Learning how to play

[BojanVu]

47 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

For conte is alonso and the other nigerian player  that  makes the differences

Bacause they are runners and have an high workrate  and teamwork. 

He transformed azpiliqueta from full back to a central defender.

 

Chelsea does not leave spaces to play is pretty aggressive and plays short/mixed pass.

But  tell me how can a full  back with  low crosses quality and low dribbling  skills attack ?

 Have pezzella in palermo and  always he loose the ball trying to dribble.

So what  u think  about?

 

Because Pezzella is defensive full back and he can not playing as WBa. He is poor Full back and i would sold him because i not playing with defensive back.  For example i bought Ounas from Girondis and put him on CWBa training and he become a maestral back. You can do every what want....

[Shameless1]

1 hour ago, BojanVu said:

About tactic all is important. Look at Chelsea . Conte specific tactic from Juventus to Chelsea. Van Gaal last year was not successful with tactics because he hasn't players like Matic and Kante. In croatia we calling that players '' Radilice'' (crankshaft) on the pitch

About 4231 is same things...

This is how I playing in Milan. In first season with small buget i won Seria A.

In second season I bought some players and doing very well.

 

 

 

[Shameless1]

Ok @looping you're right...so let's us see!

[Shameless1]

Ok @looping you're right...so let's us see!

[herne79]

As Looping says, please stay on topic.

[looping]

Finally, I had time today to read and watch.

First of all, I'm actually lost for words to thank you and specially @Draktor for your wonderful work. 

@Draktor, I have to say english is not my language so I missed some of your words. However, I think I get the idea: this is about having a decent initial tactic and then, adapting to circumstances, changing shape and mentality. I understand the mentality thing, not at all about the shape. What I want to do now is try it for real: play some matches and apply changes during it to see how it goes. Easy to say, not that easy to do. Once I finish this post I will start playing some games and will show you how I'm playing with mentality and shape.

Am I right?

@Rashidi, I'm pleasantly surprised by your constructive contribution.

On 13/11/2016 at 09:40, Rashidi said:

Players who do everything aren't WM, these players tend to be more...balanced. You seem to want them to do "everything possible". I just don't think you can have everything, because you are asking for a spread of attributes that you simply won't find in the game for one specific player, and you want it for this entire group. The question you should ask yourself is how do I get them to do what I want with what I have. If your players have low teamwork and work rate, you can kiss this goodbye. So look at the attributes first. Then once you know the kind of players you have then you begin to identify whether they have the skill to perform.

If you look at Klopp's Liverpool, its no wonder that his team covers the most yardage in the game now. If you want to do something similar then you need to focus on prioritising attributes then deciding if you have the right players for the job.

I know it's almost imposible to do everything, but it's posible to have a more balanced role. A winger is only  about running, dribbling and crossing. A WP is probably the opposite. A Wm-at with no PI is more balanced so will do a variety of things. He will cut inside sometimes and others will run wide. At least is what I expect.

On 13/11/2016 at 09:40, Rashidi said:

Why? You are limiting yourself. There is absolutely no need to discard mentality. In fact when you do, you are limiting your team itself. When you choose to sit on one mentality you are forcing your side to approach the game on one mindset regardless of change. For example, your team could be a goal down, would your team have any urgency to come back? No. Your team will change its posture if you decide to make changes. 

The idea is to create a basic tactic, so I don't want to go to an extreme scale to start. During the game I have no problem on changing mentality, shape and even roles and duties. In fact, this is exactly what I'm trying to learn and I hope with @Draktor  video something clicks.

What I'm not going to is to change my initial idea. I can tweak it, this is fine and understandable, but I won't turn it upside down. I can go attacking (mentality) and fluid shape, I can use a Poacher or and Advanced forward, even a DLF in attack duty, but I won't play with a Wide Playmaker or a trequartista lone striker. I can slightly change my formation, for instance using a winger and an IF in AM strata, but I won't play with three at back. At least, using this tactic. I accept to have other tactics to use, but I still have to develop them. Now I'm focused on my 4411.

On 13/11/2016 at 09:40, Rashidi said:

When your players are not closing down, thats a function of their defensive line and how far they are from their "trigger point". When you are playing any game, you should be looking to identify these trigger zones, and these invariably are a function of mentality and defensive line. To this day I HAVE NEVER USED the closing down slider in the TI, there is absolutely no need to mess with it.

I ticked closed down more not because the trigger point was too low but because my players were too contemplative once the opponent crossed the trigger point. I don't know how to explain it. I don't want to close down higher up the pitch, I want to close down more when closing down more. I don't want them to start closing down before, I want more intensity in closing down. It's not about where you start yo close down. It is about how much you close down.

On 13/11/2016 at 09:40, Rashidi said:

Default is fine. The CD is balanced well already, the only reason they will go in early is if your midfielders are poor. In other words if you see them leave their lines to soon, then its the MC who you need to focus on. Why are they not picking the players up in time?

My cm are, by far, my best players. They are not creative, one of them is a defensive beast (+15 tackling, marking, positioning, anticipation, determination, work rate, team work...) and other is quite balanced but better at defending. I can't believe this is a problem with my CM, they are not poor.

On 13/11/2016 at 09:40, Rashidi said:

That shout is dangerous. A FB will ALWAYS exploit space on support, if there is space to exploit, but when you use that shout you are telling them proactively to have a higher starting position which will not help with their "support behind the ball' thing you want them to do.

