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11 hours ago, thomas_e said:

@looping:  "Not watching games (key highlights). Not paying much attention" - why wouldn't you pay attention? 

 

Because if I pay attention to matches I start changing things and making it even worse...

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1 hour ago, looping said:

Same for me.

And when I read a post I don't have the match going on so I can't figure out...

I would like to be clear this is not about your voice or your words, it's about me not understanding english.

 

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58 minutes ago, Arel said:

I deeply, deeply love the 442 standard.

442 standard grew up with me, for more than a decade. Of course i used 433 and 4231 in other ocasions, depending on the team i had in hands, but my baby was always the  442. In the modern days and real life the 442 evolved.

So play 442! Seriously, take a look at my Leeds career in the Career Updates forum. I only use 442 and am currently in my 4th season as manager, we are 4th in the Premiership and have just won 12 games on the bounce.

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21 hours ago, Rashidi said:

This is slowly becoming a whinging thread. It's about how one person's point of view is not reflected into the game. It's about how one person sees the world of football and believes that is the God given truth, which is probably an opinion not widely shared.  Keep those views to yourself and stop whining.

If its tactical advice you guys want, there will be that on the forums. If you expect the game to bend over to your version of reality I will close this thread. I am trying my best to be civil, but the reality is that tactics play a huge part in real life. 

I didn't see this before.  This is totally unacceptable and out of place. Nobody is complaining. Nobody is expecting anything to bend over to anything. Do you pay any attention to what other people writes? Did you read this?

On 15/11/2016 at 20:58, looping said:

Yes, for sure. But it's been one year for me. I didn't play a real save with fm16 (sacked or nearby) and it seems the same with fm17.

I think my problem is that I completely disagree with the vision inserted in fm. I think football is much more simple than that. The manager's influence is overpowered IMO. Tactics are a very little part of what happens on the pitch (IMO weather conditions and luck are more important, for instance). But that's what we have: adapt or give up.

Did you read this? Really? Or you are only paying attention to your own words which for sure are inspired by a superior force?

Close the thread if you want. Even better, ban me for life. Do whatever you want, but keep in mind this thread is helping me and other users, this help has inspired other threads and contributions. We were having fun here and learning slowly, but happily, before you come here with your insolence. What's inside your mind that forces you to belittle and humiliate others? 

You are a fm genius but you still have a lot to learn about empathy.

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Not that Rashidi needs anyone to defend him, but I think now you are exagerating.. Rashidi even came to your thread and gave good contributions to you and us to understand better the game. They have to cope with frustration every day, and what I understand from his post is that if we have negative attitude towards this, is not good for us, isn't going to help at all, and to others who read this threads isn't good either.

Edited by shadster

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22 hours ago, Rashidi said:

It's about how one person sees the world of football and believes that is the God given truth,

 

11 minutes ago, shadster said:

Not that Rashidi needs anyone to defend him, but I think now you are exagerating.. Rashidi even came to your thread and gave good contributions to you and us to understand better the game. They have to cope with frustration every day, and what I understand from his post is that if we have negative attitude towards this, is not good for us, isn't going to help at all, and to others who read this threads isn't good either.

Ok. It's me then.

The best will be to ask politely Rashidi not to post in my threads, and that's it because anything he says sounds like an insult to me. This will be the best. There are other people helping and I feel better with them.

I'm writing a big post now. Hope it brings this to something constructive.

Edited by looping

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4 hours ago, facman said:

So play 442! Seriously, take a look at my Leeds career in the Career Updates forum. I only use 442 and am currently in my 4th season as manager, we are 4th in the Premiership and have just won 12 games on the bounce.

Teach me master! Ahahah
Could you provide a link to your topic please? :)

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7 hours ago, Arel said:

Teach me master! Ahahah
Could you provide a link to your topic please? :)

Here is a link to my Career thread:

https://community.sigames.com/topic/380261-fm16-leeds-a-lancastrians-adventures-in-yorkshire/

In the first couple of seasons you'll see screenshots of 'Tinkerer outwits opponents' as I used a variety of styles and formations to get promotion and stay in the Premiership. But gradually that disappears as I settle on 4-4-2, and in the 4th season I basically haven't played anything other than 4-4-2. I've just looked at my analysis screen and in the last 50 games I have used 442 for 4353 minutes, and other formations for a total of 244 minutes!

As for how I developed it:

The first link is to Cleon's 442 thread, and was the first thing I read. This gave me a good grounding about what it was I was actually looking at when I was watching a good team play 442, and what the strengths and weaknesses are

https://community.sigames.com/topic/328398-building-a-tactic-from-the-beginning-and-maintaining-it-long-term/

The second link is to the excellent Lines and Diamonds handbook, which essentially explains the tactical creator, so that you know what you are doing when you tick that shout (this was a revelation, and I am still picking through it now and again to add to my understanding)

http://sisportscentre.com/category/lines-and-diamonds-the-tacticians-handbook-for-football-manager-2015/

The third link is from WWFan, a legend in my eyes as I remember back to the heady days of 'Tactical Theorems and Frameworks' almost a decade ago! :) Anyway, this link is a short but very useful guide to a whole host of things, not least of which is a working guide to use of specialist vs generalist roles as you move from structured to fluid. Excellent read!

https://community.sigames.com/topic/295001-how-to-play-fm-a-twelve-step-guide/

Llama3's Pairs and combinations is another great guide to developing working combinations on the pitch. Very useful indeed!

https://community.sigames.com/topic/303241-pairs-amp-combinations-fm2015-updated/

And the final link is herne79's thread about developing a 442, which I read and contributed to at the very end (if you want a tactical breakdown of my main 442 tactic it is in the penultimate post in this thread. Reading this gave me the final tools to look at my own tactical screen and make decisions based on what players I had, and how they would best fit together on the pitch

https://community.sigames.com/topic/364527-developing-my-4-4-2/

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19 hours ago, looping said:

 

Ok. It's me then.

The best will be to ask politely Rashidi not to post in my threads, and that's it because anything he says sounds like an insult to me. This will be the best. There are other people helping and I feel better with them.

I'm writing a big post now. Hope it brings this to something constructive.

I hope you realise that probably isn't helpful. Rashidi, amongst others are highly respected within this community and for good reason. Any help received should be welcomed.

I don't think Rashidi is being insulting to you any way. I think potentially a lot of this is lost in translation to be honest. Your frustration is evident and your opinion on tactics and the level of its influence on football in real life is not a widely supported by the community. So when you say that, you can understand why some people who know tactics in FM and see tactics at play in every second of a full 90 min match, you'll see slight conflict. 

We'll all continue to help, but please don't limit the people who can

 

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I'm in exactly the same boat as @looping.  Just been fired from my job at Notts County.  I won a few games, lost more than I should but just couldn't get a rythym going.  Partly tactical but partly down to bad strategy in the market.  Bought too many ageing players on big contracts.  I am exactly the same, love 4-4-2 and desperately want it to work.  Tried all sorts of mentalities, shapes, roles.  None consistently work and by work I mean "feel right" rather than just "win win win".  The balance of the side has never felt right - either too attacking or far too defensive.  I have never managed to get the balance between defence and attack right.

I have to say there is some great advice on this thread from @Rashidi and @loversleaper, the latter especially interesting with some shifts of mentality at the right time with his Watford save.  Very interesting.

I've come to the conclusion that i've been massively over complicating things for the last 3 editions of this game.  Back to the drawing board.

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1 hour ago, NoTekkersRB said:

So when you say that, you can understand why some people who know tactics in FM and see tactics at play in every second of a full 90 min match, you'll see slight conflict. 

 

I don't understand this sentence. Could you please use other words?

 

4 minutes ago, RorysRocketThrow said:

I'm in exactly the same boat as @looping.  Just been fired from my job at Notts County.  I won a few games, lost more than I should but just couldn't get a rythym going.  Partly tactical but partly down to bad strategy in the market.  Bought too many ageing players on big contracts.  I am exactly the same, love 4-4-2 and desperately want it to work.  Tried all sorts of mentalities, shapes, roles.  None consistently work and by work I mean "feel right" rather than just "win win win".  The balance of the side has never felt right - either too attacking or far too defensive.  I have never managed to get the balance between defence and attack right.

I have to say there is some great advice on this thread from @Rashidi and @loversleaper, the latter especially interesting with some shifts of mentality at the right time with his Watford save.  Very interesting.

I've come to the conclusion that i've been massively over complicating things for the last 3 editions of this game.  Back to the drawing board.

This and this. Let's try again!

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27 minutes ago, RorysRocketThrow said:

I'm in exactly the same boat as @looping.  Just been fired from my job at Notts County.  I won a few games, lost more than I should but just couldn't get a rythym going.  Partly tactical but partly down to bad strategy in the market.  Bought too many ageing players on big contracts.  I am exactly the same, love 4-4-2 and desperately want it to work.  Tried all sorts of mentalities, shapes, roles.  None consistently work and by work I mean "feel right" rather than just "win win win".  The balance of the side has never felt right - either too attacking or far too defensive.  I have never managed to get the balance between defence and attack right.

I have to say there is some great advice on this thread from @Rashidi and @loversleaper, the latter especially interesting with some shifts of mentality at the right time with his Watford save.  Very interesting.

I've come to the conclusion that i've been massively over complicating things for the last 3 editions of this game.  Back to the drawing board.

could u give some practice example?

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39 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

could u give some practice example?

How long have you got and how far back do you want to go?  In terms of FM failure, i'm probably up there with the best.  :D  Current system, which is as up and down as all of the others i've "put together" is:

GK(D)

FB(S)  CD(D)  CD(D)  FB(S)

WP(A)  CM(S)  DLP(D)  WM(S)

AF(A)  TM(S)

Flexible / Standard (generally change this depending on opposition.  If opposition are playing a 4-2-3-1 I generally add exploit both flanks to try and exploit the gap between wide men and full backs.

