Defending in This Game is Shocking

[JustinJJJ]

Why is the defending from crosses so bad? It appears to matter no matter how you set up your team or however good defenders you have they all just make mistake after mistake, the strange thing is I played FM 2014 and every other FM going back to 2011 and I never saw it so bad as in this version.

It's honestly rare I see someone score a good goal, too often I'm seeing an average player come up a wall of 6 defenders and manage to get pass them all as the defenders are absolutely useless. The strange thing is in some of these games defenders are getting very high ratings despite the fact no matter how hard you tell them to tackle, close down and mark players, they just make no effort to stop the opposition. 

And what is it about teams having players sent off and then hitting screamers and playing much better every time? I was just playing against Newcastle and we were 4-0 up at half time and a player was sent off then they score 4 in 30 minutes, from 30-40 yards out, all of them top strikes from the same guy who has....3 for long shots. 

And the sheer volume of sendings off is crazy. I've seen 11 in my games and it's only January and only 4 of them have been mine. Looking at the stats table, Middlesborough have 9 from 24 games whilst Swansea and Bournemouth have 7 each - Really?

And as for the number of crosses that lead to goals, not just in my own matches but in AI vs AI matches as well, something is seriously wrong there. 

 

[Lambo95]

I've only ever noticed a large number of reds when playing in Italy. 

[Guest]

The attackers definetly seem to have the advantage this year, the defence look clumsy compared. I watch them and it looks like unresponsiveness, or having no presence, I see a loyt of goals from the kick off where pretty much they walk through the team and score, Ive not seen many sendings off though, but Ive had a lot of games where I'm fined for too many yellow, and this is a team the media constantly praise for being the lowest at getting cards.

[JustinJJJ]

The end of last season in my game was a farce and I nearly stopped playing the game altogether.

I started a new season and brought in a whole new back line, with everyone playing in their natural role and all having only 1 o 2 orange pieces missing max and many of them maxed out, all of the players are 3.5 stars at least and my coaches and ass man tell me that they are all very well suited to the Premier League.

In the first 8 games of the season, I've seen 8 red cards (6 for the opposition, 2 for me), 55% of the goals from crosses. I've won 2 games, lost all of the 6 which the opposition had at least one player sent off in, seen some ridiculous goals  (Including when I played my first team in a Carling Cup game and a League 2 side managed to get some guy with 4 for finishing and 6 for pace, manage to go through about 6 of my players and score a hat-trick, all of which who did VERY little to stop him.

Now the confusing thing for me, is I have closing down on max, telling the players to get stuck in and mark tightly, yet I constantly see goals form either crosses or something where layers just allow the opposition to walk through them. The stupid thing is I see some of the most stupid fouls you can ever imagine from my players, but when it actually comes to doing sensible tackles, they don't bother and act like a bunch of wimps who are afraid of the ball, but if there is a man to do a hachet job on nowhere near the ball, or in the penalty area with no chance of scoring they're only to happy to oblige and get a stupid red card or give a penalty away.

Just for kicks I opened up my 2015 game with a lower level team and believe it or not, despite the fact the players were **** in comparison to to the guys I have in FM 2016, they at least do what I tell them to do. I understand tactics etc change every game, but what annoys the hell out of me is that players simply ignore whatever I tell them and appear to have crap for brains. 

If anyone has any recommendations for tactics to try and counter this crap for a mid-tablle Premier League side I'd be really interested to hear of them. 

[Guest]

There's no denying that there are issues with core defensive behaviours however as they are universal issues within the ME there are ways to reduce the impact through your tactical choices & if you're willing to adapt your natural tactical tendencies then help is available in the Tactics, Training & Strategies forum

[Lambo95]

If you've got max closing down, tight marking and get stuck in, your players will obviously make lots of fouls  and unless they're elite level players, this style will lead to them being out of position and is easily exploited by any half decent team. 

 

 

[stevio36]

I have to laugh at the screen when I see some of my defenders mistakes that lead to goals

[JustinJJJ]

I actually thought I was getting somewhere for a few games, they were fairly boring but managed to cut out a few annoying things.