I don't see my fb(su) exploiting space available, I thought due to mentality and shape. Not even using wb(su), they are not making enough forward runs. They stay back. I'm not sure about PI get further forward, but I don't know what else to do. I don't like how fb(at) or wb(at) behaves, they are as high as my strikers constantly.

 

I've changed the following:

Make your football formation with this11.com

PI changes:

- AM-at. dribble more, more risky passes, move into channels, roam from position. Basically, I have a trequartista but contributing more defensively (no ease off tackles close down much less).

I moved my amc to the right and my striker to the left so they have more space and involve them more in play (both in the middle where almost occupying the same space, resulting on my striker disconnected or my amc bypassed by long passes)

The rest is the same than before.

I'm going to play some matches and keep you updated.

[looping]

I've played 3 matches and I lost all 3. In fact, I've been destroyed. Imposible to defend, they create a lot of chances no matter what I do. Even weak opponents. I start with counter mentality. They score in the 10 first minutes. I go to control. I have no possession. They score the second. No idea what to do.

I score first. They go attacking. I stay on counter. They create chances. More chances. I go to defensive.They score. No idea what to do. They score. I go to control. They score. No idea what to do.

My players all the time hoof the ball to nobody. I told them to play out the defense but all they do is to hoof the ball. They have passing options but they decide to hoof the ball or cross into own box.

@Draktor I knew this was going to happen. You change mentality and score. I change mentality and it is even worse (if posible).

I don't know what to do. No idea. I watch the match and I'd say is my players fault but they are not that bad. As usual, no idea, literally, no idea.

 

 

[MHovel]

@looping in terms of results, I'm facing the same problem like you in FM17, but the difference between me and you is that I'm always playing with teams such as Bournemouth or other team that the media prediction is between 17-20, teams who predicted to struggle in the league.

 

I just gave up atleast for now with FM17 and moved back to 16 with database updates.

There i tend to do way much better.

I have no idea what is going on with 17 release, i gave up because in one game i won 3-1 against middlesbough at home and the next game lost 6-1 to hull city away, 0 proportion.

Always when i lose in such margain, the goals between each are very close to each other. (Maybe if you still can, provide a screenshot if you had the same scenario i was facing when you have been destroyed)

i.e: for me, goals scored in 30 minutes of the game and 2 more goals scored in 36 and 40 and the next goal scored before half time 46.

4-0 at half time, shocking defending from my side.

For me,  going back to 16 is better option, but i will try tomorrow 1 last thing on fm17 and if i wont succeed i will just skip this version or gonna wait for some fixes if there will be any.

I really hope for you that you gonna find out the problems, me, like you didnt gave up untill yesterday.

[thomas_e]

Both your wingers, your AM and poacher are playing with an attack duty. I would say, except rare cases that playing with those instructions is not going to work. Same goes for the poacher as a lone striker as he gets isolated up front. This creates a highly predictable side that is very one-dimensional when attacking that is easy to defend against. 

A lone poacher works with a AM on support duty behind, but even then i would recommend the advanced forward role. 

[Shameless1]

8 hours ago, MHovel said:

@looping in terms of results, I'm facing the same problem like you in FM17, but the difference between me and you is that I'm always playing with teams such as Bournemouth or other team that the media prediction is between 17-20, teams who predicted to struggle in the league.

 

I just gave up atleast for now with FM17 and moved back to 16 with database updates.

There i tend to do way much better.

I have no idea what is going on with 17 release, i gave up because in one game i won 3-1 against middlesbough at home and the next game lost 6-1 to hull city away, 0 proportion.

Always when i lose in such margain, the goals between each are very close to each other. (Maybe if you still can, provide a screenshot if you had the same scenario i was facing when you have been destroyed)

i.e: for me, goals scored in 30 minutes of the game and 2 more goals scored in 36 and 40 and the next goal scored before half time 46.

4-0 at half time, shocking defending from my side.

For me,  going back to 16 is better option, but i will try tomorrow 1 last thing on fm17 and if i wont succeed i will just skip this version or gonna wait for some fixes if there will be any.

I really hope for you that you gonna find out the problems, me, like you didnt gave up untill yesterday.

Sorry but i'm not afree with you. This match engine is pretty much better then last year where to make a goal you must shoot 30 times cause of shot to the post and so on. This time no. This time it's to adrees the tactic to balance well the morale and so on. I've also problems and the problem is, have i really tried to understand why i take goals? 

If my defensive line is exposed maybe i shoud see why? i the shoot rather pass a ball i should see why and try to addrees this?

 

If i try always the same solution waiting for different result it's not a good idea. 

 

I have also problem and u can also see on the thread i'v been opened. 

I know it's frustrating but if there are people that get good result with poor team this mean they see better than us and thei are more logicval in decision than us. SO we need to understand the principles to get the pont i think.

 

 

[Shameless1]

8 hours ago, thomas_e said:

Both your wingers, your AM and poacher are playing with an attack duty. I would say, except rare cases that playing with those instructions is not going to work. Same goes for the poacher as a lone striker as he gets isolated up front. This creates a highly predictable side that is very one-dimensional when attacking that is easy to defend against. 

A lone poacher works with a AM on support duty behind, but even then i would recommend the advanced forward role. 

Or like i have now....an am on attack duty with a complete forward on support duty.

 

The point his: 

 

1) To attack we need space .

 

2) to create space we need movement without the ball.

So maybe for example one player go wider another one cut inside another one drop depper another one go in support of the player that is keeping the ball.

