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4-2-3-1 help needed :(


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Hey guys, I don't normally have tactical issues, and I usually prefer to try and figure it out for myself, but I seem to have brain freeze. Perhaps I just am thinking too much about it but meh. I am hoping someone could give me their opinion on my tactic below.

 

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I am using the OI's someone posted in the emulating conte thread as I have used to to good effect with other tactics.

Screenshot_45.pngimage free hosting

PI's:-

GK- Distribute to flanks, Roll it out, Distribute quickly

FBL- Shoot less often

2 CMs - Shoot less often

Raumdeuter - Shoot less often

AMC- Shoot less often, Close down more, get further forward, Roam from position, move into channels

IF- Shoot less often, sit narrower

What I am finding is it defends quite well, but a lot of the time the defenders never pu,t a foot in, I'm not sure if that's the match engine or what. Whichever it is, it's annoying to watch. Also when a cross is whipped in, even though there's plenty of players in the box to defend it, they literally just look at the ball and let it go past them.

I have noticed the BBM and AM tend to occupy the same space in attack, pretty sure if I just put the AM to an attack duty that will sort that, but then I don't want all 4 attackers on attack. If I put the CF on a support role, even if I change it frmo a CF to something else, he will also find the BBM in his way. I like the CM partnership, and it's working well, so I don't really want to change that. So it's the top 4 positions. Mata in the RDM role his having great joy so changing him could be detrimental.

Also I find players not passing to the obvious player in space and instead turning round and going back to the defenders or the keeper. I know I have work ball into the box on, but even when it's turned off they do it, even though players are nearby and in bags of space. I seem to spend every game shouting at my laptop for players to pass it haha.

Hopefully someone has some suggestions, because it feel slike I am just staring into a void when I look through the tactic now.

I can upload the tactic if someone wants a closer look at it.

 

 

 

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Are your AM and BBM getting in each others way? Watch the game on full and see if that's the case. It could possibly be the instructions you have on the player. Trying removing them and add them back in one at a time to see what difference it makes.

As for the passing, it's possibly a result of your lower tempo, but would need to see the tactic in action to know for sure.

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5 minutes ago, jeid2000 said:

Are your AM and BBM getting in each others way? Watch the game on full and see if that's the case. It could possibly be the instructions you have on the player. Trying removing them and add them back in one at a time to see what difference it makes.

As for the passing, it's possibly a result of your lower tempo, but would need to see the tactic in action to know for sure.

Yeah, they are occupying the same space a lot, I have tried taking the roaming and into channels pi off seperately and together and it makes no difference. I have pogba as the bbm and he is perfect for the role and plays exactly how I want him to, so I don't want to change him so it's the AM that needs sorting. On support he drops into pogba space, when he's getting forward. But if I change him to attack, the whole attack seems out of sync.

I started off with Higher tempo and have gradually lowered it over the games and the same happend no matter what tempo it's at.

ANother thing I am noticing a lot of, is we create a shed load of chances and a lot of the time the football is beautiful, but it seems my players seem to have hit and hope once they get into the box and just tw*t it high and wide, sometimes without taking a touch, even though I have work ball into the box, shoot less often and lower tempo on. The majority of the games we get over 20 shots on target, with less than half on target and the majority of them from between the 6 yard box and the edge of the area, and a lot of the time the player shooting has, plenty of time and space to shoot. It's frustrating haha

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This game was totally out of the norm, I had to counter Leicester's style and quick attacks. I noticed they get a lot of assists form the wings, so I widened the width to balanced and moved the defensive line to much deeper.

Screenshot_46.pngadult image hosting

As you can see, they had a lot of shots, but most of them were from long range and way off target. We were very restricted with our attempts, but they were better efforts than previous games. I changed nothing else as Leicester are way over powered on FM in my opinion, so didn't want to risk getting caught out anywhere. The BBM and AM still got in each other's way a lot, but they had more defensive work to do, so it was harder to read them and what could be done to sort them out

These kind of results, although long and hard to watch at times,, are some of the most satisfying to me.

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4 hours ago, Powello said:

...

What I am finding is it defends quite well, but a lot of the time the defenders never pu,t a foot in, I'm not sure if that's the match engine or what. Whichever it is, it's annoying to watch. Also when a cross is whipped in, even though there's plenty of players in the box to defend it, they literally just look at the ball and let it go past them.

