FM17 Help me make Conte's Chelsea 3-4-3

[_Daniel_]

33 minutes ago, saihtam said:

Dissagree with this. Why?
Because if you play them as f9 or treq, they wont come back defending so much. Your trio will be staying more up. But hazard and Pedro are coming back deeper to hold midfield defense. This is one issue I still dont like in my tactics. 

Any suggestions how to make them come back more defending, also from av positsion it seems in defense i sit too narrow, any way to counter that?

Still needs tweaking but I have gained possession at least, not scoring very much and cant use this tactics every time.

 

Playing structured/control you generally aren't going to see strikers drop back and defend. Structured tells strikers to stay up top and concentrate on attacking and attacking transitions, this is promoted further by control with is an attacking mentality. Going fluid with a less attacking mentality will see strikers more involved in defending. However, you will be completely changing your tactic by doing so. 

[herne79]

4 minutes ago, saihtam said:

Interesting tough, but dont have players for wide midfielders in my team.

You would the use wide playmaker for Hazard? But for Pedro?
Also what roles for full backs then?

You do have players for wide midfielders, they are called Hazard and Pedro.  Forget what the game says is "suitable" and think about the attributes the player needs to fulfil the role you want him to play.  So if I want a WM with PIs to create a kind of Inside Forward, I want a player with Pace, Acceleration, Dribbling, Agility, decent mentals and an ability to pass and score.  Sounds like Hazard and Pedro to me.  Even Willian.

A WP role for Hazard could be ok but you'd need to ensure he is a viable goal threat.  As a WP he'll attract the ball a bit more often, but he may look to pass more often than you'd like him to in the final third, so a WM role may be better.

As for fullbacks, start simple and change if you don't think they get forward enough.

[Contexx]

I use the same set up but with a lot fewer TI's.  Unless your players are geniuses, it might really be hard to keep the ball, in spite (because?) of all the shouts.  Really high line, work into the box,  retain possession, play out of defense and exploit the flanks while also asking them to be more expressive might be overkill. I'd be a bit worried about getting caught in possession. 

I've won the Bundesliga with a very average Hoffenheim using a similar tactic, and went on a run of 12 games without conceding.  The funny thing is, I was allowing a lot of shots, although most were wild long range efforts, and the majority of those would be blocked by that ugly clump of narrowness this tactic creates.  It's especially effective against the different breeds of 433, because it gives no space for all those fancy inside forwards who like to cut inside.

My advice is keep it simple(r).  Forget the high line.  That deep defensive line this formation naturally results in is actually a blessing.  The BWM is good, provided you have the right player and plenty of back up if and when he gets into card trouble.  For the other CM, you really need someone who is comfortable on the ball.  B2B is ok, although unless he's very disciplined and skilled, he won't do much for keeping possession.  Personally, I use a modified CM(s) and ask him to "get forward" when feeling a bit frisky.  Otherwise, he collects his customary 6.8 rating and keeps things ticking. 

For your wingbacks, I would keep the right one on support duty.  You've got a pretty adventurous central midfielder and an inside forward, so you should have someone on that side who is on support.  More importantly, your IF will not do much defending when the opposition has possession, so let this WB be more conservative, and ignore the fact that he will inevitably rarely get more than a 6.9 rating, rarely get crosses in.  That will be for your left, AP side.

With the AP cutting inside, you've got a delightful little situation with a wingback overlapping and crossing, while the AP himself gives the pass before the assist, or a throughball to your IF and striker.  In my tactic, the vast majority of assists occur from that side, to the point that it starts looking ridiculous. However, it's a really difficult thing for the AI to deal with because of the imbalance created with your other wingback being on support.  The combo of wbs/IFa on one side and wba/Aps on the other is very awkward to deal with - especially when you have a technical and intelligent forward in the mix....

...which brings me to that forward.  Personally I use a CF(s) or even False 9, because he's more involved in the build up and is a greater danger for opening up the opposition.  More importantly, he can pull and drag the opposition defenders, clearing plenty of room for your Inside Forward or even BBM to take advantage of. 

The overlaps will happen naturally - you don't need that TI as it asks your wide forwards to hold up the ball.  You don't want that Inside forward to hold up the ball and wait for support.  You want him to stretch the defense by running at them, or at least to keep them pegged back.  Unless he's Christiano Ronaldo's unselfish twin, it will simply slow down, stagnate, and ultimately break down your attacks in awkward positions.  Think about it - when he holds it up and your wing based attack starts coming closer to him, what happens when an opposition DMC takes the ball off him and launches a counter though the middle? You'll have your BWM and three CB's running back like mad through an area you've left unprotected.  Luckily, the sheer numbers - the ugly and narrow back three and BWM - should deal with the threat more often than now, but it kills your own attacks.

For increasing possession, my only TI is "shorter passing", as it ensures the side is patient enough with the ball before it eventually gets to the AP.  Remember, also, that both of your wing-forwards cut inside.  The flanks will be exploited in some phases, but the meat of your attacks will still occur in the middle.  The true advantage of this system (and maybe conte's), is when those wingbacks morph into wingers, and those wide players have taken dangerous central positions - the opponent is left with too many threats to deal with.  A solid base of slightly more disciplined CM's, and more CB's keeps you safe.  More importantly, if your defensive line is not so high, it gives you more room to exploit space.  If you're so high up the pitch, it can often lead to crowding - something you don't want.  Keeping your defensive line somewhat normal allows you enough space for play to develop, giving your AP that all important bit of elbow room and time, your IF some real estate to run past defenders, and it forces the opposition to make awkward choices.  When your this high up the pitch, the "structured" (literally) shape of your formation loses a lot of its value.  In real life, Conte's Chelsea are not nearly so high up the pitch.  Yeah, their line gets pretty high if the opponents let or force them, but I have a feeling Conte would rather let the cede some of that space, giving Hazard and company better looks and reducing the amount Cahill has to sprint back. 

