Tactical help on a high press 4-4-2 with Inter Milan

[thedrdrive]

HI all,

With FM17 just out, I was itching to start with my favorite team, Inter Milan. As I looked at my players and stats, my tactical mind was churning...

 

We are a pacey and physically fit team, with great passing and solid technical skills. So I figure a high-press, high tempo Klopp-style will suit us well. I want to control the game, win back possession, and be fluid in my attack. Offensively (as with any other manager of Inter I imagine), I need to optimize around striker Mauro Icardi, who is a clinical finisher and a classic Advanced Forward. 

So I set up a 4-4-2 partially inspired by this Strikerless post: https://strikerless.com/2016/09/26/dannys-definitive-4-4-2-a-k-a-my-magnum-opus-aint-perfect/

I edit the striker roles to advanced forward and DLF, and figure it's a great fit. Inter Milan have some strong DLF candidates with Jovetic & Eder, and a wide playmaker candidate in Candreva as well.

I try this out and it's a total bust. What's going wrong?

Offensively. we are getting the possession I want out of a Klopp system, and even getting a good number of shots on goal. But (as you can see from the shot chart), a lot of these efforts are long range. I find my players passing it around the box before settling with a useless long shot.

Defensively, I'm getting torn apart by through balls. Miranda and Murillo are just being beat plain and simple it seems. 

So I'm a little stuck and would appreciate your help! A few questions that I'm most interested in...

1. More generally, do you feel these tactics suit a team with pace, strong passing and strong technical skills?

2. Are my team instructions coherent and supporting the style of play I want?

3. Do you think my player roles are complementary and will help me achieve my desired style of play?

4. Any ideas for my offensive and defensive woes?

Seriously, I thought I was on my way to a good tactic here but got a little blindsided by the results! I would awesomely appreciate any help or advice. Anything from role or team instruction tweaks, to other suggestions - that would all be super helpful!

[noikeee]

Do your players have other options available to them, when they attempt these long range shots? Also I think Control + High Tempo is very very rushed, which could be leading to these poor decisions to just try to solve the match on their own.

Also if you're conceding too many goals from throughballs, I'd consider looking at that combo of Control + Push Higher Up + Close Down More as potentially too aggressive. Are your defenders quick enough to deal with such a high line?

[summatsupeer]

For me your setup is a bit too offensive:

• 442 leaves 2 players in advanced positions so requires the deeper 8 to be good defensively.  On Control+Flexible this is especially true as they will take risks to find space rather than playing safer and helping defend.
• Your asking both WB-S to get forward with a WP-A who will be roaming and W-A who will be pushing up, but you only have a DLP-D holding, how well does he and the 2xCD cover the flanks?
• To add to this you've also told your team to exploit the flanks which will encourage them to get forward even more than you have told them.  Your also playing a very high tempo on a forward thinking mentality so will try and exploit space before the defence get organized, but then with all this fast play and wide focus your playing narrower and want them to work the ball into the box?

5 shots on target out of 25 with only 1 clear chance (how many half chances?) I think is really bad, 20% accuracy where I prefer 40%+.  High Tempo + a high mentality is often a cause for this as your wanting the team to create things quickly, so will take what chances they get to shoot rather than working the ball around to create a better chance.  I recognize some of the names but can't recall the attributes (especially in 17) so can't say if suits your team or not.

I would:

1. Remove the exploit flank instructions.
2. I would have the WB-S behind the W-A be more conservative and support the Winger rather than looking to make runs himself.  This should add cover on the flank furthest from your single pivot holding player.
3. If you want to play fast and risky then let them get the ball into the danger area before the defence is organized so remove Work Ball Into Box.
4. If you want to wait for better chances then some combination of lowering the tempo, lowering the mentality and removing pass into space. 
5. Control starts your d-line in a medium-high block and presses in the opposing teams half, do you need to push higher?  Remember closing down more also increases your d-line.  Increasing your d-line also increases your pressing so you've actually increased your line+pressing a lot, if your defenders + sweeper keeper can't deal with that then maybe you need to give them less space to defend and instead get your forwards and wingers to close down more rather than having your whole team pushing up and close down more than the control defaults?

[daleuk8]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

For me your setup is a bit too offensive:

• 442 leaves 2 players in advanced positions so requires the deeper 8 to be good defensively.  On Control+Flexible this is especially true as they will take risks to find space rather than playing safer and helping defend.
• Your asking both WB-S to get forward with a WP-A who will be roaming and W-A who will be pushing up, but you only have a DLP-D holding, how well does he and the 2xCD cover the flanks?
• To add to this you've also told your team to exploit the flanks which will encourage them to get forward even more than you have told them.  Your also playing a very high tempo on a forward thinking mentality so will try and exploit space before the defence get organized, but then with all this fast play and wide focus your playing narrower and want them to work the ball into the box?