Ok having this in mind we should select the correct duty/role for each player and our tactical setting. 

Simple to say difficult to do. But don't get up! 

 

#nevergiveup!

 

 

 

 

 

 

[shadster]

14 hours ago, looping said:

I've played 3 matches and I lost all 3. In fact, I've been destroyed. Imposible to defend, they create a lot of chances no matter what I do. Even weak opponents. I start with counter mentality. They score in the 10 first minutes. I go to control. I have no possession. They score the second. No idea what to do.

I score first. They go attacking. I stay on counter. They create chances. More chances. I go to defensive.They score. No idea what to do. They score. I go to control. They score. No idea what to do.

My players all the time hoof the ball to nobody. I told them to play out the defense but all they do is to hoof the ball. They have passing options but they decide to hoof the ball or cross into own box.

@Draktor I knew this was going to happen. You change mentality and score. I change mentality and it is even worse (if posible).

I don't know what to do. No idea. I watch the match and I'd say is my players fault but they are not that bad. As usual, no idea, literally, no idea.

 

 

I'm feeling the same way.. I think with this and other threads I'm understanding more the game, but still... I feel if I choosed to manage smaller teams, I would have the exact same results you have. Because, managing Benfica, at times my team is completely dominated at home against really really small teams, like I'm playing on attack or control, and they get not only more shots on goal, but way more possession. And I think, even the worst manager in the history of football with the players that benfica have, against such poor teams, they could play bad, but they still would dominate the game, have possession... So I gave up on playing with Benfica, because I simply cannot make a team that plays even close to reality. Today I will start a game with Barcelona, If I can't get to make the team to play well, I will wait until FM18. And hopefully somebody will help you with the changes of shape/mentality during games, because I strugle a lot to get them right as well.

[Shameless1]

Why do u give up?

[shadster]

Me? Only gave up on Benfica save, because people say that I have a balanced tactic and for example, playing home against a small team like Feirense, or Tondela. I start the game on control/flexible. They start the game with a defensive formation, yet they control the game. I push the defensive line up, yet they control the game and have more shots. I change to attack/fluid, and I can't see changes on the control of the game.. It's not like I'm controlling the game, but not making much to score. And when I'm seeing Rashidis videos, and others, I can see when they change Shape/mentality, he way their team behaves, changes as well. I will start a game with Barcelona, start with a basic tactic, no TI's, and go from there, hope that this way I can finally understand this game.

But this is looping thread and I apologise to him and moderators.

[Rashidi]

4 minutes ago, shadster said:

 I will start a game with Barcelona, start with a basic tactic, no TI's, and go from there, hope that this way I can finally understand this game.

 

Good way to learn. if you have any preconceived notions, throw them out. Look at the game and keep an open mindset. If you use one of the best teams in the world, its actually easier to learn the game, if you don't try and overreach. For example.

You could make any system work with Barca, but why not a 4411, really basic system. You can start with some TI's simple ones, like work ball into box and play out of defence, because we know what both do. And thats where you stop. Now take the same tactic, and observe the transitions. And this is where everyone I speak to have issues. You need to spot what your support players are doing, and this takes practice and pretty damn good peripheral vision.  You need to know if your fullbacks are making themselves available, you need to understand what is it about your system thats encouraging them to INTERCEPT the play. I rather see interceptions than tackles. Intercepts means that the other team can't even build play.

Whenever people tell me they have world class central midfielders and that they should be expecting them to perform well, that's when I usually get worried. The game is about the interactions between various elements. If your midfielders are not snuffing out play, then why is that happening? It can never be a function of closing down alone. NEVER. It's always a function of several factors. As a manager your job is to reduce the variables. Good luck and by all means start your own thread.

[looping]

30 minutes ago, Rashidi said:

You need to spot what your support players are doing, and this takes practice and pretty damn good peripheral vision.

In transition players run to their attacking/defensive position. What else can they do?

[looping]

THis tactic is completely against my principles,I hate it and whatever the results I'm not going to use it, BUT:

10 hours ago, Shameless1 said:

1) To attack we need space .

 

2) to create space we need movement without the ball.

So maybe for example one player go wider another one cut inside another one drop depper another one go in support of the player that is keeping the ball.

 

Result (I don't need any more)

 

Whatever I do I lose. Doesn't matter what I do, the result is always always always a complete disaster.

Out of ideas.

[Shameless1]

18 minutes ago, looping said:

THis tactic is completely against my principles,I hate it and whatever the results I'm not going to use it, BUT:

 

Result (I don't need any more)

 

Whatever I do I lose. Doesn't matter what I do, the result is always always always a complete disaster.

Out of ideas.

I have also problem and get frustrated the point is to understand how to build a consistent tactic that work good, looking at our players.

I think we need  to learn how to address mistakes because if other people get results it means that is possible, so we have to understad why what we have in mind does not work. I know it would be simple if we could draw the movements in the various phases of the game like  defensive transition, building up  and offensive transitions but it's not possible so we need to learn how to address problems we have. Get a look on my thread.

 

[looping]

16 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

I have also problem and get frustrated the point is to understand how to build a consistent tactic that work good, looking at our players.

I think we need  to learn how to address mistakes because if other people get results it means that is possible, so we have to understad why what we have in mind does not work. I know it would be simple if we could draw the movements in the various phases of the game like  defensive transition, building up  and offensive transitions but it's not possible so we need to learn how to address problems we have. Get a look on my thread.

