Learning how to play

[facman]

What mentality are you planning to use? The reason I ask is that on higher mentalities your players will take more risks on the ball, so playing Control or Attacking you may find your WM(A) will try to dribble past the 2 defenders even though you are screaming at him to pass back to the unmarked FB behind him. On a lower mentality, the WM(A) will look at the situation and play the safer ball back to the FB.

On a different point you mentioned in a post that you wondered if 4-4-2 wasn't working properly due to lack of numbers in midfield. I haven't had any trouble getting 4-4-2 to work, but one of the real life limitations of 4-4-2 is that against many teams the midfield duo will be outnumbered. the trick is to accept that and work around it, often by funneling creative play down the flanks and using the 2 central midfielders in supporting and 'destroying' roles.

As far as a lone striker goes, my preference is to play a support striker backed up by a Shadow striker in the AM slot, but I'll freely admit that getting the ST/AMC combination right is not one of my tactical strong points (which is why I don't use it)

[looping]

As usual, I'm ridiculously failing.

I've started 3 different saves this weekend. All of them ended with me sacked. My matches are a crazy exhibition of chances and goals. My strikers are scoring a lot but my defenders are absolutely terrible. Conceding an outrageous amount of goals (last save 30 games 46 conceded).

I will start from scratch again tomorrow but I'm starting to run out of ideas.

[facman]

Woah, there horsey! Slow down! You managed 3 saves, with 30 games in the last save alone... In one weekend! No wonder you are struggling, you're playing WAAAAY too quickly! 

Now I know that I'm a slow player, but I only managed 13 games in the same time. The difference is that I won 9 of them, drew 3 and lost only 1.

I honestly can't see how you can be watching and analysing your matches in any sort of detail at that speed, and only by watching and analysing will you improve.

Why not take some time to watch Rashidi analyse a game in one of his YouTube videos, then do the same thing to one of your matches? It helped me when I was first struggling with FM16.

[looping]

On 7/11/2016 at 03:05, facman said:

Woah, there horsey! Slow down! You managed 3 saves, with 30 games in the last save alone... In one weekend! No wonder you are struggling, you're playing WAAAAY too quickly! 

Now I know that I'm a slow player, but I only managed 13 games in the same time. The difference is that I won 9 of them, drew 3 and lost only 1.

I honestly can't see how you can be watching and analysing your matches in any sort of detail at that speed, and only by watching and analysing will you improve.

Why not take some time to watch Rashidi analyse a game in one of his YouTube videos, then do the same thing to one of your matches? It helped me when I was first struggling with FM16.

The fact is that I'm fed up of analysing matches, watching videos and reading posts. Whatever I do, my results are terrible or I'm directly sacked. Any effort I put leads me to defeat.

Why I can't set a rational tactic and get rational results? I like developing squads with young players, I don't like chess manager, basically because I can't play it. It's not playing it's only suffering.

This is not normal. I have my studies, a good job, family and friends. I am an average person. How is posible I can't play this game?

[shadster]

I'm struggling very hard as well on this years version.. hope you find a way to figure how to understand this ME, it will surely be an inspiration to others like me. I don't play FM17 since 3 days ago, because I figured that I don´t understand how to create a style and tweak it for specific opposing threats. I went to read the guides, but well, the game apparently became too complex for me!

[looping]

41 minutes ago, shadster said:

I'm struggling very hard as well on this years version.. hope you find a way to figure how to understand this ME, it will surely be an inspiration to others like me. I don't play FM17 since 3 days ago, because I figured that I don´t understand how to create a style and tweak it for specific opposing threats. I went to read the guides, but well, the game apparently became too complex for me!

I don't know what I don't understand.

 

[Loversleaper]

It's not exactly a game of chess, definitely not as complicated as a game of chess - that is for sure. In the game there are several hints that indicates what one can do in terms of strategy choice for the upcoming fixture, why it is always a good idea to have a scout looking at your opponents. His advice is usually good although he will make a mistake (in regards to strategy) from time to time - but if you read the descriptions of the Strategies, then you can easily correct his mistakes... In the long run you probably wont even need to listen to him and maybe just glance over the report just to see if there is something you missed.

 

The Strategy descriptions are very important and the better you are at reading games gives you the edge - it's for sure not too difficult if you put your mind to it. Step one is to read the descriptions, step two is to not over complicate the strategies with too many instructions and learn how they work.

 

 

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First game home to Liverpool. Large underdog so I imagine Liverpool will try to attack me. I go with a Standard strategy which is a kind of suits the situation - emphasizing equally on Defending and Attacking. I am on home pitch and don't want to emphasize too heavily on Defending - away from home I would definitely Defend more...

 

I got a few CCC in the match and took one of them in a smash and grab game.

 

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Next game away to Arsenal. Large underdog and for sure, Arsenal at home will put me under a lot of pressure. Defensive Strategy pretty much suits this situation and of course I go with a more Bottom Heavy Formation to help in trying to frustrate my opponent. We had a big chance each and we both take it (indicating that both teams are more or less spot on in terms of tactical gameplay). I kept them at bay which was the tactical plan and set-up from the get go.

 

 

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In the cup tie against Southend my team is large favorite. Southend will probably try to sit more back and Counter and this is where Control Strategy is quite useful when you look at the description of the strategy. I use a lot of the second string players to avoid injuries and give some of the fringe players playing time to get into the squad.

 

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Home against the reigning champions Leicester and again I find myself in the large underdog role. Standard worked well against Liverpool so I try the same type of Strategy gameplay against them. Should have won it and did very well, but signs that tactically we are pretty sound.

 

 

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Next away to Stoke and underdog against a normally home strong Stoke. I tend to make a habit of playing Defensive away from home and use the same setup like I did against Arsenal. Kept Stoke away from my goal which resulted in them having to shoot from a distance and a counter resulted in a huge chance which we took and scored.

 

 

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Home against WBA is my first home match as a favorite. WBA will for sure try to hit me on the Counter and Control's description suits this situation pretty well. The plan works and my team plays well. We create quite a few chances, but only really get one huge chance where we take it and score.

 

 

 

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In the next fixture is another cup tie and since Newcastle have a pretty big reputation means they actually get favorable odds despite them being in a division under the one I am playing in. It's a cup tie so want to try and snatch it a little more aggressively so this time I try a Counter tactic. The game flies back and forth with lots of chances to both sides (using still quite a few back up players in the early stages of the cup ties) but with very few real quality chances.

 

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Away to Burnley sees my team be favorites for the first time in a League match. I think Burnley will play a little more attacking than simply trying to Counter me since they are on home field and probably they have a chance against a rookie manager. I go with the Standard strategy that worked pretty well against Liverpool and Leicester and we basically run them over creating several quality chances. We keep it pretty tight at the back and at the same time are dangerous going forward as Burnley are not protecting themselves enough (which they probably will do next time we meet them ;)) 

 

 

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Home against Hull saw my team get back into a favorite role. Reading the match stats (in this instance tackling %) indicate that I could have gone more Attacking strategy, but as you can see it worked out pretty well but definitely something I will monitor as the season progresses.

 

 

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Away to Swansea sees my team go back to the underdog role, maybe due to Swansea building a reputation of playing a passing game and maybe have had some pretty decent results here early in the season. I decide to go back to my Defending strategy and see how my team does in this situation. Turns out Swansea don't put my team enough under pressure and results in my team keeping them ball for large portions of the match. Again they cannot break our defensive stance and don't have a single quality chance as their Attacking mentality runs into our wall. We decide the game with a looping header on a set piece (match prep was attacking set piece which might have contributed to the deciding factor - scout got that info right it seems)

 

 

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Away to Everton is basically the same situation as the Swansea game above so I go with the familiar away Defend strategy. Again the game looks incredibly like the Swansea game but this time my team creates a devastating counter that results in a goal and Everton cannot break our defensive wall.

 

 

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So, this is how I basically play the game and use the strategies and descriptions to basically combat the dynamic AI opponents. The formation stays pretty much intact (a 4-1DM-2-3 slash 4-1DM-4-1) depending on the opponent. As you can see I have used 3 different strategies so far (Control - Standard - Defend) although on one occasion I tweaked the Defend tactic to Counter inMatch (to not disrupt my familiarity levels). I will be aware that if my team continues to do well, I might have to play more Attacking (to break down stubborn opposition) at some point in time. This usually evolves from good result form and bringing in quality players....

 

Don't underestimate the familiarity aspect in the game either! It takes a little thought process and patience to get your team into form and be ready to evolve your strategy outlook along the way. Generally CCC's and Tackling % become more efficient when you are in the more or less general correct Strategy area is one of the things you want to look out for...