I have noticed the BBM and AM tend to occupy the same space in attack, pretty sure if I just put the AM to an attack duty that will sort that, but then I don't want all 4 attackers on attack. If I put the CF on a support role, even if I change it frmo a CF to something else, he will also find the BBM in his way. I like the CM partnership, and it's working well, so I don't really want to change that. So it's the top 4 positions. Mata in the RDM role his having great joy so changing him could be detrimental.

Also I find players not passing to the obvious player in space and instead turning round and going back to the defenders or the keeper. I know I have work ball into the box on, but even when it's turned off they do it, even though players are nearby and in bags of space. I seem to spend every game shouting at my laptop for players to pass it haha.

...

There's a lot of information about 4231, its probably the #1 formation for requested help so your not alone.

The first thing you mention about crossing is probably just a bad graphical representation, I just take it as being a player not concentrating/positioning/anticipation/jumping/etc well enough.

I think you will always suffer conjestion in the central attacking areas with a ST, AML, AMR, AMC and a MC all looking to play in that area or to run into it.

I would consider:

  1. Use a winger to stretch things laterally and give the other players more space in the middle. I usually have a more conservative FB behind him and the most defensive MC on the other side covering my more attacking FB/WB.
  2. Use two defensive duty MC to hold the middle, allowing both FB/WB to get forward (usually 2 of FB-A, WB-S, WB-A).  As they stay deeper it gives more space for the AML, AMC and AMR, especially if playing Very Fluid so the front 4 are brought closer to the midfielder even if 3 are attack duty.   A combo like CM-D + DLP-D has worked well for me.  Doing this gives space for the AMC, especially if he is an AP, which is my preference for Mata (having Depay/Martial as RMD on left and a IF-S/A on the right)
  3. Your attacking roles will make your attacking positioning narrow,  I don't think telling the team to play narrower will help.  Let them start wider, pull defenders wide then cut inside into the space.  Width doesn't affect your defensive positioning, only your attacking and transitions.

From what you've said I think #2 and #3 will fit what you want the best.

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The first thing you mention about crossing is probably just a bad graphical representation, I just take it as being a player not concentrating/positioning/anticipation/jumping/etc well enough.

I just want to reinforce this.  I find the match engine basically attempts to visualize whatever is happening under the hood which can sometimes lead to bizarre(ly hilarious) things happening as we see them.  Like "AUGH Goalie you just *stood* there!?" but yeah it's because he made a poor decision and as a result didn't properly close out on a ball or whatever.  Sometimes it can look super weird but that's just because it's a (decent IMO) abstraction of the simulation engine going on.

Thanks for your considerations though. I've been experimenting with a 4-2-3-1 as well (Usually use 4-4-2) with a LLM team now that I'm in League One.  I didn't really realize the point about width only impacting offense either!  Will have to play around a bit more now :)

Cheers

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1 hour ago, summatsupeer said:

There's a lot of information about 4231, its probably the #1 formation for requested help so your not alone.

The first thing you mention about crossing is probably just a bad graphical representation, I just take it as being a player not concentrating/positioning/anticipation/jumping/etc well enough.

I think you will always suffer conjestion in the central attacking areas with a ST, AML, AMR, AMC and a MC all looking to play in that area or to run into it.

I would consider:

  1. Use a winger to stretch things laterally and give the other players more space in the middle. I usually have a more conservative FB behind him and the most defensive MC on the other side covering my more attacking FB/WB.
  2. Use two defensive duty MC to hold the middle, allowing both FB/WB to get forward (usually 2 of FB-A, WB-S, WB-A).  As they stay deeper it gives more space for the AML, AMC and AMR, especially if playing Very Fluid so the front 4 are brought closer to the midfielder even if 3 are attack duty.   A combo like CM-D + DLP-D has worked well for me.  Doing this gives space for the AMC, especially if he is an AP, which is my preference for Mata (having Depay/Martial as RMD on left and a IF-S/A on the right)
  3. Your attacking roles will make your attacking positioning narrow,  I don't think telling the team to play narrower will help.  Let them start wider, pull defenders wide then cut inside into the space.  Width doesn't affect your defensive positioning, only your attacking and transitions.

