FM17 Help me make Conte's Chelsea 3-4-3

[RocheBag]

On 11/8/2016 at 14:36, Benoit2 said:

It's still wrong. In real life they don't just defend wide a little. Their defensive positioning in real life is wide by default, not ahead of Kanté and Matic. Aggressive closing down can then push them more forward in real life. By putting them at AMC, you're doing the exact opposite. You're asking them to defend ahead of Kante and Matic by default and only defend wide when closing down aggressively.

<snip>

I understand how the match engine works re formation shape being defensive position. That's the reason I've been saying the 4-2-3-1 wide formation (with CMs and AMR/L) doesn't exist in real life, and no one should use it in FM, since FM12.

However, my tactic defends nothing like the screenshot you've just shown, difference in instructions maybe. But my Hazard and Pedro press the fullbacks and then drop back into wide positions if the press doesn't work.

There was another comment (not sure if it was you or not) about Hazard and Pedro only pressing a little in certain situations. This is absolutely false. The front three press all out all the time, and what I see from them at AMC is much more representative of what I've watched from Chelsea. I've watched every match we've played 3-4-3 at least twice, most of them four or five times.

Putting them as inside forwards doesn't get them narrow enough. Watching our matches over and over, and looking at touch maps, Hazard and Pedro are extremely narrow, pop up on each other's side of the pitch to create overloads, and create from the middle of the pitch. I haven't been able to replicate this using inside forwards.

Edited November 9, 2016 by RocheBag

[permanentquandary]

Really great thread so far, and it's inspired me to achieve the goal of the thread.

This is what I've come up with. As you can see, it's a 5-4-1 that becomes a 3-4-3 in attack

I've not touched the TIs too much - all I know is that I do want to play out from the back. I set Shape up as Fluid, to ensure that the team defends more as a unit and has its creative freedom more unlocked, and I set Mentality as Control because I want to have a higher default defensive line, a higher level of pressing and have my players on attack duties more likely to get into attacking positions, which is really important for the two wide players. The mentality also reflects Chelsea's quality in the league.

I did however edit a lot of the player roles and all of them are set to Shoot Less Often to ensure the number of long shots currently pervading the match engine are reduced.

In addition

STC - Close Down More - i think this role otherwise best reflects Diego Costa's role IRL.
MR - Get Forward, Sit Narrower, Cut Inside With Ball, Dribble More. I used WM(S) to reflect Pedro/Willian's lower mentality and to help free up the right channel for Azpilicueta who will overlap, but then I added gets forward to get him into that front 3 I want. I feel like WM(S) is the best role to use because it's the most customisable. I also feel like the WM role is best because it doesn't discourage crossing but doesn't force the player wide either. Since we have a right footed player here, having the option to cross will be valuable.
MCR- otherwise unedited
MCL - otherwise unedited
ML - I wanted a Hazard that doesn't really defend but defends better than an IF(A). WP(A) makes perfect sense and this role as default should reflect his behaviour.
Both FB's - Dribble Less, Cross More Often, Stay Wider, Cross From Deep - idea is to have these players leave the dribbling to the wide two ahead of them, cross more often to provide an alternative method of assists/havoc, stay wider to stretch the opposition and provide wide relief, and cross from deep to discourage them from trying to take it past defenders as they are not really suited to it, and it also has the effect of playing balls behind the opposition defensive line, potentially before the opposition defense is properly organised.
DCR+DCL - pretty standard and left as default - looks like playing stoppers will open up too many gaps given the use of wingbacks.
DC - trying to make a sweeper that isn't a sweeper role, but keeps Luiz from doing anything too extravagant. A covering limited defender.

Edited November 10, 2016 by permanentquandary

[permanentquandary]

The only thing that's obvious to me about how to make this tactic better for Chelsea is to buy a couple of centre backs.  The quality is just not there!

[permanentquandary]

In attack

[smajliss]

10 hours ago, RocheBag said:

Putting them as inside forwards doesn't get them narrow enough. Watching our matches over and over, and looking at touch maps, Hazard and Pedro are extremely narrow, pop up on each other's side of the pitch to create overloads, and create from the middle of the pitch. I haven't been able to replicate this using inside forwards.

Have you tried the role Inside forward wtih instruction Sit narrower? And also team instruction Play narrower?

Edited November 10, 2016 by smajliss

[RocheBag]

6 hours ago, smajliss said:

Have you tried the role Inside forward wtih instruction Sit narrower? And also team instruction Play narrower?

I have not. But in my experience with FM, there is nothing you can do to get both wide men on the same flank at the same time. This is a big part of Chelsea's system, and the only way to replicate it in FM is to put them at AMC.

[Lobaeux4]

I use the same formation as JNOUnited, but with different roles as well.   