 

Remember, this is just one way of playing the game - you can always look for the winning formula in terms of a super tactic but looking across the forums suggest that they are becoming more and more scarce...

[looping]

45 minutes ago, Loversleaper said:

 

Thanks for your answer.

I don't know what to say. THis is exactly what I was doing one year ago and I'm still here.

[hicuty]

I am with the same boat as you. I am sacked 5-6 times from southampton until i gave up last year. I tried to implement my own strategy without the usual cut inside-stay wider duo at wings. I tried to make 4-4-2 to work with wingers crossing same as you. Never worked. I felt like i must play the game in a specific way. Like forced on me. I thought like you, i get results if i play like that way. But i dont want to play like that. I read guides here, watched rashidi's videos if i can implement what on my mind on the game. 

Then i realized something this is becoming too complex. And game has too many variables to think off that i just cant stand nowadays and exit the game. I know this is not an issue for players playing the game 10 or maybe 15 years, witnessing the change while game develops and it may become their natural kind of a talent when processing the information they see and making decisions accordingly while we cant.

I know i am overcomplicating things but this is my thought process after 2 years of failed fm playing.

[Ceching You Out]

6 hours ago, looping said:

Thanks for your answer.

I don't know what to say. THis is exactly what I was doing one year ago and I'm still here.

Hold on here. You had a successful tactic with Arsenal that was working yet you blew it up because it wasn't historically defensive. Why not go back to that? Sure seems like you had some sort of path forward there.

[cfkllasdfaslkdfj]

@Loversleaper

Perfect input. How do you change Team Shape and TI/PI and player roles while adapting to the opponent?

[looping]

On 1/11/2016 at 21:35, looping said:

Despite I'm having good results, I can already tell you this is going nowhere.

The reason is that I'm only winning:
 

a) Opponent offers space. Then we have a crazy match where anything can happen (ManU, ManCity, Tottenham, Everton)

b) I luckily score first and then opponent offers space.

c) My players are better and despite the opponent plays better I win.

 

Opponents create a lot of chances. I'm not conceding more because they are much worse than me. Cech also helped here.

 

What I don't understand is why my problem (my tactic can't unlock packed defenses) causes a defensive problem and not an attacking problem. My problem is conceding, not scoring. 

My idea with my tactic is:

a) This is a defensive tactic which will allow you to keep clean sheets, so one goal must be enough to win (this is ideally, I know won't happen always).

b) If you are a weak team, the opponent will offer space.

c) If you are a big team, the opponent won't offer space, but the quality of your players will be able to unlock them.

d) If you can't score, at least you will draw 0-0

Facts (matches) show that point b) and c) are correct. I'm failing in points a) and d)

 

What I'm going to do is to tweak my tactic to make it more defensive. I'll go to defensive mentality and I'll drop my 2 cm to dm, one on defensive other on support (maybe get further forward PI). 

We have, then:

What do you think?

 

 

 

14 hours ago, Ceching You Out said:

Hold on here. You had a successful tactic with Arsenal that was working yet you blew it up because it wasn't historically defensive. Why not go back to that? Sure seems like you had some sort of path forward there.

I explained why I changed. Not exactly blew it up because it wasn't historically defensive.

Anyway, in that save, before being sacked, I came back to my initial tactic. 

I knew, from the first moment, this was going nowhere, even when my results were decent.

[looping]

19 hours ago, hicuty said:

I am with the same boat as you. I am sacked 5-6 times from southampton until i gave up last year. I tried to implement my own strategy without the usual cut inside-stay wider duo at wings. I tried to make 4-4-2 to work with wingers crossing same as you. Never worked. I felt like i must play the game in a specific way. Like forced on me. I thought like you, i get results if i play like that way. But i dont want to play like that. I read guides here, watched rashidi's videos if i can implement what on my mind on the game. 

Then i realized something this is becoming too complex. And game has too many variables to think off that i just cant stand nowadays and exit the game. I know this is not an issue for players playing the game 10 or maybe 15 years, witnessing the change while game develops and it may become their natural kind of a talent when processing the information they see and making decisions accordingly while we cant.

I know i am overcomplicating things but this is my thought process after 2 years of failed fm playing.

This.

[Ceching You Out]

33 minutes ago, looping said:

 

I explained why I changed. Not exactly blew it up because it wasn't historically defensive.

Anyway, in that save, before being sacked, I came back to my initial tactic. 

I knew, from the first moment, this was going nowhere, even when my results were decent.

You changed it because it didn't meet your predefined criteria despite being very, very successful defensively (and overall). I get that. But I'm not sure how to put this any clearer -- your idea of how to play does not work for highly successful teams. No real world, top of the table teams play that way. None. There is a reason for that however much you ignore it.

You are then left with a choice. You can play exactly the way you want and fail because that tactic does not fit a top side OR you can create a successful tactic that keeps the heart of what you want do but changes a few things here and there. The choice is completely yours.

 

[looping]

To bring this to something constructive.

Use this11.com for tactics for football

 

I made some adjustments. I dropped one of my strikers to amc strata because in almost every match I had to tell one of my strikers to man mark a midfielder (3-2 cm situations). 

I removed PI to my wm-at, so now they are not (only) running wide, dribbling and crossing. I want now them to do a bit of everything. I won't tell them to cut inside simply because this is not what I want them to do, but not cutting inside is not forbidden. 

In previous posts explained mentality, shape, gk PI.

 

What can I change from this tactic?

I admit to apply the following changes:

- I can use any mentality and team shape when is required.

-  I can use wb instead of fb (even limited fullbacks if needed)

- I can use any other role instead of cm-su (creator-runner)

- I can use wingers instead of wide midfielders.

- I can use any creative role in the amc (no SS-at)

- I can use any goal focused role striker (poacher or af)

- I can drop my cm to dm strata.

 

According to this, would you apply any change to my basic tactic?

 

 

 

[looping]

19 hours ago, Ceching You Out said:

You changed it because it didn't meet your predefined criteria despite being very, very successful defensively (and overall). I get that. But I'm not sure how to put this any clearer -- your idea of how to play does not work for highly successful teams. No real world, top of the table teams play that way. None. There is a reason for that however much you ignore it.

You are then left with a choice. You can play exactly the way you want and fail because that tactic does not fit a top side OR you can create a successful tactic that keeps the heart of what you want do but changes a few things here and there. The choice is completely yours.

 

On 1/7/2016 at 17:50, looping said:

In real football i can identify when the tactic is wrong, when it is a individual mistake or when you can't do anything because the opponent was brilliant. I see it. Not in fm.

That's probably because I am completely against complex football. You don't need to be a rocket scientist to be a manager. Football tactics are simple, it's just that nowadays managers tend to overcomplicate things. The same does fm.

If you have good players, all you need is to put them in the right places and set a rational formation. If you do that, then football is 80% your players, 5% physical training, 5% motivation and group psychology, 5% luck and 5% manager decisions.

I know many people don't think so. We can watch on tv brainy studies about how the manager changed things. This is only blablabla.

What can a manger do? First, identify which of his players are the best for every match. It depends on how are they training during the week, mental, the opponent, etc.. DUring the matches, the manager can change things: a substitution, for instance. But a tactical change hardly ever changes anything. It is false. Simply. A myth.

Milan Liverpool 3-3 Champions League. Did Benitez anything? Well, i think he made a couple of substitutions. But they didn't score 3 goals because of the magical mind of Benitez. He didn't "change mentality to counter" or "dropped defense" or said "work ball into box". He probably said "guys we can still win blablabla". This is psychology.

Later, Liverpoll were extremely lucky. Dudek made unbelievable saves (luck and players). And, the most important, Milan thought the game was over with the 3-0 (mental).

That was just an example.

I thing i can't apply my vision to fm. Fm thinks like guardiola and other stupid managers. They think they are the center of football. No. They are not. They are dispensable.

My tactic is not perfect, but it is good enough to get sevilla to beat ingolstatd 9 of 10 times. What's the problem? Well, probably fm thinks there is something wrong (not discussing what now) in my tactic. And as long as there is something wrong, it doesn't work.

And that's why i know what happens in real football and why i don't know what happens on fm. Because in fm if you "drop your defense" or "change mentality to counter" it has an absolutely overpowered effect. Tactical decisions are absolutely overpowered.

It seems I was right and I can't play fm because its vision is totally against mine. I'll have to understand its vision or give up.