 

Yes, for sure. But it's been one year for me. I didn't play a real save with fm16 (sacked or nearby) and it seems the same with fm17.

I think my problem is that I completely disagree with the vision inserted in fm. I think football is much more simple than that. The manager's influence is overpowered IMO. Tactics are a very little part of what happens on the pitch (IMO weather conditions and luck are more important, for instance). But that's what we have: adapt or give up.

[NoTekkersRB]

5 minutes ago, looping said:

I think my problem is that I completely disagree with the vision inserted in fm. I think football is much more simple than that. The manager's influence is overpowered IMO. Tactics are a very little part of what happens on the pitch (IMO weather conditions and luck are more important, for instance). But that's what we have: adapt or give up.

 

Are you relating that to the game or football in real life? 

[looping]

1 minute ago, NoTekkersRB said:

 

Are you relating that to the game or football in real life? 

Real life.

[Shameless1]

I'm not agree with you looping.

 

Quality players is the first. But first of all professionalism is the first thing.

Think about a team made by 11 cassano or balotelli.

The, think about a team made by 11 materazzi.

Materazzi was not a great defender but he had:

determination, bravery, aggression, concentration, decision leadreship and team work and he was professional.

He was not great in controll ball, he was not fast. He was aggressive. You or the ball. So mental quality are first things in a team, then one or two players like cassano or balotelli it's ok but not more.

Talking about tactic:

 

Look at conte with chelsea. He let's play alonso and moses. Willian out, fabregas out, oscar out. Think, why? His way to play needs a lot of players with teamwork and work rate, like alonso and also diego costa for example.

 

 

Look at barca with guardiola and barca with l.enrique they are always great players but now barca is less possession ball oriented and more direct.

Look at man city with guardiola now and  with pellegrini. The way to play is different and toure' is out.

 

In italy ac roma with spalletti now plays different from the way they played with rudi garcia, so yes the tactic is important.

 

Look at mourinho with inter milan when they won the champions league in 2010. Barca was stronger. They cannot think to play face to face with them. So extraordinary difensive phase and really great counter attack  with milito and direct pass. They played a low defensive line, structured shape (not like in fm terms) i mean every one were closer and  sticked in his position, low pressing and then...bump direct pass playing a 4231 against the 4-3-3 that barca played.

 

[NoTekkersRB]

22 minutes ago, looping said:

Real life.

You genuinely believe tactics play little part in a football match in comparison to luck, pitch conditions?

I'm sure many would agree that tactics are wholly important in football. I think you're underestimating the level of influence tactics have on games. I'm currently watching England play Spain and I've noticed that when England are trying to play out of from defence, Spain are cutting out all the passing lanes forcing England into long balls and the result is that England immediately lose possession from a hopeful long kick. Is that a tactical decision by the manager? That to me seems tactical and is quite important part of the way Spain are attempting to stop England gain possession. 

I know it's very frustrating, believe me I know how frustrating it is when you're team doesn't play the way you want it to.

 

[Shameless1]

1 minute ago, NoTekkersRB said:

You genuinely believe tactics play little part in a football match in comparison to luck, pitch conditions?

I'm sure many would agree that tactics are wholly important in football. I think you're underestimating the level of influence tactics have on games. I'm currently watching England play Spain and I've noticed that when England are trying to play out of from defence, Spain are cutting out all the passing lanes forcing England into long balls and the result is that England immediately lose possession from a hopeful long kick. Is that a tactical decision by the manager? That to me seems tactical and is quite important part of the way Spain are attempting to stop England gain possession. 

 

yes it is and they have the right players with the right attributes to do this.

[looping]

10 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

Quality players is the first. But first of all professionalism is the first thing.

Think about a team made by 11 cassano or balotelli.

The, think about a team made by 11 materazzi.

Materazzi was not a great defender but he had:

determination, bravery, aggression, concentration, decision leadreship and team work and he was professional.

He was not great in controll ball, he was not fast. He was aggressive. You or the ball. So mental quality are first things in a team, then one or two players like cassano or balotelli it's ok but not more.

Totally agree. 

10 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

Look at conte with chelsea. He let's play alonso and moses. Willian out, fabregas out, oscar out. Think, why? His way to play needs a lot of players with teamwork and work rate, like alonso and also diego costa for example.

Willian and Fabregar and not football players no longer. Ex players in my opinion.

Still talking about players. Of course player affect how the team plays. Nothing about tactic yet.

11 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

Look at barca with guardiola and barca with l.enrique they are always great players but now barca is less possession ball oriented and more direct.

Look at man city with guardiola now and  with pellegrini. The way to play is different and toure' is out.

Luis Enrique doesn't have Xavi and has Neymar. Xavi retains possession, dictates tempo and slows down tempo. Nothing about tactics yet. 

12 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

Look at man city with guardiola now and  with pellegrini. The way to play is different and toure' is out.

I can't stand Guardiola so I'd better say nothing.

13 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

In italy ac roma with spalletti now plays different from the way they played with rudi garcia, so yes the tactic is important.

No idea how Roma plays.

14 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

Look at mourinho with inter milan when they won the champions league in 2010. Barca was stronger. They cannot think to play face to face with them. So extraordinary difensive phase and really great counter attack  with milito and direct pass. They played a low defensive line, structured shape (not like in fm terms) i mean every one were closer and  sticked in his position, low pressing and then...bump direct pass playing a 4231 against the 4-3-3 that barca played.