 

Ive generally been pleased with the tactic when my preferred players are in.    The issue becomes when the injury monster rears its ugly head.   I'm finding this style of Conte's play is not portable, it's truly based on the players available.  Terry, Ivanovic, Mikel, Fabregas, Oscra, Willian and Cahill are really struggling.  RLC is just awful in this version and this tactic, but Chalobah has been a revelation at CD filling in for Luiz, Luiz gets too tired to finish most games.  

[Ceching You Out]

17 hours ago, RocheBag said:

I understand how the match engine works re formation shape being defensive position. That's the reason I've been saying the 4-2-3-1 wide formation (with CMs and AMR/L) doesn't exist in real life, and no one should use it in FM, since FM12.

However, my tactic defends nothing like the screenshot you've just shown, difference in instructions maybe. But my Hazard and Pedro press the fullbacks and then drop back into wide positions if the press doesn't work.

There was another comment (not sure if it was you or not) about Hazard and Pedro only pressing a little in certain situations. This is absolutely false. The front three press all out all the time, and what I see from them at AMC is much more representative of what I've watched from Chelsea. I've watched every match we've played 3-4-3 at least twice, most of them four or five times.

Putting them as inside forwards doesn't get them narrow enough. Watching our matches over and over, and looking at touch maps, Hazard and Pedro are extremely narrow, pop up on each other's side of the pitch to create overloads, and create from the middle of the pitch. I haven't been able to replicate this using inside forwards.

The 4-2-3-1 absolutely does exist in real life, it's just much rarer than the FM equivalent and mostly played by very attacking, high press teams. Anyway, I was the one that made the comment about Hazard and Pedro's closing down; you're horribly butchering it. Regardless of how many times you've watched the game, here's what I actually said:

Quote

Pedro and Hazard sometimes close down aggressively (depending on opponent), but otherwise drop to the wings on defense the longer Chelsea is out of possession. They sit a little bit forward compared to a 5-4-1, mostly occupying the space and occasionally closing down when it might spark a counter. AML/AMR is probably the right place for that behavior.

Depending on the opponent, Hazard and Pedro vary in how much they close down. Some games they're very aggressive (Everton), others they're more opportunistic (Utd). Costa will occasionally press the backline on his own, but Hazard and Pedro generally only press when they have support from the WBs and CMs. When those players are deep (as they are more frequently against more dangerous sides) they'll drop back to the narrow spaces on the wings to keep shape and look to break when we win the ball back.

From an offensive perspective, I'd agree. They both gravitate towards the center and are free to make runs across the formation depending on Costa's positioning. Really need a slot between AMR/AML and AMC  in FM to get them to play in the half space.

[mhaffy]

I find that playing Hazard AP(A) in AML slot of my "3-4-3", with sit narrower, sees him gravitating centrally, dribbling from deep, and providing some defensive cover, albeit limited, on flank when out of possession. One of his traits is Comes deep to get the ball, and this seems to fit well with this role in a 3-4-3 set up.

[Dead Man]

13 hours ago, permanentquandary said:

Really great thread so far, and it's inspired me to achieve the goal of the thread.

This is what I've come up with. As you can see, it's a 5-4-1 that becomes a 3-4-3 in attack

I've not touched the TIs too much - all I know is that I do want to play out from the back. I set Shape up as Fluid, to ensure that the team defends more as a unit and has its creative freedom more unlocked, and I set Mentality as Control because I want to have a higher default defensive line, a higher level of pressing and have my players on attack duties more likely to get into attacking positions, which is really important for the two wide players. The mentality also reflects Chelsea's quality in the league.

I did however edit a lot of the player roles and all of them are set to Shoot Less Often to ensure the number of long shots currently pervading the match engine are reduced.

In addition

STC - Close Down More - i think this role otherwise best reflects Diego Costa's role IRL.
MR - Get Forward, Sit Narrower, Cut Inside With Ball, Dribble More. I used WM(S) to reflect Pedro/Willian's lower mentality and to help free up the right channel for Azpilicueta who will overlap, but then I added gets forward to get him into that front 3 I want. I feel like WM(S) is the best role to use because it's the most customisable. I also feel like the WM role is best because it doesn't discourage crossing but doesn't force the player wide either. Since we have a right footed player here, having the option to cross will be valuable.
MCR- otherwise unedited
MCL - otherwise unedited
ML - I wanted a Hazard that doesn't really defend but defends better than an IF(A). WP(A) makes perfect sense and this role as default should reflect his behaviour.
Both FB's - Dribble Less, Cross More Often, Stay Wider, Cross From Deep - idea is to have these players leave the dribbling to the wide two ahead of them, cross more often to provide an alternative method of assists/havoc, stay wider to stretch the opposition and provide wide relief, and cross from deep to discourage them from trying to take it past defenders as they are not really suited to it, and it also has the effect of playing balls behind the opposition defensive line, potentially before the opposition defense is properly organised.
DCR+DCL - pretty standard and left as default - looks like playing stoppers will open up too many gaps given the use of wingbacks.
DC - trying to make a sweeper that isn't a sweeper role, but keeps Luiz from doing anything too extravagant. A covering limited defender.

hi

great job, any news or updates? any results?

any link to the tactic?

cheers

[poma]

Tactical masterclass

 

[Lordluap]

On 11/9/2016 at 16:12, drigaco said:

But then you don't defend as 5-4-1 or even 5-2 when the strikers don't want to defend.