 

 

 

 

 

[shadster]

I know many will disagree, but I agree with looping and hicuty. I feel the same. The last days I found a way to make a more successfull tactic. Had to give up on trying to emulate the Benfica tactic, and I went back to my "safe" tactic (4-1-2-2-1).

But this game now, at least for me, has become just a struggle to find how the development team thinks what's the best way to win, and not to implement a style and try to develop it. I play this game since CM 01/02, and I can really say that I admit it, the game has become too complex for me, and it takes most of the fun. And I really miss having fun playing FM!

[looping]

19 minutes ago, shadster said:

I know many will disagree, but I agree with looping and hicuty. I feel the same. The last days I found a way to make a more successfull tactic. Had to give up on trying to emulate the Benfica tactic, and I went back to my "safe" tactic (4-1-2-2-1).

But this game now, at least for me, has become just a struggle to find how the development team thinks what's the best way to win, and not to implement a style and try to develop it. I play this game since CM 01/02, and I can really say that I admit it, the game has become too complex for me, and it takes most of the fun. And I really miss having fun playing FM!

This.

I've been playing since cm 01-02 also and I agree the game is too complex now and there is no reason why, because football is not that complex. It's only some people nowadays who are trying to convince us football is rocket science about space and movement. Fm crew were convinced.

Basically, this means almost dismissing player's talent and rely on brilliant tactical moves. Video killed the radio star. This is a wrong vision for any matter. Talent is the key, not watching videos.

It's not blaming the game. I know I fail because I'm not good enough at watching games and other people have success because they analyze better matches. 

Anyway, I'm trying a new and extremely simple approach. I'll let you know as soon as posible. 

[Loversleaper]

On ‎11‎/‎9‎/‎2016 at 18:24, cfkllasdfaslkdfj said:

@Loversleaper

Perfect input. How do you change Team Shape and TI/PI and player roles while adapting to the opponent?

 

Actually, I am not really changing that much and never really switch roles once I have made my base tactic. In the Watford save above, I play a 4-1-2-2-1/4-1-4-1 formation. Goalkeeper, full backs, center backs, DM, central midfielder alongside an Advanced Playmaker, two wingers (might change one of them to an inside forward inMatch - depends) and Complete forward in the 4-1-2-2-1 or a Defensive Forward in the 4-1-4-1. The forward switch is simply down to the Complete forward making risky passes (through balls) which is okay with pushed up wide men but in the 4-1-4-1 there is not enough support so the Defensive Forward with his less risky pass instruction connects more with the team...

 

In the defensive strategies I will have more defend and support duties and in the attacking you have more attack duties... It's good to get a good  balance to make the different strategies (mentality frameworks) become more stable. The scout usually gives indications how many of those duties you might need, but it's no crime to go one more or one less as long as you cover or push forward enough to make the strategy more sound.

 

So, I don't really adapt to the opponent on an individual level but more on a mentality/duty level that I have built from the start. I will definitely make use of at least 3 strategies but the formation/style of play/roles/team shape will stay intact. I like to keep things simple and get on with the game.

 

To get back to looping and a few other gamers that seem to be struggling I will say this: remember when Mourinho went to Real Madrid? The club expected Mourinho to attack Barcelona and show the world what a strong team they were... What happened? Barca players ran rings around the Real heavy pressure and punished them severely and won 5-0. Mourinho had to do something really unpopular and play incredibly disciplined and defensive in the following matches against Barca to get a result and he finally did start getting results against them. Sometimes in football you have to defend more and sometimes you have to attack more. Playing one way all the time is not feasible in the professional world. Okay, in Sunday Leagues you put out a team and you win or lose - but when it's your livelihood, the future of the club that is in your hands, you will encounter a different reality. In the professional game, tactical choices to stop opposition players tearing you to shreds will pop up from time to time. It's not how the manager or the players want to play the game, but when a lot is at stake, sacrifices have to be made. If players don't follow tactical plans they get pulled off and you might not see them back on the pitch for quite a while no matter how good they are - trust me, it happens...

 

Football manager is far away as it almost can get from being as complicated as the real life game of professional football. The 'rules' as you call them, are very few in FM 2017. Strategy is a good thing to learn as it represents the attack/defend part of the game of football. Then there are the small things like holding your fullbacks back against an attacking stronger opposition with talented pushed up wingers/inside forwards, or are you pushing a central midfielder (attack duty) up to support your strikers when you are playing more attacking strategies. It's simple things like this that make your tactics more sound --- it's not rocket science...   

   

[looping]

6 minutes ago, Loversleaper said:

 

To get back to looping and a few other gamers that seem to be struggling I will say this: remember when Mourinho went to Real Madrid? The club expected Mourinho to attack Barcelona and show the world what a strong team they were... What happened? Barca players ran rings around the Real heavy pressure and punished them severely and won 5-0. Mourinho had to do something really unpopular and play incredibly disciplined and defensive in the following matches to get a result and he finally did start getting results against them. Sometimes in football you have to defend more and sometimes you have to attack more. Playing one way all the time is not feasible in the professional world. Okay, in Sunday Leagues you put out a team and you win or lose - but when it's your livelihood, the future of the club that is in your hands, you will encounter a different reality. In the professional game, tactical choices to stop opposition players tearing you to shreds will pop up from time to time. It's not how the manager or the players want to play the game, but when a lot is at stake, sacrifices have to be made. If players don't follow tactical plans they get pulled off and you might not see them back on the pitch for quite a while no matter how good they are - trust me, it happens...

 

Football manager is far away as it almost can get from being as complicated as the real life game of professional football. The 'rules' as you call them, are very few in FM 2017. Strategy is a good thing to learn as it represents the attack/defend part of the game of football. Then there are the small things like holding your fullbacks back against an attacking stronger opposition with talented pushed up wingers/inside forwards, or are you pushing a central midfielder (attack duty) up to support your strikers when you are playing more attacking strategies. It's simple things like this that make your tactics more sound --- it's not rocket science...   

   

This is not exactly what happened with Mourinho and that 5-0 was more an accident in a weird match where Casillas could have done better in some goals (I support Barcelona, I was in Camp Nou that day, and believe me, Barça did not deserve to win 5-0)... But I get what you say and I agree.

I know you can't play exactly the same in every match, this is obvious, and nobody denies it and I am already doing it.  The ones who are trying to help me and others (never enough gratitude shown) don't understand the problem.

The problem is not a general approach to every game. I can do what you say are doing. I  can change the mentality, shape, even some roles&duties according to the match I expect (if I face a weaker or stronger opposition). The decisions I'll make are basically ok, but 3 problem will surge:

1. Translating my ideas to fm orders is extremely complicated. Fm is vague when not misleading (read mentalities description, for instance).

2. Very small mistakes will produce devastating effects.

3. I can't make adjustments on the fly.

So, imagine. I'm facing an stronger opposition. IRL I would say "guys sit back, wait, don't lose shape, try to stop them with fouls and send long balls to our striker and let's see". How do we translate this into fm? Probably defensive mentality, structured shape and a 4141 conservative formation. Fb on support, one dm on defend, 4 midfielders on support and 1 striker on support.

After 20 mins, the opponent has 8 shots on goal 3 ccc and  I can't (literally) tell you why. No idea. I will watch the game on full and I won't be able to say why I lost. 

You will say, your defense was too deep, with defensive mentality. Ok, I can't spot that. And I can't because I don't know at what point a defense is too deep or too high. It is easy to see in real life. I can't in fm.

IRL I watch a match and I have an opinion about what's going on. My opinion may be right or wrong, but I have an opinion. I have ideas, I know what would I do. In fm I have literally no idea what to do, I don't have an opinion, I don't know if my team is playing well or not. I don't know if a goal conceded was luck, a mistake of my player, a brilliant action of the opponent or there is a tactical problem. I don't know. Is that simple. 

I can now identify some patterns but not because I suddenly saw it. I identify them because somebody posted a similar issue and I read it.

The worst of all is when you read here on the forums "anybody can easily spot issues, "Anybody can see if the team is playing as fast they want. Anyone can see if the players are playing the kind of passes they expected to see and so on.". No, not everybody. I can't. And I can't see where is the problem and why I'm consistently losing. Despite all my efforts, I can't. I watch a match and I don't know what's wrong. And please, don't say good or wrong is what your players are doing if they are doing what you expect from them. This is not the problem. I know if my players are doing what I want. What i don't know is if fm thinks what they are doing is ok because I don't see any connection between real life and fm.