One more thing about the striker.  At Chelsea, Diego Costa is no longer just a defensive forward.  By nature, he's one tough and aggressive person, but he's far too involved in build up play and even finishing moves to be a mere defensive forward.  The sheer anguish of dealing with Hazard and Pedro is difficult enough - imagine having Costa breathing down your neck, and then realizing he can also pass and shoot and play football.  In FM, I haven't had the fortune of having a player like that, but I'd used Mandzukic (sort of similar, less technical), as a CF, but asking him to close down like mad and shoot less, and it had a very good effect.

Finally, as with all tactics, personnel is important.  In my first year at Hoffenheim, I had a bunch of aggressive DMC's and not much creativity and skill relative to my opponents.  As I got richer, reputation increased, the trophy cabinet got more full, opponents were less likely to camp out in front of my penalty area taking silly pot shots.  Eventually, getting the types of players that could open up defenders, or central midfielders which could dominate "box to box", the tactic itself started looking more attractive.  Don't forget, Chelsea play with a midfield composed of two human beings, although Kante covers enough ground for three players. Matic himself is ok on the ball, but he's a tank.  Fabregasc is way more skilled, but to pull of a midfield screen like that, you need a wall, not a picket fence.

In my opinion, this tactic is fantastic. It produces some truly gorgeous football and could very well be the next evolutionary step to grow out of the ashes of 433.  It's sometimes ugly, but when it works it's beautiful. 

[saihtam]

24 minutes ago, Contexx said:

I use the same set up but with a lot fewer TI's.  Unless your players are geniuses, it might really be hard to keep the ball, in spite (because?) of all the shouts.  Really high line, work into the box,  retain possession, play out of defense and exploit the flanks while also asking them to be more expressive might be overkill. I'd be a bit worried about getting caught in possession. 

I've won the Bundesliga with a very average Hoffenheim using a similar tactic, and went on a run of 12 games without conceding.  The funny thing is, I was allowing a lot of shots, although most were wild long range efforts, and the majority of those would be blocked by that ugly clump of narrowness this tactic creates.  It's especially effective against the different breeds of 433, because it gives no space for all those fancy inside forwards who like to cut inside.

My advice is keep it simple(r).  Forget the high line.  That deep defensive line this formation naturally results in is actually a blessing.  The BWM is good, provided you have the right player and plenty of back up if and when he gets into card trouble.  For the other CM, you really need someone who is comfortable on the ball.  B2B is ok, although unless he's very disciplined and skilled, he won't do much for keeping possession.  Personally, I use a modified CM(s) and ask him to "get forward" when feeling a bit frisky.  Otherwise, he collects his customary 6.8 rating and keeps things ticking. 

For your wingbacks, I would keep the right one on support duty.  You've got a pretty adventurous central midfielder and an inside forward, so you should have someone on that side who is on support.  More importantly, your IF will not do much defending when the opposition has possession, so let this WB be more conservative, and ignore the fact that he will inevitably rarely get more than a 6.9 rating, rarely get crosses in.  That will be for your left, AP side.

With the AP cutting inside, you've got a delightful little situation with a wingback overlapping and crossing, while the AP himself gives the pass before the assist, or a throughball to your IF and striker.  In my tactic, the vast majority of assists occur from that side, to the point that it starts looking ridiculous. However, it's a really difficult thing for the AI to deal with because of the imbalance created with your other wingback being on support.  The combo of wbs/IFa on one side and wba/Aps on the other is very awkward to deal with - especially when you have a technical and intelligent forward in the mix....

...which brings me to that forward.  Personally I use a CF(s) or even False 9, because he's more involved in the build up and is a greater danger for opening up the opposition.  More importantly, he can pull and drag the opposition defenders, clearing plenty of room for your Inside Forward or even BBM to take advantage of. 

The overlaps will happen naturally - you don't need that TI as it asks your wide forwards to hold up the ball.  You don't want that Inside forward to hold up the ball and wait for support.  You want him to stretch the defense by running at them, or at least to keep them pegged back.  Unless he's Christiano Ronaldo's unselfish twin, it will simply slow down, stagnate, and ultimately break down your attacks in awkward positions.  Think about it - when he holds it up and your wing based attack starts coming closer to him, what happens when an opposition DMC takes the ball off him and launches a counter though the middle? You'll have your BWM and three CB's running back like mad through an area you've left unprotected.  Luckily, the sheer numbers - the ugly and narrow back three and BWM - should deal with the threat more often than now, but it kills your own attacks.

