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DieRothosen

Help with my defensive 3-5-2

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Hey, I'm currently using Napoli first season. I read Cleon's thread on counter attacking football using a 4-1-4-1 and decided to try my hand at something similar. However 6 games in I'm currently 1 win 2 draws and 3 losses placed 16th. The idea was to be a defensive team that allowed the opposition possession but also limited them to mainly longshots.

cAUeYXj.png

hmnRSI7.png

This is the formation I went for, the idea when choosing the forward roles was to have a striker who would occupy the CBs whilst his partner dropped deep looking for the ball, to make sure he wasn't isolated I chose a B2B and the CM(S) to try and ensure that even when the F9 drops deep that there are players making runs ahead of him. I initially had a trio of CMs same roles as the currently have and then a CM(A), but I felt the gap between the defenders and the midfield was being exposed. I tried to counter that with a BPD(X) to no avail so I switched to the DM(S). My idea was that whilst he'd support the attack by stepping into the midfield strata whilst the other 2 push forward and then in defence he slots back into the DM position.

When watching the match I saw that here's how the formation looks like when going into the attacking third.

5DmfDja.png

Mainly what I see is the ball being switched from flank to flank, the CMs and DM crowding around each other. I feel as if the ball being pinged from side to side is because of a lack op actual options in the center of the field due to the CMs and DM being on top of each other.

The formation becomes a sort of 5-1-2-2 when the opposition attack.

8diLNn8.png

One thing I've noted here is the CMs and DM seem to get dragged out to the wing chasing the ball, so maybe I should have close down less on them so the keep their shape a bit better. Crosses seem to get us, although that might be down to the midfielders following the ball out wide and leaving free runners into the box. Attacking wise, we are getting shots in and around the box but they're not easy chances and some are more hit and hope than I'd like. So goals are a problem for us.

Here is the team analysis from my last match vs Braga, it ended nil all and we didn't really have any chance of note during the game.

YFBQbNh.png

Braga's shots, mostly just outside the box, quite a few blocked which is good.

6R96udb.png

Our average position and shots for the game.

Thank you in advance for any help you can offer, it's probably down to poor role choices on my part. I thought I'd give defensive football a try as I'm really bored just going with my tried and tested 4-2-3-1 control. Also apologies for the formatting.

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I used to like the 352/532 business, in real life and back when I played the CM's. But as a Utd fan I've seen LvG's attempts at that formation with us fail and be sterile. Then in FM it becomes a struggle to get goals for one, two...find good roles that don't have the players trying to dribble their way through brick walls to lose possession when they really didn't have to, and three...defend and press properly without conceding way too much pitch real estate and suddenly be trying to fend off the alamo attack from deep inside your 6 yard box.

I know what you're saying about the CM's drifting out wide to press....and that's only having two in the CM strata. I often played 3 in the centre strata, so it was more understandable that they'd go off in search of the ball then! Options could be as you say telling them to close down less, could be telling them to hold position, could be choosing TI's be more disciplined and stick to positions. But also in some situations it could be ok to ask them to man mark their opposing CM's if the shape isn't too different.

But I would suggest bringing the DM-s into a midfield trio as a CM-D. The CM-D will go almost as deep as the DM when back in your final third. When around the half way line he'll be in a line with the others almost. I think this will provide better cover. One of the reasons also that the CM's currently go off in search of a good hacking down by the touchline is down to wingbacks dropping back into a back 5 when defending. As they usually don't engage the wide attacker till near the final third the CM's feel like they'd better do something about it. So instead of giving up so much space to the final third, perhaps it's better to engage the opposition a little higher up, more compact lines and with 3 CM's. Then set wide players amongst any others to always be closed down in opposition instructions.

This is the sort of thing I think I'd try:

bzYBhhp.png

TI's

QeYmt8U.png

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http://imgur.com/gallery/uh6O5

This is what I'm using at the moment and it is working great. The BWM is set to support but the PI's are the same a a defensive BWM. I just wanted to be able to tell him to take more risky passes. I play a BWMd if the player doesn't pass well or has poor vision

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http://imgur.com/gallery/uh6O5

This is what I'm using at the moment and it is working great. The BWM is set to support but the PI's are the same a a defensive BWM. I just wanted to be able to tell him to take more risky passes. I play a BWMd if the player doesn't pass well or has poor vision

Do your defensive wingers not lose the ball regularly trying to dribble it past every man and his dog even if there's a simple pass on 5 yards away?

