match engine

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:

so I'd like to say that at least there's one thing in common sense that tactics should influence much less on the players when it comes to some basic situations and basic knowledge of playing football. I mean no matter what tactics is given to players they should know what and how to do under some certain circumstances cos' they're professional football players. It's just like the language we are using, whatever language there's always language first and then people can summary out some grammar. But the language(football) itself is always fluent and alive, the grammar(tactics) is just some rigid and stiff rules. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

that's the whole point. players play football not managers. I don't know maybe it's up to some 10-20% what a really good manager can do. but not only with tactics; good atmosphere- man mangment, mental preperation- motivating, building a team. when kick off starts it's all up to the players. I can remember anly 2 great examples of "managerial tryumph"; otto rehagehl when Greece won Euro and Porto (CL) under mourinho. there were some others, surely...

[Genuine_quality]

Its amazing that after many versions of the game, there has still never been an answer for constantly missing apparently simple one on ones in ratio to utterly impossible long shots etc, its always some ambiguous crap about tactics making your strikers miss one on ones duh

[Hawshiels]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Genuine_quality:

Its amazing that after many versions of the game, there has still never been an answer for constantly missing apparently simple one on ones in ratio to utterly impossible long shots etc, its always some ambiguous crap about tactics making your strikers miss one on ones duh </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I can confirm that tactics can reduce the number of shots at goal and in doing so improve the shots/goal ratio. There are various ways you can do this to ensure that your players get into better positions before shooting. So tactics do help to some degree.

However, it is understandable that SI had to reduce the effectiveness of strikers in this version, otherwise scores would be 23-19 or thereabouts. The problem appears to me to be caused as a result of improvements in the attacking behaviour and positions of attacking players, but a relatively ineffective defensive counter measure. SI are also playing the game and they'll have noticed this too, so I'd expect a few changes in the forthcoming patch and then further improvements for the next release.

If you are having lots of shots on goal with little success, I can suggest that your tactics will currently include all or some of the following:

- fast'ish tempo

- short'ish passing

- medium/high creative freedom

- lots of width

- counter attacking

If your tactics do include the above, it is encouraging this shooting behaviour. Of course in real life, this would not necessarily be the case, but in the game, this does add up to a poor shots/goal ratio.

So, either change the tactics, or wait until a new patch comes out that hopefully tweaks some of these issues in the match engine.

And before I get flamed (I think that's the word people use), I am not defending the match engine, I am just saying that you can use tactics to overcome this problem a little which should hopefully help people enjoy it more in the meantime.

[leftback in the changing room]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Hawshiels:

<Snipped Hawshiels accurately describing the workings of the ME> </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I think what mantis said is very imoprtant and he has every right to say what he wants. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Even if he is making an assumption about the way the game works that is wrong, wrong and wrong?

When you start the game, it has already been played out to the end of the first half. The game assumes that YOU the player will not make a change. Whereas the AI knows that it will go more defensive after 20 minutes to counteract your formation; that it will replace player X with player Y when player X gets injured on 33 minutes; and that it will score a breakaway goal after 44 minutes.

If you do NOTHING to change your team, this will play out.

If however you change your team, the way the match plays out is recalculated. Suddenly player X doesn't get injured on 33 minutes but will instead score an own goal on 42.

Repeat the process for the second half.

Now this is the key bit, so it's in bold: Whether you watch the full match, extended highlights, key highlights or the text commentary, EXACTLY the same process played out each time. It will not change depending on what game view you use.

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I noticed that too. as I said 10 off sides in 20 minutes and none after that, 3 tackles and then suddenly 15. it might be a coincidence, but this is happening to me all the time. to go further on that metter, check out the amount of off sides on your games and then check out it's number on other matches. I don't take things for granted and I believe only what I see, more than what I read. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

A person plays the game in an infinite number of ways. The AI has a large number of fixed method of 'playing'. It is likely that the results in an AI v AI game would play out differently to a Human - who has strange ideas about 'real life' football and how they can be recreated in the game - versus the AI game and that THIS explains the differences in offsides, shots on goal, etc. etc.

As we know SI broadly test the match engine with AI versus AI tests - it is not beyond the realms of possibility that we are seeing the match engine tuned to AI v AI and that it needs balancing to reflect the illogical behaviour of the human manager.