For increasing possession, my only TI is "shorter passing", as it ensures the side is patient enough with the ball before it eventually gets to the AP.  Remember, also, that both of your wing-forwards cut inside.  The flanks will be exploited in some phases, but the meat of your attacks will still occur in the middle.  The true advantage of this system (and maybe conte's), is when those wingbacks morph into wingers, and those wide players have taken dangerous central positions - the opponent is left with too many threats to deal with.  A solid base of slightly more disciplined CM's, and more CB's keeps you safe.  More importantly, if your defensive line is not so high, it gives you more room to exploit space.  If you're so high up the pitch, it can often lead to crowding - something you don't want.  Keeping your defensive line somewhat normal allows you enough space for play to develop, giving your AP that all important bit of elbow room and time, your IF some real estate to run past defenders, and it forces the opposition to make awkward choices.  When your this high up the pitch, the "structured" (literally) shape of your formation loses a lot of its value.  In real life, Conte's Chelsea are not nearly so high up the pitch.  Yeah, their line gets pretty high if the opponents let or force them, but I have a feeling Conte would rather let the cede some of that space, giving Hazard and company better looks and reducing the amount Cahill has to sprint back. 

One more thing about the striker.  At Chelsea, Diego Costa is no longer just a defensive forward.  By nature, he's one tough and aggressive person, but he's far too involved in build up play and even finishing moves to be a mere defensive forward.  The sheer anguish of dealing with Hazard and Pedro is difficult enough - imagine having Costa breathing down your neck, and then realizing he can also pass and shoot and play football.  In FM, I haven't had the fortune of having a player like that, but I'd used Mandzukic (sort of similar, less technical), as a CF, but asking him to close down like mad and shoot less, and it had a very good effect.

Finally, as with all tactics, personnel is important.  In my first year at Hoffenheim, I had a bunch of aggressive DMC's and not much creativity and skill relative to my opponents.  As I got richer, reputation increased, the trophy cabinet got more full, opponents were less likely to camp out in front of my penalty area taking silly pot shots.  Eventually, getting the types of players that could open up defenders, or central midfielders which could dominate "box to box", the tactic itself started looking more attractive.  Don't forget, Chelsea play with a midfield composed of two human beings, although Kante covers enough ground for three players. Matic himself is ok on the ball, but he's a tank.  Fabregasc is way more skilled, but to pull of a midfield screen like that, you need a wall, not a picket fence.

In my opinion, this tactic is fantastic. It produces some truly gorgeous football and could very well be the next evolutionary step to grow out of the ashes of 433.  It's sometimes ugly, but when it works it's beautiful. 

Very good info and read. Will start tweaking and trying out different things. I was thinking the same thing that TI are bit too much for this tactics. Summer is coming so i try to splash out some decent money for midfield players.

The success of this tactics comes down to player PPM also, right combination of those and tactics could be deadly.

How many goals are your AP and IF getting?

Edited December 2, 2016 by saihtam

[False 9]

12 hours ago, Contexx said:

I use the same set up but with a lot fewer TI's.  Unless your players are geniuses, it might really be hard to keep the ball, in spite (because?) of all the shouts.  Really high line, work into the box,  retain possession, play out of defense and exploit the flanks while also asking them to be more expressive might be overkill. I'd be a bit worried about getting caught in possession. 

I've won the Bundesliga with a very average Hoffenheim using a similar tactic, and went on a run of 12 games without conceding.  The funny thing is, I was allowing a lot of shots, although most were wild long range efforts, and the majority of those would be blocked by that ugly clump of narrowness this tactic creates.  It's especially effective against the different breeds of 433, because it gives no space for all those fancy inside forwards who like to cut inside.

My advice is keep it simple(r).  Forget the high line.  That deep defensive line this formation naturally results in is actually a blessing.  The BWM is good, provided you have the right player and plenty of back up if and when he gets into card trouble.  For the other CM, you really need someone who is comfortable on the ball.  B2B is ok, although unless he's very disciplined and skilled, he won't do much for keeping possession.  Personally, I use a modified CM(s) and ask him to "get forward" when feeling a bit frisky.  Otherwise, he collects his customary 6.8 rating and keeps things ticking. 

For your wingbacks, I would keep the right one on support duty.  You've got a pretty adventurous central midfielder and an inside forward, so you should have someone on that side who is on support.  More importantly, your IF will not do much defending when the opposition has possession, so let this WB be more conservative, and ignore the fact that he will inevitably rarely get more than a 6.9 rating, rarely get crosses in.  That will be for your left, AP side.

With the AP cutting inside, you've got a delightful little situation with a wingback overlapping and crossing, while the AP himself gives the pass before the assist, or a throughball to your IF and striker.  In my tactic, the vast majority of assists occur from that side, to the point that it starts looking ridiculous. However, it's a really difficult thing for the AI to deal with because of the imbalance created with your other wingback being on support.  The combo of wbs/IFa on one side and wba/Aps on the other is very awkward to deal with - especially when you have a technical and intelligent forward in the mix....

...which brings me to that forward.  Personally I use a CF(s) or even False 9, because he's more involved in the build up and is a greater danger for opening up the opposition.  More importantly, he can pull and drag the opposition defenders, clearing plenty of room for your Inside Forward or even BBM to take advantage of. 

The overlaps will happen naturally - you don't need that TI as it asks your wide forwards to hold up the ball.  You don't want that Inside forward to hold up the ball and wait for support.  You want him to stretch the defense by running at them, or at least to keep them pegged back.  Unless he's Christiano Ronaldo's unselfish twin, it will simply slow down, stagnate, and ultimately break down your attacks in awkward positions.  Think about it - when he holds it up and your wing based attack starts coming closer to him, what happens when an opposition DMC takes the ball off him and launches a counter though the middle? You'll have your BWM and three CB's running back like mad through an area you've left unprotected.  Luckily, the sheer numbers - the ugly and narrow back three and BWM - should deal with the threat more often than now, but it kills your own attacks.

