[Discussion] Player Preferred Position

[eriktous]

This is something that just popped in my mind, so I'll put it up here for discussion. Real players often have an image of themselves of what kind of player they are and what position they feel is best for them. Often the manager sees this in the same way, but sometimes he disagrees, or he feels the team would be more balanced if the player plays in a different position than his best. This has the possibility of the player becoming unhappy.

Think of the attacker who likes to play as an inside forward so he can make his dribbles through the centre and get in scoring position, while the coach prefers to play him as a winger on the opposing side, or the versatile defensive minded player who can play full back, centre back, wing back, and defensive midfielder, and gets used as a stop gap in all those positions, while he would himself prefer to focus on only one position.

In game the amount to which it becomes a problem could be tied to things like the players professionalism and flair.

[gunner86]

Actually, I agree. I'd never even considered it before!

Theo Walcott is one of highest profile examples that comes to mind, Daniel Sturridge I believe is in a similar situation at the moment as well.

Would certainly add some more depth to player management, I like the idea of talking to players about how you see them, and what you're expecting of them.

Would be good to be able to go to them and explain that you think they can develop into playing a different position too. 

[Weston]

Good point. Also, since I recently discovered that playing a player out of position doesn't actually harm his ability in any way besides a decrease to decision making I've been interested in experimenting with using players out position more often now based on roles, etc, that suit their attributes, so this would hand in hand with those experiments. I always wondered why I saw better players than I often use tactics that left players in yellow roles when I always strived painstakingly to only get men where they're light green, but I guess in some cases the trade off can be worth it if you as manager see potential somewhere else than where the self-described inside forward is used to being, etc.

[zigaliro]

Do you guys think that it should harm their ability more than it currently does if played out of position?

[Maaka]

19 minutes ago, zigaliro said:

Do you guys think that it should harm their ability more than it currently does if played out of position?

That would depend. A winger playing on the "wrong" side should be pretty much ok. A CD playing as a target striker should be able to perform (with the right attributes), but a full back suddenly being an advanced playmaker without ever having played there should be "penalized" even though he has some of the attributes right. Same for a winger playing CD. Maybe there should be "linked" positions? A full back could perform at the wing, but probably better than the other way around.

[eriktous]

Thinking about it, instead of just the decisions attribute being affected (which, I believe, is the commonly accepted theory), players could have their composure being affected. Defenders having to play in a more attacking role usually get nervous on the ball, so a lowering of composure could be in order. On the other hand, attackers having to fill in in defense often are too self assured in possession and are in danger of trying to play their way out of trouble too often, suggesting a boost in composure. (Is there such a thing as overconfidence in FM, or is more composure always better?)

[Gangor]

I would have thought that positioning would also be adversely affected by playing out of position

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, Gangor said:

I would have thought that positioning would also be adversely affected by playing out of position

It is indirectly, by Decisions being affected.

[Gangor]

On 9/13/2016 at 07:28, HUNT3R said:

It is indirectly, by Decisions being affected.

But even so, my understanding is that Decision Making is being able to make the right choice instinctively, whereas Positioning is knowing where to be at any given time. Surely both would be affected IRL by being played out of a familiar position

[HUNT3R]

15 minutes ago, Gangor said:

But even so, my understanding is that Decision Making is being able to make the right choice instinctively, whereas Positioning is knowing where to be at any given time. Surely both would be affected IRL by being played out of a familiar position

So he'll see all the options of where to position himself, but sometimes choose the wrong option.

[managerdude_66]

Isn't Positioning a defensive attribute though? Or rather it comes into picture when your team is off the ball. And ironically OTB is when your team actually has the ball?

I agree with HUNT3R's logic though, although it would be nice if we had an overall 'Intelligence' attribute which affected both Positioning and OTB in equal measure.

[HUNT3R]

A debate could be had about other attributes affecting a player when he's played out of position, but things like Positioning etc would be governed by Decisions already too.

