FM17 Help me make Conte's Chelsea 3-4-3

[poma]

3 hours ago, OneUnited said:

This is a really interesting thread. Some great ideas in here. I've been thinking of trying something new for my Chelsea side as I'm bored with the typically 4-2-3-1 / 4-3-3 that I usually play.

I've been experimenting with a 3-4-3 in various guises, and at the moment I'm pretty much settled on this. My only issue seems to be creating clear cut chances. I know this isn't always an indicator of a good tactic, but I'm finding most of my goals are wonder strikes etc. Which is okay for now, but I know it cannot be sustained.

I play with three at the back, two stopper central defenders either side a covering central defender. I find this works best against most single striker formations. I play with a very deep defensive line so there's little chance this exposing my covering defender. Or at least I'm yet to experience that so I guess time will tell.

I use two complete wing backs on attack and support as @wereldbol does above, along with two advanced playmakers ahead of them in the AML/R positions. I'm finding the advanced playmakers drift infield a lot, bringing their opposite numbers with them, leaving my wing backs plenty of space to break through on goal for shooting or crossing across the face for simple tap ins. 

I'm a sucker for the ball winning midfielder role. I have two in central midfield. I cannot escape using them and with my high pressing tactic they're perfect for chasing down the opposition and winning the ball back before then creating chances and busting a nut to get into the box themselves (I instruct them to get further forward)

The trouble role I have is the loan striker. I currently use a complete forward on support, but I find his movement isn't great and he rarely seems to be involved. I might play a poacher as my wing backs are often firing crosses along the face of goal. Would this work? Any advice here would be appreciated.

The below is a set of images for our typical play. Griezmann and Pedro are my two attacking midfielders in the AML/R role. They're very central leaving the two further most players out wide my wing backs unmarked. You can see the defending player on the left coming in to close down Greizmann. This leaves a simple pass over and over again. The other two players close to Griezmann are my ball winning midfielders. They're always there offering a way back for the advanced playmakers if they need the support. You can see in this instance Baba shoots, but I want Boga running in on the back stick making himself available for a cross to tap in. How do I translate this in terms of roles and duties for my striker?

More info please?

[fmFutbolManager]

12 minutes ago, poma said:

More info please?

Such as?

[poma]

27 minutes ago, OneUnited said:

Such as?

TI's, PI's mentality and shape...

[fmFutbolManager]

1 hour ago, poma said:

TI's, PI's mentality and shape...

TIs, mentality and shape attached. I don't really use PIs other than ask the BWMs to get further forward.

[fmFutbolManager]

Okay so I made some changes. I removed a lot of the restrictions on the team and simplified the instructions. I went to mixed passing and changed both APs to be support and both CWBs to be attack.

This resulted in some better goal opportunities. Some 

[Pretended]

Yet another nth season played in FM, yet another performance dip after winter break.

It happens every year, every time, every game I've EVER played since which FM I do not remember.

I got knocked out by Liverpool in Europa League, lost my title place to Ajax, having forgotten about how to win games completely. Series of draws one after another, awarding teams points otherwise I'd have crushed with ease.

I even had opened a thread about this post-winter-break effect only to be lectured. What might I be doing to suffer a performance collapse after every winter break I have since like 10 years in REAL LIFE ?

I am so pissed.

Edited February 6, 2017 by Pretended

[wereldbol]

On 5 Feb 2017 at 00:56, Antmanbrooks said:

 

Do you have any PI or OI with this setup? If so, could you explain what instructions you use? I like the basis of this and I feel this most closely matches my interpretation of Conte's style and formation.

Another question I have to anyone out there is if I'm correctly interpreting the 'formation' on FM, that is the team's defensive shape right? well Chelsea seem to line up in a deep, 5-4-1 formation when defending, so is there a way to play this formation but make the wide midfielders act like deep lying center forwards? So I want my wide midfielders to push up, play narrow and directly run at the opposition defence like Hazard and Pedro do.

i don't have the answer to your second question as i've never succeeded in achieving that. i believe it is only partially possible in football manager. your first question: i don't use any OI. i sometimes use close down more on the forward but generally i want my team to sit back, invite the long pop at goal and then build a good attack on the counter. since posting i have changed the right wide player to an inside forward on attack as i needed more goals from this side of the pitch. it is a lot more of a direct approach, looking to quickly get at the right side of the oppositions defence. mane is perfect for this role. i have also toned back the team instructions to:

counter/fluid
prevent short distribution
pass shorter
play out of defence
whipped crosses
pass into space

unfortunately results have been pretty random this season as coutinho broke his leg and firmino really does not fit the role of the left advanced playmaker. 