For increasing possession, my only TI is "shorter passing", as it ensures the side is patient enough with the ball before it eventually gets to the AP.  Remember, also, that both of your wing-forwards cut inside.  The flanks will be exploited in some phases, but the meat of your attacks will still occur in the middle.  The true advantage of this system (and maybe conte's), is when those wingbacks morph into wingers, and those wide players have taken dangerous central positions - the opponent is left with too many threats to deal with.  A solid base of slightly more disciplined CM's, and more CB's keeps you safe.  More importantly, if your defensive line is not so high, it gives you more room to exploit space.  If you're so high up the pitch, it can often lead to crowding - something you don't want.  Keeping your defensive line somewhat normal allows you enough space for play to develop, giving your AP that all important bit of elbow room and time, your IF some real estate to run past defenders, and it forces the opposition to make awkward choices.  When your this high up the pitch, the "structured" (literally) shape of your formation loses a lot of its value.  In real life, Conte's Chelsea are not nearly so high up the pitch.  Yeah, their line gets pretty high if the opponents let or force them, but I have a feeling Conte would rather let the cede some of that space, giving Hazard and company better looks and reducing the amount Cahill has to sprint back. 

One more thing about the striker.  At Chelsea, Diego Costa is no longer just a defensive forward.  By nature, he's one tough and aggressive person, but he's far too involved in build up play and even finishing moves to be a mere defensive forward.  The sheer anguish of dealing with Hazard and Pedro is difficult enough - imagine having Costa breathing down your neck, and then realizing he can also pass and shoot and play football.  In FM, I haven't had the fortune of having a player like that, but I'd used Mandzukic (sort of similar, less technical), as a CF, but asking him to close down like mad and shoot less, and it had a very good effect.

Finally, as with all tactics, personnel is important.  In my first year at Hoffenheim, I had a bunch of aggressive DMC's and not much creativity and skill relative to my opponents.  As I got richer, reputation increased, the trophy cabinet got more full, opponents were less likely to camp out in front of my penalty area taking silly pot shots.  Eventually, getting the types of players that could open up defenders, or central midfielders which could dominate "box to box", the tactic itself started looking more attractive.  Don't forget, Chelsea play with a midfield composed of two human beings, although Kante covers enough ground for three players. Matic himself is ok on the ball, but he's a tank.  Fabregasc is way more skilled, but to pull of a midfield screen like that, you need a wall, not a picket fence.

In my opinion, this tactic is fantastic. It produces some truly gorgeous football and could very well be the next evolutionary step to grow out of the ashes of 433.  It's sometimes ugly, but when it works it's beautiful. 

Do you mind sharing your tactic in full? I would love to try it out, thanks

[Contexx]

I keep the TI's and PI's very basic and change them according to the player or team faced.  Most of the changes would occur with the central midfield - against a 2 man midfield I'd usually usually use a B2B midfielder, whereas I keep a CM(s) to add a level of stability when facing three man midfields, particularly where the AMC seems more of withdrawn. Same goes for the other TI's.  As for PI's, they're also player specific, although the forward has "close down much more" and "shoot less".

Note:  In my interpretation, TI's are modifiers to the system, rather than absolutes.  So, when I use the shout of "shortER" passing it doesn't mean players will only pass it short.  Even when the CM(d) has the ball and my IF is waving at him like "hey homeboy, look at me! ping it long cuz I'm very open", I expect him to deviate from my instructions and let him make that pass. But what I'm saying to the team is "generally, I want you to pass it shorter".  When "more direct" for example, they will lump it - hopefully to the AP as the only recognizable playmaker, or one of the other forward players, and I usually don't want that because it stunts the build up.

Also, sometimes when struggling to break teams down, or needing a more complete team effort in defending, I'm happy to go "fluid" shape, as it makes the team a bit more creative and unpredictable.  I generally don't trust my defenders to do much more than defend, and happy to keep the likes of Pulisic only attacking, although as the squad becomes more "intelligent" I'm starting to go more and more fluid.

Again, this is far from a plug and play supertactic, but rather a system I used for my particular squad. 

As a basic set-up, it works very well because it's quite solid.  I started it with a mid-table Croatian side and won everything in the first season, then made it to the group stages of the CL the next year, and the football at times was turgid, but as the quality of players increased to fit the tactic, it improved. Alas, the cosmopolitan lights of Hoffenheim came calling and took over a hard-working but slightly limited squad.  Since then, won two straight titles and lost ugly to PSG in the CL semis.

The key, as always, is to step back, and get to know your squad.

 

 

 

 

      

                              

 

Edited December 3, 2016 by Contexx

[Ceching You Out]

On 12/2/2016 at 05:05, herne79 said:

Bring your wide players back one notch to make a 5-4-1.

Chelsea basically defend as a 5-4-1, and the formation you see in the tactics creator is your defensive formation.  From reading through this thread I think many people are over thinking the attack and neglecting the defence (not aimed at you saitham).  This is why you see people above using two or three players in the AMC positions and never getting back to the 5-4-1 defence.  They just see the 3-4-3 in attack and focus on that.

Start with the defensive formation and use roles, duties and tactical settings to shape the attacking formation.  For example, put Hazard into the ML position and use the Wide Midfielder role with player instructions to replicate an Inside Forward.

