Defending in This Game is Shocking

[isignedupfornorealreason]

5 minutes ago, Barside said:

The following goal has a couple of my pet peeves on display, in the ME calculation (match ratings, commentary & Prozone analysis) there were no mistake made by the team that conceded the goal.

 

If I might ask. Do elaborate? 

[Guest]

I want to see if anyone can pick up on the key defensive error, fancy a stab at finding your inner Alan Hanson?

[isignedupfornorealreason]

4 minutes ago, Barside said:

I want to see if anyone can pick up on the key defensive error, fancy a stab at finding your inner Alan Hanson?

 

Ok I'll give it a go... 

 

Is it the bloke (is he the winger?) who ends up behind him, who basically tracks him to the box and then says 'go on chap, put it in the net'? Or is it those two lumps in midfield who go chasing for the ball as its played out wide before looking at each other and deciding to return to their proper positions? Or is it the left side centreback basically just ball-watching? >_>

[Danchinaski]

1 hour ago, Barside said:

I also hope FM17 is tactically tougher 

This is probably the first time I hope FM isn't actually tougher tactically this time round. When FM16 was initially released I appreciated it's higher level of challenge and the way it punished complacency. Since then I've been using tactics to adapt to the ME, rather than the opposition. I then got to the point where I was tweaking tactics not to win games, but to prevent my team doing the horrible things which were causing me so much frustration. The first time an adult swore at me in an aggressive, threatening way was when I played at under-11 level and was a tad selfish with the ball. I shot from a tight angle one time too many and he took me to one side and humiliated me in front of my team-mates to the point where I never shot at goal from a wide position ever again. In FM, all I can do is endlessly faff around with PIs in the hope that someone might once square a ball rather than shoot, when in reality any player who did this would be fined. Similarly, I've tried to create a tactical set-up which limits opportunities for a striker to get one-on-one. My tactics on FM16 are less about football, and feel increasingly like my decisions are made on experience of the ME and its frustrating quirks rather than my experience of football.

The ME is ever-evolving, and to be honest if my problems with FM16 were purely ME-related I wouldn't be drifting away from the game quite so quickly as I have been (I think having to buy the RTE for the first time in order to play LLM was actually the final straw), but until the ME makes a significant evolutionary step and players in particular roles behave in the way you would expect them to do IRL, it shouldn't get more difficult tactically in my opinion. I honestly think that without the oft-discussed ME quirks the game would still be difficult enough, but satisfyingly so, rather than the deeply frustrating exercise it can be at present.

God, I'm a moany, hyper-critical so and so just lately. I should probably also add that SI have provided me with a great deal of enjoyment over the years, and I've definitely done OK out of the whole FM thing. So, er, cheers for that.

[JustinJJJ]

21 minutes ago, Barside said:

The following goal has a couple of my pet peeves on display, in the ME calculation (match ratings, commentary & Prozone analysis) there were no mistake made by the team that conceded the goal.

I see that kind of thing way too much as well. 

 

[Guest]

11 minutes ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

 

Ok I'll give it a go... 

 

Is it the bloke (is he the winger?) who ends up behind him, who basically tracks him to the box and then says 'go on chap, put it in the net'? Or is it those two lumps in midfield who go chasing for the ball as its played out wide before looking at each other and deciding to return to their proper positions? Or is it the left side centreback basically just ball-watching? >_>

As this thread exists due to the belief that defending is shocking I decided to upload that clip to see if anyone making those claims appreciates the basics of defending & can spot the common behaviour in defending crosses, you've not picked up on it & that should give enough of a clue as to what I believe is the key issue that the ME team need to addressed if the game is to evolve from its current state.

 

Justin, do you see what the issue is though? Saying defending is shocking is fine but understanding what is happening in that clip might actually help you with defending against such a goal.

[JustinJJJ]

From my point of view there are nowhere near enough attempts to block a cross, I am now thinking about how many times I've really saw a full-back try and stop a player from crossing or try and block it and honestly it's pretty rare, I played FM 2015 for a while yesterday and honestly the number of crosses that ended up in the box was far less.

For me the defenders just appear to generally not be bothered about letting crosses go in, in FM 2015 I noticed players were noticeably tighter on the wingers and you saw far less sweeping balls across the box that someone is just able to get on the end of like there, lot more players cutting it out by standing in front of the striker, heading it clear or clearing it, whereas in 2016 you often see balls going past a defender and onto a striker, when you'd expect a defender to throw themselves in front of it.

I've also felt goalkeepers could come for more crosses as well. 

[isignedupfornorealreason]

8 minutes ago, Barside said:

As this thread exists due to the belief that defending is shocking I decided to upload that clip to see if anyone making those claims appreciates the basics of defending & can spot the common behaviour in defending crosses, you've not picked up on it & that should give enough of a clue as to what I believe is the key issue that the ME team need to addressed if the game is to evolve from its current state.