On top of that, fm thinks like Guardiola and others. They think football is a game where matches are won or lost due to tactical decisions. This is not true. At no level. It simply doesn't happen. Football results depend more on luck or weather conditions than tactical decisions.

It's been 1 year for me since I bought fm16. I haven't played a single real save. I'm sacked in every save or I resign before (I don't want to waste my time when there is nothing I can do). I have my studies, friends and family, I'm an average person. I've played this game since 2001. If I can't play the game nowadays, despite all the efforts I made and the time I spent. FM has a problem because it is spelling out of the game an average person who had a lot of fun with the game for years.

I hope somebody can finally understand what is my problem.

[looping]

And with that said, I will try again, but, to be honest, I don't know what to do. If somebody still wants to help me I can create a new tactic. I'll do whatever you ask me to, but don't say watch games and tweak because I can't do that.

Thanks.

[thomas_e]

7 hours ago, looping said:

If you have good players, all you need is to put them in the right places and set a rational formation. If you do that, then football is 80% your players, 5% physical training, 5% motivation and group psychology, 5% luck and 5% manager decisions.

I know many people don't think so. We can watch on tv brainy studies about how the manager changed things. This is only blablabla.

What can a manger do? First, identify which of his players are the best for every match. It depends on how are they training during the week, mental, the opponent, etc.. DUring the matches, the manager can change things: a substitution, for instance. But a tactical change hardly ever changes anything. It is false. Simply. A myth.

 

 

 

 

If you believe this to be true, which it is certainly not in my opinion, why do you play FM at all? Seems pointless.

To say that tactical changes affecting matches is a "myth" and "false" shows an unbelievable lack of understanding of football. And makes it even more obvious why you are failing time and time again. And when you are failing, you claim tactical changes affecting games as a myth. Such a misinformed and also arrogant statement. 

[looping]

21 minutes ago, thomas_e said:

If you believe this to be true, which it is certainly not in my opinion, why do you play FM at all? Seems pointless.

To say that tactical changes affecting matches is a "myth" and "false" shows an unbelievable lack of understanding of football. And makes it even more obvious why you are failing time and time again. And when you are failing, you claim tactical changes affecting games as a myth. Such a misinformed and also arrogant statement. 

 

8 hours ago, looping said:

If you have good players, all you need is to put them in the right places and set a rational formation. If you do that, then football is 80% your players, 5% physical training, 5% motivation and group psychology, 5% luck and 5% manager decisions.

I know many people don't think so. We can watch on tv brainy studies about how the manager changed things. This is only blablabla.

What can a manger do? First, identify which of his players are the best for every match. It depends on how are they training during the week, mental, the opponent, etc.. DUring the matches, the manager can change things: a substitution, for instance. But a tactical change hardly ever changes anything. It is false. Simply. A myth.

Milan Liverpool 3-3 Champions League. Did Benitez anything? Well, i think he made a couple of substitutions. But they didn't score 3 goals because of the magical mind of Benitez. He didn't "change mentality to counter" or "dropped defense" or said "work ball into box". He probably said "guys we can still win blablabla". This is psychology.

Later, Liverpoll were extremely lucky. Dudek made unbelievable saves (luck and players). And, the most important, Milan thought the game was over with the 3-0 (mental).

There is no reason to insult.

I explained politely my opinion and i didn't say tactics are not important. But tactics are not the magic key to success. There are other much more important elements than moving players position and saying strange things.

IMO, tactics mean have the right players in the right positions and doing what they are able to do. Peter Crouch is a good player but is not a winger. Peter Crouch is a good striker but not a trequartista. Peter Crouch is a good striker but it's stupid to send through balls for him to run. Tactics are rational decisions, not the game of chess. 

Once you place your players in the right positions and make them do what they best do,   the tactical job is done. In fact, doing more than this is overcomplicating and may kill the quality of your players. The best that a manager can do is not bother their players with strange instructions.. You  can give advice or say "be careful with that, pay attention to that...." But treating players like robots is what I think is wrong.

I don't know where are you from and if you know who Juanma Lillo is. Well, he is the perfect exemple. He overcomplicates things so much that confuses his players. This is what I think most of the managers do nowadays, to some extent. And, as long as I understand (I may be wrong, i want to learn), fm is forcing me to act like Juanma Lillo to have success.

Fortunately, IRL matches are not won or lost due to tactical decisions.

If you want to understand, fine. If you come here to insult me, better shut up.

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, looping said:

On top of that, fm thinks like Guardiola and others. They think football is a game where matches are won or lost due to tactical decisions. This is not true. At no level. It simply doesn't happen. Football results depend more on luck or weather conditions than tactical decisions.

 

As long as the teams aren't terribly mismanaged, it's a sport of fine margins and hugely tactical errors are probably unheard of at a certain level. I don't think the game "things like Guardiola at all" except for outright exploit tactics that run circles around defending issues or expose lack of AI tactical decision making, in that case the game becomes a completely game of tactics as it draws player quality that redundant that players compete for top spotd with below average sides by just plugging it in and hitting continue. It shifts the odds here and there in your favor but there's a limit. For a start, there is ample evidence that players can pull lots of stuff through. This was on a prior edition, but not long ago I sat 9 men behind the ball and made them hoof the ball to Messi, who would still create opportunity due to his dribbling. There is therefore a reason why Barcelona is hard to contain if he's actually given some support, no matter what you do. Additionally there is lots of evidence that in FM by and large, the better equipped sides just win. Naturally mid-table things get a bit more complicated, as the gap in quality isn't that large -- and in real football too purely random chance can contribute hugely to a side finishing 7th or 14th. That really good players can totally outperform the AI internal logics naturally is also another thing (it's an exploit of a different kind, if you will).

There is also a lot of evidence in real football under bad management, even good teams may underperform, and the same holds true in FM also. What FM doesn't spoon feed is indeed the internally logics it attempts to reward. Again going back to the Watford match, you realize that with more aggressive movement between the lines, you are harder to defend against, that is the logics that is put into FM. However you sticked to your conservative backs simply because it was your plan to do so. You got exactly what you deserved and targeted in that match, which was "risking" that it ended in but a draw as you were struggling to break down. You realize the logics, from my experience that is how AI tactics operate also, but your conclusions seem to be completely alien in terms of match context. And positioning which you can change as often as you like on the fly, that's also a lot more simplified in FM, where stuff repeats pretty much exactly on each spell of possession. What may be complicating the game is you. I know lots of guys who never watch a thing, they simply stick to entry level guides that have a reasonably "balanced" tactics covered, ensuring movement and multiple chance types are created, which is covered in 30 seconds. They never change from match to match. What's missing is an updated one off wwfan's 12 step thing, and he used to argue himself that FM purely tactically supports both kind of managers, the tinkerer and him who doesn't. However, really poorly thought out setups from the ground-up or those lacking bite should and would struggle somewhere.

About keeping it simple, if you are sacked on each of your saves early on, simply letting the assistant take over match days would have probably never lead to such guaranteed sackings (I test them every year how they would cope for fun).

PS: From my brief experience, lots of formations outright toy with the 4-4-2 as it is modeled into FM 2017 by now. The two central midfielders appear much more isolated than previous, and the most common formations have at least three, and they are running circles around them. Was already partly brought up by a few others, I can only imagine what that 4-4-2 deep would have looked like where the DMs would drop deeper on top off that, gifting a midfield trio even more space to toy around in, but that's not your fault. I expect this to be adressed some, you noted this too as the Watford DM could control possession with ease.

 

[Loversleaper]

looping: if you watch the match again where Barca won that match 5-0, which was one of Mourinho's early matches against Barca, then you should see how high Real were pressing Barca. When you see the following matches, Mourinho clearly has Real sitting much deeper restricting space for Barca and trying to hit them on the counter (which made Mourinho inevitably unpopular with Real supporters and board members). Mourinho quickly adapted and actually forced some decent results by playing this way. You can argue that Casillas played badly, but to change your entire tactical gameplay later on because of the goalkeeper seems highly unlikely.

 

The pressing/mentality aspect is just one of the ways that SI have tried to mimic real life football and bring it into the game - hence the mentality (strategy) and the Defensive Line/Pressing attributes. Do I think that the game represents real life : not entirely. Do they (SI) have work to do to make the ME better: most definitely. Having said that, it still is totally possible in this game to have success. You can achieve quite a lot with simple means, in fact, as Svenc can easily demonstrate if he so wishes to, the ME has quite a few (worrying) weaknesses. You cannot expect that you should be able to play in one certain way and achieve total success because then you can argue that if you play (for example) Call Of Duty - then you should be able to sit behind a barrel somewhere and win every round. Sometimes you have to move into other areas to achieve your objectives...