Yes you do.  The back 4 plus the left sided wingback drops in to make a 5-2-3/5-4-1

 

[Zlatan11]

1 hour ago, poma said:

Tactical masterclass

 

With Pedro-Hazard IF doesn't work?

[drigaco]

1 hour ago, Lordluap said:

Yes you do.  The back 4 plus the left sided wingback drops in to make a 5-2-3/5-4-1

 

Can you show the screenshots? Or some more info about your tactic so we can try it.

[stockportguy86]

3 hours ago, poma said:

Tactical masterclass

 

Could this work with LLM manager or will be an epic fail? 

[RocheBag]

15 hours ago, stockportguy86 said:

Could this work with LLM manager or will be an epic fail? 

Anything can work at any level. The whole "don't confuse lower league players with exotic systems" thing is a myth.

[nasipepes]

On 9/11/2016 at 16:02, pilif25 said:

That's my take on it. 

1) Having a sweeper makes the back 3 stay narrower than a flat 3 CBs, so we don't get destroyed by 2-strikers formations.

2) Strikerless gives that very deep defensive position + very nice link up play from our "striker".

3) Volland as an IWB to emulate Moses' cut-inside-movement. Wendell more conservative (Marcos Alonso).

4) Double AP on the wings so we play to them quickly AND FREQUENTLY. They also have "sit narrower" to give us that halfspace penetration.

 

i'm curious, is there any other solution to make the back 3 a bit narrower besides getting a sweeper behind 2 center-halves?

Edited November 11, 2016 by nasipepes

[Lordluap]

3 hours ago, nasipepes said:

i'm curious, is there any other solution to make the back 3 a bit narrower besides getting a sweeper behind 2 center-halves?

yes... BUT... Its not ideal as it means you cannot play the ball out of defence.

 

if you ask the keeper to kick the ball long/over defence, your back 3 (2+sweeper) will sit narrower *most* of the time.

 

Or play a flat back 4 with a sweeper behind,  But then the 2 opposing strikers will get behind your CBs and 2 on 1 with your sweeper.

 

 

Edited November 11, 2016 by Lordluap

[poma]

On 11/10/2016 at 22:54, Zlatan11 said:

With Pedro-Hazard IF doesn't work?

No, not as good as this. They block the space for WB's.

 

[poma]

On 11/11/2016 at 00:28, stockportguy86 said:

Could this work with LLM manager or will be an epic fail? 

Don't know, just try.

[djhagster]

i am giving this a go with Aachen in German 4th tier. playing ok so far but find playing out from the back leads to poor ratings for left and right sided CB's. Also playing with 2 DM's not CM's. Still tinkering but promising start.

FInding putting the WBs on CWB role helps push the IF's inside more btw. Also put the CB's on Defensive CB role helps for LLM.

After more testing will post some screenshots.

[acmilano112000]

On 11/10/2016 at 12:54, Ceching You Out said:

Really need a slot between AMR/AML and AMC  in FM to get them to play in the half space.

Hi everyone. Been reading this thread since it began, reading external articles on Conte's recent system, and watched the recent matches. I'm trying to make a version of the tactic for my Torino FM16 squad.

This tactic is CLEARLY crying out to be strikerless with 3 AMCs. 

Map from the Everton game. Who is the striker, anyhow?

Even in each of your great methods so far -- everyone is getting at this from all angles but it hasn't been said yet. (The Leverkusen guy is going strikerless but keeping the AML/AMR that are causing everyone else headaches. A few people are going 3 across the ST band but then having issues with them not defending. Others are just debating between 2 narrow AMCs and 2 wide AML/AMR, and there is an issue with each that has been made clear.)

What has bothered me forever about FM is that when you play 3 players in the center of any band (3 CBs, 3 CMs, 3 AMCs, etc) the wider two play in these terrific half-space positions. But when you remove the center player, then it automatically narrows the other two. Like you can't have them in those slots without a central guy pushing them apart. Which is stupid because if the game engine can handle them there then I should be able to instruct it if I want. 

IDEALLY I think we would all agree we want to move Aouar up to ST and have Pjaca and Bernardeschi remain exactly where they are, at AMCL and AMCR. But as you all know as soon as I move him up, the two AMCs will narrow back to where @RocheBag has been using them. Which for reasons you've all been back and forth about isn't perfect.

My sense is that the evolution of what we want is to play strikerless with 3 AMCs and get the "Hazard"/"Pedro" roles perfectly lined up in the half spaces. They can defend wider than Matic/Kante but not as wide as the Wing Backs, and they can roam wherever on attack. 

The only issue left then is getting the "Diego Costa" role, Aouar in my Torino team, the central AMC to act more like a striker. Which I think can be achieved by just some testing of various PI's. 

