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Mitja

match engine

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I did that experiment becouse of 2 reasons. 1st becouse I allways watch my matches on full (more or less) and the 2nd is when 2D ME was introduced (CM4?) this issue was obvious. it might be silly to think so but I just wanted to be sure.

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Totally understandable cos' I doubted about that too like many others do.

I tried playing with 8.0.1 and also compared with 8.0. Of course, I can figure out some simple and reasonable tactics to get stable performances with 8.0.1. The game is playable if you don't ask too much from the tactical/ME thing.

And 8.0 ME is great except the closing down bug and first touch/dribble problem which happens rarely. Attacking is just beautiful and realistic at least.

So my only hope is just to see, in the next patch, those active movements and threatening intricate short passings as is seen in 8.0.

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written by HeartShapedMan:

I also think there are too many chances/shots on goal. As a long time fan/watcher of football, I'd put it down to three main match engine related reasons:

1) The final ball/cross is a bit too good/accurate. In real life it usually takes many attempts to get the final ball perfect in order to create a chance, even with world class players. It's a very delicate art. Which leads to my next point...

2) Defenders. The AI for defenders is poor compared to the attackers. They aren't very good at the fundamental law of defending - stay goalside of the attacker until the last possible moment (to then make a challenge). They are too static, as if ball watching, and rarely pick up players when the other team are attacking/around your area or just easily let the attacker get goalside. Also, the advantage is (usually) with defenders since when a ball/pass/cross comes in, all they have to do is clear it, whereas an attacker must bring the ball under control and/or get a shot on target, which is much more difficult. Defenders don't need to worry about bringing the ball under control, they can just clear their lines. There should be a lot more crosses/final balls being cleared and not instantly brought down and fired in by attackers when the two players are in the same place vying for the ball.

3) Goalkeepers. As I played as a goalkeeper when younger this irks me. Again, their AI, especially their positional awareness, is poor. They are terrific shot stoppers (maybe a bit too good) but when it comes to the fundamentals of getting your angles right they often fail miserably. They are often woeful at covering their near posts, which is an unwritten golden rule of goalkeeping, with goals let in at the near-post usually seen as an error by the keeper. They also seem to act a bit too quickly when it comes to the flight of the ball, they'll quickly run to where the ball/cross would land only to have it headed in at the near post with the goalkeeper standing 10 yards away out of his goal. Although that may be tied to eccentricity.

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one thing I missed to write it down, but is very important for this thread is ball speed.

BALL SPEED?

1) absolutly true. one pacey striker and you have as many 1/1 as you want, for example. but does the ball speed play big role here. I mentioned this many times, also did some test; the ball is too slow (esp. on 8.0.1). just look at passes, players are waitnig for the ball, every second pass. so it's no wonder that we have so many key passes, being succesfull. I know many will disagree, but comparing some real football matches with FM ME, you'll see what I'm talking about. as I said I did some tests also, but the problem is that we don't have REAL TIME in FM; you can't find any slider that would suite 1 minute of real time.

2) no doubt. IRE defender's got advantage over attacking player on passes, especialy long and through balls, becouse the ball is comming his way. he's got more time to react. in FM that isn't the case. why. ball speed in my opinoum. look at long balls for example. both, ATTing and DEFing players just stand still and wait for the ball to fall. IRE you see much more movement to get to the ball.

I realy think increasing the ball speed slightky would bring more reality to the game via more bad passes, more movement to get to the ball, the ball would be harder to handle also...

3) goalkeepers are too good. but they have to be, becouse then we would have some realy crazy resoults out there.

EXAMPLES OF BALL BEING TOO SLOW

- most obvous and anoying one; players constantly wait for the ball to get to them.

- it takes years from GK's goal kick to falling to the ground. same for long passes. players are waiting (far too often) instead od moving to get to it. but crosses are somehow much faster?!?

- IRE; key passes played around the box, those are not passes, they are more like shots to foot. that's how quick those passes are. very hard to handle and control. don't see any of that in FM.

- killer balls. "don't happen a lot IRE", or at least not as deadly as in FM;-> happen all the time, due to attacking player being able to run as fast as ball?!? --->

<- players ability to run as fast as ball; happens all the time in FM. that just isn't the case IRE, that's why teams are passing, becouse it's MUCH quicker then simply runing with ball.