Main problem is conceding roughly one or two per game and struggling to create.  I'm in League Two with Doncaster, so have decided to go with a target man to get the ball up front.  The target man is generally holding the ball up well and linking up with the left winger and deep lying playmaker.  Moves just generally break down from there.  Midfield in the middle seems too static.  I've tried changing the CM(S) to a BBM or AP(S) but it leaves me way too open with the WP(A).  I've also tried changing that to a WM(S) and WP(S) but seem to lose my attacking purpose down that flank (even with adding an attack duty to the full back).  I've tried leaving the midfield as-is and changing the mentality up a notch to control, to try and get a bit more from the CM(S).  Nothing.

Overall I don't feel the system is that bad, and it doesn't play like it's that bad either.  It just isn't that good either!  :D

Edited by RorysRocketThrow

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1 hour ago, looping said:

I don't understand this sentence. Could you please use other words?

 

Read my sentence before.

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45 minutes ago, RorysRocketThrow said:

How long have you got and how far back do you want to go?  In terms of FM failure, i'm probably up there with the best.  :D  Current system, which is as up and down as all of the others i've "put together" is:

GK(D)

FB(S)  CD(D)  CD(D)  FB(S)

WP(A)  CM(S)  DLP(D)  WM(S)

AF(A)  TM(S)

Flexible / Standard (generally change this depending on opposition.  If opposition are playing a 4-2-3-1 I generally add exploit both flanks to try and exploit the gap between wide men and full backs.

Main problem is conceding roughly one or two per game and struggling to create.  I'm in League Two with Doncaster, so have decided to go with a target man to get the ball up front.  The target man is generally holding the ball up well and linking up with the left winger and deep lying playmaker.  Moves just generally break down from there.  Midfield in the middle seems too static.  I've tried changing the CM(S) to a BBM or AP(S) but it leaves me way too open with the WP(A).  I've also tried changing that to a WM(S) and WP(S) but seem to lose my attacking purpose down that flank (even with adding an attack duty to the full back).  I've tried leaving the midfield as-is and changing the mentality up a notch to control, to try and get a bit more from the CM(S).  Nothing.

Overall I don't feel the system is that bad, and it doesn't play like it's that bad either.  It just isn't that good either!  :D

Of course, I'm not an expert, but this can be a good exercise....

- Your WP(a) is getting in the way of your cm-s

- You have 2 playmakers and 1 tm. 3 players attracting the ball.

- You have nobody providing width

 

I would:

- Change wp-a to wm-s and tell him to cut inside (even sit narrower)

- Give attack duty to your right fb

- Swap positions cm-su dlp-de so dlp covers your attacking fullback

-Give attack duty to your left wm, or even better, winger-at role duty.

 

What do you think?

 

 

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I posted this in a different thread at the request of @Shameless1, and I think it might have relevance here (especially section 3 - I never, ever hear people talking about the PPMs their players have, and yet PPMs will totally change a system between the drawing board and the pitch!):

Hi @Shameless1,

the first thing I would say is just some general advice that I have found has helped me in the last few months (which is when I finally decided to knuckle down and understand football from a tactical perspective - I was at the England match earlier this week and found myself thinking about what role and duty Koke had when he came on! ;) ).

1) Don't think in terms of Home and Away tactics. This always used to be the case many years ago, but the ME is much more dynamic and sophisticated now, so tactical thinking has to change.

2) Pick a basic formation that fits the majority of your players, but don't get too bothered about them being naturals in the positions you choose. For example, I play 4-4-2. I have a number of players who are natural AMR/L, but only accomplished at MR/L, but I would still rather play with MR/L because it fits the system I have developed.

3) Look at the PPMs of your players! PPMs will affect your tactics in a massive way, and can be both positive and negative. I noted that you spent a long time putting together a lovely table in the OP detailing your squad, and didn't list a single PPM (It was the first thing I looked for). I have Lewis Cook in my Leeds team playing as a BBM(S). Why? Well the BBM has the PI 'Roam from position', and Lewis Cook has the PPMs 'Runs with ball through centre' and 'Comes deep to get ball'. His PPMs support and reinforce the PI of his role. Originally, my tactic called for him to play as a CM(D) (a necessary role as in my first 2 seasons I was very much the underdog and needed a lot of midfield stability rather than creativity), which has the PI 'Hold Position'. This PI goes against Lewis Cook's natural instincts on the field of play, and resulted in a less effective player. As soon as I swapped his role to that of a BBM(S), he blossomed and he has averaged 7.57 in 33 appearances so far this season, with 3 goals, 9 assists and 7 Player of the Match awards. In my first 3 seasons, before I made the swap from CM(D) to BBM(S) he averaged 7.2, which was still good, but look at how much more effective he has become on the pitch. PPMs can help you or hinder you, so it pays to be aware of them at all times.

4) So long as that formation and roles and duties are fairly balanced, it should work reasonably on the field without too many TIs or PIs.

5) Read WWFan's https://community.sigames.com/topic/295001-how-to-play-fm-a-twelve-step-guide/ focusing especially on section 1. Limit yourself to the number of specialist roles it suggests. This will reduce the tendency to overcomplicate tactics.

6) Keep things simple. Reducing the number of TIs, PIs and specialist roles makes it much easier to analyse where a tactic is going wrong, and where it is going right.

7) Use roles and duties that make sense! This may sound obvious but sometimes you will look at tactics and think "just imagine what real players would think if you asked them to do that on the pitch". As an example, I use a very attacking DL, with a ML who sits narrower and cuts inside. My main DL has the PPM 'Gets forward whenever possible' and my main ML has the PPM 'Gets into opposition area', so you can see that I am extremely attacking on the left flank. I also play a BBM(S) who likes to get forward. So, the first thing I need to do is make sure my BBM is not on the left side of the central midfield, as he would be tripping over the ML as they both tried to occupy the same space. The second thing I need to do is make sure my other central midfielder covers for all of these guys charging forward, and also acts as a deep unmarked player who can receive and recycle the ball. So, I set him up as a BWM(D), making sure he doesn't have conflicting PPMs.

8) One game is not enough to tell you if a tactic works or not. You may have a lovely set up on your right flank, for instance, but if your right midfielder has a bad day at the office on the day you decide to evaluate the tactic, you will not get a proper appreciation for how it plays on the field. I have been playing my defensive/fluid 4-4-2 for over 3 seasons now with Leeds, and I still tweak it here and there to try to improve it, and I am still analysing it for weaknesses.

9) Be very careful with the following TIs: 'Look for overlap' and 'Hit early crosses'. I have found that they have more unintended consequences to my onfield play than they have positive outcomes. I also only ever use the 'Exploit Flanks' or 'Clear ball to flanks' shouts as specific responses to in game events. I would never use them as part of a baseline tactical setup as I would rather my players use their own initiative as to where to pass the ball. There are times where I will try to specifically target an opposing player or tactical weakness, and it is those times (during a match) that I will use these shouts.

10) Use Mentality and Shape as your in-match tools for changing the way your team plays, rather than switching tactics during a match or messing around with altering loads of TIs. Mentality changes will affect width, time wasting, tempo, closing down, defensive line and passing directness in an intuitive way, without you having to alter any other settings. I can switch from a defensive mentality to a standard mentality, and my team will push up and become more compact vertically, pass the ball round quicker, whilst also closing down the opposition more and spreading the play wider to the flanks, all at the click of a single button. By altering shape as well I can affect creativity and compactness, whilst also allowing my support players more or less influence in the transition phases. The odd duty change on a player can also help, but don't overdo it!

11) The only caveat to the above is if you have a tactic using the same basic formation that is radically different in style. For instance, my basic tactic is a defensive/fluid 4-4-2, which is designed to allow my team to either break from the back against an attacking opposition, or build quickly but safely from the back into advanced positions from which my creative players can fashion chances for my strikers. However, I have another 4-4-2 which is a more aggressive pressing style with a high defensive line. It would take too many clicks of buttons to change from one to another in the tactics screen, so I have that as my second tactic, so that I can just swap between the two if I feel it necessary to unsettle the opposition by trying something different.

12) Use simple PIs on specific players to modify your players on the field. For example, as I mentioned earlier, my DL is great at going forward, so I give him a WB(A) role and duty. He needs space to run into, so my ML, who is set up as a non-specialist WM(S), is given the PIs 'Sit narrower' and 'Cut inside with ball'. This means that opposition defenders and midifelders are often dragged inside marking my ML, leaving bags of room for my attacking DL to run into.

13) Keep things simple. This bears saying twice! Seriously, I used to have tactics with 9 or 10 TIs (or even more, I think 11 is my record!), as I thought that was what I needed to do. My basic tactic now has 4, and my pressing tactic has 6, and I flat refuse to use more than that! More TIs only serve to make it more difficult to analyse your play and make it more likely that you will accidentally issue conflicting orders to your team.

 

That's probably enough waffle from me! I hope the above advice helps a little. Ultimately, I have found that only the player can address issues with their own tactic, as they are the ones sitting in front of the PC with access to all of the information. Keep it simple, and watch LOTS of matches... oh, and in the initial phases of tactic development, use Full Match, or you will never fully get to grips with the way your team is playing.

:)

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12 minutes ago, RorysRocketThrow said:

How long have you got and how far back do you want to go?  In terms of FM failure, i'm probably up there with the best.  :D  Current system, which is as up and down as all of the others i've "put together" is:

GK(D)

FB(S)  CD(D)  CD(D)  FB(S)

WP(A)  CM(S)  DLP(D)  WM(S)

AF(A)  TM(S)

Flexible / Standard (generally change this depending on opposition.  If opposition are playing a 4-2-3-1 I generally add exploit both flanks to try and exploit the gap between wide men and full backs.

Main problem is conceding roughly one or two per game and struggling to create.  I'm in League Two with Doncaster, so have decided to go with a target man to get the ball up front.  The target man is generally holding the ball up well and linking up with the left winger and deep lying playmaker.  Moves just generally break down from there.  Midfield in the middle seems too static.  I've tried changing the CM(S) to a BBM or AP(S) but it leaves me way too open with the WP(A).  I've also tried changing that to a WM(S) and WP(S) but seem to lose my attacking purpose down that flank (even with adding an attack duty to the full back).  I've tried leaving the midfield as-is and changing the mentality up a notch to control, to try and get a bit more from the CM(S).  Nothing.

Overall I don't feel the system is that bad, and it doesn't play like it's that bad either.  It just isn't that good either!  :D

How do u play? Tactic i mean. 

