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Neil Brock

Football Manager 2017 Release Date and Pre Purchase Details Announced

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FM15 had far bigger issues, ME and match AI wise, than FM16 had, so it's a matter of opinion. FM16, in that area, was an improvement, so I expect FM17 to be as well. Certainly based on what's been revealed so far.

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So Hunter, you are pretty much saying the FM16 ME is way more playable than the FM15 ME? Fair enough. I just feel the crossing issue is a gamebreaker, but thats just my opinion. Each to their own I suppose. 

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Actually i agree with only 50% of that.

It's true that in terms of AI FM16 is better than FM15.

But, related with the ME i prefer the one from FM15. Simply put it, the ME from FM15 is less predictable from the FM16 ME. At least it's my opinion.

And that's a key point for me.

Edited by Keyzer Soze

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Just now, Preveza said:

So Hunter, you are pretty much saying the FM16 ME is way more playable than the FM15 ME? Fair enough. I just feel the crossing issue is a gamebreaker, but thats just my opinion. Each to their own I suppose. 

That's exactly what I'm saying. SOME people have issues with defending crosses, but it's easily dealt with. 

In FM15, I quickly got to the point where EVERY match had the AI start with a very defensive setup. Also, weaker teams (and those playing defensively) were just easy to dominate in EVERY match, because counter attacking was very weak.

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5 minutes ago, martplfc1 said:

'General negativity' suggests others are unhappy, no?

"General negativity" of a forum size is pretty small in comparison to the numbers that actually play the game. Many fans of the game have never even visited this place. But if you read through any feedback thread, on any edition of FM, its littered with negativity and you'd believe the game was on its knees. You'll never please everyone, and you'll never create a perfect product but I'd bet, out of the people that play the series, that there are more that enjoy the games, than don't.

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1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. SOME people have issues with defending crosses, but it's easily dealt with. 

In FM15, I quickly got to the point where EVERY match had the AI start with a very defensive setup. Also, weaker teams (and those playing defensively) were just easy to dominate in EVERY match, because counter attacking was very weak.

Cool. I was under the impression it was a 'bug', instead of the users tactics which caused overpowered crosses. 

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People who are enjoying a game, are playing it, while the ones who have issues are more often on the forums. In general the forums are very quiet these days, so even a small amount of negative posts could give an impression that there are a lot of unsatisfied customers. I think record pre-order figures are telling another story.

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4 minutes ago, Preveza said:

Cool. I was under the impression it was a 'bug', instead of the users tactics which caused overpowered crosses. 

There is an issue with how defenders deal with crosses, yes. That was a confirmed issue. 

The main problem was users being just far too attacking in general and especially the flanks. Or the opposite - leaving wingers far too open to get crosses from deep in.

I've even used narrow formations like the 442 diamond and still conceded less from crosses than RL figures, so it can be avoided.

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I've always never use 3D, i stick to 2D to breeze through season. What i expect from FM 17 is better AI squad management and selection of tactics. Just for an example of poor tactic judgment by AI , AI joachim Low takes charge of Arsenal and he uses a 4-4-1-1 formation with Isco in ML and K. Volland in MR position. Please allow AI managers to select tactics based on the squad at their disposal rather than preffered formations. It makes the challange ridiculosly easy.

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5 minutes ago, stevemc said:

"General negativity" of a forum size is pretty small in comparison to the numbers that actually play the game. Many fans of the game have never even visited this place. But if you read through any feedback thread, on any edition of FM, its littered with negativity and you'd believe the game was on its knees. You'll never please everyone, and you'll never create a perfect product but I'd bet, out of the people that play the series, that there are more that enjoy the games, than don't.

You asked me who thought 15 was better. I don't know anyone in real life who plays the game so can only go off here. I know for a fact that others on here prefer 15, as noted by one a few posts above.

Not saying everyone thinks this, just that there are others.

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The current problem with FM17 is that there is almost no info about new features except a short 3D highlight video and a teaser. Lack of info is not good, especially when it comes to key new features not related to ME - and this is disappointing for thousands of fans. 

Still, gonna play it :)

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4 minutes ago, Shevchenko said:

The current problem with FM17 is that there is almost no info about new features except a short 3D highlight video and a teaser. Lack of info is not good, especially when it comes to key new features not related to ME - and this is disappointing for thousands of fans. 