[wereldbol]

have been thinking about getting more midfield dominance as well. for all the things a 523 is, midfield dominance is not a part of that. i might try bringing the wide midfielders inside to see if it brings me more control. problem is then is that the lovely mechanisms of dragging full backs inside will no longer happen. food for thought.

[Pretended]

Regarding my previous post, my game gave yet another crash which has been troubling me for quite some time now. (I got like 4-5 setbacks because of that CTD)

Replaying this time having noticed that an AMC of oppositions find a lot of space to fire controlled and powerful shots from the edge of the area, I pushed the defensive line higher.

With the highest defensive line - I was just pissed and crazy - I defeated the crown challengers Ajax at their home 4-0.

However the "trick" seemed not to work favorably in terms of defense against mid-table or weaker teams so I pulled it back to "Normal" and I was crowned the champions in the last game entering the finish line on a 4 match unbeaten run not conceding only once after doing that.

Vitesse, Eredivisie champions in their 2nd season with MrMourinho's tactic, gentlemen. Applause. ^^

[Ghents]

59 minutes ago, Pretended said:

Regarding my previous post, my game gave yet another crash which has been troubling me for quite some time now. (I got like 4-5 setbacks because of that CTD)

Replaying this time having noticed that an AMC of oppositions find a lot of space to fire controlled and powerful shots from the edge of the area, I pushed the defensive line higher.

With the highest defensive line - I was just pissed and crazy - I defeated the crown challengers Ajax at their home 4-0.

However the "trick" seemed not to work favorably in terms of defense against mid-table or weaker teams so I pulled it back to "Normal" and I was crowned the champions in the last game entering the finish line on a 4 match unbeaten run not conceding only once after doing that.

Vitesse, Eredivisie champions in their 2nd season with MrMourinho's tactic, gentlemen. Applause. ^^

So against top teams you moved the line to much higher and lower/mid teams to normal? Makes sense.

[Pretended]

1 hour ago, Ghents said:

So against top teams you moved the line to much higher and lower/mid teams to normal? Makes sense.

That's what worked after conceding 2 goals in a match from average teams.

[Pretended]

Ever since I have moved my defensive line to "Normal", I have been a winner, became Eredivisie champions and made my way into Champions League group stages by eliminating Dinamo and Legia respectively.

However it's not a series of 1-0 or 2-0s anymore, I concede here and there however score in multitude.

[MrMourinho]

15 hours ago, Pretended said:

Ever since I have moved my defensive line to "Normal", I have been a winner, became Eredivisie champions and made my way into Champions League group stages by eliminating Dinamo and Legia respectively.

However it's not a series of 1-0 or 2-0s anymore, I concede here and there however score in multitude.

Are you playing with standard and flexible or control and fluid? 

[Pretended]

26 minutes ago, MrMourinho said:

Are you playing with standard and flexible or control and fluid? 

Standard, Flexible. Gives you more chance of knowing your limits and fewer risks of being outclassed being a minnow and all.

 

Edit: Snatched 2 draws from Monaco and Atletico Madrid. Lost to Sporting Lisbon because of 2 set piece errors despite owning them heavily.

Edited February 14, 2017 by Pretended

[iamneallyons]

After having a read through this top - i think alot of you guys are over complicating the matter.

You are forgetting the very basics that everything is linked together, so if you use "very fluid" your team is going to be more creative than if you used defensive and added TI to be more creative. Im seeing all kinds of mentalitys/shapes banded about with loads of team instructions etc - i would focus on finding the right mentality and shape first and foremost and just use team instructions later down the line to tailor specifics to your team.

I used to always over complicate my set-ups and there is just no need to do it from fm16 onwards.

[iamneallyons]

On 08/02/2017 at 07:58, wereldbol said:

i don't have the answer to your second question as i've never succeeded in achieving that. i believe it is only partially possible in football manager. your first question: i don't use any OI. i sometimes use close down more on the forward but generally i want my team to sit back, invite the long pop at goal and then build a good attack on the counter. since posting i have changed the right wide player to an inside forward on attack as i needed more goals from this side of the pitch. it is a lot more of a direct approach, looking to quickly get at the right side of the oppositions defence. mane is perfect for this role. i have also toned back the team instructions to:

counter/fluid
prevent short distribution
pass shorter
play out of defence
whipped crosses
pass into space

unfortunately results have been pretty random this season as coutinho broke his leg and firmino really does not fit the role of the left advanced playmaker. 