Basically I removed get stuck in, restricted their freedom a little bit and gone with a deeper defensive line in the hope that it would stop people getting so much space, giving away stupid penalties and red cards and being done for crosses.

After a couple of boring games with clean sheets, I faced Man City, Arsenal and Chelsea one after another

Man City - Held them for 70 minutes, then lost 4-0 (3x dwelling on a ball 1x penalties)
Arsenal - 2-0 up until they had a player sent off, lost 3-2 (1x penalty, 1x stupid pass and 1x defender standing still)
 Chelsea 1-0 up at half time, shipped 2 in the second half (1x own goal, 1x defender not even trying to head a cross away)

I just watched Man City play Man Utd in another game, the standard of football was absolutely atrocious it finished 5-4 to Man City, and every goal bar one came directly from a cross and that one was following an awful clearance form one. 

[scott MUFC]

I remove get stuck in, they stand there like cones while opponents pass around them.

I have defence counter, and they still concede goals through stupid stuff.

[Guest]

I think the only way to counter it is to go all out attack, you cant really stop them going in so have a 5-4. To have a 5-4 though you need about 20 shots to there 4 as they are prolific and your team are having their own hit the corner flag competition.

[Steffen84]

What's bothering me the most are deep crosses being so powerful. Time after time the oppostion crosses the ball with pinpoint accuracy from the middle of the pitch, and my defender can't even react. Then I see my players getting to the byline to put a cross in for my striker to just nick it in the goal from 2-3 meters and it goes flying into orbit around the moon.

From what I see and read about this, the game seems kinda broken. 

[Guest]

The only solution I've found is to play a high line and try to force the opposition to knock balls over the top because strikers seem less likely to score when they're one on one with the keeper as opposed to from crosses.

[CityAndColour]

39 minutes ago, tubbycrabs said:

The only solution I've found is to play a high line and try to force the opposition to knock balls over the top because strikers seem less likely to score when they're one on one with the keeper as opposed to from crosses.

Yep, ditto. There is a weird quirk where strikers through on goal stop once they get the ball, allowing chasing defenders to catch up and block the shot.

[Svenc]

Thing is, a lot of one on ones are quite overrated, just think about the term, "one on one", implying that their is a battle between two going on, and every side being able to anticipate, the keeper actually has a chance of narrowing angles and making it harder to score for a start, all he needs to do is to deflect it, whilst the forward has to trap the ball at pace and control whilst getting the shot reasonably on target. In real football those are converted at no more than 1 in 3 or 1 in 4 rates, and the narrower the supply the harder to convert. It's a dramatic situation which is why it ranks so highly by gut feeling but depending on the supply it's hardly the easiest chance you can create. Not arguing FM is totally accurate, but that should be the aim.  Also it's actually always easier against opponents who play high lines actually and push up to find space. Even if that doesn't result in a one on one, it immediately has the entire defense on the back foot (hence users traditionally posting the many 30 shots no goals screenshots, oft failing to break teams down teams sitting ducks without noticing, as we don't have stats showing which shot was off set pieces rather than open play, and CCCs can be anything).

 

 

 

 

These lead to goals directly, despite not showing up as a CCC at all, opening cans of the space City never had on any of their shots. For all the crossing thing, it's still possible to concede consistently less than 1 goal on average, or with top teams, far less than 0.5 on average. The AI must manage it despite its flaws, such as the big guys never registering when they're punished for their aggressively stuff as you'll see it winning leagues with scoring no more than 1.5 goals on average depending on the manager despite having huge squads. It can be very annoying, and in some random matches multiple goals may come off them and if that's broken for you then it is, but over the long term for every cross from deep connecting, there's tons that don't get anywhere at all just not shown in the highlights.

[hoppo1982]

I am always reluctant to agree when people say "defending is broken" or "goal scoring is broken" for fear it is just their set up.

Having made similar complaints in the past only to realize it was down to how id set up and the defenders themselves.