This is where FM Live will be a huge advantage. Match engine testing with hundreds of thousnds of human users as a sample, rather than sampling thousands of AI v AI games to find a good statistical average.

[Hawshiels]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by leftback in the changing room:

This is where FM Live will be a huge advantage. Match engine testing with hundreds of thousnds of human users as a sample, rather than sampling thousands of AI v AI games to find a good statistical average. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I have had my reservations about the direction that FM Live will take the FM series, but I agree 100% that the match engine could be made much much better with the number of human player tests they will have at their disposal. It will give SI an excellent testbed if they choose to use it this way.

[Mitja]

posted by F.N.G.

Generally sound advice Cleon, but I think waht frustrates most people is the need to have to spend two minutes analysing the last match, and then preparing and tweaking your formation to counter the next team. Don't get me wrong, I'm sure it's much more realistic than just sticking to the same team and tactic week in week out, but what frustrates most people is that there is too much emphasis on tactics, and not enough on quality players.

Teams like Chelsea (yes, I play as Chelsea mainly, yes, I am a fan) should be able to put out a strong team with the same tactic and beat teams far weaker than them. It should be up to the weak teams to worry about them, not vice versa. Why should we have to also build a tactic around other teams weaknesses, rather than or own team#s strengths? This is the first incarnation of the game I've felt I HAD to play full backs, because my usual three centre backs just won't work, no matter how good they are, and how poor the opposition strikers are.

I think the other major frustration (as has been posted many times elsewhere) is creating many oppertunities, and seeing world class strikers sky the ball or pass it to the keeper when one on one. And this is with low tempo, short passing, all the usual ways to imrpove.

I'm not moaning it's too hard, I can usually win the league, have won a few champions leagues, cups etc (realistic), but I'm just getting tired of seeing my side lead 1-0 on 90mins and seeing them draw 1-1 in the 95th min (after only 3mins of stoppage time has been added) from a corner or long shot. Almost 3/4 of the time (not exagerrating, actually counted) the opposition keeper gets MOM. Seeing the DMC (who is allegedly continental class) dwell on the ball time after time, and giving away goals... the list goes on.

Is the match engine flawed? In my opinion, yes, but I think it's been done with the best intentions to make it more challenging, and to make it more true to life in the way that on any given day, any team can beat anyone else. I just think this happens far too often. Will I stick with it? Of course. But where I used to spend a good few hours before getting mad and storming off in a huff after losing (usually for being arrogant and sending reserves out against 'weaker teams; (like Spurs Wink), I now find myself only spending the odd half hour, (after Lewis Price saves 20 shots on target and Nyatanga eqalises for Derby, for instance - and that's with a full strength side) before wanting to smack something.

The point of this long, rambling post is to say that for me, the main fun of FM is buying players, seeing how they do and selling them, the games themselves are kind of a side show. I used to get through a whole season in a week sometimes. Now each game takes 10mins (because, as you say, you learn nothing from the highlights), needs analysis, and tweaking. It's gained a new level of depth, and lost the simplicity that made it fun.

[Mitja]

written by paoloween:

It's more or less what I've always said, tactics just have too big a impact on matches in this game. Yes IRL tactics are important thats a fact, but it's the players that are the most important thing.

Tactics IRL is all about getting that 20% advantage over your opponents or on the odd occasion slightly more.

It IS NOT the difference between getting battered by a rubbish team or hammering them, it is very rarely this dramatic IRL.

The other problem is having to change tactics during games depending on the situation. I read some people here who have 4/5 different tactic sets that they flick between, and these same people have the audacity to call this realistic.

IRL managers DO NOT dramatically change tactics during games, why? because it is more or less impossible to. How can a manager change so much from the sidelines? maybe the odd little thing or 2 yes but nothing much.

For example when you are dominating a match and you then take the lead, so often the game just dramatically changes its almost like the computer flick a switch to start having chances. I read people on here say well you need to change your tactics etc. NONSENSE, this is not realistic.

First of all IRL when a team takes the lead in particular if they are the better stronger team, they will normally start to dominate even more as the weaker opponents heads will often drop.

I mean yes IRL managers may have presets game plans before a match etc. For example a manager might give his team instructions to sit back and play more defensively if his side takes the lead, particularly away from home, maybe even for just 15 mins after to keep it tight etc. Once the match has started though the manager can do very little to change much, only the odd thing and maybe the shape of the team can be changed etc.