 

Justin, do you see what the issue is though? Saying defending is shocking is fine but understanding what is happening in that clip might actually help you with defending against such a goal.

Oh well, I tried! >_>

 

[herne79]

@ the OP (JustinJJJ).

You started a thread in the Tactics forum looking for help found here.  10 days ago you posted your tactic and received advice about how you may be able to improve things but you have made no further tactical updates since.  For example, your 4231 with all 4 defenders given a defend duty whilst both AML/R players given an attack duty means it's no wonder you have issues with crosses.

If you want help you'll find it much more useful if you post tactical updates there, rather than just your transfer dealings - or posting graphics in this thread whilst telling us that your players play differently against Barcelona and Bournemouth...

Perhaps you are indeed falling foul of ME issues, but your last posted tactic is fundamentally flawed to the extent that any ME issues you are seeing are self inflicted and simply exaggerating ME issues rather than mitigating them.

[Guest]

Even if the ME offered a perfect representation of real life football the tactic in the thread Herne has just linked would have more gaps than a hillbilly's dental x-rays.

[JustinJJJ]

Actually that tactic was not my original tactic, that tactic was used to stop some other issues, I only used it for a very short while.  I adjusted that tactic based on feedback given and also resolved the particular issues that were going on there. 

Now I'm playing an adopted version of that with all the issues apart from the issue with my defenders appearing to behave differently against defensive teams than against attacking teams.

I finished 6th in the Premier League the following season and the third season is a little more difficult, since I'm coming up with issues with teams that play contain which seems to make my defenders totally ignore any instructions I gave to them and stand off. 

Whilst there are far too many goals from crosses still, that is no longer my main issue, my main issue is the fact that teams which have a contain mentality mean that my defenders suddenly ignore everything they knew beforehand..

I played that game against Bournemouth 5 times with exactly the same tactic and lineup and the same pattern followed.

I scored first = we defended very well and they tried to attack us no matter what they threw at us, defenders closed down and tackled and broke up attacks. 

They scored first - they sat back and the defenders backed off anyone running at them, didn't tackle and had no interest in breaking p attacks. 

It makes zero sense if I can play Barca in the Europa League (not sure why they didn't quality for Champions League) with three players running at my back four who are in position, and we can cope with that, but we can't cope with one player who has a wall of four in front of him. 

[JustinJJJ]

This is what I currently play

I've played Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd, Tottenham and Liverpool and never lost to any of them, despite the fact they have far better players, I normally beat them. 

We dominate possession, the players get good match ratings and create many clear cut chances, the defenders are solid and generally there is nothing to complain about. 

[Cougar2010]

48 minutes ago, Barside said:

I want to see if anyone can pick up on the key defensive error, fancy a stab at finding your inner Alan Hanson?

 

I'm seeing a lot of small defensive errors but no worse than seen IRL especially at that level.

Would like to know the attacking teams formation but you've got DCs marking no-one & dropping too deep, A DR showing the winger infield (tactical choice? not particularly dangerous in isolation) & players getting sucked towards the ball to a certain degree.

My take on the end of the cross is the defending DL having a choice whether to stay with his man or switch to the runner (He chooses to stay with his man (doing a poor job) as the ML? is tracking the runner).  The ML tracks the man to the edge of the box then wants to pass him off to the DCL as he sees another opposition player making an unmarked run from midfield (Opposition MC? starts a run then backs off).  Communication between ML? & DCL is lacking/DCL slow to react which leaves the goalscorer in space for the perfect cross.

 

I would also expect either the DCR or GK to deal with the cross but they don't.  The DCR has a man running into the box which might take his attention away but he doesn't seem to see him which leaves one of my pet hates which is keepers not coming to deal with crosses enough but it also seems to be on the decline IRL as well.

[HUNT3R]

That's exactly why you have defensive issues and issues against crosses. You're wide open. No one is protecting the defence. Transitions must be a nightmare.

[herne79]

7 minutes ago, JustinJJJ said:

This is what I currently play

I've played Arsenal, Chelsea, Man Utd, Tottenham and Liverpool and never lost to any of them, despite the fact they have far better players, I normally beat them. 

That's the second tactic you've posted which is fundamentally flawed.  Of course "the defending in this game is shocking" if that is how you are setting up.  You basically have no fullback cover and no midfield shield.

This is exactly why I always say to give specific information about issues rather than just making generalisations.  And before you mention Barcelona vs Bournemouth, you need to understand what your system is doing before trying to fathom out what the opposition are up to.

Does the ME have flaws?  Yes it does, but your system exaggerates them, not mitigates them.