That's the right defensive formation but I see a challenge getting the offensive positioning exact. Most of the time Hazard and Pedro don't really attack as conventional Inside Forwards; they essentially occupy the AMR and AML when playing three in attacking midfield band, the half-spaces between wing and the center of the pitch. Seems like dropping them to the midfield band will exacerbate their positioning.

I'm assuming that's a flat 5-4-1 (so the WBs aren't on the heels of the MR/L). Would Moses and Alonso be aggressive enough attacking from the deepest band?

[Lordluap]

On 11/9/2016 at 16:12, drigaco said:

But then you don't defend as 5-4-1 or even 5-2 when the strikers don't want to defend.

Yes you do.  The back 4 plus the left sided wingback drops in to make a 5-2-3/5-4-1

 

[saihtam]

http://www.bbc.com/sport/football/38240386

 

[Lordluap]

[Rashidi]

 I love it when tactics discussions happen, and its a pity this thread fell off, but I thought you guys might be interested in my interpretation of Contes Chelsea. I am far too tired to reinsert the post on this thread, or start another but here is the link.

https://www.addictedtofm.com/chelsea-343-get-real/

[Ceching You Out]

5 hours ago, Rashidi said:

 I love it when tactics discussions happen, and its a pity this thread fell off, but I thought you guys might be interested in my interpretation of Contes Chelsea. I am far too tired to reinsert the post on this thread, or start another but here is the link.

https://www.addictedtofm.com/chelsea-343-get-real/

You're spot on with how Azpi and Cahill (to a lesser extent) are almost attacking DCs at times. But the big the question is -- how do we replicate that (plus get Hazard/Pedro into the halfspace when attacking) in FM? Would love to hear your thoughts; if anyone can pull it off, it's you.

[wwxxyyzz]

20 minutes ago, Ceching You Out said:

You're spot on with how Azpi and Cahill (to a lesser extent) are almost attacking DCs at times. But the big the question is -- how do we replicate that (plus get Hazard/Pedro into the halfspace when attacking) in FM? Would love to hear your thoughts; if anyone can pull it off, it's you.

I think it wont be possible to have a centre back attack in that manner. Perhaps if they had "gets forward whenever possible" ppm, though I am unsure if that would have much effect

 

We need a "box to box" centre back role!

[Rashidi]

Getting hazard and Pedro to operate in the halfspace is the easy bit. They are both APMs coming in from the left with sit narrower as a PI. that way they are almost always in the centre acting like AMCs.  So you get them attacking the box more centrally, when they defend they do take care of the flanks first, thats what happens irl. For me the attacking phase is easy, for the front 3, its Azpi thats challenging. I have a few ideas that are working, but Azpi tends to drift over to the left as well. I don't think Cahill is anywhere as comfortable as Azpi is, which explains why Conte prefers Matic playing in front of him, and its also where Hazard operates around. Though he does occasionally flirt on the right. Cahill is less adventurous in my opinion than Azpi. I just love how Azpi when from nobody to beating nearly 80% of the league in passing accuracy. 

Even though Pedro is not technically an APM, irl, where he operates is achieved best by the APM role/duty, this gives us llcence to unleash Moses and turn him into a CWB so he can both dribble down the flanks and through the middle

In my system I am flirting with I love using Azpi as a halfback in front of the two central defenders and to the right. This way Azpi gets to go up and knock on opponents doors and tell Luiz to stay back and clean up the mess. I reckon in the next few week's I am going to be Chelsea FM fans biggest friend.

[Rashidi]

Basically this is what I arrived at. Essentially you get to see Azpi link up with Kante in the midfield to attack transitions. Alonso is a DW because of necessity. It allows Hazard to bolt and Alonso arrives when the ball is in the attack phase. What I wanted to capture was Azpi, Hazard and Pedro. If Azpi's movements can't be replicated,  then it won't be true to his movement which is something that's important to me, since he now plays a big part in their defence to mid transitions. The PIs sit narrower on Hazard and Pedro effectively turn them into AMCs. Like I said its still a work in progress..note how I still use CM(S) in midfield...

[Ceching You Out]

That's where I'd have Hazard on the left. Pedro is less a ball magnet on the right but like you say APM may still be the best way to get him to attack centrally which is critical to making space for the other two. Doesn't that role come with Close Down Less set? May impact pressing although that's a lesser priority in my opinion. Depending on mentality/shape, upping their creative freedom is worth considering since both are allowed to essentially cross the formation to form occasional overloads.

In earlier games Cahill and Azpi were more similarly aggressive bringing the ball out and stepping up as pivots. In the most recent games Cahill has played a little more conservatively while Azpi has been free to roam to the edge of the box, move wide to the touchline for overloads, or take space with the ball (especially against weaker opposition). I'm thinking the HB will give you that in offense especially coupled with a more aggressive mentality/shape; curious to see how he positions on defense.

Similarly, I can see the DW(s) giving Alonso the attacking thrust he supplies. Are you using fluid/very fluid to compress the mentalities so he and Azpi drop back? Luiz as DC instead of BPD if you're using fluid/very fluid since he'll still make long passes when they're on?

Edited December 16, 2016 by Ceching You Out

[Vico Vito Pep]

Does the half-back play the same way in FM17 as it did in previous games?

Looks good so far.  Seems you could play with a fluid or if you're feeling ballsy very fluid shape.

Were you playing with a slightly higher or higher line with that? 