Therefore a big problem with this game is the AI's ability to dramatically change tactics during games (and normally hidden like mentality etc, not a change of shape which would be easier to spot) and it can have too much of a dramatic impact on games, almost instantly changing. It's just not realistic and very frustrating.

[andu1]

I,ve started a game with real playing only on commentary mode.For tactics i use a flat 4-4-2.Guess what im undeafeated in almost 20 games,beat even barca at nou camp.If i switch in game from commentary to 2d mode i get hammered by teams like cska moscow.Something is very wrong about this game...

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andu1:

I,ve started a game with real playing only on commentary mode.For tactics i use a flat 4-4-2.Guess what im undeafeated in almost 20 games,beat even barca at nou camp.If i switch in game from commentary to 2d mode i get hammered by teams like cska moscow.Something is very wrong about this game... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

lol, proofs, evidence???

[Mitja]

....I mean you shouldn't be talking about that.

[Mitja]

big discussion on similar metter can also be found here:

http://community.sigames.com/eve/forums/a/tpc/f/1519717/m/6432087473

[andu1]

http://img84.imageshack.us/my.php?image=realzo7.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tacticpy9.jpg

http://img227.imageshack.us/my.php?image=weirdyo7.jpg

Last one is from the game with Cska.I switch to 2d extended highlits from 70 to 80 minute and look what happened. If it's a coincidence then it's a big one.

[Mitja]

do you experience strange too many chances, long shots, off sides on your only commentary matches? can you post some match stats?

[Mitja]

if you don't experience all that (and if you are on 8.0.1 patcd, of course), can you play some matches in full mode?

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by andu1:

I,ve started a game with real playing only on commentary mode.For tactics i use a flat 4-4-2.Guess what im undeafeated in almost 20 games,beat even barca at nou camp.If i switch in game from commentary to 2d mode i get hammered by teams like cska moscow.Something is very wrong about this game... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

great form,by the way...

you gave me an idea for a little experiment. probably know what I'm talking about. anyway if you feel to perticipate in it, you are more then wellcome.....know I must learn how to upload an image.

[Arnoldzhu]

Thanks again, Mitja.

I just finished testing again. The background is like this: Start the game using 8.0 database and 8.0 program. Select EPL only and control ManUtd in default manager name, birthday, nationality and "international professional football player" reputation cos' I don't want my lad in low morale if their manager is too inexperienced.

So the game starts. Don't touch anything and go directly to the first friendly match of the season. Team Selection is as follows:

GK: Van der Sar

DF: Wes Brown, Ferdinand, Vidic, Evra

MF: Ronaldo, Carrick, Anderson, Giggs

FW: Rooney, Tevez

Formation is default 442 with ML/R farraows to up frontline. That is 442 attacking formation exactly.

My conclusion first: the match engine in 8.0 is way much better than in 8.0.1.

In 8.0, the match is enjoyable and I'm actually happy watching my players doing clever but normal things cos' it's like real life. The movement of the 2 MCs are just nice, they always come closer to provide passing options for fullback and wigers and Aderson who is set "forward runs often" do make "forward runs" and he scored once in another test of match. You can see beautiful movements of attacking players. The player through balls, sometimes sholding the ball the pass to the overlapping fullbacks and sometimes pass the ball back for deeper position players to take long shot. They even tried to make chip balls over the defenders head into penalty area. In a word, it's like-life match engine and it's enjoyable. I really can't see any obvious bug, of course there must be some bug and I only played a few friendly matches in one club team. But for gods sake it's good in 8.0 whatsoever.

In 8.0.1 I still win the game with score of 6-0 while in 8.0 I win 7-0. But the match was uglier and less enjoyable to be honest. I have proof of course of both match PKM, though I don't know how to upload them. In 8.0 they make some really beautiful creative passess into the box. With 8.0.1 players seems to move slower and always at a loss with ball under feet, seems they don't know what to do or where to pass the ball. Looks so stupid to me. And anderson never make "forward runs often". And matches are played under the utterly same circumstances as I have pointed out earlier.

Finally to summarize my feelings after doing the test on the match engine with 8.0 versus 8.0.1.