[Guest]

9 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

 A DR showing the winger infield (tactical choice? 

Bingo. 

Look at how wide players are covered, the ME has the defensive player square up to stop a run at the byline & this leaves an easy crossing angle in the inside. 

[JustinJJJ]

herne79 - 

13 minutes ago, herne79 said:

That's the second tactic you've posted which is fundamentally flawed.  Of course "the defending in this game is shocking" if that is how you are setting up.  You basically have no fullback cover and no midfield shield.

This is exactly why I always say to give specific information about issues rather than just making generalisations.  And before you mention Barcelona vs Bournemouth, you need to understand what your system is doing before trying to fathom out what the opposition are up to.

Does the ME have flaws?  Yes it does, but your system exaggerates them, not mitigates them.

In theory what you say is right and in a real game of football I would agree with you.

It doesn't explain however, if the system is so flawed why it works against any team other than teams who play defensively? I have played Arsenal, Man Utd, Tottenham, Liverpool and Man City twice this season. I conceded just 4 goals. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense but that is just the way it is. I played Barcelona in the Euro Cup and they needed penalties to put me out, having only scored from a corner and a free kick over 180 minutes. 

You are claiming that there is no defensive cover and that the full bakcs are exploited but in a game full of attacking players who are the best players in the world, none of them can actually create anything or get through the defense? Surely if we were defensively so poor Messi, Neymar and Suarez should murder us. They don't however and surely they should be doing exactly that and it shoudl be a cricket score? 

So if the system doesn't make sense, which I agree it doesn't, how come teams with far better players than us can't exploit it whilst teams who have crap players can?  Bear in mind my LB and RB have the highest average ratings out of the whole team and are both in the top 10 in Premier League average ratings. It suggests that for some reason the AI is stupid on the big teams and somehow more educated on the lesser teams, despite the fact their managers have vastly better stats? 

As I stated before where I posed the example done up on MS Paint, my defenders behave differently in exactly the same situations that present themselves in the course of a match when they are faced with one player running at them vs three. If there are three players they defend against them, if there is one they back off. This is players running through the middle too. They literally run between two centre backs in the middle of the pitch. 

It still doesn't explain why two centre backs see one player in front of them and they make no effort to tackle him, but if they see two or more they do. I'd have thought two centre backs bursting out of defence to take on three opposition players is far more risky than one of the two center backs trying to take one one striker who had no team-mate close to him?

[HUNT3R]

Just now, JustinJJJ said:

herne79 - 

In theory what you say is right and in a real game of football I would agree with you.

It doesn't explain however, if the system is so flawed why it works against any team other than teams who play defensively? I have played Arsenal, Man Utd, Tottenham, Liverpool and Man City twice this season. I conceded just 4 goals. I know it doesn't make a lot of sense but that is just the way it is. I played Barcelona in the Euro Cup and they needed penalties to put me out, having only scored from a corner and a free kick over 180 minutes. 

You are claiming that there is no defensive cover and that the full bakcs are exploited but in a game full of attacking players who are the best players in the world, none of them can actually create anything or get through the defense? Surely if we were defensively so poor Messi, Neymar and Suarez should murder us. They don't however and surely they should be doing exactly that and it shoudl be a cricket score? 

So if the system doesn't make sense, which I agree it doesn't, how come teams with far better players than us can't exploit it whilst teams who have crap players can?  Bear in mind my LB and RB have the highest average ratings out of the whole team and are both in the top 10 in Premier League average ratings. It suggests that for some reason the AI is stupid on the big teams and somehow more educated on the lesser teams, despite the fact their managers have vastly better stats? 

As I stated before where I posed the example done up on MS Paint, my defenders behave differently in exactly the same situations that present themselves in the course of a match when they are faced with one player running at them vs three. If there are three players they defend against them, if there is one they back off. This is players running through the middle too. They literally run between two centre backs in the middle of the pitch. 

Easy. Teams who play defensively draw you in and rip you apart in the transition.

Top teams should maybe not be beaten by it, but they are leaving space that you're taking advantage of.

 

The games are different. You can't treat them the same and expect them to go exactly the same.

[JustinJJJ]

19 minutes ago, HUNT3R said:

Easy. Teams who play defensively draw you in and rip you apart in the transition.

Top teams should maybe not be beaten by it, but they are leaving space that you're taking advantage of.

The games are different. You can't treat them the same and expect them to go exactly the same.

The only difference I see between the big teams and the top teams is that my defenders appear very reluctant to tackle a sole striker in a 4-5-1, I mean seriously, how can you explain that a solo striker, the only player in the same half of my defence can almost walk through the middle of defence, unchallenged, that counts for about 6/7 out of 10 goals that lower teams score against us.