How do you deal with teams that have their full backs bombing on?

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Hey, I'm currently using Napoli first season. I read Cleon's thread on counter attacking football using a 4-1-4-1 and decided to try my hand at something similar. However 6 games in I'm currently 1 win 2 draws and 3 losses placed 16th. The idea was to be a defensive team that allowed the opposition possession but also limited them to mainly longshots.

...

Thank you in advance for any help you can offer, it's probably down to poor role choices on my part. I thought I'd give defensive football a try as I'm really bored just going with my tried and tested 4-2-3-1 control. Also apologies for the formatting.

A screenshot of your roles, duties and instructions would help.

My general advance is I don't think the formation you've selected suits a proper "counter attacking" style like in Cleons guide. It has too many players deep in positions that will be hard to counter attack from even though your leaving two forward up field. I think I would prefer a 4141, 451, 4411, 442, 541, 4231 DM (with ML,MC,MR), 4132 etc that have more players in positions that can transition quickly into space hence counter attack.

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Do your defensive wingers not lose the ball regularly trying to dribble it past every man and his dog even if there's a simple pass on 5 yards away?

How do you deal with teams that have their full backs bombing on?

the whole setup plays pretty safe to be honest. They are more likely to not dribble than lay off an easy pass.

As for the the rest of the post; I'll get some pics to do the explaining when I get up tomorrow. There isn't too much for a full back or winger to cross to when there are so many bodies in the box anyway.

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Do your defensive wingers not lose the ball regularly trying to dribble it past every man and his dog even if there's a simple pass on 5 yards away?

How do you deal with teams that have their full backs bombing on?

The screenshots that matter:

T22DJOT.png

Here is the opposition's crosses from full backs and wingers. The wingers did play narrow but the full backs did supply a fair whack of support to them

pchqkFL.png

And here is where my DW's intercepted

S9Efnn5.png

Match stats. Note I had half the amount of crosses but the same percentage of completion.

XFQ7Jhz.png

Here is all the crosses I completed. 9 came from the right wing, 1 from Ayoze Perez and 4 from Lukaku. None came from the left wing. I am playing a right footer on the left wing delibrately to draw him a touch more central with the ball so this would have contributed but I brought on an either footer in the 70th minute and still no crosses from the left.

WbK76O9.png?1

Here is an attack from the wing. Note how the BWM and DW are providing pressure and the amount of players in the box against the lone striker. This was a counter so they had players out of position but still gives an idea of why this works.

Epjz1eJ.png

All opposition crosses. 17 intercepted

7cAEr5B.png

All their shots. Most of their shots came while under pressure so I am happy with that.

gzD2iXu.png

Here is the Assist Types from the last 50 matches. Conceded 10 from crosses and scored 9. 24 assists from the left wing which is why I use the right footer out there. Rather than cross he will provide a pass.

I think that should explain that the DW's are nowhere near as aggressive as you suggested.

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Good man.

For me every time I've played a 3 man defence it has just seemed pointless overall. Main reason being when those crosses come in it never mattered whether I had 3 defenders to one advancing attacker....the cross would somehow find it's way onto the head or foot of that one man and in at the near post past my 'disappointed' goalkeeper. And then with the waste of bodies behind the ball regarding the three centrebacks attacking options were in a sense limited.

It's one of the reasons I brewed up my interesting formation in the tactics thread using 2 halfbacks and 1 centreback...a sort of pseudo 3 man defence whereby two are used by the match engine properly as far as support is concerned if an attacking cul-de-sac is reached, and 1 remains deeper to sweep up as a false sweeper. Obviously there are dodgy moments but I persist with it.

Can see the DW's are doing a good amount of work pressing where they need to and coming narrow where necessary. I've started playing right footers on the left side and vice versa also in a bid to stop the amount of hopeful/hopeless crosses. I'm from the Barca school of thought whereby a cross against a park the bus team is generally a waste of possession. It's definitely stopped tons of crosses because they'd rather do an Ashley Young and turn back even under pressure.

Can you do a screenshot or let me know the stat of dribbles completed/times possession lost by the DW's? When I briefly used them they would lose possession too many times trying to dribble up the pitch even if the player used wasn't a good dribbler say <13.

