your squad, and so far you haven't confirmed where your strengths and weaknesses lie.

But as a general rule, I'm not a fan of playing a slow/possession style with a formation that doesn't have natural passing triangles in its base shape.

OK. Stupid question: What shape has natural triangles?

[facman]

1 hour ago, daleuk8 said:

OK. Stupid question: What shape has natural triangles?

Anything that looks like the players are at the apexes of a triangle on the tactics screen  (e.g. DM and 2 MC). I personally don't subscribe to the natural triangle approach though as PPMs, roles and duties alter the positions dramatically from what is on the tactics screen to what happens on the pitch. Jumping ahead to my tactic below, the are loads of triangles created on the pitch: F9, AF and BBM; BWM, WM, F9; WP, DR, AF; WM, DL, BWM etc etc, none of which are obvious from looking at the tactics screen.

Anyway, although I'm playing FM16 not 17 (simply because I'm having too much fun with my current save to stop playing FM16 yet), I have been using 4-4-2 extensively in my current save (for 3 1/2 seasons) and have had good success (I've taken Leeds from the Championship to being a top 10 team in the Premiership, back-to-back Capital One Cup finals, and the knockout stages of the Europa League). Plenty of people will tell you that 4-4-2 was unplayable in FM16, just as they'll tell you it is unplayable in FM17. They are wrong!

Looking back to your OP, your back 4 and midfield were very similar to where I started with my 4-4-2. My current tactic looks like this:

although I make some amendments based on players e.g. one of my MR players plays as a winger by default, and my main striker plays as a CF(A) rather than AF(A).

PIs - GK distributes to DCs, WM(S) cuts inside with ball, tackles harder and sits narrower. OIs - tight marking on AMR/L.

The base mentality is Defensive, but here's the thing, I learnt a lot from reading and watching Rashidi play FM. His viewpoint is that rather than making tactical formation changes during a match, you can achieve almost anything with the same basic formation just by varying mentality and shape, with the odd role or duty change to taste. I've taken this to heart recently, and in my current season have played the above tactic with Contain, Defensive, Standard and Control mentalities, sometimes all of them at different points in the same match! Occasionally I will make a role change (such as my BWM to a CM(D), or WP to a winger - this last one is the most common), but most of the time I don't have to.

The proof is in the pudding, as they say, so has this new approach helped my results this season? Well, at the end of January 2019, I have reached the Capital One Cup final, the knockout stages of the Europa League having conceded only 1 goal in 10 European games, and am sitting 4th in the Premiership having lost only once in the last 4 months, conceding the fewest goals (16 in 22 games) in the Premiership. I don't even have that good a squad by comparison to the rest of the league, and was only predicted 8th at the start of the season.

Why am I writing all of this? SImply put, don't do what I used to do out of a misconception of what is and isn't possible within the game. Don't create 'a Control tactic' with one formation, then 'a counter tactic' with another formation, etc. I used to do that, thinking that I couldn't play a possession game unless I went 4-1-2-3 DM wide, our counterattacking unless I played 4-1-4-1. You can play almost any type of football with almost any type of formation (within the bounds of common sense), simply by tailoring the mentality, shape, roles and duties. So my advice would be to do what @RTHerringbone and @Cleon suggest in posts 9 and 10, and go back to basics. I started to do that 3 1/2 seasons ago with Leeds, and haven't looked back since. My days of downloading tactics are well and truly over!

Good luck!

EDIT - if you do want any more information about the tactic above, with an analysis of how it plays on the pitch, please see https://community.sigames.com/topic/364527-developing-my-4-4-2/?do=findComment&comment=10508634 this post and the one below it. The whole thread is a great read, too, I only joined in the conversation right at the end.

