My deffenders keep clearing the ball with long balls

[Alawy]

Its very anoyying i set all my tactics to be " shorter passing " and made sure all deffenders / mid players has more short passing in thier instercution yet in the game

they always clean the ball with long ball and not the short passes i set for -_-

i tried deffrenet carries to see and the result is the same

i just ended a game with 0 shot on the goal becuase my team was so idiot to just cross the ball faword and they it get cut

[Cougar2010]

Putting shorter passing means making the passing range shorter.  If there is no-one to receive the ball within that range then the players can't follow that instruction.

I suspect you also have other tactical issues but we would need to see the tactics you are using (Roles, Duties, TIs & PIs).

You'll probably also get told to post it in the tactics forum to get advice.

Basic rule number 1 though - Don't add instructions unless you know what they do.

[Lord Rowell]

6 hours ago, Alawy said:

Its very anoyying i set all my tactics to be " shorter passing " and made sure all deffenders / mid players has more short passing in thier instercution yet in the game

they always clean the ball with long ball and not the short passes i set for -_-

i tried deffrenet carries to see and the result is the same

i just ended a game with 0 shot on the goal becuase my team was so idiot to just cross the ball faword and they it get cut

This can happen if the opposition are playing a high press and getting tight to your defenders. They will try to play the ball short but (and I think this is a little problem with the ME) rather than play long intelligently, they panic and just hoof it anywhere, often straight to an opposition player.

If this happens in the situation I described above, the simple solution is to make tempo higher and passing more direct - then they'll be more proactive in playing the ball earlier, hopefully to players on your team.

After that it does of course depend on your own tactical set up as well.

[HUNT3R]

As Cougar said, what's likely happening is that you've shortened the range now so much that there aren't passing options that close, so players resort to hoofing it to safety.

Either ease up on the instructions a little or give your players passing options. If you're still struggling, ask in the tactics forum, but read the sticky thread about asking for help so that you know what info to provide.

[phnompenhandy]

At the very least, you need something like a half-back in the DM position to come close and pick up the short pass.

[noikeee]

Also make sure you're not using limited defender, limited fullback or target man roles. All of these will encourage hoofing up the ball. 

[Lenzar]

I'm impressed that it took only 8 minutes for the denial lot to start blaming tactics..

[Cougar2010]

20 minutes ago, Lenzar said:

I'm impressed that it took only 8 minutes for the denial lot to start blaming tactics..

If you took your head out of the sand, the fingers out of your ears and the tin foil hat off your head for a moment you might see that tactical choices are the problem with a large number of issues raised.

You would think the experience you have playing the game & the time you've spent on the forum you would know this already but I guess I'm giving you too much credit

[noikeee]

18 minutes ago, Lenzar said:

I'm impressed that it took only 8 minutes for the denial lot to start blaming tactics..

Denial lot. 

User posts a problem he's having (and which none of us witness in our tactics, btw), we post potential solutions. FFS, some people even acknowledged the ME problem with overly short passing options resulting in players hoofing it up if they don't find any pass short enough. Which is dumb but can be overcome with slight tweaks to tactics.

I've criticised the ME's shortcomings loads of times, this isn't it, it's a tactics problem.

[HUNT3R]

35 minutes ago, Lenzar said:

I'm impressed that it took only 8 minutes for the denial lot to start blaming tactics..

Lenzar, you're a broken record. Stop being an idiot. No one is 'blaming' tactics - it's a fact that this is a cause. The answers the OP was given, was 100% correct - that players will hoof it if the tactical instructions don't allow for passing options or if the player doesn't see the options.

It's a discussion forum. Discuss. If you disagree, then explain why.

[roykela]

There might be a little point to it though.
I've noticed in my games that there is some iffy stuff going on.
 

I've seen several times that my midfielders, in the build-up to an attack (counter-attack and proper build-up) that they
all of a sudden decides to clear the ball.
It happens when they're under no pressure and quite a few teammates to pass to. Even when the player is able to run with the ball himself.
The oddest thing about it is that it happens in the 2nd half of the pitch.
The worst i've seen was when they were about 30 meters away from the opposition's goal.
Just hoofed the ball over the sideline close to the cornerflag with the commentary reporting something about "x player clears the ball" or something along those lines.

I haven't analysed why they do it, as in having read the match reports to see if it's just an animation issue.
But it's a weird thing.
My players can collect the ball in our defence. They'll pass the ball to a midfielder who runs with the ball for a while and then just clears the ball
in the middle of the build-up.

Something's wrong about those situations when they happen but i don't know what it is.