1.The first touch thing in 8.0 sometimes has some problem just like what is said in the changelist of 8.0.1 and it's been fixed in 8.0.1

2.I don't see any other obvious problems with 8.0 match engine. I never feel there's the "closing down" bug. In 8.0.1 I even feel the closing down is a bug. The defensive formation is not so good and sometimes I have to tune down closing down a bit.

3.8.0.1 tuned down acceleration too much. You feel your players are just wandering. In my opinion, the speed of running in 8.0 is just fine. I hope it can be tuned back to what it was.

4. In 8.0.1 the first moment player receive the ball they always seem to pause in a sudden maybe that's ok cos' they may have to look up to other players' position, but then they seem to be still at a loss as to where to pass the ball or hesitate to dribble until opponent come to compete for the ball. In 8.0 the passing and receiving is just nice, fluent, flowing. Players always moving to find and provide passing options. I tell you, this is the biggest issue and if you try and look at the highlights in full screen mode carefully, you can tell the difference.

5. My opinion is just like this: The game should be made more easier but, but, that doesn't mean let us easily win every match and every title. It's all about realism, like-life. As long as it looks real I would be happy and enjoying playing the game no matter if I'm winning or losing. The stats can be made to be "in line with real world data" but the performace with realism on the pitch is most important. When can we see the movement of players in the match engine is in line with real world player performance?

6. In 8.0 match engine I see the bright future of this game. Football fans as we're, the first and most enjoyable thing is to watch the matches of our favourite team, right? We'd love to see those beautiful movements and goal scorings. It's football itself. Then we might get to discuss about tactics and transfers.

7. So maybe I just go on playing with 8.0 cos' that makes me addicted and enjoying the game. And I don't give a s**t to those bugs which might cause any other stats problem. Otherwise I'll just get bored even if I could win all the matches and titles.

[Kriss]

I have had my reservations about the direction that FM Live will take the FM series, but I agree 100% that the match engine could be made much much better with the number of human player tests they will have at their disposal. It will give SI an excellent testbed if they choose to use it this way.

Already over 2000 playing and the data being used for analysis.

It's fascinating to see how the same ME reacts when 2 humans are the players.

Too early yet but I look forward to seeing discussions about it on this and the FML forums.

I wouldn't worry about the future of FM or FML as long as this sort of interest and constructive critique continues.

[Arnoldzhu]

I just went through the changelist of 8.0.1 again and have to admit that SI did a lot of hark work in it. So fairly speaking maybe on many issues I didn't get to the point cos' I only have some vague feeling through several matches played. And I do believe SI make patches to fix bugs to give the game more realism. But at least I have to stress again on 2 points:

1. Football is technique thing. Jumping should never play that much effect. "Heading" should be greatly improved in the match engine. Look into real life football, the player with better anitcipation and who uses better technique to stand in better position first will be able to take control of the ball or make a header pass to his team mates. Jumping high in this kind of situation always lead to foul by the high-jumper as we can always see in real life matches who almost sit on other's shoulders.

2. Movement, movement again. Frequent moves, co-operations, teamworks, intricate passings, more one-twos, more back-heel passes,etc. Better marking and better sense of covering when defending.

[Mitja]

again you provided some interesting data. it looks like 8.0 and 8.0.1 are 2 different ME's.

as far as I remember there are 3 major bugs with 8.0 which make it unplayable. closing down (set it on 1 and then to 20, you won't see any difference) and disallowed goals/off side and too many fouls.

PS I don't remeber I ever saw a back heel pass

[Arnoldzhu]

Well, I dare not say they are totally different, it's just kinda feeling you know. As you can see in the changelist the match engine has been tweaked so much that it makes us feel there's quite much difference between the two.

But since I won't continue my game with 8.0.1 it seems that switching between 8.0 and 8.0.1 to test the different performances of the 2 version match engines is my only enjoyment and fun recently. lol

Yes I know 8.0 has bugs and that's why we have 8.0.1 now. But some nice moves in 8.0 just disappeard from 8.0.1. And of course in 8.0.1 there's some other nice realistic performances but still it seems they happen too rarely. And the general intelligence of players in 8.0.1 is not so good as in 8.0.

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:

Well, I dare not say they are totally different, it's just kinda feeling you know. As you can see in the changelist the match engine has been tweaked so much that it makes us feel there's quite much difference between the two.