I'll be starting with the AMC as a SS because the definition sounds most like what I want. "...main goalscoring threat... aggressively pushes forward into goalscoring positions when the ball moves into the final third and looks to close down opposing defenders when out of possession." This sounds like a central forward. The only downside I expect is that I'm not able to use the PI "Hold Up Ball", which Costa seems to do. 

I've also put Bernardeschi in the "Pedro" role as a AM(s) because I want that depth of positioning among them instead of an entire band of 3 on (a). Also this gives him a deeper base position but I used very aggressive PI's like "Dribble More", "Get Further Forward", and "Move into Channels". 

Pjaca in the "Hazard" role has default PI's for AP(a) plus "Roams from Position".

 

Going to see how this goes. I expect I'll be fiddling with instructions to the front 3, especially the central one, but at least I should have the Hazard / Pedro roles playing where I want them. Hopefully that brings us all one step closer. 

Edited November 13, 2016 by acmilano112000

[Ceching You Out]

3 minutes ago, acmilano112000 said:

*Snip*

I'll be starting with the AMC as a SS because the definition sounds most like what I want. "...main goalscoring threat... aggressively pushes forward into goalscoring positions when the ball moves into the final third and looks to close down opposing defenders when out of possession." This sounds like a central forward. The only downside I expect is that I'm not able to use the PI "Hold Up Ball", which Costa seems to do. 

I've also put Bernardeschi in the "Pedro" role as a AM(s) because I want that depth of positioning among them instead of an entire band of 3 on (a). Also this gives him a deeper base position but I used very aggressive PI's like "Dribble More", "Get Further Forward", and "Move into Channels". 

Pjaca in the "Hazard" role has default PI's for AP(a) plus "Roams from Position".

 

Going to see how this goes. I expect I'll be fiddling with instructions to the front 3, especially the central one, but at least I should have the Hazard / Pedro roles playing where I want them. Hopefully that brings us all one step closer. 

 

I'm excited to see how you get on with that. On paper I can see how it would come together if you can get "Costa" right. I'm not sure "Hold Up Ball" will be missed too much if he's starting deeper. Don't think he'll just bomb forward solo with options around. Keeping him from dropping too deep on defense might be the bigger challenge; eliminates the outlet that he provides. Definitely let us know how it works!

[Anaconda Vice]

https://dpfm.dk/2016/11/12/the-3-4-3-experiment/

Could be an interesting read for you guys.

[loklokno123]

On 2016/11/11 at 04:18, poma said:

Tactical masterclass

 

So effective when counterattacking

[poma]

11 minutes ago, loklokno123 said:

So effective when counterattacking

So you are using the same setup?

[Dead Man]

56 minutes ago, loklokno123 said:

So effective when counterattacking

hi

can you put a screenshot of the team instructions? and player instructions?

cheers

Edited November 13, 2016 by Dead Man

[poma]

1 hour ago, Dead Man said:

hi

can you put a screenshot of the team instructions? and player instructions?

cheers

The team instructions are all there in the screenshot, no player instructions.

[Ceching You Out]

5 hours ago, poma said:

The team instructions are all there in the screenshot, no player instructions.

How effective are Hazard and Pedro at getting back defensively from those positions?

[strong centrehalf]

So far I've been experimenting before I start my main save and have been quite happy with the average shape of this so far, I have costa and hazard  swap ping position which seems to keep hazard closer to costa, and as a ramdeutner that gives hazard carte blanche to do as he pleases, got to play aload of games with it yet but seems like it could be promising.

 

[acmilano112000]

An update and a question.

Update first. Played a few games with this lineup. Control/Fluid. Play out of D, Normal Tempo, Fairly Wide, Retain Poss, Look for Overlap. 

• Bernardeschi in the "Pedro" role as a AM(s) but added very aggressive PI's "Dribble More", "Get Further Forward", and "Move into Channels".
• Pjaca in the "Hazard" role has default PI's for AP(a) plus "Roams from Position".

It led to average positioning like this, compared to what we saw in the real Everton game (right).

           

Simple things can be tweaked if I want to make it match up more, like my CMR Cubas could be BWM(s) rather than (d) if I want my CMs flatter like Chelsea has. The central CB is very difficult to get to drop, so we'll leave that alone for now. I tried sweeper later and it barely made a difference. 

As I said before, the purpose of this was to solve the Hazard / Pedro roles. For me, Pjaca #10 and Bernardeschi #11 in my friendly. Some moves from the game below illustrate why I was very pleased with this replication of the Hazard role in particular. You can see two moves here that show Pjaca's roaming during our buildup and how he comes close to the WBL to offer a pass, but also will float over to the right of the striker (Aouar) and get involved on the other side when he sees fit.

Thats Pjaca (#10) at bottom partially hidden by the defender. Aouar (Costa role) is highlighted just for context.

 

And below, he came over to the right hand channel to get on the ball himself. 