 

[daleuk8]

Ok new season- New approach (trying to listen guys) @Cleon @RTHerringbone @llama3 @herne79

4-4-2

Flexible

Standard- Start with every game (adjust accordingly)

No PI's or TI's same as above

 

                                                                                                                          GK- Defend

                                                                                  FB-Support  DC-Defend  DC-Defend  FB-Attack

                                                                                  W/Attack  BBM-Support  BWM-Defend  W/Support

                                                                                                              DLF-Support  AF-Attack

 

Beat Swansea 3-0

Beat Man City 2-0 Away

 

In Swansea game I just changed to defensive for the last 20mins, Man City I stayed on Standard, but I noticed one of there MC's had a lot of the ball and was controlling things, I decided to close him down and push up. Was my thinking correct or any other advice?  

[llama3]

@daleuk8 - only you can tell me if it was correct or not - the question to ask you is, did it stop the player controlling the game? If so, it worked.

As ever there are different ways to do it - you can sit deep, let him have the ball but make it hard to play through you, or you can press him and reduce his time on the ball. 

[cfkllasdfaslkdfj]

@facman

And what about team shape? When do you prefer to go structured/flexible or very fluid? And what events fire you up to change mentality?

[daleuk8]

1 hour ago, llama3 said:

@daleuk8 - only you can tell me if it was correct or not - the question to ask you is, did it stop the player controlling the game? If so, it worked.

As ever there are different ways to do it - you can sit deep, let him have the ball but make it hard to play through you, or you can press him and reduce his time on the ball. 

It did slightly, although I don't fell they closed him down enough?

[daleuk8]

I'm playing Newcastle, I've noticed that most of my crosses our being intercepted, this is not by challenges, this seems to be because the cross isn't going anywhere near the front 2? it looks like there's lack of movement with the front two. My first thought is asking them to roam more? Anything else I can look at?

[llama3]

20 minutes ago, daleuk8 said:

I'm playing Newcastle, I've noticed that most of my crosses our being intercepted, this is not by challenges, this seems to be because the cross isn't going anywhere near the front 2? it looks like there's lack of movement with the front two. My first thought is asking them to roam more? Anything else I can look at?

A real life average crossing success rate is about 20%. So you'd expect most to be intercepted. As for the crossing it could be affected by a number of things:

• Delivery (floated, whipped or low) - did it suit your front 2?
• Did your wide man have time and space to swing in the cross without much pressure?
• Why are the forwards both not moving much? What are their attributes like for movement and intelligence?
• How good are your crossers?
• Do you take too long to get the cross in? If it's not hit until late, their defence will be more organised and have time to defend against it.

57 minutes ago, daleuk8 said:

It did slightly, although I don't fell they closed him down enough?

Why? Were they too far away to start with? Were they outnumbered in midfield? Bear in mind if you have a midfield pair against a 3 - you're out numbered. So if you press too much against good opposition they'll just pass it round you.

[daleuk8]

49 minutes ago, llama3 said:

A real life average crossing success rate is about 20%. So you'd expect most to be intercepted. As for the crossing it could be affected by a number of things:

• Delivery (floated, whipped or low) - did it suit your front 2?
• Did your wide man have time and space to swing in the cross without much pressure?
• Why are the forwards both not moving much? What are their attributes like for movement and intelligence?
• How good are your crossers?
• Do you take too long to get the cross in? If it's not hit until late, their defence will be more organised and have time to defend against it.

Why? Were they too far away to start with? Were they outnumbered in midfield? Bear in mind if you have a midfield pair against a 3 - you're out numbered. So if you press too much against good opposition they'll just pass it round you.

Ok thank you, this is what I needed. Attributes look ok. Thinking about it, it was more than likely the delivery as most were floated.

Regards to your second point- Do you think it would've been better to back off?

[facman]

14 hours ago, cfkllasdfaslkdfj said:

@facman

And what about team shape? When do you prefer to go structured/flexible or very fluid? And what events fire you up to change mentality?

As far as mentality changes go, it can be a number of things that provide the catalyst: high possession but low number of shots can be an indication that I'm sitting too deep with the ball and need to push on and take more risks; too many through balls being played over my D-line can be an indication that I need to drop back more, etc.

Sometimes there is a choice - if the opposition are playing through me too much do I drop more defensive to hold them or do I get more adventurous to try and compete for the ball higher up the pitch? That usually depends on the quality of the opposition strikers.