 

However........  i have noticed an issue with crosses on this years version. So much of the goals i scored and conceded where coming from crosses despite changing my set-up (Wingers/Inside forwards vs Diamond formations with no wingers etc)

 

[forameuss]

Yet there's still a massive difference between there being an issue with crosses - which is acknowledged - and defending being broken.  

[DP]

People have a different view of what 'broken' means and it's pretty subjective. 

However, for me, the crossing issue means defending feels as bad as it's ever been. I just haven't seen something so visually and obviously not right in FM16 at the third patch stage. It was a genuine stunned response from me when it was announced it wouldn't be fixed in 16.3 ?

Saying that I do understand the knock ons may have been a legitimate reason. I just hope and pray the new match engine has ironed out the obvious crossing issues - as well as one or two of the other things like keepers now able to be sent off. 

[Guest]

5 hours ago, Analog said:

Defending isn't 'broken' though.  Yes, you are most likely to concede from crosses from the RB/RW, but you can still concede 10 or less goals over the course of a league season, so it's not as bad as it's usually made out to be.  The patches they released did do some good.

Broken would be a harsh label but it's accepted that both individual & team defending is not modelled to the same level as attacking play, that's not something which has been intentional on SI's part but it is a part of the ME that should be a priority.

[MBarbaric]

44 minutes ago, Barside said:

Broken would be a harsh label but it's accepted that both individual & team defending is not modelled to the same level as attacking play, that's not something which has been intentional on SI's part but it is a part of the ME that should be a priority.

the thing is, defending is highly structured and isn't open to interpretation as attacking is where you have free roles, individual initiative and so on. in defensive phase it is exactly known what a player is supposed to do. and when i say player that means each player apart (maybe one or for more lazy teams, two). when coaching defence you don't want to coach one player, you have to coach whole team as a unit. it has quite exact rules and ideas that have to be adhered to if team wants to be somewhat succesfull.

in fm, though, there is no such thing, defending team is often all out of place and i am not talking about counter attacks but set defences.

[Guest]

Improvements to team training & the overall player development model is something I've advocated for a few years, the current system is geared towards individual improvement which inadvertently benefits attacking play while defensive cohesion is only simulated through tactical familiarity & once those bars are max'd out there is no difference in having match prep set to max or min+1 or setting it to attacking movement or defensive positioning.

There are technical lissues within the ME that do need to be solved otherwise any improvements to the defensive side of the game will be limited but coupling that with a training system that requires a manager to balance team & individual development in a better way than is currently offered would imo be the correct direction for SI to take, having to choose whether you want to concentrate training on beating your next opponent or developing your players in the hope of having a better team in 2 or 3 seasons should be a decision that  has a greater impact on match performance & therefore not a as straightforward a decision as is currently the case.

[Svenc]

1 hour ago, Barside said:

Improvements to team training & the overall player development model is something I've advocated for a few years, the current system is geared towards individual improvement which inadvertently benefits attacking play while defensive cohesion is only simulated through tactical familiarity & once those bars are max'd out there is no difference in having match prep set to max or min+1 or setting it to attacking movement or defensive positioning.

Did they change how that worked, because previously match prep was temporarily boosts to player traits.

Pretty good point by MBarbaric, on the defensive end, apart of ME limitations, manager customization (Both AI and ours) has been far more limited to what's going on in possession. I can relate to why this is done, there is also a lot of hard-coding clearly, like in this version where the full backs defend super narrow to help containing central threats (which naturally leaves out more space wide). If this was some kind of more customizable, it would be likely one hell of a balancing job. If you watch patch notes and the various times when PaulC still communicated stuff on public, it is kind of revelead that his manually tweaks to d-line positioning or centre back engagement etc. can have huge knock-ons on player decisions all itself, like an increase in long shots, etc.