Maybe your players has too urgency so  maybe decreasing the mentality could be a good idea.

Then pick the cm to a ap s and the  right  wm if is  Left  footed he could  act like a raumdeuter but  on support giving him the same instructions of a raumdeuter. Sitting narrow you could think to make your right fb always on support but giving  him to go forward whenever possible.     Try to put your tm with attack duty and your af like a dlf on support. 

Then think about the kind of crosses you should have for your  tm. 

Then don't give  up and fixe issues one by one. I mean don 't change 1)000 things per time

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4 minutes ago, facman said:

I posted this in a different thread at the request of @Shameless1, and I think it might have relevance here (especially section 3 - I never, ever hear people talking about the PPMs their players have, and yet PPMs will totally change a system between the drawing board and the pitch!):

Hi @Shameless1,

the first thing I would say is just some general advice that I have found has helped me in the last few months (which is when I finally decided to knuckle down and understand football from a tactical perspective - I was at the England match earlier this week and found myself thinking about what role and duty Koke had when he came on! ;) ).

1) Don't think in terms of Home and Away tactics. This always used to be the case many years ago, but the ME is much more dynamic and sophisticated now, so tactical thinking has to change.

2) Pick a basic formation that fits the majority of your players, but don't get too bothered about them being naturals in the positions you choose. For example, I play 4-4-2. I have a number of players who are natural AMR/L, but only accomplished at MR/L, but I would still rather play with MR/L because it fits the system I have developed.

3) Look at the PPMs of your players! PPMs will affect your tactics in a massive way, and can be both positive and negative. I noted that you spent a long time putting together a lovely table in the OP detailing your squad, and didn't list a single PPM (It was the first thing I looked for). I have Lewis Cook in my Leeds team playing as a BBM(S). Why? Well the BBM has the PI 'Roam from position', and Lewis Cook has the PPMs 'Runs with ball through centre' and 'Comes deep to get ball'. His PPMs support and reinforce the PI of his role. Originally, my tactic called for him to play as a CM(D) (a necessary role as in my first 2 seasons I was very much the underdog and needed a lot of midfield stability rather than creativity), which has the PI 'Hold Position'. This PI goes against Lewis Cook's natural instincts on the field of play, and resulted in a less effective player. As soon as I swapped his role to that of a BBM(S), he blossomed and he has averaged 7.57 in 33 appearances so far this season, with 3 goals, 9 assists and 7 Player of the Match awards. In my first 3 seasons, before I made the swap from CM(D) to BBM(S) he averaged 7.2, which was still good, but look at how much more effective he has become on the pitch. PPMs can help you or hinder you, so it pays to be aware of them at all times.

4) So long as that formation and roles and duties are fairly balanced, it should work reasonably on the field without too many TIs or PIs.

5) Read WWFan's https://community.sigames.com/topic/295001-how-to-play-fm-a-twelve-step-guide/ focusing especially on section 1. Limit yourself to the number of specialist roles it suggests. This will reduce the tendency to overcomplicate tactics.

6) Keep things simple. Reducing the number of TIs, PIs and specialist roles makes it much easier to analyse where a tactic is going wrong, and where it is going right.

7) Use roles and duties that make sense! This may sound obvious but sometimes you will look at tactics and think "just imagine what real players would think if you asked them to do that on the pitch". As an example, I use a very attacking DL, with a ML who sits narrower and cuts inside. My main DL has the PPM 'Gets forward whenever possible' and my main ML has the PPM 'Gets into opposition area', so you can see that I am extremely attacking on the left flank. I also play a BBM(S) who likes to get forward. So, the first thing I need to do is make sure my BBM is not on the left side of the central midfield, as he would be tripping over the ML as they both tried to occupy the same space. The second thing I need to do is make sure my other central midfielder covers for all of these guys charging forward, and also acts as a deep unmarked player who can receive and recycle the ball. So, I set him up as a BWM(D), making sure he doesn't have conflicting PPMs.

8) One game is not enough to tell you if a tactic works or not. You may have a lovely set up on your right flank, for instance, but if your right midfielder has a bad day at the office on the day you decide to evaluate the tactic, you will not get a proper appreciation for how it plays on the field. I have been playing my defensive/fluid 4-4-2 for over 3 seasons now with Leeds, and I still tweak it here and there to try to improve it, and I am still analysing it for weaknesses.

9) Be very careful with the following TIs: 'Look for overlap' and 'Hit early crosses'. I have found that they have more unintended consequences to my onfield play than they have positive outcomes. I also only ever use the 'Exploit Flanks' or 'Clear ball to flanks' shouts as specific responses to in game events. I would never use them as part of a baseline tactical setup as I would rather my players use their own initiative as to where to pass the ball. There are times where I will try to specifically target an opposing player or tactical weakness, and it is those times (during a match) that I will use these shouts.

10) Use Mentality and Shape as your in-match tools for changing the way your team plays, rather than switching tactics during a match or messing around with altering loads of TIs. Mentality changes will affect width, time wasting, tempo, closing down, defensive line and passing directness in an intuitive way, without you having to alter any other settings. I can switch from a defensive mentality to a standard mentality, and my team will push up and become more compact vertically, pass the ball round quicker, whilst also closing down the opposition more and spreading the play wider to the flanks, all at the click of a single button. By altering shape as well I can affect creativity and compactness, whilst also allowing my support players more or less influence in the transition phases. The odd duty change on a player can also help, but don't overdo it!

11) The only caveat to the above is if you have a tactic using the same basic formation that is radically different in style. For instance, my basic tactic is a defensive/fluid 4-4-2, which is designed to allow my team to either break from the back against an attacking opposition, or build quickly but safely from the back into advanced positions from which my creative players can fashion chances for my strikers. However, I have another 4-4-2 which is a more aggressive pressing style with a high defensive line. It would take too many clicks of buttons to change from one to another in the tactics screen, so I have that as my second tactic, so that I can just swap between the two if I feel it necessary to unsettle the opposition by trying something different.

12) Use simple PIs on specific players to modify your players on the field. For example, as I mentioned earlier, my DL is great at going forward, so I give him a WB(A) role and duty. He needs space to run into, so my ML, who is set up as a non-specialist WM(S), is given the PIs 'Sit narrower' and 'Cut inside with ball'. This means that opposition defenders and midifelders are often dragged inside marking my ML, leaving bags of room for my attacking DL to run into.

13) Keep things simple. This bears saying twice! Seriously, I used to have tactics with 9 or 10 TIs (or even more, I think 11 is my record!), as I thought that was what I needed to do. My basic tactic now has 4, and my pressing tactic has 6, and I flat refuse to use more than that! More TIs only serve to make it more difficult to analyse your play and make it more likely that you will accidentally issue conflicting orders to your team.

 

That's probably enough waffle from me! I hope the above advice helps a little. Ultimately, I have found that only the player can address issues with their own tactic, as they are the ones sitting in front of the PC with access to all of the information. Keep it simple, and watch LOTS of matches... oh, and in the initial phases of tactic development, use Full Match, or you will never fully get to grips with the way your team is playing.

:)

I will read again tomorrow! :)

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7 minutes ago, facman said:

I posted this in a different thread at the request of @Shameless1, and I think it might have relevance here (especially section 3 - I never, ever hear people talking about the PPMs their players have, and yet PPMs will totally change a system between the drawing board and the pitch!):

Hi @Shameless1,

the first thing I would say is just some general advice that I have found has helped me in the last few months (which is when I finally decided to knuckle down and understand football from a tactical perspective - I was at the England match earlier this week and found myself thinking about what role and duty Koke had when he came on! ;) ).

1) Don't think in terms of Home and Away tactics. This always used to be the case many years ago, but the ME is much more dynamic and sophisticated now, so tactical thinking has to change.

2) Pick a basic formation that fits the majority of your players, but don't get too bothered about them being naturals in the positions you choose. For example, I play 4-4-2. I have a number of players who are natural AMR/L, but only accomplished at MR/L, but I would still rather play with MR/L because it fits the system I have developed.

3) Look at the PPMs of your players! PPMs will affect your tactics in a massive way, and can be both positive and negative. I noted that you spent a long time putting together a lovely table in the OP detailing your squad, and didn't list a single PPM (It was the first thing I looked for). I have Lewis Cook in my Leeds team playing as a BBM(S). Why? Well the BBM has the PI 'Roam from position', and Lewis Cook has the PPMs 'Runs with ball through centre' and 'Comes deep to get ball'. His PPMs support and reinforce the PI of his role. Originally, my tactic called for him to play as a CM(D) (a necessary role as in my first 2 seasons I was very much the underdog and needed a lot of midfield stability rather than creativity), which has the PI 'Hold Position'. This PI goes against Lewis Cook's natural instincts on the field of play, and resulted in a less effective player. As soon as I swapped his role to that of a BBM(S), he blossomed and he has averaged 7.57 in 33 appearances so far this season, with 3 goals, 9 assists and 7 Player of the Match awards. In my first 3 seasons, before I made the swap from CM(D) to BBM(S) he averaged 7.2, which was still good, but look at how much more effective he has become on the pitch. PPMs can help you or hinder you, so it pays to be aware of them at all times.

4) So long as that formation and roles and duties are fairly balanced, it should work reasonably on the field without too many TIs or PIs.

5) Read WWFan's https://community.sigames.com/topic/295001-how-to-play-fm-a-twelve-step-guide/ focusing especially on section 1. Limit yourself to the number of specialist roles it suggests. This will reduce the tendency to overcomplicate tactics.

6) Keep things simple. Reducing the number of TIs, PIs and specialist roles makes it much easier to analyse where a tactic is going wrong, and where it is going right.

7) Use roles and duties that make sense! This may sound obvious but sometimes you will look at tactics and think "just imagine what real players would think if you asked them to do that on the pitch". As an example, I use a very attacking DL, with a ML who sits narrower and cuts inside. My main DL has the PPM 'Gets forward whenever possible' and my main ML has the PPM 'Gets into opposition area', so you can see that I am extremely attacking on the left flank. I also play a BBM(S) who likes to get forward. So, the first thing I need to do is make sure my BBM is not on the left side of the central midfield, as he would be tripping over the ML as they both tried to occupy the same space. The second thing I need to do is make sure my other central midfielder covers for all of these guys charging forward, and also acts as a deep unmarked player who can receive and recycle the ball. So, I set him up as a BWM(D), making sure he doesn't have conflicting PPMs.