- too good ball control becouse of the ball being too slow.-->

<- players don't have many problems with passing and controling, when under pressure (cloing down), due to ball being controled too easy. -> the basic idea of closing down should be that opponents loose their posession, via clearances, bad passes/ control, or interceptions.

I'm sure there are some more examples, but these are the most obvious.

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Oh, mostly I agree.

The ball speed of passing/shooting and player running speed just don't look right. And of course, we don't have real time clock in ME. I don't see the reason. In earlier version of other football manager game they simulate a match in about 5 (more or less) minutes. Now SI simulate a 90 minutes full-time in about 60 minutes. What does that mean? Maybe that means less actions, less movments, less bad passes, less turns of attacking and couter attacking? Less realism in totall?

But about the ball controlling, I don't think we can just simply judge it to be too good or too poor. As we know, the control of midfield is something very important. In 8.0.1 we can see the play in midfield is already not so secure. I mean when the midfield player gets the ball I will get worried if he can convey the ball to other player or make any actions done. I just hope he won't dwell the ball too long for no reason to lose it, cos' it's dangerous and unrealistic.

But above all, I actually continue to play the game just because I love the game -- football, on the condition that I neglect all unrealistic aspects in match engine. And I find using the default tactics with little tweak seems to be an easier and more effective way to play. That will cause less shots on goal but higher rate of converting a goal.

As we're still going to play the game till we get too old to play, I'll rather simply list some real actions we'd like to see in match engine.

1. correct speed of player running and ball passing/shooting

2. better intelligence in player choosing different speed of running/passing which leads to rhythm variation.

3. players work as a team better by passing and receiving ball more actively

4. players work as a team better by moving and positoning themselves more actively

5. defensive leader should organize defense like irl.(quite high demand for current match engine maybe I don't know about this actually)

6. realistic headers especially header direction/distance when two player compete for the ball

7. player holds the ball more like real life (irl ball should be harder to take away when player holding/controlling it than when player dribbling it with some speed)

8. different height of passing -- overhead lob passing, long and low penetrating quick passing, etc

9. realistic ball controlling using all parts of body (as is defined in ball controlling training)

10.less aimless passing and shooting; more correct passing distance no matter how you move the passing slider

11.much improved winger (and all other players) off-ball movement

12.midfielders should help defense (including forwards, its not realistc that, no matter what tactics is assigned, when opponent is attacking for 2,3 minutes and your forwards/wingers/AMCs/ are still staying upfront and doing nothing, they should also help defense even if they just come back slowly but they should come back to disrupt opponent's attck at least)

Ok that's all for now I don't know if I'm right but that's just something fair and normal if you watch real life football. icon_wink.gif

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nice to see you back arnoldzhu.

I know I can't put things into words that nicely icon14.gif

hmmm... what can I say

13. heel pass!! many times it happens that feel pass would be just perfect solution for situation, but...

14. bad GK clearances esp after him being pressed

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icon14.gif I'm too.

Why can't you? But I don't feel comfortable enough in expressing in English either. I see some mates native speaker here really said what we wanted to say. icon_wink.gif

Anyway, there's something I still missed.

15. There's too many deflections when passing, crossing and shooting now.

16. Players shouldn't shoot the ball in such a hurry even if in tactics "time wasting" is set to 0.

17. There's sometimes this kind of situation: We see someone is just controlling the ball in midfield and dribbling slowly and aimlessly even though his teammate is just beside him. That's the time I begin to worry as I said before.

I maybe we all always wonder at this and/or many other kinds of moment: what the heck is he doing, it just looks dumb. But I am pretty sure that it's because the tactics, the tactics is quite possibly set low tempo, high timewasting, low creative freedom and personally "run with ball" often. So the player just do what the tactics told him to do. But it shouldn't be like this. It's no football. Players shouldn't do inappropriate things so frequently whatever tactics is given.

So putting together, the general feeling is that the tactics influence too much on how players perform in the ME from looks. But in fact the problem is that player in the ME isn't made intelligent and possessing common football knowledge enough. Make them smarter and we'll get a more enjoyable game. And we should be able to feel what moves the player is using instead of guessing what is he doing.

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compreing the speed of FM ME, to tonight's match man u/portsmouth, it looks like that match is 2x faster at least (passes especially). ball is deep in man u's half and after a twink of an eye... oooou it's goal. portsmouth still didn't realized match allready started...ooou it's 2-0. what a football... he allready scored 27 goals this saeson icon_eek.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

a few examples of bad positioning. all this happened in less then 20 minute interval. my closing down setup for DC was 0- back off.

http://img82.imageshack.us/img82/9648/me2nl0.jpg

http://img238.imageshack.us/img238/992/me3ur5.jpg

http://img151.imageshack.us/img151/5681/me1au7.jpg </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

What is your DC's positioning, decisions, anticipation and teamwork . Also do you use man or zone marking ?