What I like so far:

• Positioning of Hazard and Pedro roles.
• Defensive 3 very very sturdy in their positioning.
• Wing Backs just where they should be -- although taking forever to cross the ball.

What I don't like:

• Positioning of Costa role is fine but due to the strikerless formation he doesn't post up as a target in the box enough, or at least higher than Hazard/Pedro. So without enough depth to our attack, we end up sort of giving up and passing a lot of balls to the wing backs that ought to have gone more incisively into Costa's feet. I added "exploit the middle" TI to combat this and it helped a bit. 
• Wide CB's don't push up enough to be useful for a pass from the pressured Wing Backs. Instead the Wing Backs ignore them and play to the CMs, sometimes forcing flat passes that the CB could ideally help swing over much more safely.
• When the Wing Backs receive the ball swung to them with nobody near them in attacking positions (as is one of the benefits of the overload in this formation), they refuse to play the cross and instead wait for a defender to get to them and then try to take him on. Horrible. 

Further experimenting is going to require putting all 3 front players as a flat 3 ST rather than AMC. To see if that does better with having the central striker in a more useful spot at the top of the box during our possession in the attacking third. I also am tempted to try an offset AMC, an ST, and an AMR/L on the other side. 

Question for the group -- What wing AM role do we think makes the player play furthest inside? Assuming all helpful PI's are ticked like "Sit narrower", and "Roam from position" 

Raum? IF? AP?

 

Edited November 14, 2016 by acmilano112000

[Ceching You Out]

37 minutes ago, acmilano112000 said:

*Snip*

What I don't like:

• Positioning of Costa role is fine but due to the strikerless formation he doesn't post up as a target in the box enough, or at least higher than Hazard/Pedro. So without enough depth to our attack, we end up sort of giving up and passing a lot of balls to the wing backs that ought to have gone more incisively into Costa's feet. I added "exploit the middle" TI to combat this and it helped a bit. 
• Wide CB's don't push up enough to be useful for a pass from the pressured Wing Backs. Instead the Wing Backs ignore them and play to the CMs, sometimes forcing flat passes that the CB could ideally help swing over much more safely.
• When the Wing Backs receive the ball swung to them with nobody near them in attacking positions (as is one of the benefits of the overload in this formation), they refuse to play the cross and instead wait for a defender to get to them and then try to take him on. Horrible. 

Further experimenting is going to require putting all 3 front players as a flat 3 ST rather than AMC. To see if that does better with having the central striker in a more useful spot at the top of the box during our possession in the attacking third. I also am tempted to try an offset AMC, an ST, and an AMR/L on the other side. 

Question for the group -- What wing AM role do we think makes the player play furthest inside? Assuming all helpful PI's are ticked like "Sit narrower", and "Roam from position" 

Raum? IF? AP?

 

Assuming you're on FM17, the third, bold bullet is a bug AFAIK. Seen it mentioned by a few folks that WBs are having some issues with holding the ball. What Shape and Mentality are you using? Wonder if the second bullet could be improved with a change there.

My hunch for the role would be AP. I would expect the RMD to float more, the IF to stay wider until the final third.

 

[scottya86]

Can someone put their tactic up as a download for this 343 formation please? Struggling to recreate it myself, cheers 

[acmilano112000]

@Ceching You Out this is actually on FM16. 

I'm Control/Fluid. I agree, potentially the urgency of the WB playing the ball could be modified with this, but for now I'm focusing on the overall shape and those 3 tricky roles up top so I'll comeback to the WB once I get those to my liking.

[Dead Man]

On 14/11/2016 at 17:35, strong centrehalf said:

So far I've been experimenting before I start my main save and have been quite happy with the average shape of this so far, I have costa and hazard  swap ping position which seems to keep hazard closer to costa, and as a ramdeutner that gives hazard carte blanche to do as he pleases, got to play aload of games with it yet but seems like it could be promising.

 

hi

any update or results?

cheers

[acmilano112000]

On 11/14/2016 at 12:35, strong centrehalf said:

So far I've been experimenting before I start my main save and have been quite happy with the average shape of this so far, I have costa and hazard  swap ping position which seems to keep hazard closer to costa,

I could be missing something but this doesn't make sense to me. 

All it does to have them swap positions is that they each take a turn in each others' spots for a bit and then go back. It is to throw off man marking, etc. 

This doesn't get them playing closer together at all. It just appears that way in your average positions map because that shows each player as the average of spending approx half the game in one position and half in the other. As far as where your players are on the pitch at any given moment you are playing exactly as if you didn't have "swap positions" ticked at all. 

Edited November 15, 2016 by acmilano112000

[loklokno123]

On 2016/11/13 at 22:58, poma said:

So you are using the same setup?

yes 

 

[strong centrehalf]

22 hours ago, acmilano112000 said:

I could be missing something but this doesn't make sense to me. 

All it does to have them swap positions is that they each take a turn in each others' spots for a bit and then go back. It is to throw off man marking, etc. 