 This is a rare case where tactics were really important, but try to do the same in fm ;). Basically, Mourinho said everybody (literally) behind the ball. Eto'o Fullback. Possession was like 85-15. I'm talking after red card to Motta. I was in Camp Nou that day (I support Barça) and I remember perfectly what happened. And we all know what happened but Zlatan said best. If you try this in fm... 

 

When I say tactics are not important I mean, for exemple. You are Madrid and your double pivot is Modric and Kross. If you replace Kroos for Casemiro you haven't changed your tactic, you have changed your players. Another exemple. Your striker is Defoe (quick of the ball). On the bench, you have Crouch. You replace Defoe for Crouch. Your team will play different but you didn't change the tactic, you changed your players!

This is OT, but I so interesting I had to answer. I apologize to myself for not keeping on topic

 

 

 

[looping]

10 minutes ago, NoTekkersRB said:

You genuinely believe tactics play little part in a football match in comparison to luck, pitch conditions?

I'm sure many would agree that tactics are wholly important in football. I think you're underestimating the level of influence tactics have on games. I'm currently watching England play Spain and I've noticed that when England are trying to play out of from defence, Spain are cutting out all the passing lanes forcing England into long balls and the result is that England immediately lose possession from a hopeful long kick. Is that a tactical decision by the manager? That to me seems tactical and is quite important part of the way Spain are attempting to stop England gain possession. 

I know it's very frustrating, believe me I know how frustrating it is when you're team doesn't play the way you want it to.

 

No, this is not a tactical decision. You are losing, you have to score, you close down higher. There is no decision when there is no choice.

[looping]

8 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

yes it is and they have the right players with the right attributes to do this.

EXACTLY. If you have a Ball playing defender you will play out the defense naturally! You don't need to say this to your players, they do it because they can. 

[NoTekkersRB]

Just now, looping said:

No, this is not a tactical decision. You are losing, you have to score, you close down higher. There is no decision when there is no choice.

They started the match off that way before England scored. And it is a popular tactic.

Changing of players doesn't just simply mean the player will play different, tactics would be discussed in training matches by the manager with the team before hand. There is a reason why managers hold tactical training, a reason why they have huge dossiers on the opposition. They use tactics to exploit the weaknesses of the opposition and play to their own strengths.

Do you believe managers send out their players on a pitch and just say, play 442, do what you want?

[looping]

1 minute ago, NoTekkersRB said:

They started the match off that way before England scored. And it is a popular tactic.

Changing of players doesn't just simply mean the player will play different, tactics would be discussed in training matches by the manager with the team before hand. There is a reason why managers hold tactical training, a reason why they have huge dossiers on the opposition. They use tactics to exploit the weaknesses of the opposition and play to their own strengths.

Do you believe managers send out their players on a pitch and just say, play 442, do what you want?

No, I didn't say that. But they don't have much to say. IMO, they talk too much to their players. A manager must know what his players are able to do, and decide which players to use in every match. If the opponent has an attacking fullback (not tactical, I mean a player who is attacking, Roberto Carlos for instance), may be a good idea to put a winger there. This kind of stuff is fine and acceptable. Beyond this I think is almost overcomplicating and confusing players.

 

[NoTekkersRB]

10 minutes ago, looping said:

No, I didn't say that. But they don't have much to say. IMO, they talk too much to their players. A manager must know what his players are able to do, and decide which players to use in every match. If the opponent has an attacking fullback (not tactical, I mean a player who is attacking, Roberto Carlos for instance), may be a good idea to put a winger there. This kind of stuff is fine and acceptable. Beyond this I think is almost overcomplicating and confusing players.

 

 

So you want FM to be simpler because in real life you believe that it's not complex?

 

Are you watching the Spain/England match. Have you noticed the pressing triggers from England? They press Busquets aggressively wherever he is on the pitch but only start pressing the rest of the team once Spain move over the half way line. That's pretty tactical

[Shameless1]

11 minutes ago, looping said:

Totally agree. 

Willian and Fabregar and not football players no longer. Ex players in my opinion.

Still talking about players. Of course player affect how the team plays. Nothing about tactic yet.

Luis Enrique doesn't have Xavi and has Neymar. Xavi retains possession, dictates tempo and slows down tempo. Nothing about tactics yet. 

I can't stand Guardiola so I'd better say nothing.

No idea how Roma plays.

 This is a rare case where tactics were really important, but try to do the same in fm ;). Basically, Mourinho said everybody (literally) behind the ball. Eto'o Fullback. Possession was like 85-15. I'm talking after red card to Motta. I was in Camp Nou that day (I support Barça) and I remember perfectly what happened. And we all know what happened but Zlatan said best. If you try this in fm... 

 

When I say tactics are not important I mean, for exemple. You are Madrid and your double pivot is Modric and Kross. If you replace Kroos for Casemiro you haven't changed your tactic, you have changed your players. Another exemple. Your striker is Defoe (quick of the ball). On the bench, you have Crouch. You replace Defoe for Crouch. Your team will play different but you didn't change the tactic, you changed your players!

This is OT, but I so interesting I had to answer. I apologize to myself for not keeping on topic

 

 

 

Mourinho defensive phase that game was incredible solid cause barca has not really clear cut chances.

You can tell xavy to pass direct  or to slow tempo you can tells to your players to close down more or less.

If you put gattuso in and pirlo out the overall team change the way to play but also you can't ask pirlo to play like gattuso and viceversa but you can tell to pirlo to play short pass and to gattuso to close down less or to pirlo to play ton the flanks rather the direct vertical play.