[HUNT3R]

1 minute ago, roykela said:

Something's wrong about those situations when they happen but i don't know what it is.

If you don't have answers, post the tactical setup and the exact situation this happens, preferably in the tactics forum.

It could be a few things influencing it. Could be tactical (particularly Team Instructions, Roles and Mentality is important to note), the player thinking he's out of options or he's playing nervously/without confidence/feeling under pressure.

[Soninho]

8 hours ago, Lenzar said:

I'm impressed that it took only 8 minutes for the denial lot to start blaming tactics..

Hahaha.. Ok. I'm going to give him what you want!

It's the ME.. Game is broken! No solution. Contact illuminati, they have more information!

How is this helpful!?

To OP, there are some good advice by others! Take them into consideration...!

[roykela]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

If you don't have answers, post the tactical setup and the exact situation this happens, preferably in the tactics forum.

It could be a few things influencing it. Could be tactical (particularly Team Instructions, Roles and Mentality is important to note), the player thinking he's out of options or he's playing nervously/without confidence/feeling under pressure.

I could but if i would post anything regarding that it would go to the bugs forum.
A player does not clear the ball from a defensive stance (getting the ball to safety, possibly due to the opposition putting the defence under pressure) while in the middle
of building up an attack and after crossing the half-way line. Add to that, 20 meters to the closest player from the opposition and he's behind the attacking player.
That really should not be a tactical issue. If it is a tactical issue then that opens up another tiny little can with its own set of problems.

[Cougar2010]

6 minutes ago, roykela said:

I could but if i would post anything regarding that it would go to the bugs forum.
A player does not clear the ball from a defensive stance (getting the ball to safety, possibly due to the opposition putting the defence under pressure) while in the middle
of building up an attack and after crossing the half-way line. Add to that, 20 meters to the closest player from the opposition and he's behind the attacking player.
That really should not be a tactical issue. If it is a tactical issue then that opens up another tiny little can with its own set of problems.

I'll start by saying I've never seen a player clear a ball like you have described above so I would presume it was a very rare set of circumstances.

I'm pretty confident you already know this but just for clarity when a player does something on the pitch in FM its for a reason.  When you look at why you need to try & identify the cause then decide if that action is realistic in that moment.  If not it should go to the bugs forum for SI to review and improve on.

Is it realistic for players to clear the ball? mostly yes.

Can tactical instructions cause players to clear the ball earlier than expected? Yes, especially when combined with the mentality of a player.

That said what you described in your previous post does sound buggy but I'm also surprised I've not seen anyone else report a similar scenario of a ball being cleared when in the opposition half.

[roykela]

25 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

I'll start by saying I've never seen a player clear a ball like you have described above so I would presume it was a very rare set of circumstances.

I'm pretty confident you already know this but just for clarity when a player does something on the pitch in FM its for a reason.  When you look at why you need to try & identify the cause then decide if that action is realistic in that moment.  If not it should go to the bugs forum for SI to review and improve on.

Is it realistic for players to clear the ball? mostly yes.

Can tactical instructions cause players to clear the ball earlier than expected? Yes, especially when combined with the mentality of a player.

That said what you described in your previous post does sound buggy but I'm also surprised I've not seen anyone else report a similar scenario of a ball being cleared when in the opposition half.

Probably a rare set of unfortunate happenings probably, and i've inadvertently triggered it somehow.
It's for a reason, indeed. in a 50-year or so career i'm bound to see a few extreme things but i'm mostly surprised as to how "regular" it was happening.
I haven't seen it happening after i've changed clubs though. It happened with one specific club but with different players.

Hopefully (well, not really ) it happens again and i'm in the mood for analysing the situation thoroughly.
As you say, i haven't seen it reported anywhere either.
If you do see it happening in your game i hope you're already bald because it can certainly make you rip your hair out. Especially if you need a goal

[noikeee]

9 hours ago, roykela said:

Probably a rare set of unfortunate happenings probably, and i've inadvertently triggered it somehow.
It's for a reason, indeed. in a 50-year or so career i'm bound to see a few extreme things but i'm mostly surprised as to how "regular" it was happening.
I haven't seen it happening after i've changed clubs though. It happened with one specific club but with different players.

did your defenders by any chance have a PPM of "gets rid of the ball at all times" 

that does sound like a bug.

[Soninho]

Just started a new save. Wanted to manage a big club compared to the other saves I have before FM17 comes out. I chose Brighton! My board wanted me to play possesion football and tbh that's not my strong point, but why not try something new before I let this game go..