From what you've said I think #2 and #3 will fit what you want the best.

I would agree with the bad graphical representation if it was just one player, but it's the whole defence. Balls that are smashed across the box, they can't handle. I have players with good stats in the ones you mention. They are getting better at it now though, seems experience of it every game is improving their ability to handle it haha.

Again with them BBM/AM invading each others space problem, they seem to be getting better at avoiding each others space now. I did take off roaming from the AM, even though I have done this before and it has failed, it seems to have helped a lot now. It's weird, I can't explain why.

Using a winger wouldn't fit my players, I have inside forwards, no wingers. I like the wide play from the IF and the RDM they are creating pretty much all of our goals.

Unfortunatly, again in the middle I have pogba and schneiderlin, they are perfect for the cm-d/bbm-s combo. Restricting pogba to being defensive would stop his attacking threat which he is great at and I have too many number 10 as it is haha.

I actually thought, like you, that the IF and RMD would push our play too narrow, but it actually doesn't, it stretches the play. They do come inside a lot but quite late, just as the FBs overlap. It's actually great to watch when in full flow. I don't agree about the width setting, whenever I change that, it only affects my defence, my team attack wide anyway , no matter what it is set at. That is also because I have exploit the wings on. The way I see it, when defending, the width controls how the team sets up defensively, I haven't seen it affect the attacking side of the team.

After going back over what I have said in response, I think I have come across as just mr disagreable. Sorry for that, not my intention. I have listened to your advice and I am going to have a fiddle around with them and see how it changes the team. I like a discussion, so it's just my opinions of what I have seen. I want to get this tactic as good as it can be, so I am thankful for your opinions.

40 minutes ago, alanschu14 said:

I just want to reinforce this.  I find the match engine basically attempts to visualize whatever is happening under the hood which can sometimes lead to bizarre(ly hilarious) things happening as we see them.  Like "AUGH Goalie you just *stood* there!?" but yeah it's because he made a poor decision and as a result didn't properly close out on a ball or whatever.  Sometimes it can look super weird but that's just because it's a (decent IMO) abstraction of the simulation engine going on.

Thanks for your considerations though. I've been experimenting with a 4-2-3-1 as well (Usually use 4-4-2) with a LLM team now that I'm in League One.  I didn't really realize the point about width only impacting offense either!  Will have to play around a bit more now :)

Cheers

I agree, there are a lot of things you see on screen that make you scream. I think the match engine needs a lot of work. It's getting very good, but there are still loads left to sort out. I look forward to the match engine above all else each year and it has improved so much since fm14.

This is how I am getting on so far. The first few games were bad overall but the tactic hadn't gelled yet. Apart from the moscow game, which was just a freak game, it's being going quite well. I am making a few tweaks in games to either attack more or defend, as you should do, but generally, the base tactic is starting to look really good. Just needs something more and it will be rather good.

I think I need to take off the OI's and see how they are affecting it aswell

Screenshot_47.png

 

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14 hours ago, Powello said:

I would agree with the bad graphical representation if it was just one player, but it's the whole defence. Balls that are smashed across the box, they can't handle. I have players with good stats in the ones you mention. They are getting better at it now though, seems experience of it every game is improving their ability to handle it haha.

Again with them BBM/AM invading each others space problem, they seem to be getting better at avoiding each others space now. I did take off roaming from the AM, even though I have done this before and it has failed, it seems to have helped a lot now. It's weird, I can't explain why.

Using a winger wouldn't fit my players, I have inside forwards, no wingers. I like the wide play from the IF and the RDM they are creating pretty much all of our goals.

Unfortunatly, again in the middle I have pogba and schneiderlin, they are perfect for the cm-d/bbm-s combo. Restricting pogba to being defensive would stop his attacking threat which he is great at and I have too many number 10 as it is haha.

I actually thought, like you, that the IF and RMD would push our play too narrow, but it actually doesn't, it stretches the play. They do come inside a lot but quite late, just as the FBs overlap. It's actually great to watch when in full flow. I don't agree about the width setting, whenever I change that, it only affects my defence, my team attack wide anyway , no matter what it is set at. That is also because I have exploit the wings on. The way I see it, when defending, the width controls how the team sets up defensively, I haven't seen it affect the attacking side of the team.

