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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2017 Official Feedback Thread

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I've had about 15 conversations with different managers in regards to either not playing a loaned player in the agreed position or not being a first team regular, yet to have any of them turn around to justify why and give me a reason for it, instead they just say im right and start doing it. Usually have one or 2 in the last version that would either say the players in bad form or not good enough.

 

Anybody else experienced this or just me?

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Can someone confirm how passing % is calculated ie are throw ins and crosses counted as well as passes attempted(PA) and passes completed(PC)???  Is it GK, FB's & CD's for Defence?      In the examples shown        I get 244(PC)/285(PA)= 85.6%         , even factoring in every throw in and cross as a non completed pass gives 244/309= 78.96 and not the 75% given as passiing % for Defence in the game.        I could just be daft tho'   (I'm Liverpool BTW)                                                fmtest.png                                                          tactic.png                                                         fmtest2.png

Edited by buddiemirren
update

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I must say its quite amusing that as Middlesborough and lurking outside the bottom 3 I am getting tweets coming up saying " was good while it lasted" "Thats the end of our PL stay" "Congrats to Leicester, their place in the PL is secured after that" I wouldnt mind but it's been 12 games!!!!!!

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15 hours ago, FestyF said:

Because I'm not happy with some match engine issues.

Fair enough. Just seems extreme to not play at all when you clearly want to be playing...

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On 14.11.2016 at 13:31, Seb Wassell said:

Hey Svenc,

Thank you for the thought but this likely won't have as much of an impact as you think. Match and training injuries are separate, and in a sample size of 1000+ a few players starting matches at lower conditions than the human will not impact the overall result significantly. I do agree however that the AI should rotate more, if you have examples where the AI is obviously ignoring an opportunity/necessity to rotate then please do log them in the ME forum.

On a related note, I do believe a little too much emphasis can be placed by the human manager on condition, or high condition levels at least. The only player in your screenshot that I would say is in need of consideration is Walker at 83%, all the rest seem fine. As is often quoted in reality and most recently by Shearer on MOTD, no player is ever 100% once the season gets underway. For example, Jamie Vardy will have spent most of last season playing at well below 100%. likely significantly below, evidenced by the fact that he regularly had pain killing injections prior to matches and took one of the FA Cup weekends (once Leicester were eliminated) to undergo surgery on an ongoing issue.

Cheers,
Seb.

Thanks Seb, naturally if there was previous too much emphasis placed on condition, the old in-game text would fuel it. Any player below 90% of match condition used to be pretty much labeled as "tired" on previous releases. From what I gathered, condition levels in-match will only severely impact performances when falling under a certain much lower threshold, but naturally coming from those, you'd expect that to be a bit more impactful when you would field players that are / were clearly displayed as "tired", in particular concering how they might pick up additionally knocks/injuries. They'll also be down to lower levels by the end of matches naturally. It seems to happen during weeks of fixture congestion semi-regularly with AI sides (CL league, Cup), so it shouldn't be hard to find another couple matches with it (actually those were the first ones I actually opened up to take a look).
 

Anybody knows how to best run a quick performance test of formations? I applied to a couple of top EPL teams at a time for each sim, first City and Liverpool and told the Assistant to go with 4-4-2 (deep) and stick to that and holidayed. Saw the sack in November with both being in the relegation zone (assistant managers never underperformed themselves previously this much just cause). Did another two with Arsenal (9th by Decembre) and Tottenham (10th, ditto). That's not much reliable though. I can't fathom how this isolating of central midfielders couldn't impact on performance in and on itself in formations slight in men in that area, to be honest. The central areas are the shortest distance to goal, and this is no different in this, computer sim or not. The 4-4-2 deep would naturally further pronounce this, as it concedes the central space with both mids dropping off some on top of it.

For me this is the first FM version where I would actively shun away from some formations for the time being (and I switched them on any previous as I saw fit). Not arguing they're technically unplayable, but it's hard to stomach how they line up when defending as soon as the WMs sit out wide, even when facing narrow formations or full backs not advancing on both sides of the field, no matter where the ball carrier is. I understand there will always be limitations, but presumable plugging previous gaps out wide by opening the central spaces may open a whole different much more impactful can of worms, in particular as that rubs of on central backs too as soon as formations slight on central mids are overloaded.

Edited by Svenc

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For me, formations with wingers in this current ME are dead. Just switched to a narrow formation without wingers and faring much better. Such a pity. Hope next ME balances things out a bit. Wingers can't defend as it is. Really hope they improve GKs. Never seen a Gk rush out to intercept a low cross yet. Horrible. Hence why so many cross goals. Keepers aren't active enough to intercept. 

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14 minutes ago, Preveza said:

For me, formations with wingers in this current ME are dead. Just switched to a narrow formation without wingers and faring much better. Such a pity. Hope next ME balances things out a bit. Wingers can't defend as it is. Really hope they improve GKs. Never seen a Gk rush out to intercept a low cross yet. Horrible. Hence why so many cross goals. Keepers aren't active enough to intercept. 