On the more recent Fifa Managers the hugely limited Fifa engine taken didn't respond to anything, always direct attacking footaball of the arcadish kind by both sides, but you could draw two kinds of "movement arrows" from default positions though, both with and without the ball. As lots of play was kind of inherently geared towards belting the ball to the central forwards, the Fifa AI simply always picks the guy next to the goal and belts it to him, and thus central areas were the most of the threat pretty much always, you'd micro-tweak the back four to all sit completely narrow and had a CM joining them too and had a better defense than any opponent across the shop (naturally on the attacking end you could tweak this as much that you'd score like 5+ goals on average a match always with the most average of players, making it all a bit pointless).

[Guest]

From my experience the effect is negligible because it's too easy to get max TF & keep it there without having to increase the amount of match prep above the lowest setting, another factor is that because match prep only takes place in the day or day & a half before a match there is no difference in having a week or two days between matches in terms of preparing for the next opponent which isn't a true reflection on real life.

Edit: I wouldn't bother comparing EA's approach in FIFA.

[Jakarooney]

On 8/5/2016 at 22:47, JustinJJJ said:

from 30-40 yards out, all of them top strikes from the same guy who has....3 for long shots. 

Proof?

 

[Jakarooney]

On 8/6/2016 at 15:36, JustinJJJ said:

a League 2 side managed to get some guy with 4 for finishing and 6 for pace, manage to go through about 6 of my players and score a hat-trick, all of which who did VERY little to stop him.

And this?

[KingCanary]

I stopped playing 16 and went back to 15 because I find the defending so distractingly bad. I don't actually think crossing is overpowered but defending is so off it makes it seem that way.

Full backs sit stupidly narrow and don't close down wingers or fullbacks quickly leading to easy crosses.

Centre backs and goalkeepers don't react to danger so balls are allowed to drift far further than they would be in real life without someone tracking them or a keeper coming out to claim them. 

Defenders don't seem to react to runs between them from strikers meaning that they are often left in acres of space at the far post.

It all adds up to a pretty unsatisfying game where you feel like you're waiting for the next back post tap in highlight rather than watching a game of football. Having gone back to 15 it is amazing to me how much more varied and fun the match engine is to play. The game has it flaws and frustrations sure, but this is the first time I've ever abandoned a version of FM.

[KingCanary]

Just now, Analog said:

I do feel pretty similar at this point, but at this point I'm not going to go back to FM15, even though I did consider it.

I did it about three months ago- I did fire up 16 a month or so ago thinking I'd give it another chance. However the first game I conceded a goal where my fullback left the winger in 10 yards of space and just before the cross my best centre back turned his back on the taker. It ended up with a striker tapping in at the far post with my centre back facing the wrong way. Never again.

[Jakarooney]

It's crazy how i'm not having any of these problems.....it's almost as if tactics influence the types of goals scored.

[ajw10]

Saying that you're not having ANY of these problems is about as believable as the guy who made out that a player scored 4 long rangers against him.

[roykela]

Tactics can definitely minimise the issue. But it does appear to be a problem with fullbacks sitting too narrowly.
Goes against me and in my favor, but some of the stuff seem to be fundamentally flawed.

I base that on more than 50 seasons with a few different clubs and tweaks to a tactic i would've used in real life as a coach.

All matches viewed in 3d comprehensive highlights. 

[Cougar2010]

I think what highlights you watch also play a part in your opinion.

 

If you take someone who watches on key they'll form the opinion that every cross from a fullback ends in a goal because thats all they see.  For myself & others who watch comprehensive or full matches we also see crosses from fullbacks that end in goals but we also see the many other crosses that drift out of play, get blocked, are cleared by defenders, connect with attackers but are off target/get saved/get blocked etc etc.

 

Yes it seems easier on this version to score via a cross as opposed to a through ball/long shot etc but that doesn't tell the full story given that people can still manage to concede a fairly low amount of goals.  Even last season for example my team finished just above the relegation zone but conceded marginally over one goal a game over the season.

[Lambo95]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

I think what highlights you watch also play a part in your opinion.