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

compreing the speed of FM ME, to tonight's match man u/portsmouth, it looks like that match is 2x faster at least (passes especially). ball is deep in man u's half and after a twink of an eye... oooou it's goal. portsmouth still didn't realized match allready started...ooou it's 2-0. what a football... he allready scored 27 goals this saeson icon_eek.gif </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Because Ronaldo IS the Second Coming!! icon_wink.gif

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:

icon14.gif I'm too.

Why can't you? But I don't feel comfortable enough in expressing in English either. I see some mates native speaker here really said what we wanted to say. icon_wink.gif

Anyway, there's something I still missed.

15. There's too many deflections when passing, crossing and shooting now.

16. Players shouldn't shoot the ball in such a hurry even if in tactics "time wasting" is set to 0.

17. There's sometimes this kind of situation: We see someone is just controlling the ball in midfield and dribbling slowly and aimlessly even though his teammate is just beside him. That's the time I begin to worry as I said before.

I maybe we all always wonder at this and/or many other kinds of moment: what the heck is he doing, it just looks dumb. But I am pretty sure that it's because the tactics, the tactics is quite possibly set low tempo, high timewasting, low creative freedom and personally "run with ball" often. So the player just do what the tactics told him to do. But it shouldn't be like this. It's no football. Players shouldn't do inappropriate things so frequently whatever tactics is given.

So putting together, the general feeling is that the tactics influence too much on how players perform in the ME from looks. But in fact the problem is that player in the ME isn't made intelligent and possessing common football knowledge enough. Make them smarter and we'll get a more enjoyable game. And we should be able to feel what moves the player is using instead of guessing what is he doing. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Does time-wasting influence players decisions to shoot etc?

If so thats crazy- and another example of where SI have complicated the tactical side for no reason.

Time-wasting should even be a slider- it should be in the form of tickboxes, maybe one to switch it on, and others to select how they time-waste, Eg: Keep ball in corners, delay setpieces, keep possession, even hammer the ball into Row Z (as I read somewhere that in the dying seconds some players do not shoot for goal, rather go as high as they can and try to waste time, whether this is true or not I dont know).

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by George Graham:

Does time-wasting influence players decisions to shoot etc? </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Well decrease "time wasting" slider means decrease the time player dwelling the ball. How many times you see the winger crosses the ball to Striker's feet in front of the box and suddenly the striker just shoot the ball, wasting no time. He doesn't control the ball by chest or pass to someone or try to shake his defenders, he just shoot aimlessly. I see a few, of course if you carelessly happened to tweak your tactics somewhere. I don't know, but this is just feeling in the end.

Well, always considering and talking about this is really tiring me. It's just really time-wasting. Better have some rest and go have some fun. Bye! icon_biggrin.gif

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I don't think you understanded him well, Arnoldzhu. he wanted to say it's crazy that timewasting slider influences shooting. it's absolutly ridiculous if it does, especialy on 1-20 scale, WTF I hope it doesn't. and I agree with George time wasting slider is the most questionable of them, for having 20 notches. I don't understand it. there should be 3 or 4 notches, or even better as he said, tickbox. not to mention that time wasting influences tempo now, and you have to have the right combination of both.

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Oh, yes, thanx! icon_wink.gif

I think currently the only thing we can do is pray we'll get a better ME and keep on playing the game if it's not so unplayable. icon_biggrin.gif I think too many of us have been explaining so in detail of what we think of current ME. Hopefully SI might understand but after all they may have their own opinion of the game and tweak ME in their own discretion, so we just sit tight and see what they can provide us. Cheers! icon_cool.gif

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well we all (SI included) want better match engine and we have so many opinoums here. they surely looked at this thread. we did what we could, now we can just hope for good resoult. and I'm very optimistic...lol

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I'm not going to disrespect anything that has been said here about the match engine, as there are obvious and well known "flaws".

I call them "flaws" rather than "issues" because I'm of the belief that it's always going to be difficult to "perfect" every single aspect of "emulating" realistic movement and plays on a football pitch.