 

So you have always to get the overall balance on your team. Benitez was largely criticated cause of casemiro, then zidane has arrived at the same conclusion cause of the overal balance on the team.

 

But also if u don't like guardiola, the tactical style is now different. Has not rakitic the tecnicall pass style to play similar to xavi? has not neyamr the quality to play like villa? 

 

look at italy in 2006. Good players and not real great players.

I mean one thing is nesta and cannavaro another is zaccardo and iaquinta. Good player but not worlcass players. Italy won the world cup. 

Tactic is important and catch the right players to play how you want is important too. 

I remember with guardiola at barca that the possesion ball was not the point. The point was take the ball closing down heavily, having also tecnical quality then barca played an incredibile football. It's obvious that with other kind of players you cannot achieve this kind of play.

 

Simeone il cholo, look at atletico madrid.

The sold d costa and  they have been taked griezman two kind of different players, he adapted the attacking phase to catch the best from him. Always in counter but different.

[Shameless1]

18 minutes ago, NoTekkersRB said:

They started the match off that way before England scored. And it is a popular tactic.

Changing of players doesn't just simply mean the player will play different, tactics would be discussed in training matches by the manager with the team before hand. There is a reason why managers hold tactical training, a reason why they have huge dossiers on the opposition. They use tactics to exploit the weaknesses of the opposition and play to their own strengths.

Do you believe managers send out their players on a pitch and just say, play 442, do what you want?

Hi :9 but but he want to say: If u put gattuso you cant ask him to play like pirlo and viceversa they are two different kind of player and u need both in your team. But if you change pirlo with gattuso the team will play differently. It' also true you can ask to gattuso to do something but you have to pick his best, and his best his marking taclking and closing down, not try killer balls or dribblings

[looping]

16 minutes ago, NoTekkersRB said:

So you want FM to be simpler because in real life you believe that it's not complex?

Well, if I were one of the developers I would do that, but I'm not

As I said before:

1 hour ago, looping said:

I think my problem is that I completely disagree with the vision inserted in fm. I think football is much more simple than that. The manager's influence is overpowered IMO. Tactics are a very little part of what happens on the pitch (IMO weather conditions and luck are more important, for instance). But that's what we have: adapt or give up.

I'm trying at this moment something different. I'll keep you all updated if you are interested.

[NoTekkersRB]

Just now, looping said:

Well, if I were one of the developers I would do that, but I'm not

I honestly believe you can achieve what you want. To be honest, the amount of complexity is down to you and how you perceive it but I think you'll start to see it in more simpler terms after as you said, you adapt to it.

As I said before:

I'm trying at this moment something different. I'll keep you all updated if you are interested.

Please do!

 

I've said this from your previous threads, I'm really interested in how you approach the match and how you speak to the media and teamtalks. I haven't played FM17 yet so I don't know how much teamtalks are influential

[looping]

18 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

You can tell xavy to pass direct  or to slow tempo you can tells to your players to close down more or less.

Yes, and going to an extreme scale you can say, "Hey Peter Crouch, to the right touch line, stay wide and when you get the ball knock it past the opponent, run and cross".

I hope you understand what I mean!

[Shameless1]

2 minutes ago, looping said:

Yes, and going to an extreme scale you can say, "Hey Peter Crouch, to the right touch line, stay wide and when you get the ball knock it past the opponent, run and cross".

I hope you understand what I mean!

Yes u can but i don't know if it will  work ahahahaahah

[Shameless1]

FOr example @Draktor wrote me how to address the defensive line . But i'm unsure if i understood well or not. He told me to start from a low defence line and the up one by one until the opponents ...now i have problem ahahah...until (  to keeping upping your defensive line until the point where the AI is consistently hitting balls over the top for the strikers ) what does it mean exactley? I'm italian 

[looping]

22 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

FOr example @Draktor wrote me how to address the defensive line . But i'm unsure if i understood well or not. He told me to start from a low defence line and the up one by one until the opponents ...now i have problem ahahah...until (  to keeping upping your defensive line until the point where the AI is consistently hitting balls over the top for the strikers ) what does it mean exactley? I'm italian 

If your defense line is high they won't have space to pass the ball so they will try a ball over the top behind your defense where there will be space available for a paced striker. You may need a sweeper keeper.

What can I possibly say? This is the exact reason why I want a low block: no balls over the top.

[looping]

What I did is to use this tactic

Make your football formation with this11.com

No TI, No PI.

Standard Flexible. Adjusting mentality depending on circumstances (opponent, result,etc..)

Not watching games (key highlights). Not paying much attention. Before the match starts I set the mentality. For instance, against Barcelona I went defensive. Last 10 mins contain. Result 1-1 (away). Against weak teams at home I start with Control. I can go attacking if I don't score.

I played 19 games, with Malaga. 8 wins, 6 draw 5 lost. Not bad results. The best, by far, in months. I'm a conceding machine (23 conceded, 31 scored), specially in last minutes and I have no idea what to do with shape. I don't know when change to fluid or structured.

I'd like to play with shape the same way I do with mentality (if I they attack I defend, if they defend I attack). Can I do something similar with shape? This would be a great improvement I think...

Any suggestion?

 

[Rashidi]

This is slowly becoming a whinging thread. It's about how one person's point of view is not reflected into the game. It's about how one person sees the world of football and believes that is the God given truth, which is probably an opinion not widely shared.  Keep those views to yourself and stop whining.