 

If you take someone who watches on key they'll form the opinion that every cross from a fullback ends in a goal because thats all they see.  For myself & others who watch comprehensive or full matches we also see crosses from fullbacks that end in goals but we also see the many other crosses that drift out of play, get blocked, are cleared by defenders, connect with attackers but are off target/get saved/get blocked etc etc.

 

Yes it seems easier on this version to score via a cross as opposed to a through ball/long shot etc but that doesn't tell the full story given that people can still manage to concede a fairly low amount of goals.  Even last season for example my team finished just above the relegation zone but conceded marginally over one goal a game over the season.

Yeah this is spot on. My winger often attempts 20+ crosses a game, which is way more than is realistic, yet very few of them reach any of my players

[enigmatic]

On 8/8/2016 at 23:40, MBarbaric said:

the thing is, defending is highly structured and isn't open to interpretation as attacking is where you have free roles, individual initiative and so on. in defensive phase it is exactly known what a player is supposed to do. and when i say player that means each player apart (maybe one or for more lazy teams, two). when coaching defence you don't want to coach one player, you have to coach whole team as a unit. it has quite exact rules and ideas that have to be adhered to if team wants to be somewhat succesfull.

But this is exactly what makes it difficult to get AI defences behaving properly. A defensive player positioning himself in the box has to balance (i) sticking to the prescribed team shape and following instructions (ii) identifying a player to mark if there is one in their vicinity and trying to stay tight and goal side of them (iii) try to be in position to intercept a pass/cross if it's aimed in the general area (iv) ensuring there are no large gaps in the middle for players to run into (v) keep the back four in a tight offside line, and consider stepping up, especially if it's an offside trap.

Most of these objectives conflict in most given situations (and this is a simple example where the defender doesn't also have the option of getting close enough to the player on the ball to challenge him.) Additionally, the defender's AI is influenced by a set of attributes that means he might not be especially good at judging one or more of the above criteria. And most of the times the AI makes the wrong decision it leads to a clear cut chance that definitely looks like the defender's fault

For comparison purposes, consider the AI for a striker, where if they make a suboptimal off the ball decision nine times out of ten you probably don't even see it on extended highlights and even a basic heuristic with no team coordination like "when the ball is in the final third get somewhere in front of the goal without straying offside; consider making a darting run away from a defender if they get tight" should be good enough to get in position for chances and "if there's a big gap in an onside position, probably created by a defender marking someone else, run into it" is really powerful. The only area where the defence can compensate is by having extra men (and fullbacks staying excessively narrow is part of that)

[Sunstrikuuu]

The last time I was active on this forum, I posted this walkthrough of a game between Sunderland and Arsenal in 16 with a brief digression to talk about a game between Burnley and Arsenal in 15.

[hoppo1982]

Seems as though the majority of people are having a similar issue.

 

Has anyone from SI been provided with evidence of the problem or has it been raised in the bugs section of the forum ?

 

No point in going around in circles talking about the problem rather than having it resolved.

[AFootballManager]

Just now, Analog said:

Using your wide players to mark opposition fullbacks helps a lot.

Unfortunately it does not work as properly as it should do as you still see opposition full backs not being marked tight enough and still get simple crosses in.  

[Tony Wright 747]

I am also one that is not having this problem at the moment, had loads of problems with it playing the demo, (at one stage I wasn't going to buy the game at all) but not with my current save.  I don't use special tactics to combat it either, the tactics I choose are based on the players i have picked, the team I am playing against and the opposition players and tactics. (I always adjust the tatics as the match unfolds).  I watch all my games in full and while I don't win every match, it is a work in progress and I am not looking for instant success but looking at the long term, but I can honestly say i am not experiencing the Crossing/defending issue.

[MBarbaric]

4 hours ago, enigmatic said:

But this is exactly what makes it difficult to get AI defences behaving properly. A defensive player positioning himself in the box has to balance (i) sticking to the prescribed team shape and following instructions (ii) identifying a player to mark if there is one in their vicinity and trying to stay tight and goal side of them (iii) try to be in position to intercept a pass/cross if it's aimed in the general area (iv) ensuring there are no large gaps in the middle for players to run into (v) keep the back four in a tight offside line, and consider stepping up, especially if it's an offside trap.