But since I won't continue my game with 8.0.1 it seems that switching between 8.0 and 8.0.1 to test the different performances of the 2 version match engines is my only enjoyment and fun recently. lol

Yes I know 8.0 has bugs and that's why we have 8.0.1 now. But some nice moves in 8.0 just disappeard from 8.0.1. And of course in 8.0.1 there's some other nice realistic performances but still it seems they happen too rarely. And the general intelligence of players in 8.0.1 is not so good as in 8.0. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

looks like everybody's on experiments thesedays. I'm also starting with one experiment. I will try to compare if the game (ME) acts differently when watching matches and commentary only. my first 10 matches I'll play on commentary and then moce to watching. this won't be hard to figure out the difference.

it's been on my mind since introdution of 2D ME, when the difference was obvious (on 1st FM with 2D ME).

[George Graham]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:

Well, I dare not say they are totally different, it's just kinda feeling you know. As you can see in the changelist the match engine has been tweaked so much that it makes us feel there's quite much difference between the two.

But since I won't continue my game with 8.0.1 it seems that switching between 8.0 and 8.0.1 to test the different performances of the 2 version match engines is my only enjoyment and fun recently. lol

Yes I know 8.0 has bugs and that's why we have 8.0.1 now. But some nice moves in 8.0 just disappeard from 8.0.1. And of course in 8.0.1 there's some other nice realistic performances but still it seems they happen too rarely. And the general intelligence of players in 8.0.1 is not so good as in 8.0. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Agree- I know its rather simplistic in saying this but I felt that "all" SI had to do was sort out the defending, the rest of 8.00 was pretty much on the money for me, and I could certainly see a massive change over FM07s ME and the potential for the FM08 to be, well simply sublime. I cant underline enough how good it felt at times, even with the obvious issues.

Thats why 8.01 is so frustrating- disregarding the obvious shot ratio issues even, the 8.01 ME is a shadow of what 8.00 seemed to have the potential to evolve into.

Im perplexed as to why anybody at SI would think 8.01s ME would be acceptable after we had been "teased" by the potential of the 8.00 engine.

[Arnoldzhu]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content"> I'm also starting with one experiment. I will try to compare if the game (ME) acts differently when watching matches and commentary only. my first 10 matches I'll play on commentary and then moce to watching. this won't be hard to figure out the difference.

it's been on my mind since introdution of 2D ME, when the difference was obvious (on 1st FM with 2D ME). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Oh, really, interesting. Just now I played a friendly match using Liverpool against some FC Dallas. (8.0.1) It seems it's hard to organize threatening attacks. Highlights just seems to be repeating same movements. Can't score a goal. I don't understand why my players just blindly shoot the ball and always got deflected. And in second half FC Dallas scored a strange goal it looks like a cross but deflected and the ball just slowly roll into the net. No one ever bother to try dispose the danger. Of course, the keeper went for the wrong side of the door. It reminds me one point is that players seem to react not quick enough in 8.0.1. That needs to be looking into I think. Finally, surely, I quit the game immediately, again, with despair. And it's not because I lost the game of course. I don't say, you know why.

[Arnoldzhu]

Oh, I have to add one thing that the ball actully didn't roll into the net. Because it stopped after just went pass the line. So you see how slooow the ball actully was.

[Arnoldzhu]

Ah! yes, one more thing. About the reaction of players, the keeper obviously seems to have a little too much quicker reaction on the contrary. You know I have very good quick reflex and I played as GK when young. But I run very slowly. Now the outfield players on the 8.0.1 pitch seems to be worse than me because of their low reaction and more lazier than me because of their lack of wide range moving and running. Haha!

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Arnoldzhu:

Ah! yes, one more thing. About the reaction of players, the keeper obviously seems to have a little too much quicker reaction on the contrary. You know I have very good quick reflex and I played as GK when young. But I run very slowly. Now the outfield players on the 8.0.1 pitch seems to be worse than me because of their low reaction and more lazier than me because of their lack of wide range moving and running. Haha! </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

I just can't believe some people are satisfied with movement on 8.0.1. to me only full back's movement has improved from 07. don't off the ball is lesser problem then positioning.

my experiment will be very interesting I think. my first asumption is allready happened. that Cesc will get injured soon. it acctually happened in 1st match.

also some ME asumptions happened, but it is still too early for conclussions, thanks Andu1.