This doesn't get them playing closer together at all. It just appears that way in your average positions map because that shows each player as the average of spending approx half the game in one position and half in the other. As far as where your players are on the pitch at any given moment you are playing exactly as if you didn't have "swap positions" ticked at all. 

I realise that but its a way to get hazard playing as auxiliary striker off costa, haven't been able to play much (loads of work on) since that post so will keep tinkering with it and see how it goes

[poma]

On 11/16/2016 at 12:21, loklokno123 said:

yes 

 

Nice, how is it working for you? Playing as Chelsea right?

[Shameless1]

This are the position of conte's chelsea

Against Everton

 

type of passages:

 

Against southampton

Passing style:

 

against man utd

 

Average position:

 

Type of passages

 

mathc things:

[mhaffy]

On 17/11/2016 at 17:08, mhaffy said:

In answer to your question, my initial save ended in tears circa February with me getting sacked. Season started well but I had problems with trying to get 3-4-3 working consistently. Three CD's and two WB's (not defensive wingers) was my go to set up but I had trouble getting central midfield pair set up securely. I deployed DLP (Support) and B2B and, like Pancakes above, found that all too often we would lose our shape and be overrun in midfield. With wing backs in place, the FM match engine does result in the back line becoming a 5 when out of possession and a 3 when in possession. However, it almost seems too passive, with the midfield pair often unable to break play up and the opposition appearing to be "invited" to come on to us. Through balls between our 5 man defensive line or "over the top" when we lost possession and had back 3 in place were a recurring issue. Moving my middle CD up to Defensive midfield and dropping wing backs to full back slots helped shore things up but this was not the formation I wanted to go with.....3-4-3 was the go to formation I really wanted to deploy.

I have been following a thread in the tactics section of the forum with great interest "Contes 3-4-3", but there was no "silver bullet" to be found. It was time for me to "go back to the drawing board". Time to experiment with tactics on FM Touch (100% familiarity). I tried numerous combinations, formations, instructions and went "On Holiday" to see how results panned out over 1/2 a season. My go to mentality has been Control with my team shape during "testing" being mainly either fluid or flexible. Having re-read WWFan 12 Step Guide, it occurred to me that the shape I was choosing (Flexible of Fluid) needed revisiting.

The 3-4-3 formation that I have "firmed up on" for now, and which will be the starting point of my next full game save is Control/Structured as follows:

A no frills back 3, with David Luiz in the centre as CD(Cover) - I resisted the temptation to set him as a Ball Playing Defender. No additional player instructions added for these 3.

During beta testing, Alonso performed really well as WB(A) and I decided to go with both my wing backs on attack duty to give me width. I added the "Stay Wider" instruction to both as I wanted both players ahead of the Wing Backs to move into more central positions - particularly Hazard. One thing that I am finding frustrating with the current match engine is the way wide players, wing backs in my case, often fail to put in a cross when I expect them to - they hesitate/delay! It gives the opposition time to close them down/dispossess them...cross it!! I believe this has been raised in the bugs forums....

For my midfield duo I have gone for a CM(Defend) with a B2B (the excellent Kante). As I mentioned earlier, playing a DLP seems to lead to the midfield being overrun with the opposition advancing on the back 5. I thought about a Ball Winning Midfielder but felt that this, too, would probably disrupt my shape and expose my back 5. A no frills CM(Defend) seemed the logical choice to help provide some cover for my defence, giving me four players on defend duty to hopefully keep things relatively tight and give my attacking players a solid platform on which to build. No additional player instructions have been applied to my midfield duo.

In attack, I clearly wanted to be able to "free" up Hazard and have him pulling the strings. I set him as Advanced Playmaker on Attack but added several player instructions to the default ones that are preset for AP(A):

Get Further Forward, Roam from Position, Sit Narrower, Close Down Much More.

One of Hazards traits is Comes deep to get the ball. This is fine, particularly with me telling him to roam from position, but I do want him driving forward when the opportunity arises; hence my adding Get Further Forward. Hazard for Chelsea has been playing a lot more centrally, not staying out wide. To try and incorporate this in FM, I added Sit Narrower to Hazard, as Alonso will be bombing forward on the wing (with Stay Wider) to maintain width. Under Conte, Hazard has been given more licence to roam and seems to have been freed up from the tracking back that Mourinho demanded of his wide players. In my FM interpretation, I want Hazard to be relatively free and hence have added Roam from Position but I do still expect him to provide an element of "cover" and have added Close Down Much More......

At AMR (Willian) I have gone with an Inside Forward on Attack. This will see him cut inside and run at the defence. To exacerbate the movement inside (as the Wing Back behind him will be Staying Wider to provide width), I have added Sit Narrower. Like Hazard, I expect my AMR to provide some element of defensive work and have added Close Down Much More.