 

I mean this with no means of being critical towards you or others in this thread. If I can have relative success with this game, then I am sure that others can easily do the same...

[Banana-Rama]

12 hours ago, looping said:

There is no reason to insult.

 

12 hours ago, looping said:

I thing i can't apply my vision to fm. Fm thinks like guardiola and other stupid managers. They think they are the center of football.

no reason to insult??? you just called josep guardiola stupid, i think that qualifies as an insult. who are you to say that about guardiola by the way, you can't even win matches on fm and your calling a manager that is at the cutting edge of modern football stupid. you can't go around posting that kind of ignorant trash and not expect to be pulled up on it.

12 hours ago, looping said:

On top of that, fm thinks like Guardiola and others. They think football is a game where matches are won or lost due to tactical decisions. This is not true. At no level. It simply doesn't happen. Football results depend more on luck or weather conditions than tactical decisions.

you have not managed a football club at any level so stop presuming to know more about football then world class managers, guardiola has won multiple league titles in spain and germany and is a two time champions league winner, your a guy that is losing on fm, i think a reality check is in order.

12 hours ago, looping said:

I explained politely my opinion and i didn't say tactics are not important. But tactics are not the magic key to success. There are other much more important elements than moving players position and saying strange things.

you only think the things being said are strange because you don't understand them, its your lack of understanding that is the problem. an albert einstein lecture would probably seem strange to a monkey, that doesn't mean the monkey is smarter.

12 hours ago, looping said:

I don't know what I don't understand.

i couldn't of said it better myself

On 09/11/2016 at 20:13, looping said:

 

I explained why I changed. Not exactly blew it up because it wasn't historically defensive.

Anyway, in that save, before being sacked, I came back to my initial tactic. 

I knew, from the first moment, this was going nowhere, even when my results were decent.

the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result 

[herne79]

If people want to post here, post constructively or not at all.

If you want to come here and try to help @looping then do so.  If you want to have little digs, don't.

[thomas_e]

12 hours ago, looping said:

 

There is no reason to insult.

I explained politely my opinion and i didn't say tactics are not important. But tactics are not the magic key to success. There are other much more important elements than moving players position and saying strange things.

IMO, tactics mean have the right players in the right positions and doing what they are able to do. Peter Crouch is a good player but is not a winger. Peter Crouch is a good striker but not a trequartista. Peter Crouch is a good striker but it's stupid to send through balls for him to run. Tactics are rational decisions, not the game of chess. 

Once you place your players in the right positions and make them do what they best do,   the tactical job is done. In fact, doing more than this is overcomplicating and may kill the quality of your players. The best that a manager can do is not bother their players with strange instructions.. You  can give advice or say "be careful with that, pay attention to that...." But treating players like robots is what I think is wrong.

I don't know where are you from and if you know who Juanma Lillo is. Well, he is the perfect exemple. He overcomplicates things so much that confuses his players. This is what I think most of the managers do nowadays, to some extent. And, as long as I understand (I may be wrong, i want to learn), fm is forcing me to act like Juanma Lillo to have success.

Fortunately, IRL matches are not won or lost due to tactical decisions.

If you want to understand, fine. If you come here to insult me, better shut up.

No, Peter Crouch is not a winger. We agree on that for sure! But Ramsey isn't a natural defensive midfielder and Walcott is a natural winger not a wide midfielder, but you are still playing them there. Even though the difference between playing Ramsey as a DM instead of a CM is less severe than having Crouch as a playmaker of course. 

"Once you place your players in the right positions and make them do what they best do, the tactical job is done". That's kind of right and wrong at the same time. It's wrong because the tactical job isn't done before kick off as football is also about reacting to how the oppositons behave. Say if you hit a lot of crosses and maybe focus on playing down the flanks. Then you play against another top team, but they surprisingly play with a much deeper defensive line than you would expect. If they do, would you still try to attack using crosses when the penalty area will be heavily populated by defensive players? You can, of course, there is no clear answer to anything, but I personally wouldn't recommend it. And do you really know how to tell players what to do, getting out there potential? In your Arsenal save, you are playing Ramsey, Chamberlain and Walcott in positions they are uncomfortable in. How is that telling them to do what they do best? And no, that is not an insult, that is a fact (I would say Arsenal scream 4-2-3-1 but that is another discussion). I see a lot of people in here that overcomplicates things with team and player instructions (not that i'm an expert, but I've played the game for many, many years and get good results in every edition). To be fair, you don't seem to go crazy in that department, but the point is still valid. I see for example a lot of people have the instruction "Work ball into box", not giving it any thought, but it sounds good, so they'll use it. 

 

You can play FM in an advanced way, or you can make it more simple. Even though it's generalising, you can say that is the difference between English coaches and Europen/South American coaches in real life. Guys like Alan Pardew, Steve Bruce and certainly Harry Redknapp seems to rely heavily on motivation and fighting spirit. Tactis and with Redknapp especially, right players in the right tactic, is not his first priority. This is also the way people seem to be talking about the English national side when they fail. "They don't care about the shirt", "they play for themselves" etc etc. While in Argentina, Spain and Italy for example, the focus is a lot more towards the tactical side of the game. Rafa Benitez said he got more questions about tactics at his first press conference at Napoli than in all his years in England. Even if that is not completely true, it speaks a valid point. In Italy, they believe tactics decide a match, in England its spirit, momentum and then tactics. Yes, im generalising, but I do believe I have a point. I think there is a middle ground here, but the point I'm trying to make is that tactics matter, and looking at world football today, it matters more than ever. Just like it matters in other team sports, football isn't unique here at all. And looking at how the English national team are doing and how English managers are doing, I would say the more tactical route works. 

 

FM doesn't force you to behave like Juanma Lillo.  I'm sorry, but it doesn't. I know who he is, but don't know him in-depth, so will not debate that with you, but of course there are coaches who overcomplicate things. There are good and bad coaches, no doubt about that! You say that football is 80% about the players and 5% manager decisions (among other stuff of course). How can you say that and believe it? And then, I'm sorry, why are you or anyone playing FM if thats the case? Wrong manager decisions can ruin gameplans and limit players in reaching their in-game potential. Just as clever tactics and understanding the way they work can be golden. Was it 80% players that won Leicester the league? Or Greece the Euro's? And look at Leicester now, with an improved squad, why are they out of the title race already? The underdog momentum surely plays a part, we are talking about humans, but its still good players, but now teams are reacting to the way they play. In some cases, like early round cup games, the gap in football/physical ability is to big for the smaller teams to have a chance. But look at Real Madrid in the last years of the first Florentino Perez reign. They had players that were clearly not fitting into a system and they played absolutel rubbish. Yes, they won a lot of domestic games because of player ability, but got knocked out in the first knockout stage of the Champions League time and time again as they completely lacked team balance and had absolutely to defensive stability. Having Gravesen instead of Makalele was probably not a good idea, in retrospect.. 

 

Only a few years ago, FM was easier for people who didn't know a lot about the game (not talking about you, talking general FM). You had these "supertactics" that worked almost universally. It could be a 4-4-2, 4-3-3, doesn't matter, it worked! It was very much plug-and-play. You also, in one version I remember, had different types of pressure that you could apply to each player role and the team defendes brilliantly. This was at the time when you had the classic "bars", not team/player instructions. Football wise it made no sense, but people used it and won. The same went for corner kick set ups and for certain player roles. Some versions crosses has been unrealisticly good and some times playing passes into space for a poacher were the big thing. In FM16 and now in FM17, it seems to be pretty balanced, and I thank SI for bringing us such a fantastic game! Still people are asking users to upload their tactics file when someone has had success. Many people upload it, for then to be critizised and almost harassed when other users cant copy their success. It's an absurd thing to watch, but I guess its beacuse a lot of people care a great deal about succeeding in FM, as its not like FIFA or any other games where experience automatically makes you good. It's about being good and knowing the game of football. I have also uploaded a tactic that I had great success with after request, got called an idiot after about 30 minutes. It was amusing to see that the guy trying it had no wingers and got mad because a tactic that focused on playing wide and down the flanks didn't work for him. My point is, everyone needs to play the game their own way. Asking other for help? Absolutely, no one here knows all the answers, I certainly dont, but the blueprint needs to made by the user himself. You can play very reactive, trying to adapt constantly to the oppsoition, or you can try and make general tactics for both control/counter and try to play more to your own strengths. I personally focus more on opposition instructions than changing my tactic, as I think having players familiar with the tactic is absolutely essential in FM. Maybe this takes a little bit longer than it should? Don't know, but maybe! When starting a new save, I don't expect a lot during the first games (or try to!! ) because I know that when players are only maybe 70% familiar with the tactic, we don't play 100%. What I also think is very important, where FM also helps you, is using players (and signing) that fit into the player roles of a certain system.