The strange thing is if there is the players and strikers in exactly the same position with a man close to him, the defenders are very good at closing down both of them, and the attack is snuffed out. But one man and the defenders just stand off, which goes against everything I tell them to do in their instructions.

I find with the lesser teams if I score against them first I roll them over since my defence 9/10 will get a clean sheet and end up winning by a decent margin. However if they score or come for a draw my defenders act like they have been told to stand off, not tackle and just not break-up play and neglect their duties, what's especially infuriating is the striker doesn't even need to do anything special, which results in more goals. 

I don't think any defender in real life would see a striker on his own with no support  half way inside the oppositions half and just jog backwards or back away from him, it's basically telling the striker "Have a shot, I'm not going to stop you." they'd go out there and try and win the ball off him, it's not particuarly dangerous because there's another centre half back there even if he doesn't win the ball. 

Now the way I've been countering it lately is by literally going hell for leather in the first 10 minutes and making sure we get the first goal against the lesser teams and normally it's quite easy to put them to the sword but it's not really a proper answer. 

Whether I play with proper full backs or wing backs I have however noticed that the former makes no difference at all other than reducing our attacking threat. I played some games with both set-ups, the threat is really not coming from those areas much these days, it's more the CB's who just are making illogical decisions when faced with a striker, who has absloutely zero support, yet they pretty much invite him to have a shot and try his luck. 

My issues with crosses are pretty much what Barside has posted. 

[themadsheep2001]

26 minutes ago, Barside said:

Bingo. 

Look at how wide players are covered, the ME has the defensive player square up to stop a run at the byline & this leaves an easy crossing angle in the inside. 

There are 4 errors for me:

1) Winger has dropped deep to no useful position, he is neither blocking the middle nor defending the flank, so is easily taken out (would be interested to know if he is actually playing wide)

2) the FB issue you describe

3) The midfielder who has tracked the runner all the way, suddenly stops.

4) The two CBs have retreated deep, and a) picked up nobody and b) not put themselves in a position to mark

 

1 -  could be an ME issue, dependent on where he is actually playing

2 - is an ME issue

3 - the point at which he stops tracking him makes it an ME issue for me

4 - again feel this is potentially ME issue, since no mistakes are reported.

[herne79]

Please post pkms of matches were this is happening, along with exactly what tactic (TIs as well) you were using, as it sounds to me like you are tinkering and changing tactics during matches as well as having issues with your base tactic.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

2 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

There are 4 errors for me:

1) Winger has dropped deep to no useful position, he is neither blocking the middle nor defending the flank, so is easily taken out (would be interested to know if he is actually playing wide)

2) the FB issue you describe

3) The midfielder who has tracked the runner all the way, suddenly stops.

4) The two CBs have retreated deep, and a) picked up nobody and b) not put themselves in a position to mark

 

1 -  could be an ME issue, dependent on where he is actually playing

2 - is an ME issue

3 - the point at which he stops tracking him makes it an ME issue for me

4 - again feel this is potentially ME issue, since no mistakes are reported.

I said those! >_> Apart from the FB one... 

 

(I'm actually pleasantly surprise I got some of them right. :P) 

[JustinJJJ]

I am doing very little tinkering during matches to be fair, I'm just going on attacking mentality from the offset against the smaller teams and reining it back once we get a goal. 

When I refer to CWB vs FB I refer to playing the same game twice, once with each set-up just for kicks to see if it effected things somewhat.

I have closing down on "More" in team instructions and 99/100 it works if there are a couple of strikers or forwards running at the defence, the CB's do a great job and give them no space at all, but the strange thing is if there is one striker, with nobody around them, there is no effort to close him down.

I played the Bournemouth match three times and on the third time I put closing down on much more, use tighter marking and get stuck in on and yet that one striker was still able to get far too much time on the ball in the centre of the half with a midfielder behind him, and two central defenders in front of him who would neither mark, tackle or close him down in possession and instead keep retreating deeper and deeper, which is very strange because we don't play deep by set-up! 

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, isignedupfornorealreason said:

I said those! >_> Apart from the FB one... 

 

(I'm actually pleasantly surprise I got some of them right. :P) 

Yeah I deliberately sped through the replies so I was skewed by what other people said.

We've spoken about 2, but 1 (if he is a winger) and 4 really annoy me, unless the left CB has a mistake against him, it's a bug imo

[JustinJJJ]

Slightly off topic, but has anyone else seen any weird stuff with penalties and idiotic defensive behavior?

I've just been awarded three in 4 minutes in a game, carbon copies all three, same player too, wasn't booked for any of them, hacked a play down in the corner of the box. 

I find it quite hard to believe that it could happen,.