Still, gonna play it :)

And there will be information before the game is close to being released.

"fans" aren't showing disappointment, they're showing impatience.  Huge difference.

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1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

That's exactly what I'm saying. SOME people have issues with defending crosses, but it's easily dealt with. 

I don't agree it's easily dealt with. The only fix I found after managing for over 15 seasons was to play a very high line (which obviously leads to other defensive issues). More logical solutions such as playing centrebacks that are great in the air, playing with high width to reduce the space in the wings to the opposition, playing defensive fullbacks and/or wide midfielders, manmarking opposite fullbacks/wingers, none of these solutions seemed particularly effective. This is highly annoying, illogical, and unbalanced.

The conclusion I reached was that building a tactic that was based on a defensive strategy/deep block was simply not a viable solution in FM16 due to all the conceded goals from crosses, even if the counterattacking has been greatly improved.

 

1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

The main problem was users being just far too attacking in general and especially the flanks. Or the opposite - leaving wingers far too open to get crosses from deep in.

I've even used narrow formations like the 442 diamond and still conceded less from crosses than RL figures, so it can be avoided.

I'm not surprised you managed to concede few goals from crosses with a narrow formation. I never played a narrow formation myself on FM16, but I did notice some of the narrow formations the AI fielded against me were the most dangerous down the wings, despite the fact I outmanned them on the wings. Again, this is illogical and points to an inbalance somewhere. You'd expect narrow formations to be weaker down the wings, both going forward and defending (and stronger through the middle), yet this doesn't appear to be the case in FM16.

I feel like we've had this conversation before...

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Hi everyone,

Not gonna comment on the marketing strategy or anything (I don't like it, but it's not exactly as if I could do anything about it, so "meh"), nor the videos, but I do have another question and I hope I put it in the right topic.

So, basically I'm planning to buy the boxed version (as always, even if I lose the fidelity offer on steam), and my "new" place to go for my videogames cravings is confusing me. I can pre-order Football Manager 2017 for 44,99€, but also what they called "Football Manager 2017 Special edition" for 54,99€. I was wondering what the said "Special edition" was: was there anything released on that ? If not, was that shop not supposed to talk about it already, or did they take unknown hallucinogenic products and invented that edition ? Is the answer to all of this "42" ?

Thanks for the answers, and if I wasn't supposed to know already, I promise I won't blackmail you if you promise not to send secret agents to make me shut up :D

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9 minutes ago, forameuss said:

And there will be information before the game is close to being released.

"fans" aren't showing disappointment, they're showing impatience.  Huge difference.

For me, I am 100% patient :) And I am disappointed no extra info wasn't posted by now :) Though you can't tell it from my smilies :D , 

Disappointment or impatience, you can actually understand both those who preordered and those awaiting further info and a beta version before buying. There was usually a lot more info by this time when previous versions went out - interviews with Miles, etc. 

Example - almost two months before release:

Quote

Football Manager 2016 New Features Revealed

By Pete Sharland at 14:31 on September 7, 2015


Read more at http://www.squawka.com/news/football-manager-2016-new-features-revealed/457196#ySqH8s7AkWHy5qEs.99

 

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Just now, noikeee said:

I don't agree it's easily dealt with. The only fix I found after managing for over 15 seasons was to play a very high line (which obviously leads to other defensive issues). More logical solutions such as playing centrebacks that are great in the air, playing with high width to reduce the space in the wings to the opposition, playing defensive fullbacks and/or wide midfielders, manmarking opposite fullbacks/wingers, none of these solutions seemed particularly effective. This is highly annoying, illogical, and unbalanced.

The conclusion I reached was that building a tactic that was based on a defensive strategy/deep block was simply not a viable solution in FM16 due to all the conceded goals from crosses, even if the counterattacking has been greatly improved.

That's one way of doing it. You can play deep too though.

Width has nothing to do with defending. One key thing is to stop crosses in the first place. The other is to not have a line that is too high in comparison with the closing down. It's pointless having a high line, but too little pressure on the wide men, because they'll simply whip balls in behind the defence. So the height of the line and the amount of pressure on the wide players are important to note.