For my own part, I've found that tinkering with the tactics has helped me understand the match engine better - as it is, and work with it. This has not detracted from my enjoyment of FM08, as I'm still of the opinion that overall, it is their best release to date.

I think that SI have in fairness, raised the height of expectations with all the additional features and aspects they've added to the game over the years, therefore it's not surprising that people's own expectations are heightened.

I'm all for any improvements to the game in general that SI make, be it via forthcoming patches or future releases.

I'm sure that they're always looking at ways to improve the match engine, given it's an integral part of the game that we all perhaps feel is THE single most importand aspect.

In my opinion, although I unfortunately don't have the time to participate myself, I believe that the launch of FM Live will iron out alot of issues with the "out of the box" versions of FM in the future. Through FM Live, SI have an instant community of beta testers in the gameplayers themselves. Undoubtably, findings from FM Live will be passed on to the normal releases of FM.

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<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by heathxxx:.

In my opinion, although I unfortunately don't have the time to participate myself, I believe that the launch of FM Live will iron out alot of issues with the "out of the box" versions of FM in the future. Through FM Live, SI have an instant community of beta testers in the gameplayers themselves. Undoubtably, findings from FM Live will be passed on to the normal releases of FM. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

This has already benefitted the work we have done on 802 immensely, via the FML beta.

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i am really surprised with enthusiasm mitja and others are trying to get an indepth view into a ME.

undoubtly match engine is flawed but i'd like to add that sometimes we are all a bit too subjective. a lot of times i can't believe what are my players doing on the field, but as i often watch real matches i see a lot of stupid mistakes by real players and true stars. from dwelling on the ball, to missing clear cut chances.

so, we should concentrate on real issues like shot on goal ratio and one on one misses or plenty of needless long shots...

there comes another problem as we are "only" users of the game not the creators in its core meaning. so, playing the game as i always did, extended highlights, i can't really tell if all the flaws are present because of my tactics or match engine.

even testing the engine on players part is really questionable as you actually never can tell why is something happening due to immense complexity of football game and all behind it.

to be more illustrative, it means that you can win a game and think it was because you pushed your defense a bit up the field, while it was due to bad luck, morale or team talk of the opponent.

on the next match day you can get thrashed for the same reason you've won your last game and this is the unpredictable part of footy match and managerial career.

despite the flaws. i find the game fun and still manage to have some success, i just hope the makers of the engine get this flaws ironed out.

cheers

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PaulC icon14.gif I just hope you didn't change slider bar options on team instruction, to let's say 4 or 5 icon_smile.gif

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one thing I was trying to do in last few days is to see why are MCs dwelling on ball and making cyrcles. (BTW, I still don't know what it means, if they are turning around, it shouldn't take 1.5 second to do it), anyway they act a little better (don't dwell so much);

- if their mentality isn't high-> they will make more passes to defenders

- TTB to often-> less dweling for passing forward options.

- low creative freedom-> don't think just pass

- RwB often. it might help for those MCs who are good at dribling, but not a very smart thing to do.

- mixed passing-> more options

I must say I realy tried many, many things and at those instructions it looks a little better. my conclussion is that they are not using the space to run with ball. and I don't mean to drible, just RwB where is room. this was increased with official 8.0.1 but still not enough. of course playing very wide formations and 4-4-2 with arrows makes it even worse due to wingers and striker poor movement- comming for the pass.

I think more use of RwB, should defenetly fix this quite a lot. we see players in real life to:

a) pass as soon as possibile

b) if pass is not availible he runs with ball, uses free space, tries to make free space to pass the ball

c) clear the ball afterall. defenetly not holding the ball and waiting to loose it

all this should also be taken into account of player quality. while any, a little bit better premierleague player, should have the ability (techniqe, decision, composure) to try things a) and b), low quality players should loose the ball and dwell on it more often. as well as clear it in the first place.

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So nice to see Paul here icon14.gif

I'm so happy today for some personal reason and it really makes me excited seeing the promising future according to Paul the 802 will be a great patch with so much hard work from people gathering info. from FML. Yeah!

No more to say. Good work! Cheers! icon_cool.gificon_biggrin.gif

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I think one area needs to improve greatly is still the movement and position when attacking. I don't hope, however, by furtherly improving attacking we'll get more shooting chances. Of course the defence also needs improving. Thus, we can balance the attacking and defending and it will become more like real life football.