8) One game is not enough to tell you if a tactic works or not. You may have a lovely set up on your right flank, for instance, but if your right midfielder has a bad day at the office on the day you decide to evaluate the tactic, you will not get a proper appreciation for how it plays on the field. I have been playing my defensive/fluid 4-4-2 for over 3 seasons now with Leeds, and I still tweak it here and there to try to improve it, and I am still analysing it for weaknesses.

9) Be very careful with the following TIs: 'Look for overlap' and 'Hit early crosses'. I have found that they have more unintended consequences to my onfield play than they have positive outcomes. I also only ever use the 'Exploit Flanks' or 'Clear ball to flanks' shouts as specific responses to in game events. I would never use them as part of a baseline tactical setup as I would rather my players use their own initiative as to where to pass the ball. There are times where I will try to specifically target an opposing player or tactical weakness, and it is those times (during a match) that I will use these shouts.

10) Use Mentality and Shape as your in-match tools for changing the way your team plays, rather than switching tactics during a match or messing around with altering loads of TIs. Mentality changes will affect width, time wasting, tempo, closing down, defensive line and passing directness in an intuitive way, without you having to alter any other settings. I can switch from a defensive mentality to a standard mentality, and my team will push up and become more compact vertically, pass the ball round quicker, whilst also closing down the opposition more and spreading the play wider to the flanks, all at the click of a single button. By altering shape as well I can affect creativity and compactness, whilst also allowing my support players more or less influence in the transition phases. The odd duty change on a player can also help, but don't overdo it!

11) The only caveat to the above is if you have a tactic using the same basic formation that is radically different in style. For instance, my basic tactic is a defensive/fluid 4-4-2, which is designed to allow my team to either break from the back against an attacking opposition, or build quickly but safely from the back into advanced positions from which my creative players can fashion chances for my strikers. However, I have another 4-4-2 which is a more aggressive pressing style with a high defensive line. It would take too many clicks of buttons to change from one to another in the tactics screen, so I have that as my second tactic, so that I can just swap between the two if I feel it necessary to unsettle the opposition by trying something different.

12) Use simple PIs on specific players to modify your players on the field. For example, as I mentioned earlier, my DL is great at going forward, so I give him a WB(A) role and duty. He needs space to run into, so my ML, who is set up as a non-specialist WM(S), is given the PIs 'Sit narrower' and 'Cut inside with ball'. This means that opposition defenders and midifelders are often dragged inside marking my ML, leaving bags of room for my attacking DL to run into.

13) Keep things simple. This bears saying twice! Seriously, I used to have tactics with 9 or 10 TIs (or even more, I think 11 is my record!), as I thought that was what I needed to do. My basic tactic now has 4, and my pressing tactic has 6, and I flat refuse to use more than that! More TIs only serve to make it more difficult to analyse your play and make it more likely that you will accidentally issue conflicting orders to your team.

 

That's probably enough waffle from me! I hope the above advice helps a little. Ultimately, I have found that only the player can address issues with their own tactic, as they are the ones sitting in front of the PC with access to all of the information. Keep it simple, and watch LOTS of matches... oh, and in the initial phases of tactic development, use Full Match, or you will never fully get to grips with the way your team is playing.

:)

Really good summary.

If you read my opening post, I think all this items are covered. So, if after doing all this, I still struggle, what's next?

There is only 1 thing I don't do: change shape during matches.

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1 hour ago, looping said:

Really good summary.

If you read my opening post, I think all this items are covered. So, if after doing all this, I still struggle, what's next?

There is only 1 thing I don't do: change shape during matches.

Firstly, I don't think you have done all of the things I mentioned. In section 5 I suggest using WWFan's guide. In that guide, it suggests that a Structured system should use 3-4 specialist roles, in order to 'explain' to your players how you want them to play. More fluid systems require fewer specialist roles. In your OP, you are using a Structured system, but you only have 1 specialist (the Poacher). Essentially, this means that your players are playing without tactical direction, so it isn't really surprising that they are underperforming- they don't know what their job is on the pitch. Change to a Fluid shape, more of the support players will join in with transitions, they will also get more creative freedom to use their own skills to decide what to do, and you might see them perform better with generalist roles.

Also, if you are struggling with regularly competing in matches, it is because there is either something wrong with your tactic or with your responses (or lack of) to AI tactical changes. Possibly it is unstable or has too many weaknesses, or it doesn't fit your players. The problem is (and you admitted this on the previous page) that you don't watch matches (Key highlights only as I understand it) and you don't pay attention (your words), so you will never be in a position to properly identify those weaknesses and correct them.

Take a look at the following post. I was unhappy with conceding 18 goals in 11 league games between February 2018 and the end of the season, so I took the time to watch and make notes of every goal we conceded, categorised them, and looked for patterns that I could potentially fix. That was last season. This season we currently have the best defence in the Premiership, and are sitting 4th in the table. Why? Because I learned from my defensive errors last season and tried to correct them, using the massive amount of data the game stores for us to utilise.

 

Edited by facman

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8 hours ago, Shameless1 said:

How do u play? Tactic i mean. 

Maybe your players has too urgency so  maybe decreasing the mentality could be a good idea.

Then pick the cm to a ap s and the  right  wm if is  Left  footed he could  act like a raumdeuter but  on support giving him the same instructions of a raumdeuter. Sitting narrow you could think to make your right fb always on support but giving  him to go forward whenever possible.     Try to put your tm with attack duty and your af like a dlf on support. 

Then think about the kind of crosses you should have for your  tm. 

Then don't give  up and fixe issues one by one. I mean don 't change 1)000 things per time

Thanks for that but a few questions If I may?

Why introduce a Raumdeuter type player?

Why change the AF to a DLF and change the TM to Attack?  What will that achieve?

Thanks.

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53 minutes ago, RorysRocketThrow said:

Thanks for that but a few questions If I may?

Why introduce a Raumdeuter type player?

Why change the AF to a DLF and change the TM to Attack?  What will that achieve?

Thanks.

I'm not so able like someone else but i try to give you some example of what i actually understood.

Here is only an example. it's only an example on paper so try to understand what i say.

 

Let's the right wm Acting like a raumdeuter means that your wmr will looking for space to explore.

He will sit narrower, he will roam but playin on midfield he will cover more, he will close down more.

The dlf will come back to midfield the left fb will go on support and explore the space. You could do what u want, just think about how u want they move on the pitch. When u have an idea in mind try to see if your players moves how u wish first.

 

ABout the TM on attack duty it could be good if u have good crosser to cross for him while the dlf create some space for him coming back to the midfield.

I'm actually doing:

First:  General idea in mind about how i want to play.

- I have this idea in mind so i choos my formation  knowing that the formation u see on the tactic creator is our defensive shape so a 4-1-4-1 could act also like a real 4-2-3-1 on attack.

- Balancing the roles' duty - Something like, ok i have a pressing winger so it could be good to have my fb on attack, but this is only ion paper, this is an idea.

 

 

Then:

- how i want to play? safer? not safer? balanced?

- here comes mentality, low risk less attacking mentality, more risk more attacking mentality. DOn't look at the description of counter ext.

 

 

 

philosophy - here i don't know really but, if you want the same mentality and to be more compact you go on fluid or very fluid. If you want more distance between them more structured. Also more structured means less creativity but you could want to increase it, it now wrong create a structured philosophy with more creativity. U can do what u want. But, for example if u have a pure 4-2-3-1 it' s better to have a fluid system because if u put a structured system u will see for example more space but also that your if will not come back to help your fb. To fix it you could select tha man marking for them over opponents fb, This is only an example. Or for example if u play structured u must pay attention at role and duty cause it's esay for example have too space between defenders and midfielders.

 

 

Another example:

I wanna play offside? yes.

Ok. So: 

attributes to look:

1) position 

2) decision

3)Anticipation

4) concentration

5) decision

6) composure

7) tackling

u see for me to play an offside trap i need these attributes.

Then, do i want to play how? short pass? why? how i want they move on the pitch? how can i create space movement and variation.

First u have to think about mentality.

 

Don't look at the description. Mentality means only risk. It means on higher mentality that your players will act playing more riscky pass, closing down more will try to dribble more. SO if u play on attack with a 4231for example your players will  closing down heavily and it will be easy that you will not have space to play because you are forcing too much opponents playing this way so they will stay close will not press you and will wait. They will always try the hardest things so it's also easy that u will loose the ball. The u will see a lot of possession with nothing. This is my opinion.

 

You could achieve also a good possession ball in countermentality . Why? They have lower risk mentality, they will play safer than a control mentality, they will choice the less risk they will recycle possession, if u decide to let them play shorter pass with a good balance u will see  nice passages and a u could also achieve a real counter tactic on attack mentality.  AT the end, a real counter tactic is an attacking strategy. I mean, stay with a low defensive line, low pressing and the once we have the ball....bang direct pass for who is up hgher on the pitch. So the tempo is high players play the ball quickly cause oppontents are unbalanced. This is a counter, in italian we say contropiede (counterattack) or literally ripartenza (restarting) it's a football made of lightning counter. And with a counter mentality on fm is not easy to play this way while with an attacking mentality more simple. This is what i think.

a.jpg

 

 

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1 hour ago, Shameless1 said:

 

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain.  Some interesting thoughts in that and some that will give me food for thought.

Thank you.

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12 minutes ago, RorysRocketThrow said:

Thank you very much for taking the time to explain.  Some interesting thoughts in that and some that will give me food for thought.

Thank you.

It's only my way to think, if it help you really let me know :)

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12 hours ago, facman said:

Firstly, I don't think you have done all of the things I mentioned. In section 5 I suggest using WWFan's guide. In that guide, it suggests that a Structured system should use 3-4 specialist roles, in order to 'explain' to your players how you want them to play. More fluid systems require fewer specialist roles. In your OP, you are using a Structured system, but you only have 1 specialist (the Poacher). Essentially, this means that your players are playing without tactical direction, so it isn't really surprising that they are underperforming- they don't know what their job is on the pitch. Change to a Fluid shape, more of the support players will join in with transitions, they will also get more creative freedom to use their own skills to decide what to do, and you might see them perform better with generalist roles.