5 shots on target out of 25 with only 1 clear chance (how many half chances?) I think is really bad, 20% accuracy where I prefer 40%+.  High Tempo + a high mentality is often a cause for this as your wanting the team to create things quickly, so will take what chances they get to shoot rather than working the ball around to create a better chance.  I recognize some of the names but can't recall the attributes (especially in 17) so can't say if suits your team or not.

I would:

1. Remove the exploit flank instructions.
2. I would have the WB-S behind the W-A be more conservative and support the Winger rather than looking to make runs himself.  This should add cover on the flank furthest from your single pivot holding player.
3. If you want to play fast and risky then let them get the ball into the danger area before the defence is organized so remove Work Ball Into Box.
4. If you want to wait for better chances then some combination of lowering the tempo, lowering the mentality and removing pass into space. 
5. Control starts your d-line in a medium-high block and presses in the opposing teams half, do you need to push higher?  Remember closing down more also increases your d-line.  Increasing your d-line also increases your pressing so you've actually increased your line+pressing a lot, if your defenders + sweeper keeper can't deal with that then maybe you need to give them less space to defend and instead get your forwards and wingers to close down more rather than having your whole team pushing up and close down more than the control defaults?

442 is a formation I never seem to get correct. Particularly a defensive variant of it.

[thedrdrive]

6 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

For me your setup is a bit too offensive:

• 442 leaves 2 players in advanced positions so requires the deeper 8 to be good defensively.  On Control+Flexible this is especially true as they will take risks to find space rather than playing safer and helping defend.
• Your asking both WB-S to get forward with a WP-A who will be roaming and W-A who will be pushing up, but you only have a DLP-D holding, how well does he and the 2xCD cover the flanks?
• To add to this you've also told your team to exploit the flanks which will encourage them to get forward even more than you have told them.  Your also playing a very high tempo on a forward thinking mentality so will try and exploit space before the defence get organized, but then with all this fast play and wide focus your playing narrower and want them to work the ball into the box?

5 shots on target out of 25 with only 1 clear chance (how many half chances?) I think is really bad, 20% accuracy where I prefer 40%+.  High Tempo + a high mentality is often a cause for this as your wanting the team to create things quickly, so will take what chances they get to shoot rather than working the ball around to create a better chance.  I recognize some of the names but can't recall the attributes (especially in 17) so can't say if suits your team or not.

I would:

1. Remove the exploit flank instructions.
2. I would have the WB-S behind the W-A be more conservative and support the Winger rather than looking to make runs himself.  This should add cover on the flank furthest from your single pivot holding player.
3. If you want to play fast and risky then let them get the ball into the danger area before the defence is organized so remove Work Ball Into Box.
4. If you want to wait for better chances then some combination of lowering the tempo, lowering the mentality and removing pass into space. 
5. Control starts your d-line in a medium-high block and presses in the opposing teams half, do you need to push higher?  Remember closing down more also increases your d-line.  Increasing your d-line also increases your pressing so you've actually increased your line+pressing a lot, if your defenders + sweeper keeper can't deal with that then maybe you need to give them less space to defend and instead get your forwards and wingers to close down more rather than having your whole team pushing up and close down more than the control defaults?

@summatsupeer this is brilliant advice, thank you! I appreciate you helping to work this out with me.

Lo and behold, I made the changes you suggested and things look significantly better. Changes I made:

1.Mentality:  Changed to standard

2. Team instructions: Reduced defensive line to Normal, removed work ball into box, removed kicking it to the flanks

3. Changed a few player roles...my wingbacks are now fullbacks with support duty, so they can track back more.

What has worked: We are definitely stronger defensively, although through balls still defeat us on occasion (maybe my wingers should be pulled to support duty instead of attack?).

Offensively though, I find we are still having trouble hitting the mark. I'm noticing a tremendous number of long shots that aren't productive at all.

I've attached a few screenshots to show my new team instructions and roles and a few screenshots from my latest match against Sassuolo (a tie, where we were the favorites to win). You'll see the match stats, my shot chart, as well as a frustrating screenshot of Icardi taking an absurd long-range effort.