With my lone striker (Costa), I was torn between Deep Lying Forward, and Defensive Forward. In my "failed" first save Costa was performing well as Deep Lying Forward on Attack duty, but for this attempt at 3-4-3, I decided to go with a modified Defensive Forward. Both my wide men have been set to attack and Kante, as B2B, will be getting forward to support my attacks, so I wanted someone to harass the opposition back line and provide a attacking threat. A Defensive Forward on Support seemed ideal for this but I added two player instructions - Dribble More (Costa does seem to like the occasional dribble in real life) and Move Into Channels (to hopefully create space, opportunities for my attacking wide men as they come inside).

Time now for a quick look at my team set up - Control, Structured, with 12 Team Instructions.

Abramovich expects Possession based, attacking football in FM and this has influenced my set up choices. The first sentence of the description for Control seems spot on - "This mentality is best employed for matches in which you believe you are the stronger team but are wary of your opponents counter-attacking threat". This ticks both boxes for me - we will usually be the stronger team and I am wary, with a back 3, of opposition counter attacks. My choice of 12 team instructions seems a lot, but they seemed to help give me what I wanted in terms of playstyle.

Retain Possession, Play Out of Defence, Lower Tempo and Work Ball Into Box, should all hopefully help deliver a possession based approach.

With both my Wing Backs on attack and staying wider, adding Exploit left/right flanks, and look for overlap (with AMR/AML cutting inside) again seemed logical choices.

As I want to lead pressing from the front (Defensive forward and both AMR/AML told to Close Down more), I added Prevent Goalkeeper Distribution and Push Higher Up. I also added Get Stuck In for good measure........

My choice of Play Narrower may seem at odds with me wanting width on flanks from my Wing Backs. However, I want to remain reasonable compact and this will hopefully minimise risk of large gaps for opponents to exploit with through balls.

The Chelsea squad has good attributes for Decisions, Vision, Flair and Passing so adding the instruction to Be More Expressive during the build up phase should be a relatively safe, and hopefully beneficial choice.

For Team Shape I have chosen Structured, in part because I want the team to maintain its shape.

Time to play, and observe, my first competitive match of the season...at home to Burnley. The team is as per the formation shown previously and performed remarkably well.

Average positions without the ball were a back 5, shielded by my midfield pair - particularly my CM(D),Matic:

With the ball, my Wing Backs bombed forward, Hazard and Willian dropped centrally and my back 3 fanned out across the defensive line:

My overall average shape/heatmap was as follows:

Possession and control of the game was great. Good control in midfield, plenty of attacking threat in the final third with a good spread of Attack Focus - 47% centrally, 29% left flank (Alonzo/Hazard, my playmaker) and 25% right flank ("Dave"/Willian).

 

Hazard played really well; roaming, creating, scoring.........

Diego Costa played a blinder scoring a hat trick and we ran out 5-1 winners......

58% possession, 32 shots, with an impressive 17 (53%) on target. Pity we didn't keep a clean sheet:

Being pleasantly surprised by the way the tactic worked, albeit in just one competitive match, (and keen to get going on a long term save), I decided to "Holiday" this tactic for half a season to see how it performed longer term.

Results, league table and player stats on return from "Holiday" were as follows:

 

Costa is top scorer in the league with 17 goals and 4 Chelsea players in the top 10 for average ratings (Hazard 2nd, Costa 3rd, Kante 6th, Luiz 8th).

Time to start a long term save again (hopefully more successful than my first attempt). No prizes for guessing the tactic I start out with!

Post from the FM17 Chelsea thread in Good Player & Team Guide that may be of interest to people following this thread.

[MrGol]

On 11/13/2016 at 04:02, acmilano112000 said:

What has bothered me forever about FM is that when you play 3 players in the center of any band (3 CBs, 3 CMs, 3 AMCs, etc) the wider two play in these terrific half-space positions. But when you remove the center player, then it automatically narrows the other two. Like you can't have them in those slots without a central guy pushing them apart. Which is stupid because if the game engine can handle them there then I should be able to instruct it if I want. 

Exactly! The most frustrating part is that it appears to be a restriction by the tactic screen, not the match engine.

Edited November 20, 2016 by MrGol

[saihtam]

Could people suggest how set up opposite instruction to replicate CHE pressure.

I play.
        DF
AP            IF
     CM CM
CWB        CWB 
     CDCDCD
 

[Zlatan11]

The Hazard and Pedro positions on fm now I think should be 2 F9 or DLF

[poma]

On 11/28/2016 at 21:05, Zlatan11 said:

The Hazard and Pedro positions on fm now I think should be 2 F9 or DLF

That's right! 3-4-3

Trequartista/Attack (Hazard), Defensive Forward/Support (Costa), F9/Support (Pedro)

Defensive Winger/Support (Alonso), CM/D or DLP/D (Matic), BBM/S (Kanté), Winger/Support (Moses)

CD/Defend, (Cahill), BPD/Cover (Luiz), CD/Stopper (Azpi)

GK/Defend (Courtois)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trequartista/Attack (Hazard), Defensive Forward/Support (Costa), F9/Support (Pedro)