After going back over what I have said in response, I think I have come across as just mr disagreable. Sorry for that, not my intention. I have listened to your advice and I am going to have a fiddle around with them and see how it changes the team. I like a discussion, so it's just my opinions of what I have seen. I want to get this tactic as good as it can be, so I am thankful for your opinions.

 

I think fluidity affects the mental aspect of the game (well it would be silly for a player to have worse first touch / pace because he's not use to the tactic) so could explain how things were poor but have improved.

Ahh you have the too many great players problem :lol: 

Width can be very subtle though with the attacking players naturally narrowing the closer you get to the goal, it might just be a few metres when your around the box. (Edit: I am almost certain width only affects your team in possession, but I can't find anything to back this up so i'm doubting it until someone in a position to definitively know agrees/corrects me.)

It's fine, I understand, its why I usually suggest multiple things.   You can see how things are whilst i'm making assumptions, however experienced they are there's too many combinations and players to know how it will play out.  Especially when using Very Fluid so the players will break from the set instructions more often.

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I use a 4-2-3-1 formation ass well.

This one works for me:


                                                                                                                                                           STC
                                                                                                                                                Poacher - Attack

                                                                     AML                                                                              AMC                                                                                   AMR
                                                            Winger - Support                                             Attacking midfielder - Attack                                                 Winger - Support

                                                                                                                             MCL                                                              MCR
                                                                                                         Advanced playmaker - Attack                  Box to Box Midfielder - Support

                                                                        DL                                                 DCL                                                               DCR                                              DL
                                                             Full Back - Attack           Ball playing Defender  - Defend               Ball playing Defender  - Defend        Full Back - Attack

GK
Goalkeeper- Defend

 

    Martial
                                                                                        Poacher - Attack                                                                                 

                                                           Oxlade-Chamberlain                                                     Odegaard                                                                        Bellerin
                                                            Winger - Support                                             Attacking midfielder - Attack                                                 Winger - Support

                                                                                                                             Sàul                                                          Renato Sanchez
                                                                                                         Advanced playmaker - Attack                  Box to Box Midfielder - Support

                                                                     Jorge                                         Romagnoli                                                       Rugani                                Mario Fernandes
                                                             Full Back - Attack           Ball playing Defender  - Defend               Ball playing Defender  - Defend        Full Back - Attack

Donnarumma
Goalkeeper- Defend

 

Tactic Mentality: 4-2-3-1 Wide

Width: Fairly Wide

Chasing down: Sometimes

Prevent short GK distribution

Passing directness: Retian Possession & Mixed

Creative freedom: Be more expressive

Freedom of movement: Roam from positions

 

Comments:

I've got quite good experiences with this tactic.
My team scores a lot of goals and i rarely lose a game.
My opponents don't score a lot, but i got a clean sheet in 40-50% of the games i play.
I lose maybe 1 game out of 15, 2 to 3 draws and 12 to 13 wins.
Used this one several times.
Besides a good tactic, you need to fill it in with the right players.

If you prefer less goals against, you could try a 4-3-2-1.
You also get a lot of possession, play great football, but will score less goalsand need a superb striker like Suarez.

First of all, you need a good goalkeeper.
Donnarumma is a young talent, you could also replace him by a keeper like Rulli.
Will work as well.

I've chosen for a solid defense, with 2 backs that support my attackers.
The backs need to be quick, be able to pass a man, anticipate, pass and defend well.
Unlike for example "Gaya", they are quite ok in heading. Because of this, you will get less goals against, then when you play with Gaya.
Especially in the Premier League or Champions Leaugue, you will see the difference.
Both backs will often get the line or stand alone to receive a ball from my attackers, when there are no better options.
They don't score a lot, but they are very important for assists and a nice, patient gameplay, but will also speed up if necessairy.
If you play with Mario Fernandes and Jorge, they are always candidates for the team of the year of the league and even of Europe.
There is still a risk that you got nailed on a counter.
That's why you need good central defenders.

My central defenders are ball playing defenders.
On the left, I've got Romagnali. He's a great defender and gives good passes to the midfield.
Rugani is also strong with the head and makes a good pair.
They're are both strong on holding up counters.
Together they score about 5-10 goals a season.