You'll also see screenshots of my team's physical, technical, and mental attributes, and a few of my main offensive players

Thanks a ton for all the wonderful help again. Now that I've sharpened the tactic a little, a few additional thoughts on my mind:

1. Do the new distribution of player roles seem right and balanced to you?

2. Any idea what could be causing my players to take such outrageous long shots? I recognize that the high tempo could be to blame, but I feel high tempo is crucial to the pressing style I want to play.

3. More generally, and I realize this is a tough question...but do you feel this tactic is about suited to the players I've got? Especially looking at my overall team stats, I figure we are an athletic and fast team suited to the high press. At the same time, I've got a half-mind to try out this Arrigo Sacchi tactic floating around...would this maybe suit better?

I really appreciate all the advice! It helped me take this tactic one HUGE step closer to the finish line, and hopefully I can get it to great condition soon!

 

[chrisw]

From the shot chart we can see who's taking those long shots, not just that there are long shots. The most common to my eye appear to be #6 Mario, #19 Banega and #87 Candreva.

Candreva and Banega both have the shoots from distance PPM, so that explains why they're taking those shots. Remember that PPMs take priority over tactical instructions, so even if you're telling someone to shoot less but they have that PPM, they will still try it regularly. You can try to unlearn the players these PPMs, and/or find other players to fill their slots whilst they're training to lose it.

Mario is a more curious question, is he your FK taker? That's what would make sense to me and isn't easily stopped as if a free-kick is a reasonable shooting opportunity then they'll ignore the routine instructions (something I find frustrating but hey ho hum).

To answer your question about the higher tempo, yes this could also be affecting the sheer amount of shots you're having. It's rushing the play, so the ball is moving forward quicker. It's possible your front two aren't holding the ball up well enough or the rest of your team aren't joining the attack fast enough, leaving only one option for the man on the ball: Shoot or get dispossessed. I don't really agree that you need the tempo to be higher to affect your pressing. I've always seen the Tempo as affecting how quickly your team plays and moves the ball around, not how quickly your players move. I've had success with high pressing, low tempo tactics in the past.

It might be helpful to upload some in-game screenshots (with contextual information) from the moment a player takes his shot to see if the player has options available to him or not.

Good luck and hope this was useful!

[RorysRocketThrow]

Are the work rate stats of Mario, Perisic and Candreva high enough for a high pressing game, at 12s and 13s?

If you are asking your forwards to press forwards and high, are those stats going to create a 'well' in between your forward line and midfield?

[OLLMEISTER1]

Wouldn't be too alarmed with the results at present if I were you, as in real life I believe with the exception of a few players, the Inter Milan squad this year is terrible. Watched the game against Southampton last night and they were dreadful and luckily scraped the 1-0 win thanks to a goalkeeping master class from Handanovic.

Will be a good save this year IMO, needs a near total squad overhaul does Inter this year.

Even DeBoer has struggled.

[summatsupeer]

9 hours ago, thedrdrive said:

@summatsupeer this is brilliant advice, thank you! I appreciate you helping to work this out with me.

Lo and behold, I made the changes you suggested and things look significantly better. Changes I made:

1.Mentality:  Changed to standard

2. Team instructions: Reduced defensive line to Normal, removed work ball into box, removed kicking it to the flanks

3. Changed a few player roles...my wingbacks are now fullbacks with support duty, so they can track back more.

What has worked: We are definitely stronger defensively, although through balls still defeat us on occasion (maybe my wingers should be pulled to support duty instead of attack?).

Offensively though, I find we are still having trouble hitting the mark. I'm noticing a tremendous number of long shots that aren't productive at all.

I've attached a few screenshots to show my new team instructions and roles and a few screenshots from my latest match against Sassuolo (a tie, where we were the favorites to win). You'll see the match stats, my shot chart, as well as a frustrating screenshot of Icardi taking an absurd long-range effort.

You'll also see screenshots of my team's physical, technical, and mental attributes, and a few of my main offensive players

Thanks a ton for all the wonderful help again. Now that I've sharpened the tactic a little, a few additional thoughts on my mind:

1. Do the new distribution of player roles seem right and balanced to you?

2. Any idea what could be causing my players to take such outrageous long shots? I recognize that the high tempo could be to blame, but I feel high tempo is crucial to the pressing style I want to play.

3. More generally, and I realize this is a tough question...but do you feel this tactic is about suited to the players I've got? Especially looking at my overall team stats, I figure we are an athletic and fast team suited to the high press. At the same time, I've got a half-mind to try out this Arrigo Sacchi tactic floating around...would this maybe suit better?