Shape, on the other hand is a different beast altogether. Do I need to get more compact to make myself harder to break down? Go more Fluid. Do I need to spread out to give more depth to my play (if I am dominating possession but my players are all clustered around the box)? Go more Structured.

Be aware though that you might need to use the 'Be more creative/disciplined shouts to counteract or reinforce creativity changes due to shape.

in general though, a high press will have me going V.Fluid, a defensive but high tempo game will see me use Fluid, with more balanced styles of play may see me go Flexible. With 4-4-2 I tend not to use Structured, but I have used Control/Structured very effectively with a 4-1-2-3 DM wide in a previous Everton save.

EDIT - regarding Shape, forgot to add that changing shape will affect player transitions (it was late, that's my excuse!). In a more Structured system fewer defensive support players will support the attack and attacking support players support the defence, whereas in a more fluid system personnel will contribute more to all phases of play. Sometimes, you want your players to move around as a group, other times you want your defensive support players to stay deeper.

[llama3]

10 hours ago, daleuk8 said:

Regards to your second point- Do you think it would've been better to back off?

I haven't seen your match. I cannot answer that. You can though - watch it back and see if the player was quieter or not. There are so many factors regarding pressing and shape - I can't give a yes/no answer on it.

[daleuk8]

4 hours ago, llama3 said:

I haven't seen your match. I cannot answer that. You can though - watch it back and see if the player was quieter or not. There are so many factors regarding pressing and shape - I can't give a yes/no answer on it.

He was slightly quieter.

[daleuk8]

5 hours ago, llama3 said:

I haven't seen your match. I cannot answer that. You can though - watch it back and see if the player was quieter or not. There are so many factors regarding pressing and shape - I can't give a yes/no answer on it.

I'm playing Derby at home, they are playing a flat 5-4-1, I've had a lot of the ball. Do you think I need to drop back to create more space?

[herne79]

It might work.  Alternatively perhaps you may need some additional creativity from either switching up team shape, changing a role or two and/or subbing on a more creative player.  Then again stretching the opposition defence by playing wider may help.  Or slowing down the tempo to try to create a golden opportunity.  Or some/all of the above.

Probably not what you want to hear, but there are all sorts of options which may or may not work given a particular case.

[llama3]

16 minutes ago, daleuk8 said:

I'm playing Derby at home, they are playing a flat 5-4-1, I've had a lot of the ball. Do you think I need to drop back to create more space?

 

4 minutes ago, herne79 said:

It might work.  Alternatively perhaps you may need some additional creativity from either switching up team shape, changing a role or two and/or subbing on a more creative player.  Then again stretching the opposition defence by playing wider may help.  Or slowing down the tempo to try to create a golden opportunity.  Or some/all of the above.

Probably not what you want to hear, but there are all sorts of options which may or may not work given a particular case.

Exactly. So for instance I played Burnley away recently. They were sat in a 4-2DM-2-1-1 formation (basically like a defensive 4-4-1-1) - so I did the following; played Xhaka and Cazorla in central midfield, as I don't need a specialist holding midfielder like Coquelin or Elneny - I played Ramsey on the right instead of Walcott, as Ramsey drifting in with Bellerin in the overlap means I can exploit pockets of space wide to get in behind the defence. I'm not likely to play through both holding midfielders of Burnley, but using the width to stretch Burnley was vital. I won 2-0, helped by a red card for Defour after half an hour with the scores at 0-0. When I went 1-0 up, I gradually became more cautious to protect the lead, knowing I could exploit space on the counter attack. I brought on Coquelin to add some defensive nous in midfield, Giroud to help hold the ball up in attack and Walcott for pace on the counter. I scored a late 2nd when a Giroud knockdown was smashed in by Alexis. It's not just taking a lead it's game management too, knowing when to defend and when to attack. 