 

A defensive player positioning himself in the box has to balance (i) sticking to the prescribed team shape and following instructions (ii) identifying a player to mark if there is one in their vicinity and trying to stay tight and goal side of them

I)  in the box there is no more defensive shape. you man mark, end of story. 

II) this

 

(iii) try to be in position to intercept a pass/cross if it's aimed in the general area

This is what all players are thought and should be reasonably comfrotable with regardles of position. they should be able to positioning  their body and movement in regard to ball/opposition position

 

(iv) ensuring there are no large gaps in the middle for players to run into 

This is done as part of defensive unit training and usually includes defence and midfield, hence at least 8 players from a team

 

(v) keep the back four in a tight offside line, and consider stepping up, especially if it's an offside trap.

not really, it is the full back on the opposite side that controlls the off side trap and should be the one who calls for it since he sees the whole playing side. besides, defensive line doesn't need and mostly, doesn't even try to play off side trap. That happens usually when strikers are careless enough to fall for it. There is precise rule when the defensive line steps up (generally whenever the ball goas towards the opposition goal)-

[Cougar2010]

1 hour ago, AFootballManager said:

Unfortunately it does not work as properly as it should do as you still see opposition full backs not being marked tight enough and still get simple crosses in.  

Depends who you are marking them with.

If you are using your AMR/L or MR/L then chances are they are more attacking players with attacking orders therefore their defensive skills will be lower and they will be father forward as a result of attacking meaning they have a lot of recovery to do to get back into position then you are asking them to work more closing down a fullback.

[isignedupfornorealreason]

Personally I think the issue lies with the tucking in. It's not just the back four that does it though, wide players up top will do so as well. 

It might be a case of confirmation bias on my part, but I feel wingers are narrower now in the final third, when they should be slightly wider.

I've not had much fun with a back 5 in this season's edition, and the AI doesn't seem to have fun with it when I play them either, there's a wobblyness about them due to the space they give up at times. That said, a 4-1 defends reasonably well enough, I've had more frustration dealing with those cocktail games where things click for the opposition, heads drop on my part, and suddenly every shot flies into the top corner.

 

Those are absolute morale breakers for me! XD

[AFootballManager]

1 hour ago, Cougar2010 said:

Depends who you are marking them with.

If you are using your AMR/L or MR/L then chances are they are more attacking players with attacking orders therefore their defensive skills will be lower and they will be father forward as a result of attacking meaning they have a lot of recovery to do to get back into position then you are asking them to work more closing down a fullback.

Yes attacking players are more incapable of defending but what about wide players that are actually capable of putting in a shift? Players like Albrighton shouldn't be so incapable of tracking back when he meant to do so and this is where the problem lies at.

 

Overall, I think marking needs to be better looked at in terms of when should a player be marking? In what scenarios should a player be marking? etc.

Defending overall should be a serious priority in next years edition and more options should be available for the manager to make decisive decisions in crucial moments as well as focusing on improving player intelligence.

[AFootballManager]

6 hours ago, Analog said:

It actually can help if you set your fullbacks to close down less.  When the deeper overlaps happen toward the byline, it's usually because your FB has left his position to track the winger toward a more central position, and the opposition FB/WB then bombs on.  If you can delay that event, then you have a better chance of lowering the percentages against you.  

I've also experimented with using defensive wingers to try and get them to track back a little further.  You can set them to get further forward and shoot more often, etc., so that you don't lose as much of an attacking threat.  It's tough to get good marking though when you have a wide midfielder setup like an inside forward.  

The man marking isn't always required, but I find it necessary against certain teams playing 4-2-3-1 and 4-4-2.  It's really effective against teams with no wingers, and especially if you have a DM in that situation.

The fact that you have to adapt to the ME is calling for serious concern. Absolutely no manager should really have to do that.

[Cougar2010]

5 minutes ago, AFootballManager said:

The fact that you have to adapt to the ME is calling for serious concern. Absolutely no manager should really have to do that.