Really? I'm playing a 4-2-3-1 and I use a winger on the right side and he's been the most influential player in the team for a few seasons. He also tracks back well and helps the fullback out. I'm predicted 20th in the prem and I'm up to 7th in January.

Edited by GriffiN94

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4 minutes ago, Preveza said:

For me, formations with wingers in this current ME are dead. Just switched to a narrow formation without wingers and faring much better. Such a pity. Hope next ME balances things out a bit. Wingers can't defend as it is. Really hope they improve GKs. Never seen a Gk rush out to intercept a low cross yet. Horrible. Hence why so many cross goals. Keepers aren't active enough to intercept. 

Wingers can't defend?

As always you need context. AMLs/AMRs will contribute less to defence than MLs/MRs, those with attack duties will contribute less than those with support/defend duties and finally its down to the player & his attributes.  The bottom line is a lot of wingers don't have good defensive attributes, find a one that does & you'll see he performs much better in defence.  Stick a DL/ML at ML & he'll generally defend better than a ML/AML (Depending on attributes of course) but on the flipside you'll probably lose something in attack.

Saying wingers can't defend is like saying you are annoyed that your DC doesn't get forward into the box & score goals.  Attack & defence are a balancing act, if you improve one it usually means a reduction in the other and wingers seem to be an easy target.

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55 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

Saying wingers can't defend is like saying you are annoyed that your DC doesn't get forward into the box & score goals.  Attack & defence are a balancing act, if you improve one it usually means a reduction in the other and wingers seem to be an easy target.

this is such a misconception that lives only through FM. Wingers, however attacking they are - must be able to get into position to defend when the defence is set up (counter atacks area bit different). only in FM there is such a thing that attacking wingers don't mind getting behind the ball. The whole idea of defending in football is to defend as a team, not as individuals.

I agree it is down to individual attributes how well an attacking winger is defending or how willing he is to get back, but apart very few exceptions, everybody IRL should get back in shape (nobody defends in 4-2-3-1) shape. Problem with the game is it doesn't represent defending well. Once you chose 4-2-3-1 you will defend in that shape and if you don't set wingers to mark they tend to stay too high and not track back enough. That simply doesn't happen in football as those wingers would be sold and replaced with those who are willing to get back more often.

 

Liverpool v United defensive shape.jpg

Firmino has kind of attacking role in Liverpool, here he is when they are on attack, tucking inside quite high up the pitch

 

SLIKA 2.jpg

however, when liverpool is defending he is back in shape, not anymore within 4-2-3-1 but in 4-1-4-1 minding full back Ivanovic. For quite some time the poorest part of FM is tactics. it is way too rigid compared to real world and doesn't allow for offensive and defensive shapes. 

And funny you mentioned center backs. They don't need to get into box to score, although they might do that in real. What FM lacks is having center backs going into the midfield creating overloads.

Chelsea v Liverpool flat 3 midfield.jpg

Azpilicueta was playing as center midfielder in a match against Man Utd, however, look at him above. he is in line with CM Kante and ahead of CM matic. He has an order to get into midfield and create 3v2 with Kante and Hazard. That is what "attacking" defender should be able to do. However, not a lot you can do with him in the game.

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1 minute ago, MBarbaric said:

I agree it is down to individual attributes how well an attacking winger is defending or how willing he is to get back, but apart very few exceptions, everybody IRL should get back in shape (nobody defends in 4-2-3-1) shape. Problem with the game is it doesn't represent defending well. Once you chose 4-2-3-1 you will defend in that shape and if you don't set wingers to mark they tend to stay too high and not track back enough. That simply doesn't happen in football as those wingers would be sold and replaced with those who are willing to get back more often.

The formation you choose is your defensive shape.  This has been said time & time again over the years.

If you don't want to defend in a 4231 shape you shouldn't be selecting it, this isn't rocket science its basic stuff.

Saying it doesn't happen IRL is because IRL a manager doesn't select/give instructions to his to use a 4231 defensive shape.  Sky and other TV companies are partly to blame for the way they show setups on screen but users have to learn that what they see as a 4231 when attacking should be selected as a more defensive shape.

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31 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

The formation you choose is your defensive shape.  This has been said time & time again over the years.

If you don't want to defend in a 4231 shape you shouldn't be selecting it, this isn't rocket science its basic stuff.

Saying it doesn't happen IRL is because IRL a manager doesn't select/give instructions to his to use a 4231 defensive shape.  Sky and other TV companies are partly to blame for the way they show setups on screen but users have to learn that what they see as a 4231 when attacking should be selected as a more defensive shape.