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Just now, Shevchenko said:

For me, I am 100% patient :) And I am disappointed no extra info wasn't posted by now :) Though you can't tell it from my smilies :D , 

Disappointment or impatience, you can actually understand both those who preordered and those awaiting further info and a beta version before buying. There was usually a lot more info by this time when previous versions went out - interviews with Miles, etc. 

Example:

 

I can understand both sides, yes.  But those who pre-ordered don't really have any right to be disappointed, given they could have just followed through on their disappointment by not buying until they did know more.

I can also understand those who haven't until they get any further info.  I'm one of them.

It doesn't really matter what went before.  They're doing it differently this year, and openly admitted it.

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1 minute ago, noikeee said:

I'm not surprised you managed to concede few goals from crosses with a narrow formation. I never played a narrow formation myself on FM16, but I did notice some of the narrow formations the AI fielded against me were the most dangerous down the wings, despite the fact I outmanned them on the wings. Again, this is illogical and points to an inbalance somewhere. You'd expect narrow formations to be weaker down the wings, both going forward and defending (and stronger through the middle), yet this doesn't appear to be the case in FM16.

I feel like we've had this conversation before...

Not really. Narrow formations congest play in the middle which opens space out wide when attacking. In defence, you need the midfield to help much more than other formations. Just need to strike a balance.

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Stay cool and be like this guy :) FM17 will be great fun, we all know it :) 

 

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1 minute ago, HUNT3R said:

That's one way of doing it. You can play deep too though.

Width has nothing to do with defending.

I've never managed to prevent crossed goals in FM16 with a passive/deep block.

I completely disagree that width is not connected to defending. Typically the narrower you play the more solid you are, because it's harder to pass the way through your defenders. However, by doing this you also concede space down the wings. The opposite should make you way more open, but also not gift as much space to wingers to cross in.

Quote

One key thing is to stop crosses in the first place. The other is to not have a line that is too high in comparison with the closing down. It's pointless having a high line, but too little pressure on the wide men, because they'll simply whip balls in behind the defence. So the height of the line and the amount of pressure on the wide players are important to note.

By "playing a high line" what I meant was also playing a high closing down/pressing game. These two concepts are interchangeable for me, because a high line and low closing down, or a low line and high closing down, will both lead to horrible results (which is pretty much the same thing you're saying).

But if you play a high pressing game (and a high line) your defence will be dragged away out of position pretty damn easily, and you're just swapping the problem of crosses for another whole lot of conceded goals down the ground. There doesn't seem to be a way in FM16 to stop both kinds of goals. In previous versions of FM you could be pretty comfortable with a high line (perhaps due to underpowered counterattacking, so yes this was probably unrealistic); or you could sit deep and wait for crosses pretty comfortably with good tall centre-backs and/or a bank of 4 or 5 in midfield that helped cover the wings.

This is what feels wrong to me because I seemed doomed to concede loads of goals no matter what. The most defensively sound I ever managed to be, was at a relatively high pressing game (but not too much - think Standard/Control mentalities with TIs for slight increase to closing down and defensive line) and a bank of 5 in midfield, on structured, but then this could also be very toothless upfront and in certain circumstances wasn't worth it. There's a whole lot of variables at play here of course, and I could just not have found a very good setup, but you'd expect that kind of game (defensively sound but toothless) to be produced by more cautious mentalities and deeper defensive blocks.

Dunno, the whole balance just doesn't feel right at all, and something's very strange around the wings.

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In theory the beta is supposed to be released within 2 weeks of the end of this week, so I'd expect the marketing to gather pace within the next few weeks.

I would just like a list of new features and screenshots, but I am old fashioned :kriss:

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Just now, noikeee said:

I completely disagree that width is not connected to defending. Typically the narrower you play the more solid you are, because it's harder to pass the way through your defenders. However, by doing this you also concede space down the wings. The opposite should make you way more open, but also not gift as much space to wingers to cross in.

 

The width you set is an in possession instruction. It has nothing to do with defensive width. At most, it affects you only indirectly as it takes a bit more time to narrow in defence if you play very wide.

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28 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Not really. Narrow formations congest play in the middle which opens space out wide when attacking. In defence, you need the midfield to help much more than other formations. Just need to strike a balance.