[Guest]

34 minutes ago, themadsheep2001 said:

There are 4 errors for me:

1) Winger has dropped deep to no useful position, he is neither blocking the middle nor defending the flank, so is easily taken out (would be interested to know if he is actually playing wide)

2) the FB issue you describe

3) The midfielder who has tracked the runner all the way, suddenly stops.

4) The two CBs have retreated deep, and a) picked up nobody and b) not put themselves in a position to mark

 

1 -  could be an ME issue, dependent on where he is actually playing

2 - is an ME issue

3 - the point at which he stops tracking him makes it an ME issue for me

4 - again feel this is potentially ME issue, since no mistakes are reported.

1 is because he's a lazy IF so that's not an issue for me, I'm more disappointed when this type of player continually tracks back as there are times I want them to stay more advanced to provide an outlet & in a perfect world pin back an attacking full back.

2. This is the main one that people miss & why I picked this goal to upload.

3. What I like about what the scorer did is the change of pace as he's moving into posiition, he slows his run then there's a short burst so the way I read it is that he's lulled the player tracking him back into thinking the job is done before short burst intoi space, still a mistake by my player as he let his man get away from him

4. The CB's retreating too far is a common problem but it's lower league so not my biggest gripe, in that clip the more annoying issue is that the first man didn't cut out the cross with what is an easy defensive header playing the ball out for a corner or back to the touchline so it's a bit of a bug in the running back while the failure to put his head on the ball is a mistake that's incorrectly not registered by the ME.

Isignedup (you did nail most of the issues, just missed the biggie) also mentioned the keeper not attempt to claim an ball, that's another issue & in that clip it's doubly annoying to see because he's got plenty of time to judge the flight & it's an unchallenged jump for the ball which is bread & butter for any natural keep because they'll have spent thousands of hours catching that exact type of ball into box during training.

[Cougar2010]

3 isn't an issue with the ML leaving his man IMO.  He is seeing the DCL marking no-one & he sees an unmarked opposition player making a run into the area he is in.

The natural play is to pass the runner off & step across to pick up the other midfield runner.  It looks worse because the 2nd midfield runner stops his run and drops back deeper leaving the ML in no-mans land marking no-one.

[Guest]

It's not an player behaviour issue but it is a mistake that the ME doesn't think is a mistake which is a different type of bug.

[Cougar2010]

1 minute ago, Barside said:

It's not an player behaviour issue but it is a mistake that the ME doesn't think is a mistake which is a different type of bug.

I know what you are saying but I'm not sure I agree with that either.  Where do you draw the line?  Can a team score a goal without a mistake being allocated?

To me that falls on the side of just good play and not a mistake as such.  If you freeze the clip at 5 secs its basically two runners vs the ML & DCL.  In that split second the ML wants the DCL to pick a man and make the decision, he doesn't simply drifting back slightly leaving the ML not sure which runner to go with.  That split second doubt means both runners have the potential to get free and makes the ML look like an arse for not following the goalscorer.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

10 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

3 isn't an issue with the ML leaving his man IMO.  He is seeing the DCL marking no-one & he sees an unmarked opposition player making a run into the area he is in.

The natural play is to pass the runner off & step across to pick up the other midfield runner.  It looks worse because the 2nd midfield runner stops his run and drops back deeper leaving the ML in no-mans land marking no-one.

For me, it's a big one, because the DCL isn't really in the right place for the 'hand over', and the cross is hit just as the midfielder lets him go. It's a poor decision, one that he might have got away with if the play wasn't so far back imo.

[Guest]

Perfect goals that are down to pure skill or genius in attack should be there but as a former defender I want to see mistakes by players at the back as that's also part football & more importantly a lot of the time those mistake should have nothing to do with your tactics. What is important is that when watching the match we & the ME can see or read for the commentary only guys that a mistake has been made, it might only be a minor lapse in concentration or a step in the wrong direction born out of poor anticipation but it's still an individual mistake. 

Edit: Obviously this would be an issue for a lot of people because there is still a desire to understand everything & to think that FM is just about getting the perfect tactic which just is';t the case, a poor tactic will always be a poor tactics but even the most optimal tactic for the players at a managers disposal can still be undone by individual decisions that as a manager you have no control over.

[CityAndColour]

10 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Comments like the above help no-one, its not "literally once a game at least", far from it.

 

Does it happen too often - Probably, yes.

Does it happen once a game - No, I would personally estimate I see it maybe once every 6/7 games which makes it around 6-8 times a season.

I'm not talking about goals scored from it. I would probably only see 5-6 goals from it, but I see the mishit cross being tipped over by a 'keeper at least 40-50 times a season. Which would work to be around once a game as a minimum.