If its tactical advice you guys want, there will be that on the forums. If you expect the game to bend over to your version of reality I will close this thread. I am trying my best to be civil, but the reality is that tactics play a huge part in real life. 

[Rashidi]

24 minutes ago, looping said:

What I did is to use this tactic

Make your football formation with this11.com

No TI, No PI.

Standard Flexible. Adjusting mentality depending on circumstances (opponent, result,etc..)

Not watching games (key highlights). Not paying much attention. Before the match starts I set the mentality. For instance, against Barcelona I went defensive. Last 10 mins contain. Result 1-1 (away). Against weak teams at home I start with Control. I can go attacking if I don't score.

I played 19 games, with Malaga. 8 wins, 6 draw 5 lost. Not bad results. The best, by far, in months. I'm a conceding machine (23 conceded, 31 scored), specially in last minutes and I have no idea what to do with shape. I don't know when change to fluid or structured.

I'd like to play with shape the same way I do with mentality (if I they attack I defend, if they defend I attack). Can I do something similar with shape? This would be a great improvement I think...

Any suggestion?

 

I think I have said it before and I won't go into it again. You can watch any number of my videos which show me changing mentality and shape. Yes you can, so treat shape as getting more players involved in transitions. When looking at transitions, spot which of the players in your team don't get up, then study their attributes..chanc8es are they are missing one or two key attributes for them to be effective support players

[Shameless1]

6 hours ago, Rashidi said:

This is slowly becoming a whinging thread. It's about how one person's point of view is not reflected into the game. It's about how one person sees the world of football and believes that is the God given truth, which is probably an opinion not widely shared.  Keep those views to yourself and stop whining.

If its tactical advice you guys want, there will be that on the forums. If you expect the game to bend over to your version of reality I will close this thread. I am trying my best to be civil, but the reality is that tactics play a huge part in real life. 

Hi rashidi.

 

Don't get angry  

 I'm not crying .

I want to understand the way to achieve the target i've in mind. But i just overcomplicate things because i have problems addressing tactic addressing issues.

 

Since we are talking here "how to learn to play" (topic start, right?), let's talk about this.

 

First of all you should have a plan in mind, i mean a way you want to play.

Then you should create your shape and try to have on paper a balance of your team between roles and duty.

Balance between defence midifield and attack.

So finding a well balance to see good transitions, right?

Then you start with the tactic setting, right?

 

Maybe starting with a standard mentality.

Once you start playing and you see that the match is not going well you should be able to see and address problems.

The question is:

 

How do i exactely do to fix problems?

 

 

 

for example: Tactical issue: 

 

I see that in midfield i'm loosing territorial possesing, so if loose  the midfield battle it means i'm not controlling the game and the team gets dominated.

 

I should understand why, right?

 

questions:

are my players passing the ball well?

if not, why?

 

 

have they options to pass well?

 

have they support around them?

 

are they heavily  closed down?

 

should i close down more? 

Should i lower the tempo and or shorten the passing style?

All this questions bring us in confusion cause maybe we start to:

 

CLose down more, lower the tempo and short the passing style at the same time.

If it does not work maybe we think:

"ok, hard tackling", if it does not work, "ok tight mark tight" , if it does not work we start changing roles, duty.

 

If it does not work the we must call a fireman cause the laptopn is on fire :).

 

So maybe we need learn how to address things like these.

Problem/solution.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[thomas_e]

@looping:  "Not watching games (key highlights). Not paying much attention" - why wouldn't you pay attention? 

 

[OLLMEISTER1]

With regards to the people who are constantly struggling, it would be interesting to see in depth your;

1. Training schedules/ideology behind why you chose them

2. Pre season schedules/games/results

3. Outlay of team morale heading into the league season

4. Current tactical familiarity heading into the league season

The above are all important parts of needing to get right before the season kicks off. Its not just a question of raging through to the first game of the season with a plug & play tactic and expecting it to instantly work. You need to set the groundwork in order for a season to be successful.

I see a lot of people say I tried this/that tactic and it doesn't work. There may be underlying factors (bullet points above) beyond your control due to a lack of preparation prior to the season commencing.

Setting solid foundations is the base to any successful team.

[Shameless1]

56 minutes ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

With regards to the people who are constantly struggling, it would be interesting to see in depth your;

1. Training schedules/ideology behind why you chose them

2. Pre season schedules/games/results

3. Outlay of team morale heading into the league season

4. Current tactical familiarity heading into the league season

The above are all important parts of needing to get right before the season kicks off. Its not just a question of raging through to the first game of the season with a plug & play tactic and expecting it to instantly work. You need to set the groundwork in order for a season to be successful.

I see a lot of people say I tried this/that tactic and it doesn't work. There may be underlying factors (bullet points above) beyond your control due to a lack of preparation prior to the season commencing.

Setting solid foundations is the base to any successful team.

It's @looping topic but i  will tell you what i normally do:

 

Preseason:

Really high: fitness 3 weeks.

After the 2nd week i start to play some friendly match increasing the match day slider up to 50% in the 4th week setting it on match preparation until my players learn the tactic.

 

From the 4th week to the 7th week i set high training load. If i have a lot of new players i make one week of cohesion, if not it depends by the tactic.

 

I mean:

if my main tactic is on counter i do:

 

September

october defence

november defence

december defence

january balanced

february defence

march april fitness

april fitness

may balanced.

 

This choice is because i need workrate(fitness) increasing and defence attribute increasing.