[mantis616]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">I'm also starting with one experiment. I will try to compare if the game (ME) acts differently when watching matches and commentary only. my first 10 matches I'll play on commentary and then moce to watching. this won't be hard to figure out the difference.

it's been on my mind since introdution of 2D ME, when the difference was obvious (on 1st FM with 2D ME). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

Hey Mitja, please feed us back when you have something as proof. As i told here before, heard too many complains about them(ME&Only Comm.) being different. Wondering if it's really this common.

[gonzo7]

Whats makes me laugh win the ME within 8.01 is that Dave Nugent is the only striker I've found who can consistently score 1 0n 1's.

The ME's not great but I'm just getting on with it. Moaning will not make the next patch come faster so why bother?

[Mitja]

mantis, of course I will. I just need help becouse I don't know how to up'load the file. I know imageshack, but I'm stuck on the print screen...

[Mitja]

more I think about how easy it could be to sort this tactical system... this sliders are so un unrealistic. you need to make the right combination of them, I mean wouldn't it be easier to ectually tell player what you want him to do, I mean it's only a click. now ME must consider so many combinations, it doesn't suprise me it's buggy.

not to mention how many new options that would bring (by telling players what you want-> giving duties).

[Powermonger]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

more I think about how easy it could be to sort this tactical system... this sliders are so un unrealistic. you need to make the right combination of them, I mean wouldn't it be easier to ectually tell player what you want him to do, I mean it's only a click. now ME must consider so many combinations, it doesn't suprise me it's buggy.

not to mention how many new options that would bring (by telling players what you want-> giving duties). </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why the wibble/wobble screen was good, while not really realistic but it did make tactic creation easier and individual instructions less complex.

The slider system is just as unrealistic I feel but worse still even more difficult to understand. With some sliders having 21 different slider positions, it's very unclear to see what a single increment of a slider does and makes it frustrating to comprehend and feel comfortable with.

[mantis616]

ok, just print screen, open paint, ctrl + v, save as x.jpg, open imageshack, find the file to upload and do it. then paste the link here

[Mitja]

it can't be that easy, thanks.

[UELLfan]

One thing I really hate about the ME is my wingers and strikers not closing back on the oposition defenders once they get past them.

I'll elaborate a bit, it's just like if my AML, ST and AMR only pressed the oposition in a small frame of one inch in my screen. If the oposition are closer to their goal they won't press and if they've passed that magical line they won't track back to keep pressing.

This creates a safety zone in which the oposition defenders can pass the ball safely (out of reach for the DMC and two MCs and past the influence zone of said players) and keep passing the ball endlessly there until they hoof it up.

[Mitja]

my experiment is in danger at the moment

4 games; 1-2-1, 3+ 3-

it looks like my strikers are having problems scoring... hmmm, isn't that familliar? even though still no SOT/G Ratio problems.

[DJ68Alkmaar]

2 quick thoughts as I'm in a real hurry today:

1.FM2008 has achieved what I thought would never happen. It has destroyed my enthusiasm for Football Manager, and I've been playing regularly since CM00/01. The reason ? The match engine. Instead of perfecting (or as close as any simulation cna get) a match engine that was relatively realistic (the last one, FM 2007 fully patched), they decided to re-design from scratch, ruin all the progress achieved over the years and take, IMO, a big step back. Why can't they content themselves with incremental steps forward with a settled game engine, rather than taking a revolutionary approach? The love affair is over for me.....

2. I hate sliders ! How, in any way, does this reflect reality ? Does a real manager, before the game, or at half time, say: "right lads, on a scale of 1-20, I want your attacking mentality to be about 16" !! Language is not so precise. The old system of: ultra-defensive; defensive; normal; attacking; gung-ho was more realistic in that it reflected the limitations of human language and communication. CM?FM and the old EHM used to get this right.

I still think the basic structure of the game is superb. I came back to it over and over again for about 8 years. But I'm sorry to say that SI have lost the plot a little bit....

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by DJ68Alkmaar:

2 quick thoughts as I'm in a real hurry today:

1.FM2008 has achieved what I thought would never happen. It has destroyed my enthusiasm for Football Manager, and I've been playing regularly since CM00/01. The reason ? The match engine. Instead of perfecting (or as close as any simulation cna get) a match engine that was relatively realistic (the last one, FM 2007 fully patched), they decided to re-design from scratch, ruin all the progress achieved over the years and take, IMO, a big step back. Why can't they content themselves with incremental steps forward with a settled game engine, rather than taking a revolutionary approach? The love affair is over for me.....