 

Right now I'm playing with Parma. We got promoted my first year from Serie C to Serie B, which in all honestly was a little bit lucky. I wanted to play a 3-5-2 wingback formation, as I think its a tactic that covers a lot of space and gives you numeral advantage in midfield and in defense, especially against a flat 4-4-2. I also want to want to play a "classic Italian system" and build my team with Italian players, including the ones that come through the youth system. To be fair, I didn't have enough good central defenders to make it work, and my left footed CD was so bad I almost hold a grudge to him in real life now. But we had great wing backs and a couple of decent central midfielders that carried us to the top of the league. But when I was struggling, I found myself making small changes to my tactic that really didn't make any sense. I guess in a way I was searching for answers that weren't even there. But what I did do well is that after a few months I stuck to the system that I had chosen, and I started using players that were best suited to the roles I wanted to have. That meant dropping a couple of good players in midfield since they couldn't play as a box-to-box or central midfield (attack). I also dropped my top goal scorer since he was too slow too play behind the defence. Even my best full back was dropped, because I needed someone who could deliver good crosses to my tall strikers, and my first choise at the beginning werent doing it! Parma obviously has the foundation to be promoted, this wasn't a fantastic achievement by any means, but at least I'm happy that I stuck to my tactic and had a plan for what I was doing. I did the same thing with Dorchester on FM16, on Dafuqe's Challenge, I found a way that I wanted to play (4-2-3-1, one with control, one with counter) and bought players to fit into the roles, not signing them based on their name or previous performances. That gave me three consecutive promotions at one point, from League 2 to the Premier League, where one of the players signed was a striker that had scored 2 goals in 30 games in League 2 for another team, ending up as my top goal scorer in League 1. Think he got 25 goals, what a man! For me a classic example of signing players based on certain tactical principles, and emphasizing on how the individuals and their abilities will fit into the team as a whole. Not throwing them in there and hoping for the best, which you have done with your Arsenal team. I don't mean any offence by that, but that seems to be what have happened, sorry. This post was maybe too long and probably didn't always make sense, but hopefully there was a point in there or two.

 

You say: "Fortunately, IRL matches are not won or lost due to tactical decisions" - You can take it a critisism if you want, but if you don't think tactics matter a lot in real life football, you are wrong I'm afraid. I know it does, and people here will generally agree. 

 

I would recommend, in addition to the excellent guides that people have been writing, to take a look at Jonathan Wilson's book "Inverting the Pyramid". This is a comprehensive and well written book about the tactical evolution in football. It's a good read for both enjoyment and learning. 

[Shameless1]

Little  ot:

How can u have your team shape with arrows on the screen?

End ot

[AvidFMer]

@looping Try changing the fullbacks to Wingbacks on support duty. That could give your wide midfielders better support.

[looping]

14 hours ago, Svenc said:

 

 

 

13 hours ago, Loversleaper said:

 

 

3 hours ago, thomas_e said:

 

 

2 hours ago, AvidFMer said:

 

Thanks for your answers. What I'm going to do this weekend is to create a new tactic, saving the most important principles of my 442. I have no other option: give up or try again.

 

6 hours ago, herne79 said:

 

Thanks. If I did or say anything against you in the past, I want to publicly apologize. I was wrong with you.

 

9 hours ago, Banana-Rama said:

 

 

Sorry my friend. I didn't know you were a Guardiola groupie.

 

2 hours ago, Shameless1 said:

Little  ot:

How can u have your team shape with arrows on the screen?

End ot

this11.com

[Shameless1]

37 minutes ago, looping said:

 

 

 

Thanks for your answers. What I'm going to do this weekend is to create a new tactic, saving the most important principles of my 442. I have no other option: give up or try again.

 

Thanks. If I did or say anything against you in the past, I want to publicly apologize. I was wrong with you.

 

Sorry my friend. I didn't know you were a Guardiola groupie.

 

this11.com

It's a skin playable on fm 2017?

[looping]

5 hours ago, Shameless1 said:

It's a skin playable on fm 2017?

No idea. I never use different skins.

[looping]

22 hours ago, Svenc said:

PS: From my brief experience, lots of formations outright toy with the 4-4-2 as it is modeled into FM 2017 by now. The two central midfielders appear much more isolated than previous, and the most common formations have at least three, and they are running circles around them. Was already partly brought up by a few others, I can only imagine what that 4-4-2 deep would have looked like where the DMs would drop deeper on top off that, gifting a midfield trio even more space to toy around in, but that's not your fault. I expect this to be adressed some, you noted this too as the Watford DM could control possession with ease.

Before I continue flogging a dead horse...

Is 442 unplayable with this ME?

[herne79]

9 hours ago, looping said:

Before I continue flogging a dead horse...

Is 442 unplayable with this ME?

No, not unplayable.

[looping]

Ok. Let's try again.

My team is Malaga. I started a season on april 2017 to make some transfers.

First of all, How I want to play?

Draw your tactical diagram with this11.com

I dropped one of my strikers to amc strata because strikers don't track back and I need an additional player helping my central midfielders. The basic idea is the same than I've already posted several times.

 

Roles and duties

Goalie - Goalkeeper. Again, just a plain old fashioned 'keeper. No need for sweeper keepers as I don't plan on playing with a particularly high line.

Centre Backs - Central Defender (defend) x 2. Nothing fancy here. They just need to defend and pass the ball to the keeper, fullbacks or midfield. No need for risk taking ball playing defenders or a stopper/cover combination.

Fullbacks - Fullback (support). Primarily defensive, they need to get up the left flank to provide support behind the ball. I also want them to exploit the space that my more attacking player may leave down the flanks.

Right Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). The midfield destroyer. The intention here is for someone to actively get in the face of the opposition midfield to break up attacks.

Left Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (support). My runner and creator. I'm not sure about this role. An AP-su won't provide me enough cover, a dlp-su would be too static and a roaming playmaker has the dribble more PI. I'll start with a more neutral role and we'll see.

Right and left wings - Wide midfielder (attack). I want them to do a bit of everything. I want to run, cross, dribble, yes but not only. I also want them to be a goal threat and move into narrow positions to open some space down the flanks. I also want them to contribute defending.

Attacking midfielder -  Attacking midfielder (support). I want him to oper between midfielder and my striker. I want him to link, come deep to get the ball and be a goal threat, moving vertically and playing risky passes to player moving around him. I also want him to help my midfielders closing down opponent midfielders and defenders.

Striker - Advanced Forward. This is the spearhead of the attack, and I want him to be primarily goal focussed. I'm not sure about this role. I'm afraid of him being isolated.

 

Shape and mentality

Shape -  Team Shape is simply about individual player creativity and space. More structured systems have less creativity and more space, more fluid systems the opposite. I will use Structured shape which has low creativity and more space. 442 has already big space between lines so I'll have to think about it later.

Mentality - I don't want to go to an extreme scale, so I discard Contain, defensive, attacking and overload. You know I like low risk tactics, so I'll use counter mentality, but that doesn't mean I want to play counterattacking. I won't complain if counterattacks are triggered but that is not the main plan. I want 2 solid banks of four when defending and a more patient style when attacking. I only use counter because it's the lowest of the normal mentalities.

 

Team instructions

I will only use TI if they are needed. From what I have now, I get 2 conclusions: a) Counter mentality has direct passing at back,which conflicts with my patient style and b) 442+Structured creates big spaces and potential gaps between players. For these reasons, I will use 2 TI, Play out the defense and Push higher up, so I will counteract direct passing at back and space between defense and midfield will be reduced. After playing previous matches, I've noted my players are a bit contemplative, allowing the opponents to move the ball so I will also tell them to close down more.

 

Player instructions

- Goalies can waste silly amounts of possession by just hoofing it up the pitch. I tell him to:

Distribute to Fullbacks

Roll It Out

Slow Pace Down

- Centre Backs - Central Defender (defend). With the close down more TI, I'm afraid they will lose their position chasing opponents.

Close down less

- Fullbacks - Fullback (support).  I want them to provide support behind the ball. I also want them to exploit the space that my more attacking player may leave down the flanks.