Is the penalty do Decisions affecting players enough though? Are they really making bad decisions, especially regarding positioning themselves? Should other attributes be affected, like Composure or even Concentration?

And FWIW, players can get upset if you play them in an unfamiliar position. Depends on the personality though.

[Powermonger]

12 hours ago, managerdude_66 said:

Isn't Positioning a defensive attribute though? Or rather it comes into picture when your team is off the ball. And ironically OTB is when your team actually has the ball?

I agree with HUNT3R's logic though, although it would be nice if we had an overall 'Intelligence' attribute which affected both Positioning and OTB in equal measure.

I think FM sees it that way but I don't really agree, I think positioning should be important for any phase in order to keep team shape and and know where to be, whether defending or attacking. OTB to me is more the ability to create space and lose markers, positioning should be about where to place yourself to cover the opposition if they are in possession but also to make sure you place yourself in relation to your other teammates so you are not isolating yourself. If your team is in possession then positioning is how you position yourself to support play and present yourself as an outlet for the player with the ball and maintain a healthy team shape while developing play.

I do not necessarily agree we need an intelligence attribute because game intelligence is more then one attribute, for me it is made up of Anticipation, Decisions, Positioning, Off the Ball, Teamwork and Vision. All are interelated, so I can't see an intelligence attribute slotting in and making sense.

[eriktous]

Are you sure about the positioning attribute only being used when out of possession? The online manual describes it as being more general, I think.

Quote

Positioning is the ability of a player to read a situation and position himself in the best possible position to deal with the unfolding events. Anticipation will help him in the first stage but in terms of his actual positioning, it comes down to this attribute. A higher rating will ensure the player takes up a better position.

 

[HUNT3R]

4 minutes ago, eriktous said:

Are you sure about the positioning attribute only being used when out of possession? The online manual describes it as being more general, I think.

 

It's definitely a defensive attribute only. The manual should be a little clearer, but Off The Ball is basically the in possession positioning.

[swansongs]

Concentration should definitely take a hit when players are being played out of position.

Preferred Position is something that would make sense to see in the database, as long as it wasn't applied too thoroughly. I'd wager most footballers are happy to be taking part wherever a manager can fit them in.

But maybe that's professionalism for you. James Milner supposedly moved to Liverpool in part due to a desire to play as a CM more often, even if he's not kicking up a fuss from left back.

[gunner86]

Maybe a system that sit's alongside the positional abilities so a player might be 20 (natural) for ST and AMR, but in preferred position is 20 for ST and 12 for AMR

That way, coupled with professionalism etc would affect how often/likely player complaints are

[swansongs]

21 minutes ago, gunner86 said:

Maybe a system that sit's alongside the positional abilities so a player might be 20 (natural) for ST and AMR, but in preferred position is 20 for ST and 12 for AMR

That way, coupled with professionalism etc would affect how often/likely player complaints are

In practical terms that's a lot of additional data to add to the database, for a feature that won't have widespread impact. Lot of work for researchers and processors alike. 

A single 'Preferred Position' field that can be left blank would be sufficient to model real-life examples.

[gunner86]

15 hours ago, swansongs said:

In practical terms that's a lot of additional data to add to the database, for a feature that won't have widespread impact. Lot of work for researchers and processors alike. 

A single 'Preferred Position' field that can be left blank would be sufficient to model real-life examples.

I was thinking about it last night and yeah, you're right. I suppose the other challenge is how readily that level of data is available

I don't recall ever hearing a player say "I feel I'm a striker and that's where I want to play, however, I also fairly enjoy playing on the right, I dislike playing on the left"

[Maaka]

21 hours ago, gunner86 said:

I was thinking about it last night and yeah, you're right. I suppose the other challenge is how readily that level of data is available

I don't recall ever hearing a player say "I feel I'm a striker and that's where I want to play, however, I also fairly enjoy playing on the right, I dislike playing on the left"

That would be what Theo would say, though... 

[Neil Brock]

Reviewed so locked.