I completely understand that. However, check what positions Firmino has in FM. Or, Bale, or CR... Are they ML/R or AML/R? That is what I am talking about. FM lacks flexibiity that exists in real. Nobody defends in 4-2-3-1 when they are deep in their half. that is just nonsense to a point it almost shouldn't be an option. What FM should do to replicate real tactics is introduce defensive and attaking shapes. 

Liverpool v United defensive shape.jpg

You simply can't produce this in attack 

SLIKA 2.jpg

and this in defense with current tactics. In attack, look where is the ball. basically deep middle third. in game, you will never have Millner and Clyne so high above the ball as full backs and Firmino/Mane so narrow and high while having them in 4-1-4-1.

Edited by MBarbaric

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4 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

I completely understand that. However, check what positions Firmino has in FM. Or, Bale, or CR... Are they ML/R or AML/R?

Which would make it a potential database issue. There needs to be a difference between AML/R and ML/R in the ME.

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7 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

What FM should do to replicate real tactics is introduce defensive and attaking shapes.

You say you understand but then you ask for defensive & attacking shapes???

The way a team defends & attacking and the shape they resemble is dealt with through the various instructions you give.  FM already incorporates a lot of that and teams do attack in a different shape to what they defend in.

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In the pitch view during the match, is there a way we can customise widgets so not all the columns are shown? For instance, in the team ratings widget, it has a bunch of unnecessary columns which don't interest me such as squad number, who the captain is etc. I would love to be able to hide these columns to save valuable screen real estate.

I raised this in FM16 and was told it would be looked into in FM17. Many thanks!

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Just now, Coolcup said:

In the pitch view during the match, is there a way we can customise widgets so not all the columns are shown? For instance, in the team ratings widget, it has a bunch of unnecessary columns which don't interest me such as squad number, who the captain is etc. I would love to be able to hide these columns to save valuable screen real estate.

I raised this in FM16 and was told it would be looked into in FM17. Many thanks!

This is skin related thing, visit the skin hideout and read some guides or maybe ask for how to do it.

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18 hours ago, buddiemirren said:

Can someone confirm how passing % is calculated ie are throw ins and crosses counted as well as passes attempted(PA) and passes completed(PC)???  Is it GK, FB's & CD's for Defence?      In the examples shown        I get 244(PC)/285(PA)= 85.6%         , even factoring in every throw in and cross as a non completed pass gives 244/309= 78.96 and not the 75% given as passiing % for Defence in the game.        I could just be daft tho'   (I'm Liverpool BTW)                                                fmtest.png                                                          tactic.png                                                         fmtest2.png

No one interested in why a spreadsheet cant count properly?? % Passes (Attack + Midfield + Defence) / 3 = % Passes Completed. Maybe not game breaking but anyhoos...

 

 

 

 

fmbarca.pnglaliga.png

 

 

Thought they might have given up on that boring Tika Taka stuff in Spain( in my game) and went full long ball Conference style but not according to those sneaky statiticians over at whoscored

 

 

 

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@MBarbaric, thanks for your posts above.

The formation that you set is your basic structure and your foundation of the shape of the particular tactic. Then, as the user you can use the roles, team instructions and player instructions to create and express the tactic overall in both a defensive and attacking fashion. The player traits and player attributes will also dictate this to give the matches more expression overall.

The ME also needs to be balanced overall and throughout. Some of the screenshots that you have posted are more extreme and not the rule of every manager and tactic within the footballing world. We need to create a ME that is suitable to fit every team and nation that we support in game.

If you would like to raise some of your ideas in the feature forums as requests for future versions then you are more than welcome to do so. We have a ME Wishlist in the Match Forums too.

Cheers,

Nic

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3 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Wingers can't defend?

As always you need context. AMLs/AMRs will contribute less to defence than MLs/MRs, those with attack duties will contribute less than those with support/defend duties and finally its down to the player & his attributes.  The bottom line is a lot of wingers don't have good defensive attributes, find a one that does & you'll see he performs much better in defence.  Stick a DL/ML at ML & he'll generally defend better than a ML/AML (Depending on attributes of course) but on the flipside you'll probably lose something in attack.

Saying wingers can't defend is like saying you are annoyed that your DC doesn't get forward into the box & score goals.  Attack & defence are a balancing act, if you improve one it usually means a reduction in the other and wingers seem to be an easy target.

Its an issue for me mate. Wingers in this ME stand far too wide and dont like to sit narrower despite trying various instructions. It has been logged for review

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13 minutes ago, buddiemirren said:

No one interested in why a spreadsheet cant count properly?? % Passes (Attack + Midfield + Defence) / 3 = % Passes Completed. Maybe not game breaking but anyhoos...

The number of passes in the overall screen equal the number of passes made by individual members of your team 643/729 if you add them up.

I know this isn't what you are getting at and you are talking about the %.

Given that the totals are correct then its just down to which passes are included in which of the three categories when calculations are made.