[Lordluap]

but doesnt the half back drop BACK in possession initially but then close down and find himself out of position chasing balls upfield when defending??

[Rashidi]

Yeah the challenge is his positioning during the defensive phase, but during the buildup and attacking phase, it replicates Azpi almost perfectly. Basically there are two roles I like the Halfback and the Anchor Man. The anchor man seems to work a lot better.

[Rashidi]

With today's game against Palace, I rest my case that Azpilicueta should be treated as a halfback. I will accept the offensive movements even if I have the defensive vulnerabilities. Its a pity, but if we can tweak the HBs defensive movement this will be fun

 

[Lordluap]

How about this... using an IWB now they've been rehashed as the Azpi role??

[Lordluap]

And in defence...

 

[Lordluap]

The Set up...

[Rashidi]

It's possible to use the IWB but it leads to some strange positional effects

 

[Lordluap]

3 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

It's possible to use the IWB but it leads to some strange positional effects

 

From what I've seen so far it's pretty sound, no real strange effects

[Rashidi]

Oops sorry, I don't plan on playing  strikerless, I have no issues getting Hazard and Pedro to attack centrally, and Diego is wracking up great goals, a brace nearly every game. The downside of using the IWB is the gap between DC and IWB, since the IWB has a roam setting, this will present issues. Your system glosses over it because its strikerless.

.

.\

[drigaco]

On 17/12/2016 at 13:27, Rashidi said:

With today's game against Palace, I rest my case that Azpilicueta should be treated as a halfback. I will accept the offensive movements even if I have the defensive vulnerabilities. Its a pity, but if we can tweak the HBs defensive movement this will be fun

 

I tried the half-back but even playing him more to the right he goes central a lot and azpi stays on that half space between right and center, he doesn't roam from there. Other things that neither halfbacks or central defenders do is cross and azpi puts some crosses at a time, even assists sometimes.

[Rashidi]

I am settling on using an Anchor now instead of using the halfback. I don't like how the Halfback ends up losing his bearings.

The anchor has been getting a few assists for me so far,  a lot more comfortable using him than a halfback. 

[grazdoztrez]

@Contexx Just wanted to say great reading your opinions on here.  I've yet to get fully engrossed in FM17, but will definitely take your points on board.   How have you done with the 3-4-3? Are Hoffenheim still bossing the Bundesliga?

I'd like to say a general thanks, as there's been some real good info in this thread, I hope it keeps going!

I too am trying to jump on the 3-4-3 bandwagon.  Despite a lot of fun with three striker formations in FM15 (skipped FM16), I need some soul to my football and tactics.   I'm not dead set on perfecting the Conte system, I just want enjoyable football with good results.  So far in my attempts the AML/R have been isolated and fairly absent throughout matches.  Furthermore the gulf in which the MCs randomly run around the middle of the park doing very little has my team completely inept.

Has anyone got updates on their saves/tactics?  Anyone solved the AML/R problem(s)?

 

 

[grazdoztrez]

Defensively, I've got it working well, although Kante comes very deep as MC(d) and Fabregas really closes a lot even his PI is to rarely close and then they end up chasing the same player.

But in attack we're struggling, two goals is a serious endeavour.  The team are creating chances, and good chances, but the play in general seems really laboured and not as lethal as the fairly attractive football we're playing.

[Rashidi]

Ok I've finished my replication, I am pretty happy with how they are playing top of the table and soaring..they only drew one match, that was back when I was still unsure about the roles. Other than that Costa scores in every single game. They get the congestion in midfield I was after, and they have the slight vulnerability down the right flank too.

If you want to find out more..I did detailed posts on my blog and did a series of youtube videos for it. I explain the tactic, my logic behind it and what I was going for. As always this is my interpretation and is not meant to be definitive. The goal was to enjoy the football they played,

 

[drigaco]

1 hour ago, Rashidi said:

Ok I've finished my replication, I am pretty happy with how they are playing top of the table and soaring..they only drew one match, that was back when I was still unsure about the roles. Other than that Costa scores in every single game. They get the congestion in midfield I was after, and they have the slight vulnerability down the right flank too.

If you want to find out more..I did detailed posts on my blog and did a series of youtube videos for it. I explain the tactic, my logic behind it and what I was going for. As always this is my interpretation and is not meant to be definitive. The goal was to enjoy the football they played,

 

Just watched your video, got a few questions : Don't you think Kanté gets forward a lot? It could be a good thing but he doesn't get into the opponent box that much in a game. He scored that goal against ManU but they weren't defending by that time. Other thing to point out is that we need another role on the CB. We can't replicate what Alaba ( Pep's Bayern), Kolarov ( recently in city) or Azpi ( chelsea) do. If we have a IWB because of 1/2 examples we need to have another role for the CB for the same reason. An Anchor Man or Half Back don't do what they do IRL. They don't come down to the backline and they don't cross or go wide or even shoot(Kolarov). Other than that I think you got it all, the double AP is our only choice to replicate that system and if Costa is scoring goals you got the attacking part right.

Edited December 19, 2016 by drigaco

[djhagster]

2 hours ago, Rashidi said:

Ok I've finished my replication, I am pretty happy with how they are playing top of the table and soaring..they only drew one match, that was back when I was still unsure about the roles. Other than that Costa scores in every single game. They get the congestion in midfield I was after, and they have the slight vulnerability down the right flank too.