Just a question: what are your thoughts on FM16 as compared to FM15? Are you appreciating and enjoying it a considerable amount more? Or could you say it feels much the same but with an updated database and a few small tweaks? If the money didn't matter I'd just buy it, but whilst I've got a game as good as FM15 I don't see the point in spending more money just to start again.

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Good man.

For me every time I've played a 3 man defence it has just seemed pointless overall. Main reason being when those crosses come in it never mattered whether I had 3 defenders to one advancing attacker....the cross would somehow find it's way onto the head or foot of that one man and in at the near post past my 'disappointed' goalkeeper. And then with the waste of bodies behind the ball regarding the three centrebacks attacking options were in a sense limited.

It's one of the reasons I brewed up my interesting formation in the tactics thread using 2 halfbacks and 1 centreback...a sort of pseudo 3 man defence whereby two are used by the match engine properly as far as support is concerned if an attacking cul-de-sac is reached, and 1 remains deeper to sweep up as a false sweeper. Obviously there are dodgy moments but I persist with it.

Can see the DW's are doing a good amount of work pressing where they need to and coming narrow where necessary. I've started playing right footers on the left side and vice versa also in a bid to stop the amount of hopeful/hopeless crosses. I'm from the Barca school of thought whereby a cross against a park the bus team is generally a waste of possession. It's definitely stopped tons of crosses because they'd rather do an Ashley Young and turn back even under pressure.

Can you do a screenshot or let me know the stat of dribbles completed/times possession lost by the DW's? When I briefly used them they would lose possession too many times trying to dribble up the pitch even if the player used wasn't a good dribbler say <13.

Just a question: what are your thoughts on FM16 as compared to FM15? Are you appreciating and enjoying it a considerable amount more? Or could you say it feels much the same but with an updated database and a few small tweaks? If the money didn't matter I'd just buy it, but whilst I've got a game as good as FM15 I don't see the point in spending more money just to start again.

I'll deal with the second part of the question first - the value of FM16 is what you value it at, not me. I buy every version regardless and to me each and every one is worth every dollar (including the lovely 'Australia Tax' we get on goods here - thanks Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, Nintendo, et al). I will be buying FM17 if/when it comes out as well. There really isn't a question for me.

As for the first bit; I'm at work so no screenshots yet but the way I am setup is very conservative. As I have shown with the crossing it is really minimal and I have the same percentage with 14 crosses that they had with 27. While they have 'dribble more' inherently set because of the conservative approach they won't cross unless there is a good need to. Often they will dribble to the byline and still pass inboard if a crossing option is not available. They are support players, not attacking so are less likely to take someone on as opposed to a regular winger.

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Good man.

For me every time I've played a 3 man defence it has just seemed pointless overall. Main reason being when those crosses come in it never mattered whether I had 3 defenders to one advancing attacker....the cross would somehow find it's way onto the head or foot of that one man and in at the near post past my 'disappointed' goalkeeper. And then with the waste of bodies behind the ball regarding the three centrebacks attacking options were in a sense limited.

It's one of the reasons I brewed up my interesting formation in the tactics thread using 2 halfbacks and 1 centreback...a sort of pseudo 3 man defence whereby two are used by the match engine properly as far as support is concerned if an attacking cul-de-sac is reached, and 1 remains deeper to sweep up as a false sweeper. Obviously there are dodgy moments but I persist with it.

Can see the DW's are doing a good amount of work pressing where they need to and coming narrow where necessary. I've started playing right footers on the left side and vice versa also in a bid to stop the amount of hopeful/hopeless crosses. I'm from the Barca school of thought whereby a cross against a park the bus team is generally a waste of possession. It's definitely stopped tons of crosses because they'd rather do an Ashley Young and turn back even under pressure.

Can you do a screenshot or let me know the stat of dribbles completed/times possession lost by the DW's? When I briefly used them they would lose possession too many times trying to dribble up the pitch even if the player used wasn't a good dribbler say <13.

Just a question: what are your thoughts on FM16 as compared to FM15? Are you appreciating and enjoying it a considerable amount more? Or could you say it feels much the same but with an updated database and a few small tweaks? If the money didn't matter I'd just buy it, but whilst I've got a game as good as FM15 I don't see the point in spending more money just to start again.

I'll deal with the second part of the question first - the value of FM16 is what you value it at, not me. I buy every version regardless and to me each and every one is worth every dollar (including the lovely 'Australia Tax' we get on goods here - thanks Adobe, Microsoft, Apple, Nintendo, et al). I will be buying FM17 if/when it comes out as well. There really isn't a question for me.