You would need someone from SI to confirm but it might not be just down to the position the player is at but where on the pitch he is when the pass is made.  It could potentially just split the pitch into three zones and calulate the defence/midfield/attack % from whichever zone the pass was attempted from.  The other possibility is that players got moved around during the game either manually or via a swop position instruction perhaps.

Overall I don't think its a big issue given the final figures match its more so you understand what the % actually represent.

 

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The issue for me with the formation you select being the defensive setup, is that you have to pick a 4123 formation, otherwise your best players aren't familiar with the role.

Defensively, I want the team's shape to resemble 4141, but if I did that the likes of Coutinho, Firmino and Lallana aren't happy being in the wide midfield position.

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I'm really noticing an upward swing in the amount of goals scored per game.  I'm seeing a fair bit of 5-1, 6-3, 4-1 results in my current save.  I can definitely say that my save played In the same league (Ligue 1) in FM16, I was *not* seeing this much offence.  Without a doubt.

 

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2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

 

There needs to be a difference between AML/R and ML/R in the ME.

@Cougar2010

Indeed because ME doesn't understand sufficiently the difference between offensive and defansive phase of the game. Firmino and CR are rightfuly AM/L in the database because that is largely the spot they occupy when their team is on the ball. No one can argue CR has wrong positon set in the game. he is a AML- Problem arises when you have player's positions set in database according to their on the ball positions, while you have overall formation set to off the ball shape.

the real problem is that, how game represents tactics isn't how football works. There is no team in the world who defends in 4-2-3-1. Therefore CR has no business staying upfield while his team is off the ball ( if you don't give him specific instruction to do so, at least). as @martplfc1 rightly notices, you'd have half of database playing out of position if you'd follow game logic and put out 4-4-2 formation tweaking the players to transition to 4-2-3-1 when on the ball. just this is enough, I think, to understand there is discrepancy with  "If you don't want to defend in 4-2-3-1 shape then select 4-4-2" mantra. We all know these wide attacking players go back and fill the ML/R slot when the team is off the ball.

to evolve, the game needs to distinguish between on the ball/negative transition/off the ball/positive transition/on the ball cycle. It simply needs two sets of instructions for two most important phases of the game (on/off the ball). screenshots above demonstrate how different liverpool plays on and off the ball. Heck, Clyne and Milner would need to be in the ML/R winger role to occupy the position in the game they do in real. Even if you'd be able to do that they still don't cross in real since their role being so far ahead of the ball and wide isn't to cross the ball but to stretch the opposition. 

@Nic Madden

I understand SI needs to limit itself to what is possible currently. However, it just isn't really good at representing tactics above the very basic level. It really needs to evolve from whole overall formation concept as that really doesn't exist in football. there are two shapes (attacking and defensive) and that is bare minimum, Yet, you can't have it properly in the game as formation, aka defensive shape, in the game is neglecting that players in database are shoehorned to their attacking shape. And I really don't agree liverpool is an extreme example. It is one of the teams thousands of FM players are trying to emulate at the moment. to be honest, it just sounds like "we can't do it at the moment so it is what it is. We'd like to change it, though".

Hope you do as at the moment FM has gone far forward on lot of manager aspects but has been slugging behind as far as tactics are concerned. way behind the rest of the game while it should really be the most important part of manager's job.

Edited by MBarbaric

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1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

The number of passes in the overall screen equal the number of passes made by individual members of your team 643/729 if you add them up.

I know this isn't what you are getting at and you are talking about the %.

Given that the totals are correct then its just down to which passes are included in which of the three categories when calculations are made.

You would need someone from SI to confirm but it might not be just down to the position the player is at but where on the pitch he is when the pass is made.  It could potentially just split the pitch into three zones and calulate the defence/midfield/attack % from whichever zone the pass was attempted from.  The other possibility is that players got moved around during the game either manually or via a swop position instruction perhaps.

Overall I don't think its a big issue given the final figures match its more so you understand what the % actually represent.

 

Cheers for answering Cougar, I think your answer about player position on the field must be it but I just dont know but I kinda' want to know. I have the same weird fixation every year with trying to produce the ultimate possession tactic and knowing how its calculated would help I think.

hull.pnghull2.pnghull3.png

 

Using the above game as an example;

I have the 4 defenders + sub as 314 passing attempts(PA) and 288 passes completed(PC) = 91.7% the game says passes defence = 89%,

I have the 3 midfielders as 454 PA and 434 PC = 95.6% the games says passes midfield =95% and

i have the 3 attackers + 2 subs as 96PA and 92 PC =95.7% the game gives passes attack = 94%

giving overall possesions of 95.6 and 94.6 comaped to 94% which is obviously a results of rounding up or down.

I'd say it was pretty clear from those that my defenders are making less completions the further up the pitch they go. Which on reflection makes sense and reinforces your idea that the pitch is split into 3 zones for the calculation I didnt know that before, so cheers once again.