2. I hate sliders ! How, in any way, does this reflect reality ? Does a real manager, before the game, or at half time, say: "right lads, on a scale of 1-20, I want your attacking mentality to be about 16" !! Language is not so precise. The old system of: ultra-defensive; defensive; normal; attacking; gung-ho was more realistic in that it reflected the limitations of human language and communication. CM?FM and the old EHM used to get this right.

I still think the basic structure of the game is superb. I came back to it over and over again for about 8 years. But I'm sorry to say that SI have lost the plot a little bit.... </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

many SI staff are on forums for the last couple of days. I think we're making some good debates here and whiming turned into constructive and open expression of our feelings. they could at least say something (maybe try to defend the game), becouse this silence meens they messed up big time.

[Arnoldzhu]

Well I really don't expect SI staff comes out and say: hey! this is a good idea/suggestion we'll deploy/correct this one. But I believe they will be reading and thinking carefully. And if there's something need to be changed, it will be changed. And we don't need to close SI down to much, because we'll never get to the ball -- it's always under their feet -- they develop the program of the game. We should work together to make the game better by providing thoughtful thoughts and constructive ideas. So that both SI and us will get benefit from the improvement on the game. We should try being understanding and we might get better chance that SI will consider our moaning and ideas.

[Mitja]

[andu1]

Still no defeat -----http://img228.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tableil2.jpg----

If i think how much time i spent trying to improve the bloody tactics by watching the game on extended highligts the one im using is really trivial. And yeah,my game version is 8.0.1 114310

http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=tacticem0.jpg

http://img218.imageshack.us/my.php?image=instructionshk9.jpg

And a little experiment commentary vs full 2d match.

http://img99.imageshack.us/my.php?image=commentarytj6.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=commentary2gz1.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fullmatchfk9.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/my.php?image=fullmatchif5.jpg

Definetely for me this game is much more user friendly by using just commentary.

[Mitja]

tnx for reply andu1.

a little unrealistic resoult on 2nd pair of images (let me guess those are when wiewing match). but those resoults do happen IRE. if you are motivate to investigate further I'll be more then glad.

I also started the same experiment. played 5 matches only on commentary , nothing fancy 5 games, 2w, 2d, 1l. with arsenal. I must say that I got the feeling that tactics don't have to be teaked during matches. also I didn't find anything strange, except my players didn't score much. all stats also seemed fined.

now I played one match on full mode. beat birmingham 2-1. I must say it was one of those strange matches on FM (but good, to be fair). even though stats were fine, match was weird. scored 2 goals from penaltys and those chances that should have been scored wasn't (for both sides). it looks like scoring has become mystery to my team.

since I played my last game on 1st beta (with blackburn), I must say that some things are way better on official and some are far worse. movement of players is really beter by far. also fouls, off sides are fixed (as it seems). positioning or shall I say feamous "frequant black outs" by defenders is smth which is hard to understand. cleared ball and then strikers comes from no-where and a second after he is alone 1/1 with keeper. I don't remember I saw it against my (human) team (correct me if I'm wrong), so I think it's got smth to do with tactics or even team talks.

at the moment it's impossibile to make any smart conclussions, to me about ME behaviour on commentary and while watching.

[Mitja]

<BLOCKQUOTE class="ip-ubbcode-quote"><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-title">quote:</div><div class="ip-ubbcode-quote-content">Originally posted by Mitja:

tnx for reply andu1.

a little unrealistic resoult on 2nd pair of images (let me guess those are when wiewing match). but those resoults do happen IRE. if you are motivate to investigate further I'll be more then glad.

I also started the same experiment. played 5 matches only on commentary , nothing fancy 5 games, 2w, 2d, 1l. with arsenal. I must say that I got the feeling that tactics don't have to be teaked during matches. also I didn't find anything strange, except my players didn't score much. all stats also seemed fined.

now I played one match on full mode. beat birmingham 2-1. I must say it was one of those strange matches on FM (but good, to be fair). even though stats were fine, match was weird. scored 2 goals from penaltys and those chances that should have been scored wasn't (for both sides). it looks like scoring has become mystery to my team.

since I played my last game on 1st beta (with blackburn), I must say that some things are way better on official and some are far worse. movement of players is really beter by far. also fouls, off sides are fixed (as it seems). positioning or shall I say feamous "frequant black outs" by defenders is smth which is hard to understand. cleared ball and then strikers comes from no-where and a second after he is alone 1/1 with keeper. I don't remember I saw it against my (human) team (correct me if I'm wrong), so I think it's got smth to do with tactics or even team talks.

at the moment it's impossibile to make any smart conclussions, to me about ME behaviour on commentary and while watching. </div></BLOCKQUOTE>

forgot to tell the most important thing. 2 posts and 3-4 good chances were not scored.