[roykela]

2 hours ago, JustinJJJ said:

2 hours ago, Barside said:

The following goal has a couple of my pet peeves on display, in the ME calculation (match ratings, commentary & Prozone analysis) there were no mistake made by the team that conceded the goal.

 

 

 

The positioning of the goalie is completely off there as well.

At the time of the cross, the goalie is nowhere near where a goalie would be in a situation like that.

Even if wrongly positioned he would at least be somewhere in between the posts.

 

The DR opening up space infield is a big mistake. ME-wise, tactical-wise and/or both.

The goalie, however, is shocking.

 

One thing that bothers me though isn't the kind of crossing where the crosser gets all the time in the world (which happens a bit too much for my liking, regardless of what i try to instruct my players to do). It's those crosses that hit the bar or go straight in.

I see them all the time. Lower league or top league, they happen all the time.

The difference i've noticed in my game is that in lower league they tend to end up as goals more often. Whereas in the top league they end up hitting the bar more often than ending up as goals.

[Guest]

Keepers are a constant cause of frustration for me but they have been ever since SI upgrading the ME to cater for the 3D match view. Being able to code outfield player behaviour could be considered child's plat compared to the challenges of coding the behaviour & decision making of keepers, top of the list being that like every other game FM is coded by amateur footballers. Professional footballers haven't got the the knowledge the understand the keeper position & you only need to see how out of place an outfield player looks when they're called upon to play in goal late in a game to appreciate how difficult it is for a coder to be able to get remotely close to a believable simulation of the position within the confines of a computer game.

[roykela]

I can imagine it's a pain trying to code GKs properly.

It's entirely different from being an outfield player, that's for sure. Like you say, just take a look at the majority of outfield players taking the GK spot when they're needed.

They have no clue what to do. Well, the majority of them that is.

 

We have to find the coders a GK who can help out.

Don't get Taibi though. It wouldn't end well 

[fmfan74]

Position.   It's all about position.  Do you play careful football.  Do you change player roles. Do you assign players to cut the opposition weak foot for wingers.   Do you check the oppositions players strong foot and heading stats.  Have you tried playing contain football with closing down more.  Obviously this will help if your playera position is in front of the opposition and not behind.   Do you also close down  good defenders with good passing.   I am last in the german first division recently winning against the league leaders.  And my strikers Ave around 500k. 

[HUNT3R]

7 hours ago, JustinJJJ said:

The only difference I see between the big teams and the top teams is that my defenders appear very reluctant to tackle a sole striker in a 4-5-1, I mean seriously, how can you explain that a solo striker, the only player in the same half of my defence can almost walk through the middle of defence, unchallenged, that counts for about 6/7 out of 10 goals that lower teams score against us.

The strange thing is if there is the players and strikers in exactly the same position with a man close to him, the defenders are very good at closing down both of them, and the attack is snuffed out. But one man and the defenders just stand off, which goes against everything I tell them to do in their instructions.

I find with the lesser teams if I score against them first I roll them over since my defence 9/10 will get a clean sheet and end up winning by a decent margin. However if they score or come for a draw my defenders act like they have been told to stand off, not tackle and just not break-up play and neglect their duties, what's especially infuriating is the striker doesn't even need to do anything special, which results in more goals. 

I don't think any defender in real life would see a striker on his own with no support  half way inside the oppositions half and just jog backwards or back away from him, it's basically telling the striker "Have a shot, I'm not going to stop you." they'd go out there and try and win the ball off him, it's not particuarly dangerous because there's another centre half back there even if he doesn't win the ball. 

Now the way I've been countering it lately is by literally going hell for leather in the first 10 minutes and making sure we get the first goal against the lesser teams and normally it's quite easy to put them to the sword but it's not really a proper answer. 

Whether I play with proper full backs or wing backs I have however noticed that the former makes no difference at all other than reducing our attacking threat. I played some games with both set-ups, the threat is really not coming from those areas much these days, it's more the CB's who just are making illogical decisions when faced with a striker, who has absloutely zero support, yet they pretty much invite him to have a shot and try his luck. 

My issues with crosses are pretty much what Barside has posted. 

 

6 hours ago, JustinJJJ said:

I am doing very little tinkering during matches to be fair, I'm just going on attacking mentality from the offset against the smaller teams and reining it back once we get a goal. 

When I refer to CWB vs FB I refer to playing the same game twice, once with each set-up just for kicks to see if it effected things somewhat.

I have closing down on "More" in team instructions and 99/100 it works if there are a couple of strikers or forwards running at the defence, the CB's do a great job and give them no space at all, but the strange thing is if there is one striker, with nobody around them, there is no effort to close him down.

I played the Bournemouth match three times and on the third time I put closing down on much more, use tighter marking and get stuck in on and yet that one striker was still able to get far too much time on the ball in the centre of the half with a midfielder behind him, and two central defenders in front of him who would neither mark, tackle or close him down in possession and instead keep retreating deeper and deeper, which is very strange because we don't play deep by set-up! 