I cant understand why on a counter mentality you would want to play out of defence or pass shorter? the aim of that mentality is to be direct and get balls to the front line asap to catch the opposition out.

[Ghents]

The aim of counter is to play direct and fast while on the counter. You can play possession style and still be counter attacking. You don't have to play fast and direct all the time to play counter football.

Edited February 15, 2017 by Ghents

[iamneallyons]

14 minutes ago, Ghents said:

The aim of counter is to play direct and fast while on the counter. You can play possession style and still be counter attacking. You don't have to play fast and direct all the time to play counter football.

No of course not, but you will also still counter attack using "attacking" mentality, if you read the counter mentality it even says "best employed for matches in which you expect to lose the battle for possession" in the description.

[Ghents]

I'm aware, but having play out of the back and passing shorter doesn't mean you can't play successfully with the counter mentality. I did it with a 4411 in FM16 where I wanted to play on the counter, but when I wasn't I wanted a careful attack with less risk.

[wereldbol]

playing on counter doesn't mean you have to hit direct and quick balls up top. i have always seen the counter mentality as a cautious mentality enabling me to play a patient build up game with the occasional quick break when the opportunity presents itself. switching from standard to counter means lowering the tempo of play. i think counter is just a name, it doesn't dictate the way you play.

[Rashidi]

22 hours ago, iamneallyons said:

I cant understand why on a counter mentality you would want to play out of defence or pass shorter? the aim of that mentality is to be direct and get balls to the front line asap to catch the opposition out.

Why no?  Taken by itself and without considering all the PIs and other TIs, the counter mentality inherently assigns a lower risk profile to the team and guides them into making guarded decisions when moving the ball up. The aim of the mentality is not to play direct passes. That you do from changing the Team Passing Instruction or modifying PIs. Its the combination of other shouts that will encourage a side to play direct. One could easily play a defensive or a counter attacking game, playing with short and risk free passes from the back.  

[Ghents]

Just as @Rashidi said. Man, now that makes me want to try to make a defensive possession tactic again.

[iamneallyons]

5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Why no?  Taken by itself and without considering all the PIs and other TIs, the counter mentality inherently assigns a lower risk profile to the team and guides them into making guarded decisions when moving the ball up. The aim of the mentality is not to play direct passes. That you do from changing the Team Passing Instruction or modifying PIs. Its the combination of other shouts that will encourage a side to play direct. One could easily play a defensive or a counter attacking game, playing with short and risk free passes from the back.  

The way iv always viewed football is if you play on the counter you want to get the ball to your forwards as quickly as possible no??? It even says on the description of the mentality "it relies on getting the ball forward quickly enough to expose the spaces in behind". So thats telling me its going to be direct and try to get the ball forward quickly on the turn over and if your saying it doesnt, who is right you or the game description? - i dont want this to come over arsey either btw, genuine Q!

[eriktous]

22 hours ago, iamneallyons said:

who is right you or the game description?

I'd place my bets on Rashidi.

[BoxToBox]

22 hours ago, iamneallyons said:

The way iv always viewed football is if you play on the counter you want to get the ball to your forwards as quickly as possible no??? It even says on the description of the mentality "it relies on getting the ball forward quickly enough to expose the spaces in behind". So thats telling me its going to be direct and try to get the ball forward quickly on the turn over and if your saying it doesnt, who is right you or the game description? - i dont want this to come over arsey either btw, genuine Q!

When the opening isn't there, the team will sit deep and play safe football, waiting for the opening to appear as the opposition push more.

[Jean0987654321]

On 2/16/2017 at 09:56, Rashidi said:

Why no?  Taken by itself and without considering all the PIs and other TIs, the counter mentality inherently assigns a lower risk profile to the team and guides them into making guarded decisions when moving the ball up. The aim of the mentality is not to play direct passes. That you do from changing the Team Passing Instruction or modifying PIs. Its the combination of other shouts that will encourage a side to play direct. One could easily play a defensive or a counter attacking game, playing with short and risk free passes from the back.  

Yeah, in my own interpretation of Conte, I used the TIs Play Out Of Defense and Work Ball Into Box because my defenders would just hoof every ball away and my wingbacks would look to cross at every chance they have and I needed some TIs to negate that...

 

I also wanted to press side-to-side on a low block ala Conte IRL so Counter fits great for me

[Rashidi]

23 hours ago, iamneallyons said:

The way iv always viewed football is if you play on the counter you want to get the ball to your forwards as quickly as possible no??? It even says on the description of the mentality "it relies on getting the ball forward quickly enough to expose the spaces in behind". So thats telling me its going to be direct and try to get the ball forward quickly on the turn over and if your saying it doesnt, who is right you or the game description? - i dont want this to come over arsey either btw, genuine Q!