I really appreciate all the advice! It helped me take this tactic one HUGE step closer to the finish line, and hopefully I can get it to great condition soon!

Yeah player PPMs will have an effect, the more freedom they have the more often they will do what they want.  Not sure if Tempo would also play a part in this since the faster you ask them to play the more they have to go on instinct rather than thinking.  I made the mistake once of having Depay and Pogba, then had to play Rashford as as Martial was injured in a Fluid setup, sometimes long shots would be in double figures by half time.  Telling them to Shoot Less Often does have an effect even if they have the PPM, but the more you allow them to deviate from the instructions the more they will try the long shots.

Tempo doesn't affect pressing.  All you can do is set where your block tries to hold its line and when players will start to actively press.  Of course the players attributes play a big part in how effective your press will be.  Your most advanced players might not need to actually tackle to press effectively but I prioritize: Work Rate to be willing to put the effort in.  Stamina to keep it up.  I also like Aggression as I believe it increases the chance the opponent will lose composure.  Athletic and Fast helps reduce time to get to players when pressing, but it needs the players to put the effort in.

I would keep a FB-A or at least a WB-S behind the WP to give a runner on the right side as you have very little on that side currently.

I'm wondering if swapping the front duo around could change the attacking patterns, atm I think the left side is very mobile but lacks penetration (except via dribbling and beating players) whilst the right lacks mobility and has lots of passing penetration.  If The DLF-S was dropping from STCL with the AF-A making runs centrally behind from STCR and a W-A stretching the defence making runs down the left outside of the opposing FB.  The AF could also run the channels a bit for the DLP and WP to find.  Purely theoretical but won't affect your teams familiarity if you want to try it

[jazzyboy]

8 hours ago, summatsupeer said:

Tempo doesn't affect pressing.  All you can do is set where your block tries to hold its line and when players will start to actively press.  Of course the players attributes play a big part in how effective your press will be. 

What is the best way to do this? I feel setting high dline doesn't make them hold it. I tried experimenting with highest defensive line with defensive vs attacking mentality.

With defensive mentality, dline would push up high sometimes going above the halfway line when we got ball in their half, but as soon as we lost the ball they'd immediately drop deep. Attacking mentality behaves similarly when we've got the ball, but they'd linger for a while till the ball advances near them before dropping back.

I only tested this in 2 matches and against different opponents, so obviously not the best test, but I cant help to think mentality has some effects on whether the team gonna hold the line moreso than the dline setting itself.

[summatsupeer]

32 minutes ago, jazzyboy said:

What is the best way to do this? I feel setting high dline doesn't make them hold it. I tried experimenting with highest defensive line with defensive vs attacking mentality.

With defensive mentality, dline would push up high sometimes going above the halfway line when we got ball in their half, but as soon as we lost the ball they'd immediately drop deep. Attacking mentality behaves similarly when we've got the ball, but they'd linger for a while till the ball advances near them before dropping back.

I only tested this in 2 matches and against different opponents, so obviously not the best test, but I cant help to think mentality has some effects on whether the team gonna hold the line moreso than the dline setting itself.

It's not about how high / low they will drop, they will push as high or drop as low as is necessary for the situation.   It about how willing they are to drop / push to a certain point.  Your pretty much agree with your observation.

A defensive team with low line may still push right up to the halfway line whilst in possession, but as soon as possession is lost they will start dropping back as the ball comes forward whilst an attacking team won't willingly start to drop until the ball is further up the field.

Out of possession an attacking team might get pushed all the way back to there box, but if the opponent recycles the ball to there defenders the line will quickly push up whilst a defensive team will only push up slightly.

Mentality adjusts the defensive line and closing down , without you manually changing the defensive line setting.  If you adjust it, your changing from the default for that mentality.  Shamelessly stealing this image from Lines and Diamonds (see guides sticky):

[James9]

Summat if you use Standard that makes your team press in a medium block. Does this means the team starts pressing from the halfway line is that correct. would you recommend giving players in more advance position the PI to close down more while leaving the rest of team on the default pressing that comes with Standard which is a medium block. As you know I either want to play a 4231 wide in occasions. 

[jazzyboy]

1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

 

Mentality adjusts the defensive line and closing down , without you manually changing the defensive line setting.  If you adjust it, your changing from the default for that mentality.  Shamelessly stealing this image from Lines and Diamonds (see guides sticky):

So if I am getting this right, mentality affects the willingness to drop/push while the dline sets the drop/push limits?