Also, if you are struggling with regularly competing in matches, it is because there is either something wrong with your tactic or with your responses (or lack of) to AI tactical changes. Possibly it is unstable or has too many weaknesses, or it doesn't fit your players. The problem is (and you admitted this on the previous page) that you don't watch matches (Key highlights only as I understand it) and you don't pay attention (your words), so you will never be in a position to properly identify those weaknesses and correct them.

Take a look at the following post. I was unhappy with conceding 18 goals in 11 league games between February 2018 and the end of the season, so I took the time to watch and make notes of every goal we conceded, categorised them, and looked for patterns that I could potentially fix. That was last season. This season we currently have the best defence in the Premiership, and are sitting 4th in the table. Why? Because I learned from my defensive errors last season and tried to correct them, using the massive amount of data the game stores for us to utilise.

 

I've found a discrepancy. If we look on your tactic, you use 4 specific roles (BBM, BWM, WP, F9) but your team shape is fluid. It's not according to 12 steps guide. I know that this guide is not a gospel, however, why have you chosen another type of the shape?

I would like you to continue revealing information about adaption to opponents. Maybe you should create your own thread.

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2 hours ago, cfkllasdfaslkdfj said:

I've found a discrepancy. If we look on your tactic, you use 4 specific roles (BBM, BWM, WP, F9) but your team shape is fluid. It's not according to 12 steps guide. I know that this guide is not a gospel, however, why have you chosen another type of the shape?

Good question. In the WWFan 12 step guide, he lists some roles as being specialist, some as generic, and others as being open to interpretation (Box to Box midfielder, Ball Playing Defender etc). Looking at my tactic, I use the following roles which are definitely specialist:

 - F9

 - BWM

The BBM is open to interpretation, and I personally don't think it is a specialist role. Essentially, it is a midfielder who has good all round attributes and a big engine, who is given license to use that engine to run around the park! The other role, that of WP, I have since altered to being a Winger(Attack), which is a generic role, with only 1 of my players allowed to switch back to playing as a Wide Playmaker (James Ward-Prowse) because he is so good at it! I allowed that switch only after extensive testing during games, and even now JWP still spends half of his time on the pitch playing as a winger (e.g I've just beaten AS Monaco 2-1 at home in the Europa League Quarter Final. JWP played the first 20 minutes as a WP(A), before I switched him to a W(A) for the rest of the game, as he wasn't finding space cutting in from wide positions due to Moutinho and Obiang dominating the middle of the field).

Essentially, then, I do still fall into the category of following the 12 step guide, as I use 2 specialist roles as permanent roles in my team (F9, BWM). 1 of my players is allowed to break that rule by playing as a WP some of the time if I think it will benefit the team on the pitch. As you said in your question, the 12 step guide isn't gospel, so breaking it here and there is OK if it is done as a deliberate act.

:)

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On 17 November 2016 at 06:36, looping said:

I didn't see this before.  This is totally unacceptable and out of place. Nobody is complaining. Nobody is expecting anything to bend over to anything. Do you pay any attention to what other people writes? Did you read this?

Did you read this? Really? Or you are only paying attention to your own words which for sure are inspired by a superior force?

Close the thread if you want. Even better, ban me for life. Do whatever you want, but keep in mind this thread is helping me and other users, this help has inspired other threads and contributions. We were having fun here and learning slowly, but happily, before you come here with your insolence. What's inside your mind that forces you to belittle and humiliate others? 

You are a fm genius but you still have a lot to learn about empathy.

OMG I read what you posted which is why I responded the way I did. I have tried to offer advice but you are stubbornly insisting to play the game your way ( re: u don't watch highlights). 

People started whining.  If you didn't read those comments I suggest you go through every post in this thread. My job is to moderate and make sure the thread stays constructive. If you don't like the way I do stuff you are more than welcome to write in to SI or you can post somewhere else. Your choice.

 

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16 hours ago, facman said:

Firstly, I don't think you have done all of the things I mentioned. In section 5 I suggest using WWFan's guide. In that guide, it suggests that a Structured system should use 3-4 specialist roles, in order to 'explain' to your players how you want them to play. More fluid systems require fewer specialist roles. In your OP, you are using a Structured system, but you only have 1 specialist (the Poacher). Essentially, this means that your players are playing without tactical direction, so it isn't really surprising that they are underperforming- they don't know what their job is on the pitch. Change to a Fluid shape, more of the support players will join in with transitions, they will also get more creative freedom to use their own skills to decide what to do, and you might see them perform better with generalist roles.

Interesting. Nobody raised this before. I'll go back to this later.

16 hours ago, facman said:

Also, if you are struggling with regularly competing in matches, it is because there is either something wrong with your tactic or with your responses (or lack of) to AI tactical changes. Possibly it is unstable or has too many weaknesses, or it doesn't fit your players. The problem is (and you admitted this on the previous page) that you don't watch matches (Key highlights only as I understand it) and you don't pay attention (your words), so you will never be in a position to properly identify those weaknesses and correct them.

 

On 16/11/2016 at 01:24, looping said:

Not watching games (key highlights). Not paying much attention. Before the match starts I set the mentality. For instance, against Barcelona I went defensive. Last 10 mins contain. Result 1-1 (away). Against weak teams at home I start with Control. I can go attacking if I don't score.

I played 19 games, with Malaga. 8 wins, 6 draw 5 lost. Not bad results. The best, by far, in months. I'm a conceding machine (23 conceded, 31 scored), specially in last minutes and I have no idea what to do with shape. I don't know when change to fluid or structured.

I'd like to play with shape the same way I do with mentality (if I they attack I defend, if they defend I attack). Can I do something similar with shape? This would be a great improvement I think...

I didn't watch 19 games,  in a dummy test where I was playing games and only applying mentality changes during the match. I've been watching matches full 90 minutes for the last year and I can't tell you why I'm losing. I don't know why I'm losing. I watch the game, take notes but no idea why I lost. No idea why I'm conceding. 

17 hours ago, facman said:

1) Don't think in terms of Home and Away tactics. This always used to be the case many years ago, but the ME is much more dynamic and sophisticated now, so tactical thinking has to change.

Done. I don't have home tactic and an away tactic. I have 1 tactic and I want to adjust it depending on the circumstances.

 

18 hours ago, facman said:

2) Pick a basic formation that fits the majority of your players, but don't get too bothered about them being naturals in the positions you choose. For example, I play 4-4-2. I have a number of players who are natural AMR/L, but only accomplished at MR/L, but I would still rather play with MR/L because it fits the system I have developed

Done. My tactic fits the majority of my players, and, specially, me preferred eleven.

18 hours ago, facman said:

3) Look at the PPMs of your players! PPMs will affect your tactics in a massive way, and can be both positive and negative. I noted that you spent a long time putting together a lovely table in the OP detailing your squad, and didn't list a single PPM (It was the first thing I looked for). I have Lewis Cook in my Leeds team playing as a BBM(S). Why? Well the BBM has the PI 'Roam from position', and Lewis Cook has the PPMs 'Runs with ball through centre' and 'Comes deep to get ball'. His PPMs support and reinforce the PI of his role. Originally, my tactic called for him to play as a CM(D) (a necessary role as in my first 2 seasons I was very much the underdog and needed a lot of midfield stability rather than creativity), which has the PI 'Hold Position'. This PI goes against Lewis Cook's natural instincts on the field of play, and resulted in a less effective player. As soon as I swapped his role to that of a BBM(S), he blossomed and he has averaged 7.57 in 33 appearances so far this season, with 3 goals, 9 assists and 7 Player of the Match awards. In my first 3 seasons, before I made the swap from CM(D) to BBM(S) he averaged 7.2, which was still good, but look at how much more effective he has become on the pitch. PPMs can help you or hinder you, so it pays to be aware of them at all times.

Done and covered in my opening post.

 

18 hours ago, facman said:

4) So long as that formation and roles and duties are fairly balanced, it should work reasonably on the field without too many TIs or PIs.

Done. It worked reasonably. Not happy, but decent results at least.

18 hours ago, facman said:

5) Read WWFan's https://community.sigames.com/topic/295001-how-to-play-fm-a-twelve-step-guide/ focusing especially on section 1. Limit yourself to the number of specialist roles it suggests. This will reduce the tendency to overcomplicate tactics.

According to that guide, I'd need an attacking duty in the defense. I only can give an attacking duty to a fb. To open space to that fullback, I need one of my wide midfielders to cut inside (with the simple PI or changing the role).

2 hours ago, facman said:

As you said in your question, the 12 step guide isn't gospel, so breaking it here and there is OK if it is done as a deliberate act

I don't want to have an attacking fullback (covered in my opening post) and I don't want my wide midfielders to cut inside (covered in the opening post. So I deliberately won't do that.

As you state, I may need to go to fluid shape. I'll try that.

18 hours ago, facman said:

6) Keep things simple. Reducing the number of TIs, PIs and specialist roles makes it much easier to analyse where a tactic is going wrong, and where it is going right.

Done.

18 hours ago, facman said:

7) Use roles and duties that make sense! This may sound obvious but sometimes you will look at tactics and think "just imagine what real players would think if you asked them to do that on the pitch". As an example, I use a very attacking DL, with a ML who sits narrower and cuts inside. My main DL has the PPM 'Gets forward whenever possible' and my main ML has the PPM 'Gets into opposition area', so you can see that I am extremely attacking on the left flank. I also play a BBM(S) who likes to get forward. So, the first thing I need to do is make sure my BBM is not on the left side of the central midfield, as he would be tripping over the ML as they both tried to occupy the same space. The second thing I need to do is make sure my other central midfielder covers for all of these guys charging forward, and also acts as a deep unmarked player who can receive and recycle the ball. So, I set him up as a BWM(D), making sure he doesn't have conflicting PPMs.

Covered in my opening post.