 

If i play with control, something like possession oriented tactica, normally i do:

sep tact

oct tact

nov tact

dec balanced

jan tact

feb controll ball

mar control ball

apr controll ball

may attacking

the reason is increasing of tactic attribute and controll ball first. So we have 4 month on tact -  three on controll ball and two on attacking.

Preseason is fitness oriented and defence.

 

[Rashidi]

Have you guys read the stickies? My BusttheNet threads deal with everything you mentioned from start to end. Even training is covered and how to adapt to changes, what to look for, how you decide on your players. Its a monster thread that is still relevant today. The way I play has not changed.

[Rashidi]

5 hours ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

With regards to the people who are constantly struggling, it would be interesting to see in depth your;

1. Training schedules/ideology behind why you chose them

Custom- Changed every 3 months. Max focus 3 areas. Its a min maxed way of training but very easy to get wrong, balanced works fine too. Though I do not do ppm training in the first few seasons, only when I start building long term

5 hours ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

2. Pre season schedules/games/results

Don't really care...8 games just to try out various versions of my systems..usually win most and draw a few

5 hours ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

3. Outlay of team morale heading into the league season

Good till November then its a challenge to keep it going till Feb cos thats where we usually struggle. And then we should be fine till end of the season provided we win.

 

5 hours ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

4. Current tactical familiarity heading into the league season

I don't care about tactical familiarity. It should be fine if I stuck with one tactic and kept three variations of Mentality/Shape but sometimes bad things happen and you need to adapt like changing a tactic because an imp player got injured

 

5 hours ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

The above are all important parts of needing to get right before the season kicks off. Its not just a question of raging through to the first game of the season with a plug & play tactic and expecting it to instantly work. You need to set the groundwork in order for a season to be successful.

The above aren't really important to be honest. In terms of priority this is the most important:

Identify you clubs personality/DNA what kind of players do you have? Are they hardworking, do they have stamina do they have high work rates. How are their physicals can they out run the rest? 

Then you need to identify a system that can exploit the talent you have. First seasons are the hardest cos you need to play with what you have, not how you want to play, So you need to create really decent survival tactics. These include systems that have static defences that make it hard for 3 man attacks to get around. Survival before success, for teams that are not the Barcas. For top teams its not an issue, play whatever you want. You should win.

When you go through your players you need to determine who can support transitions. These are all physicals and mentals , so these players need to be able to get up and down and know when to do it. They should be brave and not afraid to go into a challenge.

Finally determine which players are critical, these players may need cover. And you can also (if you are sticking to one tactic) create variations with roles. This allows you to play differently within one game. Take a 3 man strike force. One can be a CF(A) supported by a W and a IF, you could change the CF to a DLP(S) and tell the other two to attack.  A simple change in duties can turn things around

 

This is why my preseason is important. I experiment.

 

5 hours ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

I see a lot of people say I tried this/that tactic and it doesn't work. There may be underlying factors (bullet points above) beyond your control due to a lack of preparation prior to the season commencing.

Not true.

5 hours ago, OLLMEISTER1 said:

Setting solid foundations is the base to any successful team.

Having a plan is important executing it is a diff story 

[Shameless1]

15 hours ago, Rashidi said:

This is slowly becoming a whinging thread. It's about how one person's point of view is not reflected into the game. It's about how one person sees the world of football and believes that is the God given truth, which is probably an opinion not widely shared.  Keep those views to yourself and stop whining.

If its tactical advice you guys want, there will be that on the forums. If you expect the game to bend over to your version of reality I will close this thread. I am trying my best to be civil, but the reality is that tactics play a huge part in real life. 

Yes i know your yt channel but unfurtunatelly i'm not so able to follow you  when you speak cause I'm italian. So i try to understand  what u tell us. Do u have some blog?

[looping]

2 hours ago, Shameless1 said:

Yes i know your yt channel but unfurtunatelly i'm not so able to follow you  when you speak cause I'm italian. So i try to understand  what u tell us. Do u have some blog?

Same for me.

And when I read a post I don't have the match going on so I can't figure out...

[Arel]

I went from winning two consecutive Champions League in FM2015 to being sacked in less than two seasons in FM2016 on every save I've created. I started to question myself too. I was like "For god's sake man, I play this game since it was called Championship Manager 01/02! What the hell is happening with me?!".
I spent this summer on hiatus but always paying attention to the community, specially from the "old foxes" of the game and administrators of the forum and sincerely I think you and me are suffering the same exact thing that Mourinho is suffering in real life: we refuse to adapt our tactic ideals. Notice, I'm not talking about adapt to the game itself, but to adapt our mentality and tactical designs.

I deeply, deeply love the 442 standard.

442 standard grew up with me, for more than a decade. Of course i used 433 and 4231 in other ocasions, depending on the team i had in hands, but my baby was always the  442. In the modern days and real life the 442 evolved. We simply don't want to believe that his new shape is now a 4132. Trust me, if you put a DM (you can try different roles) along with a MC (again test different roles) you'll have more success.

I trully understand when you say "it goes against my principles". I felt the same too. But think that in this kind of relationship (manager-formation shaping) we both need to give away something in order to succeed. You give away the CM(def) position and the formation will give away the worst results you had until now.

I'm still learning to play FM2017 and until now 1 season passed and still not sacked! Not a master, just a simple player that loves the game since the 12 years old and sincerelly, it is us who need to evolve.

 

Best regards, Arel

PS: this helped me a lot (thank you wwfan):