Does the defensive block in the table refer to where the players start contesting and trying to win the ball back? If so, is it completely tied to mentality? Looks like where you set your dline doesn't affect where your player try to win the ball, i.e "defensive/high/close down more" the players will just jockey back till the ball is deep in our own half before attempting to win it.

[GunmaN1905]

You absolutely need to use Kondogbia, especially with that style of play. His physical attributes make him perfect for that tactic.
I'd personally use b2b+dlp in midfield, with Kondogbia/Brozović and Mario/Banega. Keep an eye on Gnoukouri, he's also Kondogbia type of player.

But I don't really think that the squad is suited for that style of play.

[chrisw]

8 hours ago, jazzyboy said:

What is the best way to do this? I feel setting high dline doesn't make them hold it. I tried experimenting with highest defensive line with defensive vs attacking mentality.

With defensive mentality, dline would push up high sometimes going above the halfway line when we got ball in their half, but as soon as we lost the ball they'd immediately drop deep. Attacking mentality behaves similarly when we've got the ball, but they'd linger for a while till the ball advances near them before dropping back.

I only tested this in 2 matches and against different opponents, so obviously not the best test, but I cant help to think mentality has some effects on whether the team gonna hold the line moreso than the dline setting itself.

In my opinion the best way to create an effective press is to use Opposition Instructions.

It's not a popular move but I think it really helps for a pressing tactic. It helps tell your team where on the pitch to press and where not to, as you can tell your players which of the opposition players to "Always" close down, "Never" Close down, or close down at as normal (indicated by the " - " on the dropdowns). Opposition players will only be closed down once the player themselves have possession of the ball. This is key to remember.

The tight marking settings function like this: When a player has already been closed down by a defender, will that defender stick to him once the ball has moved on, or will he go back to fit back into formation? For example, you wouldn't want one of your centre-mids to stick with the opposition DC he closed down, as that will leave a huge gap behind him. So I often put all the defenders in my oppositions side on the "Never" tight marking setting. This way no one gets stuck up the field for too long.

I don't wanna hijack the thread too far from where OP wants it so I'll stop for now - and it's always fun to work more things out yourself  - but that's kind of my summary of the basic ideas I put into my tactics when I consider how I want to press my opposition.

[thedrdrive]

Thanks all! @noikeee @summatsupeer @chrisw  @jazzyboy @gunman1905  @James9 @olliemaster and others! This is excellent help in refining the tactic. 

I agree, the left/right balance of the roles is something I didn't think about enough, and some players may be much more suited to start than others (the tip about Kondogbia is a great call!).  I will also think about the tempo a little bit more, I had connected it too much with the pressing instruction and will definitely experiment there.

The more I think about it, I may be trying to fit a square peg into a round hole. I figured since we are an athletic and pacey squad, a high press tactic would suit us well. But as point out, my work rate stats aren't so high - I neglected to think about that.

Definitely an open ended question, but how would you all think of tactics for this squad? Judging from the comparisons, we are a pacey team with strong dribbling and technical skills. We have a world class striker in ICardi who is a lethal scorer. Does anyone have suggestions as to what tactical style could suit this type of team? I recognize this is far from a specific tactical help request at this point, but seriously any thoughts would be very cool to hear!

[summatsupeer]

11 hours ago, jazzyboy said:

So if I am getting this right, mentality affects the willingness to drop/push while the dline sets the drop/push limits?

Does the defensive block in the table refer to where the players start contesting and trying to win the ball back? If so, is it completely tied to mentality? Looks like where you set your dline doesn't affect where your player try to win the ball, i.e "defensive/high/close down more" the players will just jockey back till the ball is deep in our own half before attempting to win it.

There are no limits, just where the team aims to drop or push up to. It is purely d-line setting, mentality just changed what a Normal line position is.

Block is just defensive line.  Pressure column is where you should expect players to actively close down.

Have a read of lines and diamonds, it will explain the setting and what you can do to create different styles with them.  Not sure if anthing is out of date for 17, I know team shape was out of date for 16.

13 hours ago, James9 said:

Summat if you use Standard that makes your team press in a medium block. Does this means the team starts pressing from the halfway line is that correct. would you recommend giving players in more advance position the PI to close down more while leaving the rest of team on the default pressing that comes with Standard which is a medium block. As you know I either want to play a 4231 wide in occasions. 

Around the halfway line, your formation and team shape might affect it slightly. See above for block vs pressure.

It is a valid option if you see a lack of pressure but feel they can press together and won't just be chasing ghosts whilst rest of team watches.