So far I've failed misserably! Like a couple of you guys my defenders are just throwing the ball forward, despite me having a DM and a cm playmaker..!

In another save I went for a different tactic and here I'm above 60% possesion at all times! So I know it's doable, I just haven't figured out the right combination of ti's...

Starting to get better now when I'm tweaking my tactics little by little so I can tell you guys it's not a bug! So far I'm unbeaten my first seven matches so I don't want to mess up my tactic too much, rather win than play nice and loose!

[isignedupfornorealreason]

On 21/09/2016 at 06:10, HUNT3R said:

As Cougar said, what's likely happening is that you've shortened the range now so much that there aren't passing options that close, so players resort to hoofing it to safety.

Either ease up on the instructions a little or give your players passing options. If you're still struggling, ask in the tactics forum, but read the sticky thread about asking for help so that you know what info to provide.

Might be just me, but I think it should be next to impossible for the game to think "Instructions too short, therefore hoofball it". You would think it should ideally automatically be something like "Keep passing range as short as possible, where possible, or go to next shortest option."

 

Obviously, doesn't have to be the next shortest, safest option. I would assume (perhaps wrongly) people would figure, 'ooh they're passing it short and in a dangerous area, this instruction is counter-productive in this instance', more easily than how it is now, where it is somewhat counter-intuitive. If that even makes sense?

 

Though I don't know, I've not touched shorter passing for ages. =x

[Cougar2010]

13 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Might be just me, but I think it should be next to impossible for the game to think "Instructions too short, therefore hoofball it". You would think it should ideally automatically be something like "Keep passing range as short as possible, where possible, or go to next shortest option."

 

Obviously, doesn't have to be the next shortest, safest option. I would assume (perhaps wrongly) people would figure, 'ooh they're passing it short and in a dangerous area, this instruction is counter-productive in this instance', more easily than how it is now, where it is somewhat counter-intuitive. If that even makes sense?

 

Though I don't know, I've not touched shorter passing for ages. =x

 

At the end of the day FM is a piece of software and needs coding to function.  This will always give you black & white situations where IRL its more fuzzy & borderline.

Ignoring an instruction and moving to the next level I can't see working as why bother with any instructions if you are just going to want the players to ignore them.  Educating users as to why its happening and what they can do tactically to improve their setup is far better IMO, the challenge for SI is to incorporate that level of advice into the game via the AM although & I suspect it will be a few years yet until the staff are at that sort of level.  That of course also doesn't include situations which are truely bugs.

I would agree though that its counter intuitive along with a few other instructions and again its a challenge for SI to get across the true nature of each.

 

[Svenc]

I think wwfan who got to know a lot of under the hoodies from communicating advocated a "too short passing setting" as reason for "aimless" hoof balls as well, but admittedly, I'never never seen that personally. If anything, the decision bias towards playing it short with the most extreme settings possible is more likely to become that big that for instance you were far more likely to see a risky short ball played out from the back when the opposition is still pushed up after an intercepted attack, rather than the player doing the logical thing, like clearing it to advanced guys in actually space -- which would put the DM or CM passed to under pressure (and lead to mistakes).

 

Naturally if for some reason players don't find a short option to take the ball upfield, after a while you will see something different, but that's naturally and "common sense" decision making.  That's my experience I thought probably worth sharing even if wrong on it, as what's suggested does sound anything but logical from any perspective coding and playing, and I use those instructions plenty of in particular when using possession in a match to "choke it" to see it out. Therefore the most frequent reasons from my book, most already been named:

- fielding limited centre backs, which is an issue in particular as assistants recommend many cbs to field as limited centre backs outright and lots of guys go straight with that advice, rather than thinking "holistically" and how they want things to play out. Reason, they're set to clear the lines. To a lesser extent this goes for the ball playing defenders also, as they're inherently set to play defensive splitting through balls

- fielding a target man up top, which sort of overrides passing patterns. The ball is encouraged to be launched to the TM from back to front by simply fielding that role, the game needs visual cues for this

- players getting under pressure, in particular in the lower leagues. Looking through patch notes you'll see that lesser players are tweaked to prefer safer options more directly. Naturally happens higher up too, but should happen less of (likely connected to lower or higher mental traits in particular)

- Perception bias, i.e. I ALWAYS lose to a late goal, my keeper ALWAYS fires the ball upfield despite being encouraged to roll it out to the left back. From watching purely highlights it can doubly look as such. You can set things to whatever you like, you won't get any direct balls out of things completely in anything. That said, players have never just belted it constantly even on Vanarama levels if you insisted on otherwise. Connected to this, the first post sounds a bit dubious or a tad exaggerated as far as that is concerned. If you're getting zero shots in 90 minutes, there's more to it than just passing stuff pretty much guaranteed

- Stupid decisions and behavior, which is always worth an upload in the bugs forum if you think there's something really not right, and there's certainly always some of

[HUNT3R]

3 hours ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

Might be just me, but I think it should be next to impossible for the game to think "Instructions too short, therefore hoofball it". You would think it should ideally automatically be something like "Keep passing range as short as possible, where possible, or go to next shortest option."