Well okay it makes sense, but I found that effect to be way too pronounced. When I faced narrow formations, I'd see my ML/MR (or AML/AMR, depending on my own formation) constantly dragged infield to help out with the numbers in midfield, leaving the opposition fullback completely free to surge from deep and cross. Meanwhile my own fullbacks would sit there and watch the situation from a distance with their eyes.

5 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

The width you set is an in possession instruction. It has nothing to do with defensive width.

I stand corrected then because I had no idea. I thought it affected both offensive and defensive width.

So a contain mentality will have the same defensive width as a overload mentality?

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2 hours ago, andu1 said:

AI joachim Low takes charge of Arsenal and he uses a 4-4-1-1 formation with Isco in ML and K. Volland in MR position.

Not sure that example supports your argument. My scouts (Man Utd) rate Isco as a four-star natural at ML, and Volland as a four-star natural at MR. I've never signed them myself, but when I'm looking for players for a 442/4411 those two always turn up among the leading targets.

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19 hours ago, KUBI said:

No, that's two different things. The complexity is in the ME, 3D are just animations which represent what happens.

Whilst that may be true, animations appear not to have caught up with the ME, eg: when a player is nudged off the ball it looks like they just run in the opposite direction, and theres no real amimation to show when a player is thrown off balance,  Some of the keepers animations also leave a lot to be desired.  Animations have some way to go before being a true reflection of what is going on under the hood.

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44 minutes ago, warlock said:

Not sure that example supports your argument. My scouts (Man Utd) rate Isco as a four-star natural at ML, and Volland as a four-star natural at MR. I've never signed them myself, but when I'm looking for players for a 442/4411 those two always turn up among the leading targets.

I am pretty sure they are much more effective in advanced positions. In fact the mr/ml positions offer only a few options like winger and wide midfielders which I m sure both are none of these. 

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4 hours ago, ak71 said:

Had a good look at the latest video.

Overall, been impressive with the 3D match engine animation.  Love to see the field being sprayed for free-kicks but why is it that on certain instances, it's not there..?  

Happy too to see the big screen at the stadium. 

However, not too impressed with how Stekelenburg parry the ball at 3:28.  To me, it does not look like a Premiership standard goalkeeping.

On top of that, i'd realise that there are too many cameraman at the back of the post.  They are immobile and have a small head. :D  If i remember correctly, there was animation for cameraman in FM2015 but not in FM2016.  Now in FM2017, it's also immobile.  Can we have mobility, please... 

 

To me they looked far more realistic in FM16 they look far too regimented now

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In my opinion the teaser looked better than the highlight video.  It looks pretty much the same as FM16

Someone posted that they thought the stadiums had improved, but they look the same as In FM16 to me

 

I hope the LED hordings can be turned off for lower leagues.  Also see my previous post on the cameramen

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1 hour ago, andu1 said:

I am pretty sure they are much more effective in advanced positions. In fact the mr/ml positions offer only a few options like winger and wide midfielders which I m sure both are none of these. 

Not sure why you would think that tbh. Nowhere near as clear cut as that. So many variables. Volland can definitely be used as a wide mid for example (used him there to great effect) And isco as a wide playmaker. 

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2 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

The width you set is an in possession instruction. It has nothing to do with defensive width. At most, it affects you only indirectly as it takes a bit more time to narrow in defence if you play very wide.

SI really need to enhance the settings available for the defensive phase, width and compaction need to be added as adjustable settings to control defensive team shape. 

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14 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

Not sure why you would think that tbh. Nowhere near as clear cut as that. So many variables. Volland can definitely be used as a wide mid for example (used him there to great effect) And isco as a wide playmaker. 

Let me put it this way. Would you as a human manager ever used them in those roles? they can play there of course but their effectivness is extremely reduced. So, we as a player can put players in their best roles while the AI is bound to a set of rules they must adhere to which sometimes is flawed.  Sounds to me a limiting factor in what the AI can achieve.

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19 minutes ago, andu1 said:

Let me put it this way. Would you as a human manager ever used them in those roles? they can play there of course but their effectivness is extremely reduced. So, we as a player can put players in their best roles while the AI is bound to a set of rules they must adhere to which sometimes is flawed.  Sounds to me a limiting factor in what the AI can achieve.