18 hours ago, facman said:

9) Be very careful with the following TIs: 'Look for overlap' and 'Hit early crosses'. I have found that they have more unintended consequences to my onfield play than they have positive outcomes. I also only ever use the 'Exploit Flanks' or 'Clear ball to flanks' shouts as specific responses to in game events. I would never use them as part of a baseline tactical setup as I would rather my players use their own initiative as to where to pass the ball. There are times where I will try to specifically target an opposing player or tactical weakness, and it is those times (during a match) that I will use these shouts.

Not using that shouts.

18 hours ago, facman said:

10) Use Mentality and Shape as your in-match tools for changing the way your team plays, rather than switching tactics during a match or messing around with altering loads of TIs. Mentality changes will affect width, time wasting, tempo, closing down, defensive line and passing directness in an intuitive way, without you having to alter any other settings. I can switch from a defensive mentality to a standard mentality, and my team will push up and become more compact vertically, pass the ball round quicker, whilst also closing down the opposition more and spreading the play wider to the flanks, all at the click of a single button. By altering shape as well I can affect creativity and compactness, whilst also allowing my support players more or less influence in the transition phases. The odd duty change on a player can also help, but don't overdo it!

This is what I'm trying. More or less I can use mentality, but no idea what to do with shape. I don't see on the pitch how it affects to my players. My problem is that I'm not able to spot things during the matches despite I'm watching full games all time. You can check it in this thread (previous post, first 2 pages for instance).

18 hours ago, facman said:

12) Use simple PIs on specific players to modify your players on the field. For example, as I mentioned earlier, my DL is great at going forward, so I give him a WB(A) role and duty. He needs space to run into, so my ML, who is set up as a non-specialist WM(S), is given the PIs 'Sit narrower' and 'Cut inside with ball'. This means that opposition defenders and midifelders are often dragged inside marking my ML, leaving bags of room for my attacking DL to run into.

Already covered.

18 hours ago, facman said:

13) Keep things simple. This bears saying twice! Seriously, I used to have tactics with 9 or 10 TIs (or even more, I think 11 is my record!), as I thought that was what I needed to do. My basic tactic now has 4, and my pressing tactic has 6, and I flat refuse to use more than that! More TIs only serve to make it more difficult to analyse your play and make it more likely that you will accidentally issue conflicting orders to your team

Done.

 

So, I will change to fluid and watch matches on full (I'm already doing it). If I can't spot what's wrong, what can I do? What's next?

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8 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

OMG I read what you posted which is why I responded the way I did. I have tried to offer advice but you are stubbornly insisting to play the game your way ( re: u don't watch highlights). 

People started whining.  If you didn't read those comments I suggest you go through every post in this thread. My job is to moderate and make sure the thread stays constructive. If you don't like the way I do stuff you are more than welcome to write in to SI or you can post somewhere else. Your choice.

I'll do my best here.

I'm watching matches on full. Even 90 minutes. I do it. You can check my posts in this thread (first 2 pages for instance). You will see I'm doing it all the time.

The only thing I tried is using one of my dummy saves to try an experiment. I explained this (page 4) but I can do it again. 

I used a tactic with no Pi, no TI, standard-flexible and started playing games only adjusting mentality. This was an experiment to see how only changing mentality can be useful. The idea behind was, I have a decent tactic, so I have to adapt to circumstances. Let's start with mentality. Let's see how mentality influences my results.  I was inspired by @Loversleaper post (page 3) where he explained his approach to the game (Watford save).

I'm watching games. I'm doing it. You can see how I'm doing it. You can read it.

You come here and basically say I'm not doing anything to progress. That is not fair. My opening post was unanimously praised and so were some of my later posts (how I spot the problem of a 442 against a 433, outnumbering me in midfield), but you probably haven't seem them.

I know you can help me a lot because you are a fm expert, but I want you to understand that not everybody is able to see things as soon as you. Not everybody is as talented and gifted as you. If you say "you have to understand why your players don't get up in transition", I simply don't know what exactly to do. I want to do it, believe me, but I don't know how. I watch a match and? What I have to see? No idea.

If you can help me, it would be stupid to dismiss it, but, try with a bit more or empathy, if it is possible.

And this are my last words about the incident.


 

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I feel your pain, looping.

I'm in the same situation as you. Absolutely no idea what i'm doing wrong.
I've read this thread over and over again and it's like you're writing on my behalf :D

I've read all the guides, tips, strategies, here on this forum and other forums. I've watched videos.
I have done this for the last 3 iterations of FM and i'm getting increasingly worse for each guide i read and each video i watch.
I try to stick to the most informative guides and videos (twelve-step guide, Rashidi's videos, Building a Tactic from the beginning etc.)
What i do find interesting though is that the videos i see that completely disregards all those ideas and guides are normally very successful.
Something that confuses me even more because that's when i start questioning the importance of those mentioned guides. Which then has me caught in between.
Might possibly be because they're using exploits. On purpose or not. So, how do i know what an exploit is and what isn't if i can't understand it? I don't want to be using exploits.

but I want you to understand that not everybody is able to see things as soon as you. Not everybody is as talented and gifted as you. If you say "you have to understand why your players don't get up in transition", I simply don't know what exactly to do. I want to do it, believe me, but I don't know how. I watch a match and? What I have to see? No idea."
What you wrote here, in your response to Rashidi, is part of what i'm struggling with as well. How do i understand that? What am i looking for?
That's basically every guide i read or watch. I'm left with the question "Well, how do i identify that? How do i know that? What am i looking for? How do i find out what i'm looking for?".

In real life i wouldn't even have to look for it. I would instantly know, i would convey that message and the player(s) would follow it to the best of their abilities.
In FM it seems like i have to jump through several hoops in order to put one single reactionary message through to my players.

I find FM tactics counter-intuitive for me and not logical at all. Everything i do, that i did as a coach in real life, either is advised against or completely impossible in FM.
That's probably a part of the reason why i find FM more and more frustrating each year. I can't find the logic.

I've also gone through countless threads from other posters here about other tactics and strategies, trying to implement those ideas with my own ideas.
By the time the next FM comes out i'll be mediocre at best, with a deteriorating effect. Each time i try to go with one of my principles, "KISS", it all goes down the drain.


I'm glad coaching in real life isn't as complicated. I would've been screwed before my first match :D
Need to be said though that i'm not coaching these days.

Obviously i'm doing something wrong. But identifying and realising what that is, is, for me, getting harder and harder for each guide i read or watch.
That is basically down to me not understanding what the heck those guides really are trying to say. Even though they seemingly try to spell it out.

So reading about your problems, looping, is almost exactly like reading about my own FM experience these days.
But keep on trying, mate. Use all the help you get. I certainly will keep on trying until i get it right :)

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21 hours ago, roykela said:

Might possibly be because they're using exploits. On purpose or not. So, how do i know what an exploit is and what isn't if i can't understand it? I don't want to be using exploits.

To be honest, I know there are people using exploits, but I don't know if the best minds here are doing that. They will say they are not, but I don't understand what are they exactly doing so I don't know.

21 hours ago, roykela said:

In FM it seems like i have to jump through several hoops in order to put one single reactionary message through to my players.

This.

21 hours ago, roykela said:

I find FM tactics counter-intuitive for me and not logical at all. Everything i do, that i did as a coach in real life, either is advised against or completely impossible in FM

This.

21 hours ago, roykela said:

I can't find the logic.

This.

21 hours ago, roykela said:

I'm glad coaching in real life isn't as complicated

And this. At least in my real life experience.

But complaining leads us nowhere, so if we want to play the game we have to adapt.

I didn't have time today, but I'm working on a complete post which I think is going to be very useful if we find the answers to the questions raised. I hope tomorrow will be ready.

Edited by looping

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Adapting is the way, for sure.
I feel like i'm slowly coming to that aforementioned mediocracy now. Time will tell if i manage to improve beyond that or not.
I do like this thread as there is some healthy discussion and helpful insight in to how to approach FM tactics, in a way that has given me a few pointers
towards to how to adapt. I will continue to keep an eye on this thread. I do find it helpful.

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Post is not ready yet.

However, before I post anything, how is posible that this kind of tactics produce unbeatable teams?

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2017-tactics/361489-4-2-3-1-dybala-70-goals-season.html

It is totally against any principle (6 attack duties, tons or Ti that make no sense, overwriting mentality and shape, some of them even contradictory..). Any explanation for that?

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1 hour ago, looping said:

Post is not ready yet.

However, before I post anything, how is posible that this kind of tactics produce unbeatable teams?

http://www.fm-base.co.uk/forum/football-manager-2017-tactics/361489-4-2-3-1-dybala-70-goals-season.html

It is totally against any principle (6 attack duties, tons or Ti that make no sense, overwriting mentality and shape, some of them even contradictory..). Any explanation for that?

 

Ah, now you've caught what some people get frustrated with.

 

Those type of tactics do appear quite successful. The amount of team instructions seems illogical, the duty allocation should set off alarm bells, yet somehow the results work. I suspect that tactic you just linked works by compression and overloads. It compresses the space in the opposition half, pins them back preventing them from getting out with a combination of high pressure and (surprisingly) two relatively deep midfielders. 

 

It then completely overwhelms the middle of the park, with 4 players pushing through the centre (five if the DLP steps up) and with the two fullbacks on attack (auto-attacking = attack) theoretically keeps the opposition wide players from helping out as much as they might do. And because they're so narrow, so high and so creative, they have license to do whatever they need to ruin the opposition's day. Because the opposition can't get out of their own box/half, they end up getting hammered, particularly at Home games where they will be naturally more defensive against Arsenal anyway and thus can't break out.

 

If you look at their results, the opposition do score against them, but mostly in away games where they are more adventurous. The trouble is, the tactic may well be so overwhelming that it is irrelevant, particularly because Arsenal have a good squad. Worth noting, Newcastle beat them 0-1, I would assume that would be a classic case of "FM" with 1 shot, 1 goal?  Who knows? 

 

So yeah, it works on its sheer aggressiveness. 

 

I know looking at tactics like that can be very disappointing and disheartening for people trying to learn the game. *Especially* those who are coming on these forums and reading the guides, and maybe not having much luck. It can give the impression that making 'silly' tactics is better than trying to be more 'sensible' at times.

 

To be honest, the best thing you could probably do is ignore those sort of tactics. They are a 'bad habit', a relic of the plug and play era. They won't help you in understanding the basics of formation/tactic creation, at least, not as much as trying to figure things out yourself.