 

 

***  Actually got that back to front, they make more completed passes the further up the pitch they go which seems a bit counter intuitive

Edited by buddiemirren
update

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Free kicks seem to be appalling. Haven't said anything before now as my players had really low ratings with Newport, but now im with Everton and have been their manager for 14 games and don't think i have seen a free kick even hit the target from any players (including Baines with a 17 rating) from both my and opposition teams. I almost celebrate when a free kick hits the wall rather than flies over the bar which is whast generally happens

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4 minutes ago, buddiemirren said:

Using the above game as an example;

I have the 4 defenders + sub as 314 passing attempts(PA) and 288 passes completed(PC) = 91.7% the game says passes defence = 89%,

I have the 3 midfielders as 454 PA and 434 PC = 95.6% the games says passes midfield =95% and

i have the 3 attackers + 2 subs as 96PA and 92 PC =95.7% the game gives passes attack = 94%

giving overall possesions of 95.6 and 94.6 comaped to 94% which is obviously a results of rounding up or down.

I'd say it was pretty clear from those that my defenders are making less completions the further up the pitch they go. Which on reflection makes sense and reinforces your idea that the pitch is split into 3 zones for the calculation I didnt know that before, so cheers once again.

 

Its only an educated guess on my part.

What you could do if you want to drill further is use the analysis section which then lists every pass/shot etc from every player to try and see if you can narrow it down further.

An easier way though would be if one of the SI guys would clarify what the % represent.

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3 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

the real problem is that, how game represents tactics isn't how football works.

I wouldn't be too quick to say that. I've seen players on the wing stay forward. I will say that when I have seen it, it's also a case of only 1 winger doing it, so the other would be on a Support duty in FM terms.

The option should be there. It's a risk vs reward choice. Risking letting a fullback go, possibly because you don't think he's enough of a threat vs the winger's ability to be in a position to instantly counter.

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5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I wouldn't be too quick to say that. I've seen players on the wing stay forward. I will say that when I have seen it, it's also a case of only 1 winger doing it, so the other would be on a Support duty in FM terms.

The option should be there. It's a risk vs reward choice. Risking letting a fullback go, possibly because you don't think he's enough of a threat vs the winger's ability to be in a position to instantly counter.

Would it not be more transparent if you could tell a player to retreat to wide right, for example, when the team doesn't have the ball, without this affecting his suitability for the position?

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11 minutes ago, RobertPage said:

Everton and have been their manager for 14 games and don't think i have seen a free kick even hit the target

Limited evidence, I'm afraid. I've played two seasons with Man Utd and Depay, Mata and Pogba have regularly scored from DFKs. Off the top of my head I can recall conceding from Cazorla against Arsenal, and Eriksen against Spurs. Even during an abortive season with Darlington we scored a couple.

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25 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I wouldn't be too quick to say that. I've seen players on the wing stay forward. I will say that when I have seen it, it's also a case of only 1 winger doing it, so the other would be on a Support duty in FM terms.

The option should be there. It's a risk vs reward choice. Risking letting a fullback go, possibly because you don't think he's enough of a threat vs the winger's ability to be in a position to instantly counter.

You have seen it with barcelona i.e. with Suarez/Messi on occasion. but then you will have Rakitic covering for Messi and Suarez dropping deep to cover in midfield like in the screenshot below.

Sevilla creating overload v barcelona.jpg

 

However, teams have instrucrions when they are off the ball as much as they have them on the ball. They have pressing triggers, Barcelona has it in attacking third and if that doesn't work they get back in shape. Messi was playing CF/CAM here exchangeing place with Suarez who was CF/AMR. If Messi doesn't get into shape due to his threat on counter, Suarez will drop in middle and Rakitic will cover Messi/ suarez flank.

That being said, in top football you rarely see more than one player having no responsibilities in defensive phase of the game. and even that is really more of an examption than a rule. Especially when team discipline is high or result is tight. Once game goes its way, it can often get into chaos but very rarely on top levels.

Edited by MBarbaric

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11 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

I wouldn't be too quick to say that. I've seen players on the wing stay forward. I will say that when I have seen it, it's also a case of only 1 winger doing it, so the other would be on a Support duty in FM terms.

The option should be there. It's a risk vs reward choice. Risking letting a fullback go, possibly because you don't think he's enough of a threat vs the winger's ability to be in a position to instantly counter.

This. 

What I would argue is that more players should have better ratings for the ML/MR slots, akin to the German research last year (havent looked through Germany  for this season)

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The issue naturally is that wide midfielders in general oft sit out wide for the heck of it this season on both flanks, no matter on which flank the ball carrier/attack goes through, even against narrow formations, full backs not even pushing up, wide players already taken care of by the backs and the midfield centre getting flooded up to the point that there is 3, 4 players not even challenged, and the thing eventually overloaded to the extent that the cbs have to close down.

The AML/AMR tracking back thing has been old-hat compared to that, and it was much more difficult in previous releases imo (on some older releases you barely got them at all tracking back, but basically sitting on the half way line, i.e. FM 2013ish).