If you want to find out more..I did detailed posts on my blog and did a series of youtube videos for it. I explain the tactic, my logic behind it and what I was going for. As always this is my interpretation and is not meant to be definitive. The goal was to enjoy the football they played,

 

I am thinking of trying this with Salford City who I just got promoted to the Vanarama National League. Been wanting to do a 3-4-3 for ages but never got it right. I have the players for these roles so its worth a go! 

[Rashidi]

Whoa that was what I was afraid of...ok if you do it with another team, that setup works with Chelsea because they are good..you may want to consider a different combo at the back probably a CDx2 with a Libero at the back...or a CD(ST)CD(Cover)CDStopper...you don't need to change much upfront. In fact if I were nonleague I would look at a 3man with that option

[Rashidi]

29 minutes ago, drigaco said:

Just watched your video, got a few questions : Don't you think Kanté gets forward a lot? It could be a good thing but he doesn't get into the opponent box that much in a game. He scored that goal against ManU but they weren't defending by that time. Other thing to point out is that we need another role on the CB. We can't replicate what Alaba ( Pep's Bayern), Kolarov ( recently in city) or Azpi ( chelsea) do. If we have a IWB because of 1/2 examples we need to have another role for the CB for the same reason. An Anchor Man or Half Back don't do what they do IRL. They don't come down to the backline and they don't cross or go wide or even shoot(Kolarov). Other than that I think you got it all, the double AP is our only choice to replicate that system and if Costa is scoring goals you got the attacking part right.

Kante does get up a fair bit in real life...if you don't want him to do that just set him to CD(S) and remove roam. Yeah I agree there are limitations to what the roles are doing and yup this is something I will draw their attention to going forward if the Azpil play becomes a central feature of Chelsea.

[djhagster]

20 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

Whoa that was what I was afraid of...ok if you do it with another team, that setup works with Chelsea because they are good..you may want to consider a different combo at the back probably a CDx2 with a Libero at the back...or a CD(ST)CD(Cover)CDStopper...you don't need to change much upfront. In fact if I were nonleague I would look at a 3man with that option

thanks for the tips very helpful. I have the players to do a 3 up top and with AP's so will give it a go. If it is a 3 I would probably go with 2 DLF's flanking an AF but will have to see how that goes.

[Zlatan11]

The 3 at the back should be all CB, the problem for me are the positions of those 3 infront......as aml/r they don't cut inside enough and if you play them amc they don't defend.....

[grazdoztrez]

For the life of me I can't create goals, and can't get Hazard to function as a AML IF(a).   If I can't get Hazard to score/assist/be involved how will it work somewhere else.

 

Edit:  Sorry, I realise that statement isn't helpful to anyone.   From observing the match engine, I think the problem is, that Hazard (AML IF(a)) is lining up next to the opposition FB.   He doesn't get behind and when he cuts in, he basically runs in front of their back line.   This usually results in the ball being played back to the always too deep MCs, or he shoots wildly to the right.   Thinking out loud, perhaps where I have Costa playing DLF(s) he is not pushing/pulling the D-line so that Hazard can find space.   Another note on the IF play, if he gets the ball deep, he cuts in straight away, which just means he's running into trouble - any ideas how to stop this?  Perhaps do I need to make AML a uber attacking winger instead?   BTW; I'm not seeking immaculate recreation here, just a functioning attractive football 3-4-3.

Edited December 19, 2016 by grazdoztrez

[FMWolf]

A bit off topic here, but I've the exact same problem with my AML: lack of penetrative runs and he really doens't exploit the space between the opposition FB and CD. I've recently exposed this on my thread. I guess you would see a very similar type of behaviour to yours on the screenshots I've there

[grazdoztrez]

Thank goodness I'm not alone.   I'll try and have a play around when I am at home later, I think I'll attempt varying concepts like a out and out attacking winger? Perhaps I'll make a hideous asymetircal change and move AML -> AMCL and make him a treq or something.   I definitely need to find a way to get the midfield working better too.   Or perhaps pushing the MCL forward but with a very supporting role, even dropping back, would push the AML further forward... I love thinking out loud.

[Contexx]

Quote

@Contexx Just wanted to say great reading your opinions on here.  I've yet to get fully engrossed in FM17, but will definitely take your points on board.   How have you done with the 3-4-3? Are Hoffenheim still bossing the Bundesliga?

The Hoffe are indeed still bossing the Budesliga and we're on our way to securing the third CL trophy in a row.  The system is pretty much the same although it's evolved due to having better players.  I don't want o hijack the thread too much as it's going into a new direction, and perhaps I should start my own humble little thread, but with teams now starting to treat us as one of the big boys in the league, we've had to attack more, which ironically is starting to happen with reducing mentality and pulling back the wide men in order to make more of a 541 when defending, and morphing into a 343 in attack.  Using the inverted wingback has also been a bit of revelation, particularly when attacking as it allows for one of my cm's to bomb forward and seems to really put the AI (who obviously didn't get the new patch yet), in a bit of confusion.

The system is still very solid, with focus on defense above all - apart from a blip when we went a bit braindead in defense having wrapped up the title already, we don't allow more than 25 goals in a season,  and it certainly fares better in the CL where teams have more quality and are more willing to attack.  The most difficult types of opponents are aggressive and defensive teams which are happy to sit back and break knees when defending and go direct when attacking. 