Yes I would and no their effectiveness would not extremely reduced. It's about the tactical setup.

Immediately saying they would be extremely reduced without any tactical consideration is wrong. This is more a discussion for the tactical forum, but very much incorrect to say that. 

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I hope the overpowered crossing is addressed in FM17.

More variation in goals and a match engine that illustrates how teams play correctly is the step forward we want.  I'm talking 2D as 3D doesn't interest me at all at it's current state.

 

Good luck!

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Quite worried about FM17 I feel like the lack of information SI are putting out suggests there aren't many great new features. I am trusting SI to put out a fixed/good game as I have pre-ordered the game blindly but if i'm disappointed by a ME which plays the same scenarios and generally frustrates me, I think i'll have to take a break from the game for a few years tbh. 

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9 minutes ago, Lordphylogeny said:

Quite worried about FM17 I feel like the lack of information SI are putting out suggests there aren't many great new features. I am trusting SI to put out a fixed/good game as I have pre-ordered the game blindly but if i'm disappointed by a ME which plays the same scenarios and generally frustrates me, I think i'll have to take a break from the game for a few years tbh. 

Currently we have seen no screenshots of training, regen faces, tactical settings, player roles and duties, scouting screens, team talks etc which I think have been worked on if there omission from the teaser is anything to go by.

We have also seen limited screens from ME analysis and statistics, so there may be improvements there too. 

Heres hoping for also some added big new features also to be announced. 

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6 minutes ago, Powermonger said:

Currently we have seen no screenshots of training, regen faces, tactical settings, player roles and duties, scouting screens, team talks etc which I think have been worked on if there omission from the teaser is anything to go by.

We have also seen limited screens from ME analysis and statistics, so there may be improvements there too. 

Heres hoping for also some added big new features also to be announced. 

Yeah, thats what i'm hoping. Ideally the lack of information is being withheld until late in the release campaign in an attempt to ramp up the sales in the days leading up to beta release with the goal attracting as many new players to the game as possible, mainly due to the fact that a lot of loyal FM players will pre-order the game whatever happens and that loyalty bonus is perhaps a way of making sure that happens.

To be honest as long as my full backs aren't consistently getting 20-25 assists a year i'll be fine...

Edited by Lordphylogeny

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1 hour ago, Lordphylogeny said:

Yeah, thats what i'm hoping. Ideally the lack of information is being withheld until late in the release campaign in an attempt to ramp up the sales in the days leading up to beta release with the goal attracting as many new players to the game as possible, mainly due to the fact that a lot of loyal FM players will pre-order the game whatever happens and that loyalty bonus is perhaps a way of making sure that happens.

To be honest as long as my full backs aren't consistently getting 20-25 assists a year i'll be fine...

Here's to hoping my assumptions are right and we get some concrete information soon :)

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One problem I've seen in the past 2 versions is the catch up mode of the opposition.  When my players break free to score a goal somehow the opposition catches up dam fast and not only that they surpass you when you had the lead well over 30 40 meters.  It was said by the developers it's an issue with the match engine, the same problem has existed since FM15 and i reported it in that version and FM16 and hasn't been dealt with.  I"m not saying you guys don't patch the game but i've been waiting for 2 seasons for that engine problem to vanish.  But NO it still exists.

Because it still exists in 2 versions and possibly in the new version i'm going to wait till the winter patch and if it's not fixed by then, then i wont buy the new version because the problem just cheeses me so badly.  I"m not pointing fingers to anyone directly but i'm just not happy with some areas of the game not being fixed thats all.

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SI are just doing what Apple do with their products, they leave the big announcement of the new features until the product is ready (or almost ready) to hit the shelves.

Hype the product with a big announcement and then cash in on the whole built up excitement/instant gratification thing where people see the new features/want it straight away/impulse buy rather than give them time to mull over and complain about the new features.

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10 minutes ago, fmfan74 said:

One problem I've seen in the past 2 versions is the catch up mode of the opposition.  When my players break free to score a goal somehow the opposition catches up dam fast and not only that they surpass you when you had the lead well over 30 40 meters.  It was said by the developers it's an issue with the match engine, the same problem has existed since FM15 and i reported it in that version and FM16 and hasn't been dealt with.  I"m not saying you guys don't patch the game but i've been waiting for 2 seasons for that engine problem to vanish.  But NO it still exists.