CM/D or DLP/D (Matic), BBM/S (Kanté)

Wing Back/Support (Alonso), Complete Wing Back/Support (Moses)

CD/Defend, (Cahill), BPD/Cover (Luiz), CD/Stopper (Azpi)

GK/Defend (Courtois)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Defensive Forward/Support (Costa)

Advanced Playmaker/Attack (Hazard), Inside Forward/A (Pedro)

CM/D or DLP/D (Matic), BBM/S (Kanté)

Wing Back/Support (Alonso), Complete Wing Back/Support (Moses)

CD/Defend, (Cahill), BPD/Cover (Luiz), CD/Stopper (Azpi)

GK/Defend (Courtois)

Edited December 1, 2016 by poma

[Zlatan11]

5 hours ago, poma said:

That's right! 3-4-3

Trequartista/Attack (Hazard), Defensive Forward/Support (Costa), F9/Support (Pedro)

Defensive Winger/Support (Alonso), CM/D or DLP/D (Matic), BBM/S (Kanté), Winger/Support (Moses)

CD/Defend, (Cahill), BPD/Cover (Luiz), CD/Stopper (Azpi)

GK/Defend (Courtois)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Trequartista/Attack (Hazard), Defensive Forward/Support (Costa), F9/Support (Pedro)

CM/D or DLP/D (Matic), BBM/S (Kanté)

Wing Back/Support (Alonso), Complete Wing Back/Support (Moses)

CD/Defend, (Cahill), BPD/Cover (Luiz), CD/Stopper (Azpi)

GK/Defend (Courtois)

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Defensive Forward/Support (Costa)

Advanced Playmaker/Attack (Hazard), Inside Forward/A (Pedro)

CM/D or DLP/D (Matic), BBM/S (Kanté)

Wing Back/Support (Alonso), Complete Wing Back/Support (Moses)

CD/Defend, (Cahill), BPD/Cover (Luiz), CD/Stopper (Azpi)

GK/Defend (Courtois)

The 2nd formation probably the ideal

[Mike J]

Interesting stuff so far! I've stumbled into this sort of formation in my Boro save, mainly because of the good wide players and relative lack of MCs. I'm aware that I'm playing with a fairly weak side for the league but is anyone else having problems with passing/possession?

My passing in particular seems woeful and I think the 2 MCs are a little too exposed at times. I have one on BWM(D) and one on B2B(S) but I'm not sure that's quite working out. Anyone with a bit more experience with the formation have any advice?

Incidentally, my game so far has really driven home the need for the AML/R to cut inside. I originally had one as a winger and one as an IF but a small tweak to change the winger to an AP worked wonders for my attacking play. I also find that a more advanced striker is preferable in order to stretch the opposing defence. When I had a DLF up top it just seemed to make the opposition's life a lot easier as all the play was in front of them. Again, possibly as a result of playing as Boro and not a top team.

[saihtam]

On 28.11.2016 at 22:05, Zlatan11 said:

The Hazard and Pedro positions on fm now I think should be 2 F9 or DLF

Dissagree with this. Why?
Because if you play them as f9 or treq, they wont come back defending so much. Your trio will be staying more up. But hazard and Pedro are coming back deeper to hold midfield defense. This is one issue I still dont like in my tactics. 

Any suggestions how to make them come back more defending, also from av positsion it seems in defense i sit too narrow, any way to counter that?

Still needs tweaking but I have gained possession at least, not scoring very much and cant use this tactics every time.

 

[herne79]

22 minutes ago, saihtam said:

Any suggestions how to make them come back more defending

Bring your wide players back one notch to make a 5-4-1.

Chelsea basically defend as a 5-4-1, and the formation you see in the tactics creator is your defensive formation.  From reading through this thread I think many people are over thinking the attack and neglecting the defence (not aimed at you saitham).  This is why you see people above using two or three players in the AMC positions and never getting back to the 5-4-1 defence.  They just see the 3-4-3 in attack and focus on that.

Start with the defensive formation and use roles, duties and tactical settings to shape the attacking formation.  For example, put Hazard into the ML position and use the Wide Midfielder role with player instructions to replicate an Inside Forward.

[saihtam]

2 minutes ago, herne79 said:

Bring your wide players back one notch to make a 5-4-1.

Chelsea basically defend as a 5-4-1, and the formation you see in the tactics creator is your defensive formation.  From reading through this thread I think many people are over thinking the attack and neglecting the defence (not aimed at you saitham).  This is why you see people above using two or three players in the AMC positions and never getting back to the 5-4-1 defence.  They just see the 3-4-3 in attack and focus on that.

Start with the defensive formation and use roles, duties and tactical settings to shape the attacking formation.  For example, put Hazard into the ML position and use the Wide Midfielder role with player instructions to replicate an Inside Forward.

Interesting tough, but dont have players for wide midfielders in my team.

You would the use wide playmaker for Hazard? But for Pedro?
Also what roles for full backs then?