 

That said, if you're having trouble even after following all the guides, don't worry too much about it. You're not the only one. I still struggle to get the balance of my own tactics right. I still can never organise a midfield in a sea of midfielders! And I've been reading guides since CM2, which shows how little I've progressed! Haha. Honestly, just start basic, and go from there. Sometimes you'll have to stick it out and see where the journey goes. If that journey isn't fun though, -and I don't want to say this really-, then the best thing to do is to put the game down and not play it for a while. There's no point banging your head against a wall, and getting angry/upset over it. Come back to it later, after a week off or a month off, or whatever, when you clear your head. Sometimes you spot things you never thought of before, sometimes you don't. But it is most important that you are having fun, when it's not fun, it is time to stop.

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You say that when you watch matches you don't know exactly what to look for. Here you have an example:

 

R. Madrid v Sevilla_ Pitch Full.png

 

I am playing as Real Madrid against Sevilla. I started Defensive/ Highly Structured with a max d-line because I wanted to camp in their own half and build up patiently. At 0-0, in 65th minute, N'Zozi receives a ball in the middle of the pitch and with a simple pass over the top of my defence he leaves Vietto 1 on 1 with Navas and they score with their first shot on target. This image speaks a lot to me because I can see that we were not applying enough pressure on their midfielders. Highly structured shape in this scenario meant that my players were to far from opposition players to deny them space and Sevilla midfielder delivered without being hassled. My immediate reaction to this was changing to Control (because chasing a game you need a team willing to take more risks) and Fluid shape. The reason for changing to fluid was to reduce the gaps between my players and therefore to apply efficient pressure on the opposition and to deny any dangerous supply to their forwards. No supply, no balls over the top, right? :D I didn't judge this situation in terms of "why did Vietto score?". It was more difficult to miss actually. I judged it as "why did Vietto receive such a good pass and our team did nothing?". And with just 2 clicks everything was rectified.

 

Edited by vlad.condurache

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41 minutes ago, vlad.condurache said:

You say that when you watch matches you don't know exactly what to look for. Here you have an example:

 

R. Madrid v Sevilla_ Pitch Full.png

 

I am playing as Real Madrid against Sevilla. I started Defensive/ Highly Structured with a max d-line because I wanted to camp in their own half and build up patiently. At 0-0, in 65th minute, N'Zozi receives a ball in the middle of the pitch and with a simple pass over the top of my defence he leaves Vietto 1 on 1 with Navas and they score with their first shot on target. This image speaks a lot to me because I can see that we were not applying enough pressure on their midfielders. Highly structured shape in this scenario meant that my players were to far from opposition players to deny them space and Sevilla midfielder delivered without being hassled. My immediate reaction to this was changing to Control (because chasing a game you need a team willing to take more risks) and Fluid shape. The reason for changing to fluid was to reduce the gaps between my players and therefore to apply efficient pressure on the opposition and to deny any dangerous supply to their forwards. No supply, no balls over the top, right? :D I didn't judge this situation in terms of "why did Vietto score?". It was more difficult to miss actually. I judged it as "why did Vietto receive such a good pass and our team did nothing?". And with just 2 clicks everything was rectified.

 

Great example. No words.

The problem is the changes you made. Better said, the problem is how I would react... If I see balls over the top (hardly ever because I use a deep block):

Option a) Deeper def line

Option b) Use offside trap

Are these options wrong?

 

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That is stuff i tend to react to before the goal happens. Or, at least try to spot and react to :D
That's because if i would have to change the entire mentality AND team shape i should see signs of it way before the 65th minute.
Now, having said that; the opposition might have changed their style of play as well. Maybe several times and that's when you changed it at the perfect time
to a very suitable shape and mentality. I do struggle with that as well, but here's my problem with that.

If it's just that one time, in that particular game, it doesn't necessarily point towards an issue with the particular mentality and/or shape.
I would more likely be looking at a couple of indivdual players not doing their job.
And that's where it becomes tricky for me. In your example, changing the entire team's style fixed the problem.
If it's just an individual error (or a couple of individuals) why would i change the entire team?
I would then look at the particular individual(s) and find out why they weren't picking N'Zonzi up. AND why the central defender there is facing the completely wrong way.
Because what i see there is 1, 2 or even 3 players not doing what they should. Not the entire team.
And that's when it gets unnecessarily complicated for me.

I would've liked to tell those particular players to be more on their toes. Follow that attacker more closely. Close down that midfielder earlier.
What i might have to do then, based on what their role, dute and PIs are, is to change the entire role and duty for then to possibly add PIs.
That's one thing i don't find logical. Combine that with advice and guides and it'll all be just a messy soup, as one guide says this, another says that and people on the forum here
say conflicting things.
You changed the entire team's mentality and shape, which probably was correct due to everything getting sorted after you did that.
I would not have done that (purely based that on that one screenshot and what you wrote. Don't know the entire context). I would've looked at those individuals. Not the team.

That is just my way of interpreting what i would understand what the problem would be, and how i would solve it. I wouldn't find any logic at all in changing the entire team's mentality and shape.
Remember, i'm treating that as an isolated issue and not an ongoing issue throughout the entire game up to that point.

One thing i do spot which makes me scractch my head in frustration in my own game is; why oh why can't i instruct that left wide midfielder (or other players, for that matter) to stay narrower when defending?
Another thing is, why can't i tell specific players to drop deeper when defending?

All of the above is just a spontanious reaction to what i saw, without properly analysing it. As that is how i play my games. I don't pause anything to analyse. When i change my tactics the game is running in the background.
That's because that's what happens in real matches. Ref doesn't pause the game for me to make changes. Just the way i play my game :D

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1 hour ago, vlad.condurache said:

You say that when you watch matches you don't know exactly what to look for. Here you have an example:

 

R. Madrid v Sevilla_ Pitch Full.png

 

I am playing as Real Madrid against Sevilla. I started Defensive/ Highly Structured with a max d-line because I wanted to camp in their own half and build up patiently. At 0-0, in 65th minute, N'Zozi receives a ball in the middle of the pitch and with a simple pass over the top of my defence he leaves Vietto 1 on 1 with Navas and they score with their first shot on target. This image speaks a lot to me because I can see that we were not applying enough pressure on their midfielders. Highly structured shape in this scenario meant that my players were to far from opposition players to deny them space and Sevilla midfielder delivered without being hassled. My immediate reaction to this was changing to Control (because chasing a game you need a team willing to take more risks) and Fluid shape. The reason for changing to fluid was to reduce the gaps between my players and therefore to apply efficient pressure on the opposition and to deny any dangerous supply to their forwards. No supply, no balls over the top, right? :D I didn't judge this situation in terms of "why did Vietto score?". It was more difficult to miss actually. I judged it as "why did Vietto receive such a good pass and our team did nothing?". And with just 2 clicks everything was rectified.

 

I've noticed that maybe:

c.png

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1 minute ago, vlad.condurache said:

Actually Sevilla play in white. I was the other team.

:Dahahahaha ok...i was thinking u were the white :) sorry 

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2 hours ago, looping said:

Great example. No words.

The problem is the changes you made. Better said, the problem is how I would react... If I see balls over the top (hardly ever because I use a deep block):

Option a) Deeper def line

Option b) Use offside trap

Are these options wrong?

 

if u are deeper an offside trap is not a good idea :)

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3 hours ago, looping said:

Great example. No words.

The problem is the changes you made. Better said, the problem is how I would react... If I see balls over the top (hardly ever because I use a deep block):

Option a) Deeper def line

Option b) Use offside trap

Are these options wrong?

 

Any of the options a or b would be ok. It depends on how you want your team to block the opposition and the risks you're willing to take. For me the high defensive line is a worthy risk to take as long as I cut off the supply  of their midfielders. There is one trick that I take into consideration about the d-line. If their forward receives a ball and my defenders have to track back a lot, it means I'm staying to high. If my defenders have to step forward, it means I'm too deep. The thing with FM and football generally speaking is that everything is a chain of reactions. When you lose games you have to take into consideration multiple facts and ask yourself questions. Did your team perform as you wanted and lost just because the other team had way more quality? Do you have balance in your system? Do you have the right players in the right roles? Unfortunately the life of a manager is full of questions and headaches :seagull: I know it's hard and too damn annoying at times but with patience you'll nail this. Hope I don't sound superior or something like that. That's not my intention :)

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2 hours ago, Shameless1 said:

that image os before or after u changed something?

That's the caption from when they scored against me. The midfielder with the ball launches the striker with a ball over the top and bags it into the net.

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From 4-4-2 to 4-2-3-1

My opening post describes a classic 442. 

Over the last years, the vast majority of clubs  have  adopted 4-2-3-1 formation instead of the classic 4-4-2 because it has proven to be an easier formation to adapt and suit players. In modern football, the traditional 442 is rarely used. This is down to the emergence of specialist defensive midfielders and a number 10 playing behind a lone striker, which many managers like to utilise in modern football.

The formation is fairly versatile too. The two wide players could push further forward to create a 4-3-3 or they could drop deeper to create a 4-4-1-1 (a variation of the 4-4-2). This flexibility means that teams using this formation can adapt to situations that arise in a game and this is a great asset to have.

A great strength of this formation is having 3 attacking midfielders who have plenty of license to push forward and attack due to the stability of the two man midfield. With the two man midfield, it also means that the wide players have plenty of freedom to move across the line and interchange positions with one another.

Issues arise if the opposition have top quality wingers. Due to the wide attackers playing almost as wingers, the full-back will be left in a 1 v 1 situation which may even turn into a 2 v 1 situation if the winger is supported by the full-back on his side, the striker or a midfielder close by.

This formation’s biggest asset is that it is finely balanced between attack and defence, and simple changes in personnel can make a big difference. It allows for control in midfield and numbers in attack, and gives the 4 main attacking players and the full-back license to go forward due to the 2 midfielders who can cover spaces that could otherwise be exposed. 

 

This is the first reason why I want to use a 4-2-3-1. The second reason is that in fm strikers don't drop deep to defend and I want 9 players (+gk) defending (or at least, helping to some extent).