I'd give a lot of credit to Rashidi for his videos and helping me understand the effects of changing shape.  In this type of system, it is very important because of its reliance of overloads in particular areas, depending on opponent and personnel (of course). Having a Kante is never going to be the same as having a Krenvitter, just as a Costa gives you something different from a Kramaric.   I'll start a humble thread and let this one Conte on...

[grazdoztrez]

9 hours ago, Contexx said:

The Hoffe are indeed still bossing the Budesliga and we're on our way to securing the third CL trophy in a row.  The system is pretty much the same although it's evolved due to having better players.  I don't want o hijack the thread too much as it's going into a new direction, and perhaps I should start my own humble little thread, but with teams now starting to treat us as one of the big boys in the league, we've had to attack more, which ironically is starting to happen with reducing mentality and pulling back the wide men in order to make more of a 541 when defending, and morphing into a 343 in attack.  Using the inverted wingback has also been a bit of revelation, particularly when attacking as it allows for one of my cm's to bomb forward and seems to really put the AI (who obviously didn't get the new patch yet), in a bit of confusion.

The system is still very solid, with focus on defense above all - apart from a blip when we went a bit braindead in defense having wrapped up the title already, we don't allow more than 25 goals in a season,  and it certainly fares better in the CL where teams have more quality and are more willing to attack.  The most difficult types of opponents are aggressive and defensive teams which are happy to sit back and break knees when defending and go direct when attacking. 

I'd give a lot of credit to Rashidi for his videos and helping me understand the effects of changing shape.  In this type of system, it is very important because of its reliance of overloads in particular areas, depending on opponent and personnel (of course). Having a Kante is never going to be the same as having a Krenvitter, just as a Costa gives you something different from a Kramaric.   I'll start a humble thread and let this one Conte on...

Edit:  Sorry, horribly written and sounded like a drunken ramble.

So I was playing as HSV, and just couldn't score, after a fairly ok 1-0, 1-1, 1-1, 1-1, we went on to lose 0-1, 0-1, 0-1... I had to abandon the tactic as it just wasn't working.  I couldn't get consistent play from the MCs or AMs.   At times the first half of the game would disappear with 50-60% possession, but no shots or even highlights of build up.   I really want to use this tactic, and without giving into to three strikers or three SSs, but the AMs are so remote, and the MCs are either too deep or so far apart that it struggles to produce a working fluidity.  After not scoring for three, I ended up crumbling and resorted to a counter 4-2-3-1 formation which produced some goals, but we'd concede more.  Then a 4-1-2-2-1 IFs which did the same, except we couldn't score.   The board gave me a month, but 3 defeats and a draw later I resigned.

FM17 is kicking my arse right now, and I can't think how to save myself!  welp.

Edited December 20, 2016 by grazdoztrez

[grazdoztrez]

Props to @Rashidi, I should have watched your video earlier, great work on the Chelsea 3-4-3 replication, very well done.  BTW, watching from Germany, but am originally from England.

[Rashidi]

Thanks for letting me know :-)

[Vico Vito Pep]

On 12/19/2016 at 03:22, Rashidi said:

Ok I've finished my replication, I am pretty happy with how they are playing top of the table and soaring..they only drew one match, that was back when I was still unsure about the roles. Other than that Costa scores in every single game. They get the congestion in midfield I was after, and they have the slight vulnerability down the right flank too.

If you want to find out more..I did detailed posts on my blog and did a series of youtube videos for it. I explain the tactic, my logic behind it and what I was going for. As always this is my interpretation and is not meant to be definitive. The goal was to enjoy the football they played,

 

I play @totalfootball71 Verticalitá currently and Had fun integrating your tactic to what I already play with Gladbach. The only thing I tweaked was I kept shape at Flexible and toggled btwn Balanced & Fairly Wide in matches vs Darmstadt & DFB Pokal QF vs #B04. Results 3-0 and 2-0 respectively. Also because of my squad currently, I used Raumdauter on the Right in the Pedro Role for first match vs Darmstadt (started Raffael there) then switched back to AP-S with Raffael featuring again too.  I used Anchorman vs Darmstadt and Half-Back vs Leverkusen for the Azpilicueta role.

I attached my Passmap from the Darmstadt match -- Can't replicate that any better!

[Contexx]

@grazdoztrez It's not really a plug and play tactic and the problems of players far apart of far from the ball are actually not that hard to fix.  Anyway, good luck.  Hamburg have a pretty decent squad  so you should be fine...

[Rashidi]

23 hours ago, Vico Vito Pep said:

I play @totalfootball71 Verticalitá currently and Had fun integrating your tactic to what I already play with Gladbach. The only thing I tweaked was I kept shape at Flexible and toggled btwn Balanced & Fairly Wide in matches vs Darmstadt & DFB Pokal QF vs #B04. Results 3-0 and 2-0 respectively. Also because of my squad currently, I used Raumdauter on the Right in the Pedro Role for first match vs Darmstadt (started Raffael there) then switched back to AP-S with Raffael featuring again too.  I used Anchorman vs Darmstadt and Half-Back vs Leverkusen for the Azpilicueta role.

I attached my Passmap from the Darmstadt match -- Can't replicate that any better!

Perfectly formed triangles ...nice :-) I was hoping people would do that with the tactic.  Go out and make it their own.

[Ji-Sung Park]

This is why Rashidi is the man.

[Jean0987654321]

I got my own interpretation of the tactic. I'm still grabbing some players to help make it stronger. But, I got myself a lopsided 433 shape that morphs into a 3-4-2-1 in attack.

[ChelseaJr]