Currently, using normal flat 442, we'll certainly notice that when winger gets the ball, he's always isolated. If you're playing widely, then it appears more obviously. When the winger possess high ability, it's ok cos' he can dribble pass defenders and cross. If he's not so good, quite possiblly he'll be surrounded by 2 or 3 defenders since AI seems to make tactics better in defending.

Well, anyway I'm trying to say that when attacking players should come closer to provide passing options and play co-operation within certain small areas. Irl we can see the attacking through wings is not like what we see in the game. So this must be improved and another one as Mitja said, is the dribble in midfield. Player should take ball forward if there's room in midfield cos' irl it's a great chance for attacking and it's a big mistake for the other side opening such a big leak in center.

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TIME WASTING SLIDER

most questionable one. is there realy a need to have 20 notches? anyway this my wiew on it.

1. RARELY

this is normal aproach for any team that expects a win in forthcoming match. home or awey. GKs shouldn't leave ball go to goal out if they can catch it, more quick free kicks (jet to see)...

2. MIXED

aproach for teams which don't want to loose in a match. time wasting when apropriate- team is in no hurry. they want a draw or score from counter attack. less quick free kicks...

3. OFTEN

aproach when team's odds are strongly against them, when they'd be more then happy to draw the game or not to get hammered. time wasting also at the end of the narrow matches. team delibertly holds the play at any time. important aspect of this tactic is also to disrupt other team's playing tempo.

I think 3 or 6 notches would be enough. this is important also becouse time wasting slider influences tempo and mentality slider now. with decrease of TW slider wich doesn't affect (directly) tempo and mentality, we would know exactly how much time we want to waste.

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I'd go even further Mitja, you're either time wasting as a team or not or time wasting as an individual or not.

Imo you need 2 settings for the team yes/no and if you want to be totally realistic you extend that to individual instructions too.

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Has anyone noticed of the file size of FM.exe?

In 8.0 when the game was originally installed the size of FM.exe is about 36MB. But when you updated to 8.0.1 it becomes only about 21MB. So is there a problem? I still think the 8.0 is a different match engine against 8.0.1 which I wildly guess is only an upgrade match engine from 7.0.2. Because it's more consistent and tested. 8.0 ME is great but contains more so-called 'bugs'. The goals are always acceptable even from opponents cos' you feel the scorer is really outperforming. But in 8.0.1 when you concede a goal you always like this: WTF is wrong with our defensive formation.

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This is insane, I just had a game with 52 shot on goal! ? and we only won 0-3 icon_frown.gif

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Kaka had 19 shot on goal. Well atleast my tactic is working... just release that patch as soon as possible please icon_smile.gif

crazymatch3ke4.th.jpg

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I wonder how many shots is a record. I don't play the game at the moment. waiting for patch icon_frown.gif

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Mitja, as to your question in the other post I'd rather still speak it here. Because recently I've been trying to continue playing the game in original version which is 8.0 of course, and I am quite sure it has totally different engine from what we have later in 8.0.1. And that's why I said: people today are really not honest. But of course, it's kind of taking risk for me to dare say this kind of words, since I could be wrong. And I don't know if I should apologize, after all, it is just personal vague feeling. But from the total ME performance I get from 8.0 comparing 8.0.1 and from the file size of FM.exe of 8.0 (36MB) comparing the file size of 8.0.1 (21MB), I think I shouldn't be blamed to have this suspicion and questioning. Yeah, that's my feeling. It's not tweaked, it's just different engine as I can feel. So anyway, I'm just looking forward to the performace of match engine in 8.0.2. Let's keep our fingers crossed.

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I'm wondering about one thing. just can't understand why are there 6 notches of OWN AREA in closing down slider. what is a definition of own area in FM. does any manager in the world wants his player's to start pressing in own area. this is an serious issue, at least linguistic one.

should't it be more like.

- 1st notch: back off

- 2nd notch: own half......

what do you think?

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Yeah, absolutely. The tactic slider system we've got now doens't indicate clearly what results we'll get on the pitch. For example, if I want my fullback to overlap when attacking and come back to hold his position when defending, in real life maybe we just only need to tell the player directly or maybe add some more instructions like: if you feel tired in 2nd half you can decrease the frequency of overlapping. But how do we translate into sliders, I don't know, to be honest. As far as I can see, in 8.0.1 fullback overflapping is much poorer than in 8.0 since they're maybe just different engine as I had pointed out. Anyway, we need and we have to know exactly what kind each effect we'll get when we're moving each notch of those sliders.

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