As for the first bit; I'm at work so no screenshots yet but the way I am setup is very conservative. As I have shown with the crossing it is really minimal and I have the same percentage with 14 crosses that they had with 27. While they have 'dribble more' inherently set because of the conservative approach they won't cross unless there is a good need to. Often they will dribble to the byline and still pass inboard if a crossing option is not available. They are support players, not attacking so are less likely to take someone on as opposed to a regular winger.

So here are the stats from my last game:

8Iyj8o8.png

14 dribbles from the right-footed Charlton on the right wing, 4 from the right-footed Brant on the left. 68 & 51 touches respectively

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BallHogging said:
Good man.

For me every time I've played a 3 man defence it has just seemed pointless overall. Main reason being when those crosses come in it never mattered whether I had 3 defenders to one advancing attacker....the cross would somehow find it's way onto the head or foot of that one man and in at the near post past my 'disappointed' goalkeeper. And then with the waste of bodies behind the ball regarding the three centrebacks attacking options were in a sense limited.

It's one of the reasons I brewed up my interesting formation in the tactics thread using 2 halfbacks and 1 centreback...a sort of pseudo 3 man defence whereby two are used by the match engine properly as far as support is concerned if an attacking cul-de-sac is reached, and 1 remains deeper to sweep up as a false sweeper. Obviously there are dodgy moments but I persist with it.

Can see the DW's are doing a good amount of work pressing where they need to and coming narrow where necessary. I've started playing right footers on the left side and vice versa also in a bid to stop the amount of hopeful/hopeless crosses. I'm from the Barca school of thought whereby a cross against a park the bus team is generally a waste of possession. It's definitely stopped tons of crosses because they'd rather do an Ashley Young and turn back even under pressure.

Can you do a screenshot or let me know the stat of dribbles completed/times possession lost by the DW's? When I briefly used them they would lose possession too many times trying to dribble up the pitch even if the player used wasn't a good dribbler say <13.

Just a question: what are your thoughts on FM16 as compared to FM15? Are you appreciating and enjoying it a considerable amount more? Or could you say it feels much the same but with an updated database and a few small tweaks? If the money didn't matter I'd just buy it, but whilst I've got a game as good as FM15 I don't see the point in spending more money just to start again.

 
 
 
 

I'm playing a 3 man defence with Bologna which has no full backs or wing backs. It took me a while to stop conceding so much from crosses, but this setup has worked for me:

2e39w8n.jpg

1sfguu.jpg

The two outside CD's are on stopper duty and the middle CD is on Cover with the PI 'Close Down Less', which limits him stepping up as often, although he still will at times. This is something I just have to live with.

With this, I was still conceding too much from crosses. The major change I made, only conceding 1 goal from crosses in the last 30 matches, was to put the PI of 'Mark Tighter' on the wingers. The wingers now stick closer to any opposition wingers or inside forwards.

2usbknl.jpg

When a winger or marauding FB or WB gets down my flanks, this is what happens:

307vr7p.jpg

My no. 15 (winger) and 13 (CD stopper) immediately go to close him down. If he gets the cross into the box, fine, there is coverage. By the time he hits the cross, I have 5 men in the box against 2. On this occasion, the cross is successfully blocked at the expense of a corner. This is one of the usual outcomes. The others are; the cross is successfully defended and cleared, or the cross is delivered, but due to the high pressure on the crosser and the difficulty in picking someone out, the cross is of insufficient quality to cause any danger.

I had worried that the centre may be more compromised with this setup but I've only conceded 3 goals to through balls over this period. The one thing I'm not too happy with is the amount of goals I'm scoring. Only 24 in the 30 matches. On the flip side I've conceded only 9, so plus 15 which gives me the second best goal difference in the league. Still, I'd like to be scoring more and this is my next goal - to score more goals.

I'm in my 3rd season now with Bologna. First was a real struggle before I made these changes and I narrowly avoided relegation. In my second season I implemented the 'Tighter Marking' for the wingers 10 games before the season end, and went on a 10 game unbeaten run, winning 7 of these and finished 6th narrowing missing out on a Europa cup qualifying spot. Half way through my current season, I'm in 3rd spot.

Anyway, hope this helps or gives you some ideas for your own setup.

Edited by Tempest1967

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