The fact that you're also using an Attacking Mentality against these smaller teams is another issue. There's very little control in that midfield, so you're just simply going to give the ball away too easily, giving these smaller teams more counter attacking chances. And there will be huge counter attacking opportunities for them. Yes, there are issues in the ME, and the lack of engagement is a good spot if true, but the biggest issues here are tactical.

 

Take Herne's advice and post the information required in the tactics forum. 

[CityAndColour]

I'd say a lot of that is caused by the fact the two centre halves often don't 'talk' to each other. They tend to run on their own line which means if an attacker gets past one, the other doesn't move in behind him to cover.

[Tony Wright 747]

11 hours ago, Barside said:

Keepers are a constant cause of frustration for me but they have been ever since SI upgrading the ME to cater for the 3D match view. Being able to code outfield player behaviour could be considered child's plat compared to the challenges of coding the behaviour & decision making of keepers, top of the list being that like every other game FM is coded by amateur footballers. Professional footballers haven't got the the knowledge the understand the keeper position & you only need to see how out of place an outfield player looks when they're called upon to play in goal late in a game to appreciate how difficult it is for a coder to be able to get remotely close to a believable simulation of the position within the confines of a computer game.

If that is the case Barside , would it not be a good idea for Miles to get the Watford keepers or goalkeeping coach in to offer some advice

[JustinJJJ]

7 hours ago, HUNT3R said:

 

The fact that you're also using an Attacking Mentality against these smaller teams is another issue. There's very little control in that midfield, so you're just simply going to give the ball away too easily, giving these smaller teams more counter attacking chances. And there will be huge counter attacking opportunities for them. Yes, there are issues in the ME, and the lack of engagement is a good spot if true, but the biggest issues here are tactical.

 

Take Herne's advice and post the information required in the tactics forum. 

The attacking mentality is not the cause, it's actually a good counter to it, the problem is that it happens with defensive teams all of the time even on standard mentality, the reason I use attacking mentality, is that it normally means we will score the first goal by overpowering them, the opposition then have to play more attacking and therefore the situation I describe never occurs.

I only see the problem with lack of engagement by the centre backs against teams that park the bus, play for a draw from the off and don't try and win game and just want to play contain from the moment the game starts. This happens regardless of mentality that I select, they'll play this way for the full 90 minutes unless I score, where they have to actually try and score, which results in my defenders engaging the strikers again. 

As stupid as it sounds, attacking from the off works pretty well against this problem, because once the opposition go a goal behind, my defenders suddenly start engaging them which is very weird. The lack of engagement by my defenders almost seems totally linked to the midnset of the opposition, at times it feels like the AI of my defenders is influenced by the mentality of the opposition that has been set, rather than what actually happens on the field of play. 

Will post tactis when home this evening if I get chance. 

[Cougar2010]

You still don't seem to be thinking about what happens on the pitch, you just seem to be trying things until you randomly find something that works.

Before a match you should be thinking "How are the opposition going to play?" & "How does their expected formation match up to mine? both in attack & defence"

From that you then should be deciding how to approach the match from a tactical perspective, "Which formation should I use?", "Do I want to tweak it in anyway?" "Do I want to play more direct or shorter?" "Should my defence be sitting back or pushing forwards?"

 

5 minutes ago, JustinJJJ said:

The attacking mentality is not the cause, it's actually a good counter to it, the problem is that it happens with defensive teams all of the time even on standard mentality, the reason I use attacking mentality, is that it normally means we will score the first goal by overpowering them, the opposition then have to play more attacking and therefore the situation I describe never occurs.

So thats a tactical choice you aim to smash them early on before they get settle and get the first goal.  Thats fine but you then need a plan B for what happens next.  Have you scored in the first 15-20mins? Have the opposition settled and are now dealing with your attacks? Have they scored?

Pause the match if you have to, think to yourself has the flow of the match changed? have the opposition changed their tactics? do you need to tweak what your team are doing to counter that?

 

5 minutes ago, JustinJJJ said:

I only see the problem with lack of engagement by the centre backs against teams that park the bus, play for a draw from the off and don't try and win game and just want to play contain from the moment the game starts. This happens regardless of mentality that I select, they'll play this way for the full 90 minutes unless I score, where they have to actually try and score, which results in my defenders engaging the strikers again. 

Personally its not an issue I have.

I've played with 3*DC lineups and flat back fours.  I use OIs to close down & tightly mark the opposition lone ST which goes a long way to isolating him.  A lot of balls get cut out but the idea is not to give him easy possession and force him to play the ball backwards which gives your other players time to get back into a defensive shape for the second phase of their attack.