Edited by Svenc

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3 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

This. 

What I would argue is that more players should have better ratings for the ML/MR slots, akin to the German research last year (havent looked through Germany  for this season)

Why? why would Firmino need a ML rating if that is not the position he plays? Or CR, or Bale? Problem isn't with positions in database, the problem lies in ME. Players in AML/R should be able to go to ML/R slot when off the ball and opposition is in middle third automatically. you should have the possibility to change that if you'd wish so but then you'd get what we have in the game currently. inacurrate defensive shape which might be ok when you are more concerned about scoring than conceding.

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7 minutes ago, Svenc said:

The issue naturally is that wide midfielders in general sit out wide for the heck of it this season, even against narrow formations, full backs not even pushing up, wide players already taken care of by the backs and the midfield centre getting flooded up to the point that there is 3, 4 players not even challenged, and the thing eventually overloaded to the extent that the cbs have to close down.

The AML/AMR tracking back thing has been old-hat compared to that, and it was much more difficult in previous releases imo (on some older releases you barely got them at all tracking back, but basically sitting on the half way line, i.e. FM 2013ish).

indeed, whole defensive shape is wrong in the game. the principle of defending in football is to defend as a team, having a short and narrow formation off the ball and focusing on ball side. why? because if you cut off the immediate passing lanes, even if you don't have time to press the ball carrier he still won't be able to accurately find a teammate taht is 60 yards away. Even if he does, you will have time to get back in shape by the time the opponents gets and controlls the ball.

A highly encourage people to look at how defending works in football in this linka and compare it to how it works in game. it has nothing to do with positions or roles in attack it is two completey separate things. 

 

Edited by MBarbaric

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MrBarbaric, this is only a game. Comparing videos of real live soccer games with FM is pointless. You could (and i often do) even play with only text and  without graphics at all in FM.

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17 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Why? why would Firmino need a ML rating if that is not the position he plays? Or CR, or Bale? Problem isn't with positions in database, the problem lies in ME. Players in AML/R should be able to go to ML/R slot when off the ball and opposition is in middle third automatically. you should have the possibility to change that if you'd wish so but then you'd get what we have in the game currently. inacurrate defensive shape which might be ok when you are more concerned about scoring than conceding.

Because the lines for many players are actually blurred for ML and MR/AML and AMR for many players. Firmino is actually a very good example of that. 

They shouldn't go drop back to the ML or MR slot, because not every player does go there actively.

Chasing back is not the same thing as falling back into a defensive shape.

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15 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

indeed, whole defensive shape is wrong in the game. the principle of defending in football is to defend as a team, having a short and narrow formation off the ball and focusing on ball side. why? because if you cut off the immediate passing lanes, even if you don't have time to press the ball carrier he still won't be able to accurately find a teammate taht is 60 yards away. Even if he does, you will have time to get back in shape by the time the opponents gets and controlls the ball.

A highly encourage people to look at how defending works in football in this linka and compare it to how it works in game. it has nothing to do with positions or roles in attack it is two completey separate things. 

 

Again this isn't always true. There is no universal school of defending, even at fundamental levels. Because defending with varying line height, width and pressing levels, let alone shape, require different things

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So I have a game that ends one all, I get five CCCs, all for the same player, all genuine chances. He fluffs four, including hitting the post from two yards out, and scores one that even Diana Ross could have scored. Somehow he gets 8.3 and man of the match. No. He cost us the game, should have had at least a hat-trick. I really think match ratings are going backwards over the years, no idea of context whatsoever. "What, he scored a goal? Automatic 8 at least."

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I get a notification every week telling me one of my players it set to become the all time record appearance maker at the club. Problem is, he's 9 games off it, and the player who is 9 games in front is one of his team mates in my current first XI !! 

Talking of notifications, despite a good number of players impressing in training, I only ever get a report back telling me how well my captain is progressing, no other player in my squad gets this. And I get this news item every couple of weeks at least. 

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11 minutes ago, johnhughthom said:

So I have a game that ends one all, I get five CCCs, all for the same player, all genuine chances. He fluffs four, including hitting the post from two yards out, and scores one that even Diana Ross could have scored. Somehow he gets 8.3 and man of the match. No. He cost us the game, should have had at least a hat-trick. I really think match ratings are going backwards over the years, no idea of context whatsoever. "What, he scored a goal? Automatic 8 at least."

I would raise that game John. I agree, that missing 4 golden chances should impact ratings somewhat. That said he sounds exactly like Edison Cavani.

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21 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Because the lines for many players are actually blurred for ML and MR/AML and AMR for many players. Firmino is actually a very good example of that. 

They shouldn't go drop back to the ML or MR slot, because not every player does go there actively.

Chasing back is not the same thing as falling back into a defensive shape.