[Mitja]

2nd match. still same story. nothing strange so far. stats still seem much as same as they were on commentary. controled match making plenty of good chances which strikers failed to convert. still occasional black outs. but I'm yet to see decent cross.

I did this and it's interesting to me (player instructions).

- forward runs to often to all players. ***DC to mixed

-run with ball to often *** DC MC mixed

-through balls all mixed *** whole midfield often

-fair amounts of creative freedom for all players except DC*** 5 notces& 7 mentality

-high closing down for all players including DC *** 9

--------> I'll post links but still finding it impossibile

I find run with ball especially interesting. and I think that's the key to how AI's playing. I believe it means exactly that- run with ball not dribling. how much space should player use for moving forward instead of standing. I find it strange. on my next match I'll set all my players to run with ball often. I believe that could help MC just standing and making cyrcles. also when midfielders mix their passes with defenders, things look qiute OK. but I still miss wingers and strikers comming deep and that's very important. I know it's easy to set that up but I don't think it's fair to use any other formation that isn't used by AI also in this experiment (I never use such formations).

the same goes for through balls. I allways thought they are "killer balls", but it's about "passing the ball into space" instead. why I think this is strange; becouse I think passing the ball into space like run with ball should be the part of player's tactical knowledge and ability not tactical instruction. it would be logical to give your best passer that instruction, not whole team. I must feel sorry for anyone who played with defoult player instructions, if that's the case.

[Mitja]

andu1 do you experience super keepers and strange SOT/G ratio when playing only on commentary? as I still don't. (12 games into season, with pre season matches).

[Mitja]

resoults so far:

http://img81.imageshack.us/img81/1888/fixtures1sl2.jpg

[Mitja]

hope this better

http://img352.imageshack.us/img352/1848/fixtures1di3.jpg

[Mitja]

so I made a little test; does match engine work differently if the game is played only on commentary and if it's watched on full. the conclussion is that it shouldn't be the case, based on resoults and match stats.

so here are the links. pay attention to these match stats:

- SOT/G ratio

- posession

- off sides

- fouls

league standings:

http://img220.imageshack.us/img220/4679/standingspr8.jpg

resoults:

http://img528.imageshack.us/img528/7299/resoultsvb9.jpg

team instruction:

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/5605/tinstructionsxt6.jpg

some match stats (on commentary)

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/105/1styn8.jpg

http://img217.imageshack.us/img217/3813/3rduu1.jpg

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/9086/4they9.jpg

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/4967/5thzy6.jpg

2 matches on full highlights:

http://img230.imageshack.us/img230/5913/1stonfulltg5.jpg

http://img108.imageshack.us/img108/6287/2ndonfullvz3.jpg

[Jimbokav1971]

Mitja. If you are going to do any sort of experiment at all, you should really compare the same games with or without commentary. In any case it will make no difference as this has absolutely no affect on the outcome of matches.

Comparing different games is just about as silly as suggesting it in the first place.

[Mitja]

no my friend I don't agree. it might be silly to think the ME acts differently, OK.

comparing different games? do you think comparing the same game isn't silly with such experiment, as well, do you think the same game playing time after time isn't just another (different) game?

I said look at the match stats.... so it meens I was looking for a patern. will ther be an average of 15 off sides on matches played on full mode and only 6 on commentary..and so on.

I hope next time you write smth like this you could think for a second before you write it down

[Arnoldzhu]

I agree with Mitja.

And to support your conclusion, since I haven't done that kind of test on commentary thing, but I can be sure that they are using the same match engine. You know why, because when you play the match on commentary only mode, and when you goto change tactics, on the bottom there will be small screen showing 2d match is just still going on. Yes, that's it. Commentary only mode still works on 2d match engine. It's just it doesn't show the screen while it actually can when you changing tactics.