Get further forward

- Right Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). I want my central midfielder (support) to be my creator so I'll remove risky passes from his partner in central midfield.

Fewer risky passes

- Attacking midfielder -  Attacking midfielder (support). I want him to feed my striker so

More risky passes

 

Potential issues

- Is my AM linking midfielders and striker?

- Are my fullbacks getting further forward? In that case, is there space open for their runs? Are my wide midfielders leaving that space?

- Are my wide midfielders running, dribbling and crossing? Is there anybody inside the box to finish crosses?

- My left fullback has no cover if he bombs forward (right side, there is a cm-de). Is he leaving too much space there?

- Is my striker isolated?

 

Do you see any other potential issue? 

 

[Draktor]

@looping I have prepared a video that may help you out. I used to struggle just the same as you but have come through the other side.

A few notes though on it:

• Sorry for the music, I didn't realise it would make it into the video
• Rashidi's youtube that I refer to in the video is BustTheNet
• I didn't in the video but you should look at player rating and take off players who are performing poorly
• When going Attacking in the video I would normally put on prevent short GK distribution, you can check my 4312 thread for some of the tactic creator combinations I use
• I just uploaded it so may take a little bit to turn 1080p

Please let me know if it is useful to you.

 

Daily motion backup in case anything happens to the youtube video:

 

[Loversleaper]

looping, several points:

 

1: Personally, I think playing with wide midfielders on Attack Duty in a more defensive mentality Strategy (which Counter is) is going to cause problems - and I say this out of experience. Better to have them on Support duty to bring their mentalities closer to the team's mentality - and you simply give them going forward more in the individual settings. This would definitely strengthen the tactic and the wide men will still attack, so you don't need to worry about getting forward enough - think of it more in lines of them getting forward at the right times instead of just bombing down the flanks while your team are (mentality-wise) trying to play a more cautious, robust form of football.

 

2: Another personal experience is that having  a lone striker on Attack duty (regardless of the team's mentality) usually gets disconnected with the rest of the team. Usually in this situation of having no one really supporting your lone striker, like the pushed up wingers/inside forwards or a striker partner provides, then better find a solution that doesn't involve 'risky passes'.

 

3: I really hope you understand the aspect of how the AI opponents play against your team over a longer periode of time. Playing Counter might do well to start with because the AI managers will see you as an unexperienced manager and try to attack you (and Malaga's reputation is mediocre at best which contributes to this as well). If you do well, then at one point the opponent will sit more back - at this point you will, no doubt, experience hardships in trying to counter attack a team that are not opening that possibility for you. The AI's change (mentality/strategy) in how it reacts to your team has been the cornerstone of countless threads where people are asking "does the AI crack your tactics?". If you do not understand this aspect, then again with your new attempt at the game you are simply setting yourself up for another difficult ride...

 

 

[LATB]

"Football is not complex" 

22 players on one pitch all with different mentalities and decision making. The variables are enormous it's incredibly complex. 

[Guest]

6 hours ago, Draktor said:

@looping I have prepared a video that may help you out. I used to struggle just the same as you but have come through the other side.

A few notes though on it:

• Sorry for the music, I didn't realise it would make it into the video
• Rashidi's youtube that I refer to in the video is BustTheNet
• I didn't in the video but you should look at player rating and take off players who are performing poorly
• When going Attacking in the video I would normally put on prevent short GK distribution, you can check my 4312 thread for some of the tactic creator combinations I use
• I just uploaded it so may take a little bit to turn 1080p

Please let me know if it is useful to you.

 

Daily motion backup in case anything happens to the youtube video:

 

I also play this way, also influenced by Rashidi and it just works... I made an Atletico Madrid 442 roles & duties setup and use mentality & team shape settings as shown in this video and numerous videos from Rashidi and it works.. I've made Leicester roles & duties setup and used mentality & team shape and that worked for me too
If he's reading this, I'd like to thank Rashidi for all his work both on YT and this forum, and his website and twitter account, wherever - thanks a lot!

[Rashidi]

19 hours ago, looping said:

Ok. Let's try again.

 

Right Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). The midfield destroyer. The intention here is for someone to actively get in the face of the opposition midfield to break up attacks.

Then this will happen depending on how far the whole team is on the pitch, where he begins to work as a destroyer depends entirely on your mentality and defensive line

Quote

Left Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (support). My runner and creator. I'm not sure about this role. An AP-su won't provide me enough cover, a dlp-su would be too static and a roaming playmaker has the dribble more PI. I'll start with a more neutral role and we'll see.

Right and left wings - Wide midfielder (attack). I want them to do a bit of everything. I want to run, cross, dribble, yes but not only. I also want them to be a goal threat and move into narrow positions to open some space down the flanks. I also want them to contribute defending.

Players who do everything aren't WM, these players tend to be more...balanced. You seem to want them to do "everything possible". I just don't think you can have everything, because you are asking for a spread of attributes that you simply won't find in the game for one specific player, and you want it for this entire group. The question you should ask yourself is how do I get them to do what I want with what I have. If your players have low teamwork and work rate, you can kiss this goodbye. So look at the attributes first. Then once you know the kind of players you have then you begin to identify whether they have the skill to perform.

If you look at Klopp's Liverpool, its no wonder that his team covers the most yardage in the game now. If you want to do something similar then you need to focus on prioritising attributes then deciding if you have the right players for the job.

Quote

Attacking midfielder -  Attacking midfielder (support). I want him to oper between midfielder and my striker. I want him to link, come deep to get the ball and be a goal threat, moving vertically and playing risky passes to player moving around him. I also want him to help my midfielders closing down opponent midfielders and defenders.

Striker - Advanced Forward. This is the spearhead of the attack, and I want him to be primarily goal focussed. I'm not sure about this role. I'm afraid of him being isolated.

 

I thought you set your striker up as an AMC?, He won't be goal focused as an AMC, in fact you may havre some serious issues. You will need to proactively play with Shape in the game.

Quote

 

Shape and mentality

Shape -  Team Shape is simply about individual player creativity and space. More structured systems have less creativity and more space, more fluid systems the opposite. I will use Structured shape which has low creativity and more space. 442 has already big space between lines so I'll have to think about it later.

Shape is about getting players to work as a unit. At the lowest levels of Shape they work as distinct units focused on their duties, on higher levels of Shape, they are more likely to abandon this strict discipline, instead working largely as one group. This runs the risk of a team often losing shape during transitions at the expense of trying something more creative to unlock oppositions. A team with a lower shape tends to demand a higher amount of individual brilliance and skill to unlock opponents whereas a team with higher shape settings needs a great deal of teamwork and physical attributes

While you have indicated that you understand some aspects of Shape, I doubt you have understood its wider ramifications. At the moment, the AI will change shape and mentality on you in a game. If it thinks it needs a goal, it could go attacking/fluid to get a goal back. If it thinks it wants to take less risks it will settle on standard/flexible.

Mentality and Shape are barometers in the game. And they are simple to set up. At lower shape levels you do need to have a playmaker or someone who can string passes together in midfield for example, and you will need players upfront who can hold on to the ball and pass it on if required/

 

Quote

Mentality - I don't want to go to an extreme scale, so I discard Contain, defensive, attacking and overload. You know I like low risk tactics, so I'll use counter mentality, but that doesn't mean I want to play counterattacking. I won't complain if counterattacks are triggered but that is not the main plan. I want 2 solid banks of four when defending and a more patient style when attacking. I only use counter because it's the lowest of the normal mentalities.

Why? You are limiting yourself. There is absolutely no need to discard mentality. In fact when you do, you are limiting your team itself. When you choose to sit on one mentality you are forcing your side to approach the game on one mindset regardless of change. For example, your team could be a goal down, would your team have any urgency to come back? No. Your team will change its posture if you decide to make changes. 

Some people change tactics which I find unnecessary. If you set one tactic up with the right combination of roles/duties, then you can just play the same game with different M/S settings. Furthermore you can even change specific roles for greater effect. 

For example, you could play a 433, with one IF and a W in the final strata with a CF(A). Say you want to increase flank pressure on one side where they have FB on a yellow card, you could turn that player into an IF and change the other to a W, you could swap, or you could just change both roles to W and change on CM to (A) to get him surging into the box.

There are plenty of options at your disposal,  but limiting your mentality isn't one of them. In fact playing with one mentality setting is like playing with one tactic. In reality if you watch any modern football game, no manager plays with one tactic. The teams sway from one system to another in a game. They have different emphases in one match. We have been trying to get the AI to that level for years, and I believe we are merely a few match engines away from that. When that day finally comes you will need to be able to adapt quickly.