If you adjust the Mentality without doing anything, you may get a counter attacking system. That means you didn't change PIs and TIs then yes, you may see your side hoof the ball and try to play a style that may resemble Counter attacking football, but Mentality in itself will not create that. The game descriptions  aren't 100% correct, and notice what happens when you change mentality..it automatically changes certain sliders so that it will try to "help" you try to achieve what you want. That won't happen unless you choose the right shape/roles and duties.

In itself Mentality does nothing to create a style of play. I could very well create a counter attacking system using Overload mentality with the right combination of TIs and PIs, Mentality is a tool to assign risk.  This season I actually designed a counterattacking Overload system for Torino as well now that should confuse people even more. Once you accept that Mentality is only a tool for risk and that shape distributes it..boy your game is gonna change big time.

[iamneallyons]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

If you adjust the Mentality without doing anything, you may get a counter attacking system. That means you didn't change PIs and TIs then yes, you may see your side hoof the ball and try to play a style that may resemble Counter attacking football, but Mentality in itself will not create that. The game descriptions  aren't 100% correct, and notice what happens when you change mentality..it automatically changes certain sliders so that it will try to "help" you try to achieve what you want. That won't happen unless you choose the right shape/roles and duties.

In itself Mentality does nothing to create a style of play. I could very well create a counter attacking system using Overload mentality with the right combination of TIs and PIs, Mentality is a tool to assign risk.  This season I actually designed a counterattacking Overload system for Torino as well now that should confuse people even more. Once you accept that Mentality is only a tool for risk and that shape distributes it..boy your game is gonna change big time.

You are not wrong there Sir!!!

Thats the epiphany moment iv been waiting for and the confirmation! This will now alter my approach drastically now i have that confirmed!

[Rashidi]

2 hours ago, iamneallyons said:

You are not wrong there Sir!!!

Thats the epiphany moment iv been waiting for and the confirmation! This will now alter my approach drastically now i have that confirmed!

Glad to help...:-)

[iamneallyons]

Just now, Rashidi said:

Glad to help

just to confirm then - by your last statement of shape distributes the risk - so if you have "overload" which is the highest form of risk, and you coupled that with "very fluid" everybody is taking a risk - if you coupled overload with "highly structured" only your attackers are going to take that highest form of risk correct?

[Rashidi]

Just now, iamneallyons said:

just to confirm then - by your last statement of shape distributes the risk - so if you have "overload" which is the highest form of risk, and you coupled that with "very fluid" everybody is taking a risk - if you coupled overload with "highly structured" only your attackers are going to take that highest form of risk correct?

Close, everyone will have higher mentality. The mentality sets the starting base, Structured shape splits it so you could see defend duties being far apart from attack duties in terms of risk profile, on fluid they come closer together, and thats how everyone will take more risk. On structured the dudes on attack duty take the most with the attackers likely to be at 20 the maximum, but the spread is more distinct. On fluid the spread is less distinct, and hence my "kumbaya" metaphor.

[iamneallyons]

4 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Close, everyone will have higher mentality. The mentality sets the starting base, Structured shape splits it so you could see defend duties being far apart from attack duties in terms of risk profile, on fluid they come closer together, and thats how everyone will take more risk. On structured the dudes on attack duty take the most with the attackers likely to be at 20 the maximum, but the spread is more distinct. On fluid the spread is less distinct, and hence my "kumbaya" metaphor.

yeah makes sense because on fluid the attackers also have to muck in with the defending hence the spread being less distinct and also the defenders have to muck in with the transition/attack slightly.

[Craigus89]

On 17/02/2017 at 19:45, Rashidi said:

Mentality is only a tool for risk and ... shape distributes it.

This is the single most useful sentence that could be given to anyone struggling with this game.

Could we have this in bold at the top of the tactics forum, it would save a lot of people so many headaches!

[Pretended]

Just qualified from Group phase of Champions League with Vitesse after trashing group leaders Monaco with a 4-1 win at home. 

It's like the only thing you have to adjust with this tactic is your defensive line's position depending on your rivals, your position in the competition etc.

[Pretended]

See my post-Defensive-Line-to-Slightly-Deeper performance in the SS attached.

 

 

Conceded only once in the league after the change, still not lost once whole season. The other two goals came from Dortmund and they could only qualify on away goals while my team wasted no less than 3 one-on-one opportunities on their turf - simply, that's why I could not proceed further..