The midfield consists of one creative player with a good pass and shot, but has also defensive abilities.
I use Sàul for this one. He often creates chances and breaks down an attack, even in a high possesed area.
Scores about 5-8 goals a season.
On the right i have a box to box player with a good shot.
Renato Sanchez is perfect for this role.
Scores about 8-10 goals a season.
Both players are also important with their head-game.
When my defenders head a ball to the midfield, they are able to receive it well.
The same for goalkicks.

The wings are fast players, with a good dribble.
On the right i prefer a winger who goes straight forward to pass the ball for the goal.
I use Bellerin on the right. Great in offence and defence.
He can pass a man with his speed and is a candidate for the golden ball on this position.
Scores 10 to 20goals a season and 15-25 assists.
On the left I've got a player who has a good hard shot and is not too selfish.
He swings in to the right, to pass the ball or to try a shot on target.
If there are no good options, he will return the ball to the left back.
For this position I use Oxlade-Chamberlain.
He's allround and strong enough to help with some defensive parts.
Scores about 13 to 22 goals a season and about 10 assists.

The centre attacking midfielder needs to be someone with a great pass, vision and technique.
He can break the defence open with 1 great ball.
My favourite for this one  is Odegaard.
Scores about 8-18 goals a season and about 20-30 assists.

The striker has to be a quite complete striker.
Martial suits in perfectly.
Scores about 40-60 goals a season when used correctly.

The speeches at half time during the game are also very important and affect the result.
If your player aren't doing well, bring in the right substitutes on time.
Concentration and persistance of players could also affect a result.

Some other great players:
DR: Borja San Emeterio (allround)
DCLR: Tin Jedvaj (can play ass well on DR, CB, DL)
DCL: Laporte (However i find Romagnoli better on defence)
DL: Alaba (golden ball candidate, but holds the ball too long in my opinion, good with Mario Fernandes)
DCR: Boateng
MCL: Ruben Neves (or MCR)
MCR: Dele Alli, Garmash, Tielemans (or MCL)
AMC: Lincoln
AMR: Gonçalo Guedes
STC: Dybala

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Interesting tactic. Looks very attacking though. What mentality and shape do you use? Also what about PI's and OI's?

I take it you don't use it against quick attacking teams like madrid? Because it looks very open to counters

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6 minutes ago, SirSpecialness said:

You have a lot of TIs effecting passing. What type of passing game are you looking to create?

Basically, what I am seeing. Short, quick passing until space opens up to explot. I don't like loads of sideways and backwards passes, I want forward passes to unlock teams, not just **** about with it. I know work ball into the box goes against that to an extent, but with the intelligence of the players it's working alright. But as always any improvement to it is welcome. We aren't scoring as much as I hoped we would be so the passing does need a tweak or two. Annoying thing is, one game will will smash a team by 5 or 6 goals then for the next 2 or 3 barely score one.

My main issue now after tweaking and watching more, is set pieces. If it wasn't for set pieces we would hardly ever concede. I have tried multiple different routines and we still concede the majority from them. Also we hardly ever score from them unless we get a pen.

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All I can offer is what I've read from before but...

 

The flaws (or weaknesses) I see with the tactic is almost everything goes central, not too much goes out wide. You're taking quite the risk with the BBM, who should probably be a more conservative role, as his roaming is liable to leave you open in midfield, and thus vulnerable to a ball over the top, or perhaps a switch of play on the wings.

The other thing is all the team instructions. What are they there for? Control is wide, higher tempo football, but you're reining it back in with lower tempo, telling them to play narrower (and congesting the middle even more), while almost presenting a contradiction in telling them to play the ball out wide to the flanks (exploit flanks)? And on top of that, you're not only saying to go out wide and exploit the flanks, you're telling them to cut down on the crossing (Work ball into the box) and pass the ball around, often into the middle? Then you're asking them to play the ball into space, while having a top heavy formation that is likely to be compressing whatever space is available anyway, because the AI will likely have to sit deep or get pinned back by your aggressive frontline, resulting in little to no space for the ball to be passed behind.

 

Essentially, I think you need to maybe, scale back the team instructions and ask why you're putting them on? Look at the mentality, the shape and the roles and ask what you want from each of it. 

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