 

Obviously, doesn't have to be the next shortest, safest option. I would assume (perhaps wrongly) people would figure, 'ooh they're passing it short and in a dangerous area, this instruction is counter-productive in this instance', more easily than how it is now, where it is somewhat counter-intuitive. If that even makes sense?

 

Though I don't know, I've not touched shorter passing for ages. =x

I don't disagree that (to me) that would have been the more logical way for it to work, but at the moment it isn't how it works. Whether it is a technical limitation, I don't know.

[Svenc]

2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

I don't disagree that (to me) that would have been the more logical way for it to work, but at the moment it isn't how it works. Whether it is a technical limitation, I don't know.

Has there ever been anything posted by Paul directly? Because, as said, I've never experienced it, even back with the sliders set to "1". It's a bias influence to me. If after a couple of a passes interchanged there is just not short option to take the ball upfield, players will pick the options that are available. I rarely have that admittedly, as I don't make like every midfielder rush upfield asap, but setting passing "too short (??)" and then players just aimlessly hoofing it has never happened to me. It's the opposite. It hugely increases the likelyhood of players playing it from the back even if that is very very risky (as in the vid above, where the midfielder immediately is put under pressure and loses the ball, which directly leads to a goal). Maybe I interpret the decisions taken, namely that there will be a direct/long ball if there is just no short option near to finally get the ball upfield, just differently though.

Whilst I don't have any authority on this, I know as i use those extremes in combination occasionally, which can completely stall games. In any case, players constantly hoofing it, can never be a passing setting in isolation (unless they're encouraged to boot it specifically), it's how the entire team is set up. I wouldn't overcomplicate that "too short" passing thing. Just not seeing this personally. :-)

[HUNT3R]

Just now, Svenc said:

Has there ever been anything posted by Paul directly? Because, as said, I've never experienced it, even back with the sliders set to "1". It's a bias influence to me. If after a couple of a passes interchanged there is just not short option to take the ball upfield, players will pick the options that are available. I rarely have that admittedly, as I don't make like every midfielder rush upfield asap, but setting passing "too short (??)" and then players just aimlessly hoofing it has never happened to me. It's the opposite. It hugely increases the likelyhood of players playing it from the back even if that is very very risky (as in the vid above). Maybe I interpret the decisions taken, namely that there will be a direct/long ball if there is just no short option near to finally get the ball upfield, just differently though.

In any case, players constantly hoofing it, can never be a passing setting in isolation (unless they're encouraged to boot it specifically), it's how the entire team is set up.

I'm not sure if he has, tbh. You're the unofficial historian, don't ask me! 

If players have enough creative freedom, it can help, as I'm sure you know. It has happened to me on the odd occasion and it's definitely happened to the people who's tactics I've tried to analyse and advise on. 

It's not always that it's necessarily too short either. It could be Retain Possession (which I hate seeing in someone's tactic!), just poor Mentality/role/duty setup or something else as well.

[kevin3]

On 22/09/2016 at 14:25, HUNT3R said:

The answers the OP was given, was 100% correct - that players will hoof it if the tactical instructions don't allow for passing options or if the player doesn't see the options.

I don't agree that setting too short a passing style will lead to hoofball if it's outside the player's passing range. 

From running simple tests on FM12, I found that players still play long passes even on very short passing. The difference was most notable when you change a striker's passing style - a shorter passing style actually led to longer, backward passes. 

Here's an example from FM12:

Van Persie (medium mentality, medium CF, passing style 1) receives the ball with his back to goal and has space to turn. Can you guess which pass he plays next?

Instead of playing the "short" pass infield to Ramsey, he plays a long sweeping ball backwards to the LB, Andre Santos. The most "direct" pass available to Van Persie in this situation was actually the pass to Ramsey, whilst the long pass backwards to the LB is the one of "shortest" available.

My interpretation of the passing slider is that it affects the urgency to advance possession forward into attacking areas/situations vs retain possession (mentality can also have an effect on this).