Edited February 25, 2017 by Pretended

[MrMourinho]

Can you post a ss of your team instructions?

[Pretended]

2 hours ago, MrMourinho said:

Can you post a ss of your team instructions?

Sure.

[MrMourinho]

37 minutes ago, Pretended said:

Sure.

Thanks. Do you always play with lower tempo or have you tried to increase it sometimes?

[MrMourinho]

On 2017-02-01 at 20:49, Pretended said:

See SS for Tactic's general outline. It must be the same with your most updated one.

I don't use OI's. They undermine your tactical soundness, me thinks. 

I tried almost all tactics here on different Mentality and Team Shape settings and your previous one was the best among them. It was shaky a bit but ever since I upgraded this season to the updated one, it worked wonders.

 

Edit: I also use Defending/Attacking Corner set pieces from one of the guys here since they matter a lot - I don't remember who. It's slightly modified, that's all.

Is this still your formation, roles and duties? I play the same but find it tougher in this second save. Especially having troubles with the big teams away. 

[Pretended]

9 minutes ago, MrMourinho said:

Is this still your formation, roles and duties? I play the same but find it tougher in this second save. Especially having troubles with the big teams away. 

Yes, still the same formation, still the same roles and duties.

See my end of the season table, there is a huge "0" under "Lost" column. ^^

 

I have signed a contract with Fiorentina before the end of the season. So I'll see how the tactic will fare in another team against far more competition.

Edited February 25, 2017 by Pretended

[CBP87]

On 25/02/2017 at 16:55, Pretended said:

Yes, still the same formation, still the same roles and duties.

See my end of the season table, there is a huge "0" under "Lost" column. ^^

 

I have signed a contract with Fiorentina before the end of the season. So I'll see how the tactic will fare in another team against far more competition.

Hey, loving the idea of this tactic and can see the results you're getting. I've read the entire post and your tactic seems to be the one getting the results. However any chance you can upload the file for download. I am copying the instructions from your SS but not going anyways, also i am confused as to the comments about the corner setup. is there a link to these? saying that though if you upload your tactic then the set piece setup should be there

[Pretended]

Hello,

An update from a new 17.3.1 game, halfway through the season:

Can't get any better than this where media thinks I would be "fighting to avoid relegation".

Plus, AJ Auxerre's finances are far worse than my previous team Vitesse.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Pretended

[Pretended]

On 3/3/2017 at 18:16, CBP87 said:

Hey, loving the idea of this tactic and can see the results you're getting. I've read the entire post and your tactic seems to be the one getting the results. However any chance you can upload the file for download. I am copying the instructions from your SS but not going anyways, also i am confused as to the comments about the corner setup. is there a link to these? saying that though if you upload your tactic then the set piece setup should be there

I will PM you a link of what I am using right now.

 

Edit: By the way, ALL credit goes to fellow Mr. Mourinho for this tactic. I might have tinkered here and there, nothing significant.

Edited March 21, 2017 by Pretended

[Pretended]

There we go.

 

Became the champions with 74 points which is Auxerre's highes points accumulated record as well as 22 wins replicating the highest wins in a season (I actually was on the brink of breaking that record as well until 81st minute of the last match).

At last, after so many versions of FM, I could establish a tactic that is effective from the first season for average teams too and does not break with version changes (at least for now).

Le cheers !

 

P.S. League leaders in goals conceded and the second best after Ajaccio in those scored with one goal difference.

Edited March 28, 2017 by Pretended

[Pretended]

By the way, after my 1st-eleven goalkeeper wanted to leave for Lyon mid-season, I bought Zaid Hortalin for € 2.8k. You read the price right. Didn't see a better bargain since the almighty bogus To Madeira.

 

 

[jigsaw89]

18 hours ago, Pretended said:

By the way, after my 1st-eleven goalkeeper wanted to leave for Lyon mid-season, I bought Zaid Hortalin for € 2.8k. You read the price right. Didn't see a better bargain since the almighty bogus To Madeira.

 

 

Hi could you share your please tactic, because I do not find it, thanks you

Edited March 29, 2017 by jigsaw89

[Pretended]

20 hours ago, jigsaw89 said:

Hi could you share your please tactic, because I do not find it, thanks you

Check your inbox, mate.

[poma]

5 hours ago, Pretended said:

Check your inbox, mate.

Nothing there mate?

[Pretended]

 

2 hours ago, poma said:

Nothing there mate?

Using multiple accounts?

[jigsaw89]

8 hours ago, Pretended said:

Check your inbox, mate.

thanks you for sending me the tactic