You should be trying to work out why your defence aren't engaging the forward and I suspect the clues are there.  The opposition are playing with a lower mentality leading to safer balls forwards while the ST probably has a support duty meaning he is dropping off the front deeper into midfield to pick up possession.  On top of that some forwards are just simply better making runs off the ball than your defenders are at marking them.

 

5 minutes ago, JustinJJJ said:

As stupid as it sounds, attacking from the off works pretty well against this problem, because once the opposition go a goal behind, my defenders suddenly start engaging them which is very weird. The lack of engagement by my defenders almost seems totally linked to the midnset of the opposition, at times it feels like the AI of my defenders is influenced by the mentality of the opposition that has been set, rather than what actually happens on the field of play. 

Will post tactis when home this evening if I get chance. 

Again what sticks out here it when the opposition play more attacking and push up against your defence you have more success with engaging them but you seem to be struggling when they drop off.

 

[Guest]

There are times where I do wonder how your're seeing some of the things you've mentioned, the way I see defenders deal with an isolated lone striker can often only a passing nod at realistic methods of defending.

[Cougar2010]

That aimed at me or Justin Barside?

[Guest]

It was in response to your last post although 'aimed' makes it sound harsher that it's meant.

[themadsheep2001]

19 hours ago, Barside said:

1 is because he's a lazy IF so that's not an issue for me, I'm more disappointed when this type of player continually tracks back as there are times I want them to stay more advanced to provide an outlet & in a perfect world pin back an attacking full back.

2. This is the main one that people miss & why I picked this goal to upload.

3. What I like about what the scorer did is the change of pace as he's moving into posiition, he slows his run then there's a short burst so the way I read it is that he's lulled the player tracking him back into thinking the job is done before short burst intoi space, still a mistake by my player as he let his man get away from him

4. The CB's retreating too far is a common problem but it's lower league so not my biggest gripe, in that clip the more annoying issue is that the first man didn't cut out the cross with what is an easy defensive header playing the ball out for a corner or back to the touchline so it's a bit of a bug in the running back while the failure to put his head on the ball is a mistake that's incorrectly not registered by the ME.

Isignedup (you did nail most of the issues, just missed the biggie) also mentioned the keeper not attempt to claim an ball, that's another issue & in that clip it's doubly annoying to see because he's got plenty of time to judge the flight & it's an unchallenged jump for the ball which is bread & butter for any natural keep because they'll have spent thousands of hours catching that exact type of ball into box during training.

The issues I have with the CBs is this

1) it's not counted as an error by the LCB, so that in itself is a bug

2) It happens to regularly, even at the top level.

So while I think your point stands as it's low level here, at best it's still a partial flaw.

Disagree about 3 though, that just looks awful, and not in a defensive error way, was it flagged as a mistake?

[Guest]

1 minute ago, themadsheep2001 said:

The issues I have with the CBs is this

1) it's not counted as an error by the LCB, so that in itself is a bug

2) It happens to regularly, even at the top level.

So while I think your point stands as it's low level here, at best it's still a partial flaw.

Disagree about 3 though, that just looks awful, and not in a defensive error way, was it flagged as a mistake?

There were no mistakes during that entire passage of play.

[Cougar2010]

Which parts do you wonder about?

Generally speaking I find lone striker formations one of the easier ones to deal with (Ones where the other players are in the midfield strata or further back, not ones where the opposition have players at AML/AMR).

 

433 with three strikers however I have a lot of problems with

[themadsheep2001]

1 minute ago, Barside said:

There were no mistakes during that entire passage of play.

Interesting, cheers.

That in it self would be several bugs for me in terms of not recognising poor play (if we went with the assumption it was poor play)

[Guest]

The way mistakes are attributes is one area I'd like to feedback on when we all get our mitts on FM17, I had one last week where a player who made a successful pass in defence was considered to have made a mistake when the recipient then passed the ball back to the keeper who failed to control the ball as it rolled by of an OG.

FM is now punishing me for my critical words.   Just lost an even contest 2-0 after with the first being a a tap in after my keeper parries a free kick right in front of him & the defence step up while the attackers charge in for a tap in (no mistake) & then my CB's who are set to mark tightly allow a lone ST who is set to be marked tightly & closed down often to drop off them from a starting position where he had far too much space to begin with. 

I would upload some of the dubious allocation of mistakes but the clips are always less than 10 seconds long so it's too much of a faff to create a highlight package.

[Sunstrikuuu]

I was most interested by the movement of what I think is the right central midfielder, who is the furthest player away from both the ball and any opposition player on either team.  Barside, what position/duty did that midfielder have?

 

Edit: To be clear I'm referring to the highlight on the previous page.