Beg to differ. the problem with the game is that it is missing what happens in real. there are two distinguished phases of game and players have different roles and positions during these two phasess. In attack Firmino is IF/CAM/CF while during defensive phase he isn't ML. He is simply dropping back to allow his team to defend in more efficient way. There is chasing back when you are being countered, but when the team is settled in defence there is no chasing back. it is two banks of four, five at the back and four in midfield... whatever, the basic idea is to get as many players behind the ball until it is recovered.

 

18 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Again this isn't always true. There is no universal school of defending, even at fundamental levels. Because defending with varying line height, width and pressing levels, let alone shape, require different things

you are talking about different phases of defending. I'll give you that it is varying. during a match a team will defend in attacking, middle and defensive third. high up the pitch they might be more aggressive with pressing forcing the opposition into long clearance, towards the middle/flank as a preparation for pressing trap a bit deeper in middle third. Then there is defending in middle third which can be more or less aggressive and defending in deep block. From middle third back to defensive third it will be less and less aggressive and more and more organized.  it will essentially be two banks of players. at this stage 90% of teams will play fundamentaly the same even within differnet shapes. short in depth and narrow in width.

24 minutes ago, gerry58 said:

MrBarbaric, this is only a game. Comparing videos of real live soccer games with FM is pointless. You could (and i often do) even play with only text and  without graphics at all in FM.

ah absolutely, but since it is a simulation I'd just like to have a game better simulating real tactics :D 

Edited by MBarbaric

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3 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

Beg to differ. the problem with the game is that it is missing what happens in real. there are two distinguished phases of game and players have different roles and positions during these two phasess. In attack Firmino is IF/CAM/CF while during defensive phase he isn't ML. He is simply dropping back to allow his team to defend in more efficient way. There is chasing back when you are being countered, but when the team is settled in defence there is no chasing back. it is two banks of four, five at the back and four in midfield... whatever, the basic idea is to get as many players behind the ball until it is recovered.

 

you are talking about different phases of defending. I'll give you that it is varying. during a match a team will defend in attacking, middle and defensive third. high up the pitch they might be more aggressive with pressing forcing the opposition into long clearance, towards the middle/flank as a preparation for pressing trap a bit deeper in middle third. Then there is defending in middle third which can be more or less aggressive and defending in deep block. From middle third back to defensive third it will be less and less aggressive and more and more organized.  it will essentially be two banks of players. at this stage 90% of teams will play fundamentaly the same even within differnet shapes. short in depth and narrow in width.

ah absolutely, I'd just like to have a better game :D 

If we are talking phases there's actually 4, because there are transition phases, you can't occupy two positions in a match, unless youre N'Golo Kante, but defensively, not every team instantly decides to drop shape. Not every team is even two banks. Not every wide player is even instructed to fall back. That's even before we talk about context.

Not every team recovers the ball in the same way, in the same areas of the pitch.

Defending is not fundamentally the same. Veering off topic slightly now. Expanding the defensive side of the game is one thing, arguing that defending is fundamentally the same is questionable.

Anything else on this is probably more suited to a features thread

 

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5 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

If we are talking phases there's actually 4, because there are transition phases, you can't occupy two positions in a match, unless youre N'Golo Kante, but defensively, not every team instantly decides to drop shape. Not every team is even two banks. Not every wide player is even instructed to fall back. That's even before we talk about context.

Not every team recovers the ball in the same way, in the same areas of the pitch.

Defending is not fundamentally the same. Veering off topic slightly now. Expanding the defensive side of the game is one thing, arguing that defending is fundamentally the same is questionable.

Anything else on this is probably more suited to a features thread

 

there are differences in a way how team defends depending on which part of the pitch the ball is. covered that already. However, there are defending principles that all teams worth their salt adhere to. going back to "no player can play two positions" argument is rather poor argument. they do play different positions in different phases of the game. look at liverpool screenshots above. saying this isn't for feedback is also kind of disappointing. 

How it isn't a feedback? it tells you precisely what is wrong with the tactical side of the game atm. you are always asking for argumented feedback and once it is given, supported with real life examples, then it is pushed as off topic... 

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6 minutes ago, MBarbaric said:

there are differences in a way how team defends depending on which part of the pitch the ball is. covered that already. However, there are defending principles that all teams worth their salt adhere to. going back to "no player can play two positions" argument is rather poor argument. they do play different positions in different phases of the game. look at liverpool screenshots above. saying this isn't for feedback is also kind of disappointing. 

How it isn't a feedback? it tells you precisely what is wrong with the tactical side of the game atm. you are always asking for argumented feedback and once it is given, supported with real life examples, then it is pushed as off topic... 

Which principles? Because fundamentally they differ, as they alter your shape triggers and movement. They very principles differ. As said, there is no one school of thought.

It's not being pushed off.

You dont play two positions, movement is shaped by attack, defensive, and transitions, it's not static, it's why a pass map will often look very different to whatever shape they have been described as.