Its not really adapting to the ME as such, its using the options you are given to defend in the way you want.

[CityAndColour]

How it is portrayed graphically also adds to the feeling the overlap is difficult to stop, IMO.

Sometimes you'll see a full back start his overlap from 15-20 yards behind your ML/R, run past him and into open space, while the ML/R literally stands still on the spot, seemingly not even noticing it or making any attempt to track back. I assume this is meant to portray a less defensively-inclined winger but it looks ridiculous.

[hoppo1982]

Horizontal movement both in attack and defense has always been an issue in FM for me.

In attack lateral movement from someone in the AMR or AML positions into the "Number 10" position is very difficult to achieve. David Silva is someone who makes these movements a lot as per the picture.

In defense getting a player in the AMR / AML or the MR  / ML mpositions to "tuck in" when the ball is on the opposite side ala Simeone's atletico is  also very hard to master.

 

 

 

[AFootballManager]

11 hours ago, Cougar2010 said:

Its not really adapting to the ME as such, its using the options you are given to defend in the way you want.

Except you have to use PIs and TIs to counteract the ME's flaws no? 

[AFootballManager]

1 hour ago, CityAndColour said:

How it is portrayed graphically also adds to the feeling the overlap is difficult to stop, IMO.

Sometimes you'll see a full back start his overlap from 15-20 yards behind your ML/R, run past him and into open space, while the ML/R literally stands still on the spot, seemingly not even noticing it or making any attempt to track back. I assume this is meant to portray a less defensively-inclined winger but it looks ridiculous.

This is basically what I was talking about.

[Cougar2010]

Just now, AFootballManager said:

Except you have to use PIs and TIs to counteract the ME's flaws no? 

No you use PIs & TIs to modify the base settings of your tactic to hopefully get the players on the pitch to react/play in the way you want.

You need to stop thinking about potential weaknesses & flaws & concentrate on the opposition.

[AFootballManager]

5 minutes ago, Cougar2010 said:

No you use PIs & TIs to modify the base settings of your tactic to hopefully get the players on the pitch to react/play in the way you want.

You need to stop thinking about potential weaknesses & flaws & concentrate on the opposition.

You can't just not think about weaknesses and flaws when they have a impact on the game and exactly how you want to play and react to certain situations. It seems like the conversation is diverting from the original point made so I'll end it here.

[Danchinaski]

I've not been on this forum very long, but I've noticed a general dialogue which runs through a significant percentage of threads on here. It goes something like:

OP: "This game is rubbish, because [insert obvious flaw, probably crosses, occasionally something else]"

RESPONSE: "The game is not rubbish. You're just rubbish at playing it"

OP: "[insert screenshot to show stats highlighting original point by OP]"

RESPONSE: "That's tactical. Check the tactics forum"

This is actually pretty fair. When someone doesn't succeed on FM it is usually because they're not as good at the game as they thought they'd be. The thing is, I'm often finding myself in agreement with the observations made by the rage-poster regarding the flaws in the game, even if I strongly disagree with the sentiment and tone that goes with it (and for the most part agree that a lot of the problems are player-created). I usually try and keep my criticisms constructive and see little point in going online to rage about a 1-0 defeat in a semi-final or whatever, but even so this game is incredibly flawed and many of the 'ragers' do have points I can sympathise on many occasions. In my mind I have a personal 'checklist' of things I hope FM17 improves upon, and if that's done, then great, but if not, and the flaws which spoil my enjoyment of FM remain, then it will probably be my last. None of these problems on this 'checklist' are to do with either tactics or how I play the game.

[DP]

I've certainly seen only incremental changes in the last few years and some of the time things have got worse - which is unusual, it has to be said. 

My hope is that over the last few years SI have actually been focusing attention on completely overhauling certain aspects - including the match engine - and resources have been pushed in this area instead of more sticky plasters (hence why there were no ME changes at patch 3). It's clear the way the ME works needs fundamentally looking at and to achieve this all in a year is probably unrealistic.