Quote

 

Team instructions

I will only use TI if they are needed. From what I have now, I get 2 conclusions: a) Counter mentality has direct passing at back,which conflicts with my patient style and b) 442+Structured creates big spaces and potential gaps between players. For these reasons, I will use 2 TI, Play out the defense and Push higher up, so I will counteract direct passing at back and space between defense and midfield will be reduced. After playing previous matches, I've noted my players are a bit contemplative, allowing the opponents to move the ball so I will also tell them to close down more.

When your players are not closing down, thats a function of their defensive line and how far they are from their "trigger point". When you are playing any game, you should be looking to identify these trigger zones, and these invariably are a function of mentality and defensive line. To this day I HAVE NEVER USED the closing down slider in the TI, there is absolutely no need to mess with it.

Quote

Player instructions

- Goalies can waste silly amounts of possession by just hoofing it up the pitch. I tell him to:

Distribute to Fullbacks

Roll It Out

Slow Pace Down

Good, I do the same to, though this engine has a proclivity to see my GK have a mind of his own, or it could be just Joe Hart.

 

Quote

- Centre Backs - Central Defender (defend). With the close down more TI, I'm afraid they will lose their position chasing opponents.

Close down less

Default is fine. The CD is balanced well already, the only reason they will go in early is if your midfielders are poor. In other words if you see them leave their lines to soon, then its the MC who you need to focus on. Why are they not picking the players up in time?

 

Quote

- Fullbacks - Fullback (support).  I want them to provide support behind the ball. I also want them to exploit the space that my more attacking player may leave down the flanks.

Get further forward

That shout is dangerous. A FB will ALWAYS exploit space on support, if there is space to exploit, but when you use that shout you are telling them proactively to have a higher starting position which will not help with their "support behind the ball' thing you want them to do.

Quote

- Right Sided Midfielder - Central Midfielder (defend). I want my central midfielder (support) to be my creator so I'll remove risky passes from his partner in central midfield.

Fewer risky passes

You can also set that CM to play short passes and dribble less. You can also choose to set him up as a DLP on support, otherwise you need to make a lot of PI changes to your creator.

 

I won't deal with any of your other issues, there are plenty of potential ones, but like I have said in the past, you need to accept that sometimes your vision needs to change before you can effect suitable change.

 

 

[BojanVu]

I was playing with AC Milan on Beta four season with 4-4-2 (4-4-1-1) and won 3 titles and one League Champions.

First shape:

I read many article from Cleon about attacking, possesion and counter playing and all videos from Rashidi Torino diares. My game based on just one shape and I have chosen very fluid mentality when playing 4-4-2 or 4-4-1-1. 

Why very fluid for me. Simply i want  this:

- the most compact shape possible, by reducing the difference between the mentalities of attacking or defensive players

-instructs our whole team to attack and defend as a unit

- higher creative freedom

Mentality:

I chosen standard and control. Why?

When playing home against team like Inter Juventus Roma my game is based on starting mentality because I want carefully balancing risk and rewards, carefully watching match and decide if i want to attacking my opponents if he playing bedly or controling game if i have domination and have good results.

When playing away against teams like Crotone Sassuolo Udinese just playing my stabdard very fluid game.

In the end if  you want to playing 4-4-2 your players must have 15+ teamwork and work rate .

[Shameless1]

On 12/11/2016 at 15:34, Draktor said:

@looping I have prepared a video that may help you out. I used to struggle just the same as you but have come through the other side.

A few notes though on it:

• Sorry for the music, I didn't realise it would make it into the video
• Rashidi's youtube that I refer to in the video is BustTheNet
• I didn't in the video but you should look at player rating and take off players who are performing poorly
• When going Attacking in the video I would normally put on prevent short GK distribution, you can check my 4312 thread for some of the tactic creator combinations I use
• I just uploaded it so may take a little bit to turn 1080p

Please let me know if it is useful to you.

 

Daily motion backup in case anything happens to the youtube video:

 

OT

How can u write  make circles in game?

 

EOT

[Shameless1]

@BojanVu

 

How can u tell us that u need 15 in workrate attribute to play  a 442? That has not any sense for me.  Could you explain it please?

[BojanVu]

10 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

@BojanVu

 

How can u tell us that u need 15 in workrate attribute to play  a 442? That has not any sense for me.  Could you explain it please?

Work ethic is very important for me in 4-4-2 and in other tactic because in case how i did explained in my post, team is a unit working  as One.. 

Wing backs high stamina + work rate + corssing  will  increase their effectiveness

Central Midfielders must have a high work rate because he will be charging around, picking up all the loose balls and closing down attackers.

 If you have a lazy guy in any of these positions it will kill your team because if you playing against teams who have in the middle 3 or 4 players you will lose your battle if you have lazy players.

[Shameless1]

52 minutes ago, BojanVu said:

Work ethic is very important for me in 4-4-2 and in other tactic because in case how i did explained in my post, team is a unit working  as One.. 

Wing backs high stamina + work rate + corssing  will  increase their effectiveness

Central Midfielders must have a high work rate because he will be charging around, picking up all the loose balls and closing down attackers.

 If you have a lazy guy in any of these positions it will kill your team because if you playing against teams who have in the middle 3 or 4 players you will lose your battle if you have lazy players.

Ok but what about skilful players that has not an high work rate?

I think that it's not 442..it's mental attributes. 

But again what about messi? Wr 7. Hes is skilful i think

 

So the problem it's, 

 

for example:

 

How do you fit players in their best postions inside a tactic  plan? Do you have to balance,  right?

4example what do u think  about a 4231 - 

 

LFb support

Cd defend

 

Rfb support

 

-------------

Ddp defend

Rmplaymaker

-------------------

OR

Dlp s

Cm defend

--------

Ap attack

--------------

 

Left inside  forwaRd support

 

Right winger support

------------------

Dlf support

Or

Advanced forward attack.

---------

 

Maybe the couple dlp defend and roaming playmaker support are not balanced because  u have the roaming playmaker  that will go up higher on the pitch leaving the dlp alone. But if your best players are these what do u do? 

Giving more general close down playing a control style with a high defensive  line?

I want to speak about tactics

 

 

[looping]

On 12/11/2016 at 14:28, looping said:

Ok. Let's try again.

My team is Malaga. I started a season on april 2017 to make some transfers.

First of all, How I want to play?

Draw your tactical diagram with this11.com

I dropped one of my strikers to amc strata because strikers don't track back and I need an additional player helping my central midfielders. The basic idea is the same than I've already posted several times.

This is just to remind everybody I'm not playing 442 anymore.

Later I'll write a post explaining some changes I want to implement after your answers. Never enough gratitude.

[BojanVu]

2 minutes ago, Shameless1 said:

Ok but what about skilful players that has not an high work rate?

I think that it's not 442..it's mental attributes. 

But again what about messi? Wr 7. Hes is skilful i think

 

So the problem it's for example.

 

How to fit players in their best postions inside a tactic  plan? If u you have to balance  right?

4example what do u think  about a 4231 - 

 

LFb support

Cddefend

 

Rfb support

 

-------------

Ddp defend

Rplaymaker

-------------------

OR

Dlp s

Cm defend

--------

Ap attack

--------------

 

Left inside  forwaRd support

 

Right winger support

------------------

Dlf support

Or

Advanced forward attack.

---------

 

Maybe the couple dlp defend and rpl support are not balanced because  u have the roaming playmaker  that will go up higher on the pitch leaving the dlp alone. But if your best player are these what do u do?

Giving more general close down playing a control style with a high defensive  line?

I want to speak about tactics

 

 

About tactic all is important. Look at Chelsea . Conte specific tactic from Juventus to Chelsea. Van Gaal last year was not successful with tactics because he hasn't players like Matic and Kante. In croatia we calling that players '' Radilice'' (crankshaft) on the pitch

About 4231 is same things...

This is how I playing in Milan. In first season with small buget i won Seria A.

In second season I bought some players and doing very well.

 

 

[Shameless1]

For conte is alonso and the other nigerian player  that  makes the differences

Bacause they are runners and have an high workrate  and teamwork. 

He transformed azpiliqueta from full back to a central defender.

 

Chelsea does not leave spaces to play is pretty aggressive and plays short/mixed pass.

But  tell me how can a full  back with  low crosses quality and low dribbling  skills attack ?

 Have pezzella in palermo and  always he loose the ball trying to dribble.

So what  u think  about?

 

[looping]

I found very interesting your contributions but please, keep on topic.