[daleuk8]

10 minutes ago, herne79 said:

It might work.  Alternatively perhaps you may need some additional creativity from either switching up team shape, changing a role or two and/or subbing on a more creative player.  Then again stretching the opposition defence by playing wider may help.  Or slowing down the tempo to try to create a golden opportunity.  Or some/all of the above.

Probably not what you want to hear, but there are all sorts of options which may or may not work given a particular case.

No I do want to hear it:) This is why I started the thread.. I need to learn.

I did drop deeper and I played very wide, it created more chances but I still couldn't get round them! I added roam and be more expressive, will these create space?

What do you mean by switching up team shape?

[daleuk8]

2 minutes ago, llama3 said:

 

Exactly. So for instance I played Burnley away recently. They were sat in a 4-2DM-2-1-1 formation (basically like a defensive 4-4-1-1) - so I did the following; played Xhaka and Cazorla in central midfield, as I don't need a specialist holding midfielder like Coquelin or Elneny - I played Ramsey on the right instead of Walcott, as Ramsey drifting in with Bellerin in the overlap means I can exploit pockets of space wide to get in behind the defence. I'm not likely to play through both holding midfielders of Burnley, but using the width to stretch Burnley was vital. I won 2-0, helped by a red card for Defour after half an hour with the scores at 0-0. When I went 1-0 up, I gradually became more cautious to protect the lead, knowing I could exploit space on the counter attack. I brought on Coquelin to add some defensive nous in midfield, Giroud to help hold the ball up in attack and Walcott for pace on the counter. I scored a late 2nd when a Giroud knockdown was smashed in by Alexis. It's not just taking a lead it's game management too, knowing when to defend and when to attack. 

OK Thanks..

I played two FB's with two Wingers. So to create space could I have changed a FB to a WB-Attack? With a winger to someone who cuts inside or sits narrower like W/P-Support, allowing the WB to overlap? Would this have created space?

Sorry just nice to know if I'm the right track:_

[facman]

I create space for advancing fullbacks by doing the following:

 - DL is a WB(A), ML is a WM(S) with the PIs 'Cuts inside with ball' and 'Sit narrower'

 - DR is a FB(S), MR is a WP(A)

The play is different on both sides, but I get both the ML and MR sitting narrower and playing almost like AMCs, which creates lots of space for fullbacks to run into.

[daleuk8]

9 minutes ago, facman said:

I create space for advancing fullbacks by doing the following:

 - DL is a WB(A), ML is a WM(S) with the PIs 'Cuts inside with ball' and 'Sit narrower'

 - DR is a FB(S), MR is a WP(A)

The play is different on both sides, but I get both the ML and MR sitting narrower and playing almost like AMCs, which creates lots of space for fullbacks to run into.

OK. Cheers.

[daleuk8]

@llama3 @herne79

I've just played PSG at home. I'm Liverpool. Started with my standard set-up. I went 1-0 with a lucky goal. They were all over me. I noticed they were playing a high line, I went to counter, passed into space and direct passing, changed my fb-winger again..i won 3-0

[herne79]

4 hours ago, daleuk8 said:

What do you mean by switching up team shape?

I was talking about adding creative freedom.  More Fluid team shapes add creative freedom, more Structured team shapes reduce it - Very Fluid is most, Highly Structured is least - so I was talking about increasing team shape further away from Highly Structured as an option.

[llama3]

3 hours ago, daleuk8 said:

@llama3 @herne79

I've just played PSG at home. I'm Liverpool. Started with my standard set-up. I went 1-0 with a lucky goal. They were all over me. I noticed they were playing a high line, I went to counter, passed into space and direct passing, changed my fb-winger again..i won 3-0

Good result - it's a balance between your style and making adjustments. I generally like possession football and pressing, but i'll sit deep and hit opponents on the break sometimes if I need to.

[daleuk8]

15 minutes ago, herne79 said:

I was talking about adding creative freedom.  More Fluid team shapes add creative freedom, more Structured team shapes reduce it - Very Fluid is most, Highly Structured is least - so I was talking about increasing team shape further away from Highly Structured as an option.

With you..That's not something I really think about.