I didnt say it wasn't for feedback, I said it's better suited as a feature request, as you're essentially asking for the defensive side of the game to be enhanced, which would almost certainly involved new instructions and interfaces, as opposed to it being a defensive flaw.

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If the formation screen displays the defensive set up, how do we know what our attacking set up is, other than trying to interpret the PIs and role descriptions?

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54 minutes ago, Dagenham_Dave said:

I get a notification every week telling me one of my players it set to become the all time record appearance maker at the club. Problem is, he's 9 games off it, and the player who is 9 games in front is one of his team mates in my current first XI !! 

Talking of notifications, despite a good number of players impressing in training, I only ever get a report back telling me how well my captain is progressing, no other player in my squad gets this. And I get this news item every couple of weeks at least. 

That would be a very useful example to have a save for - any chance you can raise it here? - https://community.sigames.com/forum/518-other-gameplay-issues/

Thanks. 

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Ok.  Going to try this again.  

I'm really noticing an upward swing in the amount of goals scored per game.  I'm seeing a fair bit of 5-1, 6-3, 4-1 results in my current save.  I can definitely say that my save played In the same league (Ligue 1) in FM16, I was *not* seeing this much offence.  Without a doubt.

 

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@MBarbaric agree with all those tactic suggestions... try the feature request thread. Several threads already elude to it  so I haven't created a new one. Perhaps you should as your videos and graphical explanation is very clear. I'd love to have on/off the ball formation. Every thread in the tactics ends up with people saying "use WM and tweak the TI/PIs..." but as rightly suggested nearly all the best players have natural position as AML/AMR/AMC yet if we use these positions in our tactics we cannot defend.

tweaking the DB to make Sanchez, Hazard, Ronaldo, Bale, Firminho etc a natural ML/MR is just a 'workaround' not a solution as in real life they are clearly AML/AMR.

This is an odd forum as naturally any feedback could also be classified as request/bugs.

Feedback:

1) I think the FM17 ME is far better than FM16 - and not even in Jan update yet. However, every match several times GKs tip mishit crosses out for corners. I raised this as bug and is marked as under review :)

2) I hate the social feed - would like it removed. We want genuine upgrades between versions that impact on managerial decisions and tangible gameplay. Putting in an uninteractive, monotonous, senseless, repetitive fictional feed and telling us it's a wonderful addition is annoying. same goes with the press conferences which are still the same formula since the first day I saw them.

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2 hours ago, RobertPage said:

Free kicks seem to be appalling.

On this note, was anything tweaked on FKs from the Beta to full release?

My test Beta file seemed to have more variety in terms of FKs (placing, on target success and goals), whilst the current game seems to have regressed back towards FM15 with quite a linear outcome. My viewpoint could just be an anomaly of an initial small sample number of games, but I'd be  curious to take opinions on this.

Edited by AndySummers

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9 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Which principles? Because fundamentally they differ, as they alter your shape triggers and movement. They very principles differ. As said, there is no one school of thought.

It's not being pushed off.

You dont play two positions, movement is shaped by attack, defensive, and transitions, it's not static, it's why a pass map will often look very different to whatever shape they have been described as.

I didnt say it wasn't for feedback, I said it's better suited as a feature request, as you're essentially asking for the defensive side of the game to be enhanced, which would almost certainly involved new instructions and interfaces, as opposed to it being a defensive flaw.

i've alredy said it but maybe i wasn't clear enough. 90% of teams, from 90's onward, defend in their own half the same way. short and narrow. that is fundamental principle of defending in football. some teams will be more inclined to press high up field. They might want to force the opposition into long clearances, they might want to force the play down either flank or center of the pitch as they get pressing trap there, or they might target particular player in opposition defensive line for pressing. whatever it is, once this pressing doesn't work, they will fall back into defensive shape (banks of four i.e.)   90% of time trying to be narrow and short. i'd like to see other schools of thought that are more often used than this. 

you are saying "movement is shaped by attack, defence, transition, it is not static", yet you say you don't play two positions? Indeed movement in attack is very fluid, often left for player's creativity. Guardiola says "my job is to get you to the final third and there you do your magic". However, defending is everything opposite. It has no room for creativity and very little for fluidity within formation. The principle (another), is: if one player gets "fluid" goes for press thus leaves the line, the rest of the line shrinks behind him to narrow the gap the above said player has left. 

pass map is usefull tool to recognize attacking or simply on the ball movement, it has nothing to do with defensive shape of the team. Even position map won't tell you much if you don't look the match in its different phases. 

sorry for misinterpreting the topic being pushed off.

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14 minutes ago, martplfc1 said:

If the formation screen displays the defensive set up, how do we know what our attacking set up is, other than trying to interpret the PIs and role descriptions?

This is why I've argued for the game to attempt to show an approximation of intended player movement. 

The game needs more visual cues, but that's for another thread and another version.

 

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