Because it still exists in 2 versions and possibly in the new version i'm going to wait till the winter patch and if it's not fixed by then, then i wont buy the new version because the problem just cheeses me so badly.  I"m not pointing fingers to anyone directly but i'm just not happy with some areas of the game not being fixed thats all.

What you're not seeing is that the issues do get fixed, but as the ME is improved and worked on, they can crop up again. What causes those slow downs need to then be identified and fixed again. It's not always the same cause either, so they may find and eradicate 9 out of 10 causes, but 1 remains. I think you get the idea.

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6 hours ago, Powermonger said:

Here's to hoping my assumptions are right and we get some concrete information soon :)

They've repeatedly said the reveal is mid October, so pretty soon. 

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1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

They've repeatedly said the reveal is mid October, so pretty soon. 

Yep so by pretty soon I was hoping for next week :D

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1 hour ago, HUNT3R said:

What you're not seeing is that the issues do get fixed, but as the ME is improved and worked on, they can crop up again. What causes those slow downs need to then be identified and fixed again. It's not always the same cause either, so they may find and eradicate 9 out of 10 causes, but 1 remains. I think you get the idea.

There also no such thing as a catch up mode that only affects the player and not the opposition 

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50 minutes ago, Powermonger said:

Yep so by pretty soon I was hoping for next week :D

As someone who has already pre-ordered the game, I just wait the Beta instead of feature announcements. I like exploring them myself & looking around for further details. So hopefully, Beta will be released as soon as it is ready. Actually it is a mutual gain, SI will also benefit from that as we are going to report possible bugs (as always) in order to see them fixed in the full release. Between, I am hopeful since this year it is the first time that SI announced Beta will be released at least two weeks prior to release instead of "around".

Edited by talhak

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35 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

There also no such thing as a catch up mode that only affects the player and not the opposition 

What i meant by catch up mode is the engine.  Collision detection is what one of your tech guys was talking about when i raised the issue.  I also sent in several saves that clearly identified where the problem was.

Like you said nothing is 100% but given that the same problem keeps poping up unexpectedly is an issue to be dealt with given it's continuous surprise.  I can understand people not wanting to make big code changes where it could have a huge impact on the engine during the season and waiting for the new season  to make things smoother.  

Also i'm in support of your tech staff getting better.  Hopefully the company can listen to it's fan base by investing in more staff to counter combat problems in game and get fixes done.  Pre FM16 i and many other spent countless hours hammering away and uploading problems for correction.  Not all of them were handled with which is understandable but the very most important ones to the player base were not.  I raised the same issue twice in a row 2 years straight on the first half of the season and no hope arrived.  Each season i'm seeing a trend of people investing in time and effort correcting the first half life span of each season fixing the game, then the winter break patch comes out which gives you half a season enjoyment.  Rinse repeat a trend that has to change and hopefully the upper house is reading this.

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1 hour ago, fmfan74 said:

What i meant by catch up mode is the engine.  Collision detection is what one of your tech guys was talking about when i raised the issue.  I also sent in several saves that clearly identified where the problem was.

Like you said nothing is 100% but given that the same problem keeps poping up unexpectedly is an issue to be dealt with given it's continuous surprise.  I can understand people not wanting to make big code changes where it could have a huge impact on the engine during the season and waiting for the new season  to make things smoother.  

Also i'm in support of your tech staff getting better.  Hopefully the company can listen to it's fan base by investing in more staff to counter combat problems in game and get fixes done.  Pre FM16 i and many other spent countless hours hammering away and uploading problems for correction.  Not all of them were handled with which is understandable but the very most important ones to the player base were not.  I raised the same issue twice in a row 2 years straight on the first half of the season and no hope arrived.  Each season i'm seeing a trend of people investing in time and effort correcting the first half life span of each season fixing the game, then the winter break patch comes out which gives you half a season enjoyment.  Rinse repeat a trend that has to change and hopefully the upper house is reading this.

Collision detection is one of the most complex parts of the engine, if not the most complex part. It's going be developed over multiple iterations 

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