So, how I want to play?

abMiJXlahR.png
Draw your soccer tactics with this11.com

 

Goalie
 Again, just a plain old fashioned 'keeper. No need for sweeper keepers as I don't plan on playing with a particularly high line.

Full-backs
The modern full-back generally likes to get forward as often as possible, yet with many teams now preferring to play with wide men that either dribble and cut inside or drift into central areas, it can seem as though their importance in attack has come to overshadow their duties in defence. Rather than surprising opponents on the overlap, managers now rely on their full-backs as the new standard position for providing the width to stretch teams and even directly threaten the box from wide positions with more traditional wingers tied up with other responsibilities away from the flanks. Leaving your flanks exposed on the counter attack is a problem that many teams try and plan to avoid. Two holding midfielders play a vital role, especially during transition play, defending counter-attacks when the full-backs are caught high up the pitch.  
Today's wing-backs are fast, agile, confident with the ball and often join the attacking play in a quick-witted and clever manner. A very good technical education is important for every position today. In this system, the wing-backs are often faced with the difficult problem that they cannot be immediately supported by their fellow teammates; running paths are often very long for defensive players. For this reason, the wing-backs have to be strong tacklers that are capable of delaying the opponent's attack.

Centre Backs
Nothing fancy here. They just need to defend and pass the ball to the keeper, fullbacks or midfield. No need for risk taking ball playing defenders or a stopper/cover combination.

Central Midfielders
The double pivot in the middle of the pitch is now one of the most important partnerships  tactically speaking. Naturally you would want one ball-winning midfielder, who sits in front of the defence alongside a more adventurous partner. This is an area where teams show the most variation and make use of the personnel available to them. All the way  you can see this tackler-passer partnership, with a lot of the tacklers providing a solid base for starting attacks.  
Our "sixes" need to possess a high degree of footballing intelligence and the ability to "read" a game. The "double six" is often interpreted in the following way as part of this system of play: one of the "sixes" is more offensively oriented, is often unmarked in the midfield and thus can be passed to, additionally takes care of the playmaking and secures the rear space behind number 10 if his team is in possession of the ball. The second "six" is mostly responsible for defensive tasks.
In the defensive, the "sixes" may easily form triangles with two players of the "four back" on their sides and thus heavily attack the opposing player in possession of the ball. Gaps for possible passing routes are automatically closed in the process and if possession of the ball is won, it is easy to find access to the wing players in the midfield. However, the running paths are often very long as described above and it is often hard to support the wing-backs. 
For the most defensive central midfielder, His role is to stop any attacks before they become dangerous by cutting out passing lines, man marking the opposition’s number 10 and winning the ball back in general. Once the team is in possession his role is to play the simple ball and to not lose possession. The most attacking must begin attacks and also create chances for his teammates

Wingers
They have a very important role with this formation. Their role is to provide width to the team and supply crosses/through balls to the striker whilst also being a goal threat. In order to be successful here they need to be competent in dribbling, shooting and crossing. One of the most important attributes is being able to cross the ball successfully; when they get into the wide areas they need to be able to deliver quality into the box for the rest of the team attack. They also need to be athletic in order to get back and support their full-back. The wide midfielders need to have an understanding with the nº10 in order to get into dangerous positions.
Sometimes, one of the wide players will  play slightly further in field than the winger on the opposite side.  By drifting in-field, the full-back on that side will be expected to provide the width and an inside forward will often be played on the opposite side to his strongest foot which will allow him to be on is favoured side more often (left footed player playing on the right, right footed playing on the left).

Nº 10
It’s the role that everyone wants to play but there is only one space per team for a true No. 10. Back in the days of 4-4-2, many centre-forwards operated in a deeper position, often enjoying the rewards of the space they could create for themselves by splitting away from the standard, side-by-side, two-man striker partnerships of the past. Now,  the key role for the CAM is to link the team together, especially providing the ball to both the wingers and the striker in dangerous positions. Key attributes for this position are creativity, shooting and passing and if they can provide goals from midfield then it is an added bonus.
Number 10 constitutes a real "playmaker",  he is the enganche, the hook, the trequartista sometimes too, the second striker. It depends on the context and also country we’re in  but whatever the scenario he No 10 faces and plays towards the opponent's goal looking to play teammates in with slide rule passes, chipping in with set piece goals and shots from distance and sometimes adding mazy runs and prodigious skills to the mix.

Striker
One player in the offense sounds like a typical center forward who not only has to be tall and good at heading but also capable of achieving successful tackles. 
The lone striker has become one of the most important and unique roles in football. If the old idea was for a big man, little man partnership to lead the line in a two, today managers look for strikers ideally able to play the role of both the target man and the poacher. Clubs are always on the look out for a striker who can play the solo role naturally; a player who can hold up the ball, link play, run in behind, create chances, beat players, offer an aerial threat and, of course, put the ball in the back of the net...
When teams are unable to find a ‘complete’ prospect to lead the line, they tend to go for more specialised strikers who can contribute to a key aspect of their team’s playing style.
 

Roles and duties
The purpose is to translate what has been exposed above into roles and duties.

Goalie
Gk-de. Already covered

Full-backs
I'll use wb (su), because we need a full-back who generally likes to get forward as often as possible but I don't want to leave my flanks exposed on the counter attack.

Centre Backs
Cd (de). Already covered.

Central Midfielders
Tackler-passer partnership. Cm (de) and dlp (su).

Wingers
Here comes one of the critical decisions. The first idea is to place my wingers to the am strata but in fm terms, this would result in a top heavy attacking formation and this is not my (initial) intention, so I'll drop them to midfield strata. W-at role.

Nº 10
Playmaker, link the team together,  the hook. Trequartista-at

Striker
A player who can hold up the ball, link play, run in behind, create chances, beat players, offer an aerial threat and, of course, put the ball in the back of the net... Cf-at

 

Shape and mentality
The formation is fairly versatile  so I can play any football style. To be honest, I don't want to decide it until I know the team and players I'll have, so I'll stay on Standard/Flexible, which will allow me to adapt to whatever circumstances (To some extent, I'm not defining a style of play yet. I have the roles and duties, which are crucial, but I can adjust it via shape, mentality and Team Instructions)

Team Instructions
For the same reason, no team instructions.

Player Instructions
I'm not defining (to some extent) a style of play, but I know what I want my players to do. Or better said, I know what I don't want my players to do. Fot that reason, I'll use the following PI:

Goalie
Goalies can waste silly amounts of possession by just hoofing it up the pitch. I tell him to:

- Distribute to Centre Backs

- Roll It Out

- Slow Pace Down

Tactic

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Draw your soccer tactics with this11.com

 

Potential issues
- I'm using 4 attack duties, which can be too much

- I'm using two playmakers

- Wingbacks and wingers may stay both wide, in the same space

- Winbacks have PI get further forward, which can result on leaving huge gaps behind.

- I have 2 wingbacks and 2 wingers, but only 1 striker. Am I crossing to nobody?

 

Questions
I'd like you to answer the following questions:

- Are the choosen roles and duties right? Do they fit with the theory exposed? Are they balanced?

- Do you see any inconsistency, contradiction or mistake?

- What style of football would you play? 

- Would you use a Structured or fluid shape?

- Would you use a Control or Counter mentality

- Would you add any PI?

- Which TI would you add?

- Any other idea?

 

After I receive the feedback expected, I'll write down another post, adjusting whatever is raised and defining style of play, with mentality, shape and TI. Once this is done, we'll all agree we'll have a balanced tactic so we'll only need to fit the right players in the right positions.

Thanks for reading.

 

Edited by looping

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4 hours ago, looping said:

 

This is the first reason why I want to use a 4-2-3-1. The second reason is that in fm strikers don't drop deep to defend and I want 9 players (+gk) defending (or at least, helping to some extent).

 

They do drop back to defend. You just haven't figured out how to do it yet. I can make both my strikers in a 442 defend around the midway line, and sometimes they will be as deep as the defending third

4 hours ago, looping said:

 

 

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16 hours ago, Rashidi said:

 

They do drop back to defend. You just haven't figured out how to do it yet. I can make both my strikers in a 442 defend around the midway line, and sometimes they will be as deep as the defending third

 

That's a good point and it is weird that nobody raised it before, specially because I spent a good number of posts to make one of my strikers contribute more on defending when I was outnumbered in midfield with my 442.

Anyway, even if that is posible and I haven't figured out how to do it yet, I explained other reasons why to use a 4231 instead a 442 so let's focus on this new tactic 4231.

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If I may. I would like to explain a small issue that I think you need to take a look at ---- the Wing Back choice. I can understand that one might want to use a Wing Back when you have three center defenders - but using them with only two Center Backs will leave your team very vulnerable. The Wing Back has the 'move forward more' instruction so chances they get caught out of position will be a lot higher and, in my opinion, pretty unnecessary. I might go with a Wing Back in a 4 man defense if I were playing Attack Strategy - but in reality, the Full Back has more of the instructions that suit a 4 man defense. I see a lot of people make the Wing Back choice in a 4 man defense and I am not convinced this is the best solution...

 

Normally to have my tactics working better, what I do is that in the Defensive Mentality Strategies (Defend & Contain) usually I would have the Full Backs running forward less (defend duty) - in the Normal Mentality Strategies (Counter, Standard & Control) have them on sometimes (Support Duty) - and in the Attacking Mentality Strategies (Attack & Overload) have them getting forward more often (Attack Duty). This position is one of the areas that I use to get the Duty roles more coherent with the overall tactical structure that in turn makes the tactic more sound - in my experience...

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I'm in the same boat as you @looping. I just couldn't make my tactics work in this years fm. I wanted to play Arsenal with Özil at the 10 behind a strike, but I couldn't make it work (because I suck as manager and don't have understanding of FM at all). I was also sacked twice in December. 

Now I did put a Midfielder in front of the defense (DLP-D) and put Özil together with a cm(s) in central midfield instead of attacking midfield (a 4-1-4-1). I know this isn't the change you want, but it kinda solved everything for me. For me it feels like you just have to use some principles (more pressing, more midfielders) this year. Without them you will just loose. 

 

And I can fully understand what you meant by "don't know how to get your visions translated into the game". It's the same for me. 

Edited by gandrasch

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